Camera for Newspapers. Do they Exist. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Camera for Newspapers. Do they Exist. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drath'ri
11-14-05, 08:45 PM Are thier pictures in the Newspapers and if so... How to they get there? and could anyone think of an Eberron equivalent to a camera?

Thanks in advance

any ideas are welcome. My Master Inquisitor PC wants to get a camera or its equivalent and I was seeing how everyone else would be able to do it.
Edymnion
11-14-05, 09:12 PM Same way we had pictures in papers before the invention of the camera.
Talented sketch artists that draw the scenes, and those get transferred over to the papers through whatever printing means they have.
Bluebrush
11-14-05, 09:35 PM I once considered having a Ghaldaar goblin artificer inventing the "Darguunotype" process for photography, allowing images from across the world of places and people sitting very still.

Then something distracted me and I forgot about it.
Chaotix42
11-14-05, 09:56 PM I once considered having a Ghaldaar goblin artificer inventing the "Darguunotype" process for photography, allowing images from across the world of places and people sitting very still.

Then something distracted me and I forgot about it.

Give this man a :cookie:
zambuka
11-14-05, 10:35 PM Same way we had pictures in papers before the invention of the camera.
Talented sketch artists that draw the scenes, and those get transferred over to the papers through whatever printing means they have.

Lithography is the process you want for printing.

There are various method. Older ones used porus stone and oil based inks and waxes as the printing block.

Later versions use photolithography. A photreactive layer covered a metal plate that was then washed in acid.

Another method uses oil based inks or waxes to transfer the image onto a metal plate and then wash them with acid. This is the method I picture Eberron printing presses using.

"real" photography didn't occur until 1834 when Henry Talbot worked with paper based negatives and direct transfer to create positive images. It wasn't until the 1880s before halftoning was used to allow a print of a photo in a newspaper. This was done by Eastman who later joined up with Kodak to create the Kodak-Eastman company.

Eberron probably wouldn't have this chemical based "photography" but they would likely have something similar enough based on the silent image spell. Unfortunately this method would be far too expensive for use with mass printing and probably is only used in a few cases as novelties, it is probably at the stage Talbot was in when he presented his first images to the world.

But you can be certain the artificers of house Sivis are looking for ways to make use of this technology. Although progress would be slow as many wouldn't really see a need or use for such imagery when they already have access to illusion spells, illusiory script and permanent image for the wealthier. Basically the thought of applying an illusion spell to paper and then somehow mass printing that illusion seems like a waste of time and resources.

Linky (http://www.photo.net/history/timeline) gives a good brief history of photography.
Beleriphon
11-14-05, 11:56 PM Don't forget the wonderful world of woodcuts, these lovely pieces of archaic art were originally used for printing presses. You cut a block of wood with the image you want, do the layout on the press, roll with ink and blammo printed pages.
Just another user
11-15-05, 03:34 AM I suppose a magic item based on the Silent image spell could be possible, that rather than create images store them (maybe in a little dragonshard), then the images could be reproduced on paper magically or by an artist.(and kept in the archives for future reference ("hey, look at that 80 years old shardpic of king Kaius I, sure the resemblance with Kaius III is uncanny")

It should be quite expensive (I'm thinking a 50 charges, spell completion wondrous item usable by bards, probably unslotted, something around 1500-2000 gp I guess). The newspaper give one to their best reporters and make them pay for every charge used but they pay handsomely for good pictures so if the reporter don't waste charges usually he can come out with a good gain.

BTW I like shardpic, but if someone can think of a better name be welcome.
MarkB
11-15-05, 04:23 AM I'd allow Prestidigitation to be used to create an accurate pencil or charcoal sketch of a viewed or strongly-visualised scene. You'd still need some of the above-mentioned methods to transform that sketch into something printable.
Kalanth
11-15-05, 04:30 AM I realize its kinda campy, but in a world based around the merging of magic into everyday life, why not the kinds of pictures one sees in the papers and posters of the Harry Potter universe? Animated pictures that cycle a small chunk of time over and over, that is what I would imagine the papers to resemble, at least.
Thramzorean
11-15-05, 04:59 AM I'd allow Prestidigitation to be used to create an accurate pencil or charcoal sketch of a viewed or strongly-visualised scene. You'd still need some of the above-mentioned methods to transform that sketch into something printable.
Might be tempted to throw in a craft check here though as suitable to determine quality/accuracy.
boytbpc
11-15-05, 05:38 AM Maybe I missed it, but how are the newspapers printed? Does Eberron have a moveable-type printing press? If so, are books massed produced? If not, how are the newpapers made?

Boytbpc
Bluebrush
11-15-05, 07:20 AM Hold on a second, wasn't there an issue of dragon recently which had an article on magic item which replicated modern items, such as the CD plater, PDA and camera-o-scope?
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz
11-15-05, 07:30 AM Photo Image
0-lv Spell
Illusion
Range: Line of Sight
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: Free Action
Components: V, S, M

This spell creates an image from the casters point of view on a blank piece of paper. The image is motionless and can only be taken within the casters line of sight (i.e. if the target is far away the image will be pictured far away). In no form or fashion can this spell confir magic from the image onto the recipient.
The component for this spell is a special red piece of parchment that cost 1 gp.

Copier
0-lv Spell
Transmutation (?)
Range: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: Standard Action
Components: V, S, M
When cast on a Photo Image this spell can create multiple copies. The copies are not nearly as good as the original and are only in black & white. Each casting can creates up to 10 copies per caster level (100 copies max) of the original image.
The material component of this spell is a bleach piece of paper.
Goatdance
11-15-05, 08:23 AM For Eberron as written, as far as I can see:

1 - Copying or printing technology exists. Thousands of copies of the newspapers get distributed, and as I'm guessing they're not made by hordes of goblin scribes, something makes them. Either a technological printing press, or (more likely) a magical device.

I'd imagine that the device is House Sivis and dragonshard based, and thus the newspapers all rely on house Sivis presses to get the papers out.

2 - Photography. I don't think this exists, as the section on travelling papers says that a written description is usual, with an artist's portrait in the case of richer travellers. If photography was available, it would have been used instead.

On the other hand, if you think it's fun, go for it. A prototype camera being made by an artificer makes sense, certainly (based on Silent Image and possibly Clairvoyance). I'd make it wand-like, so you get 50 images out of the thing (or 2/day for 'eternal cameras'), so they'd be quite rare and valuable.
Durmald
11-15-05, 10:52 AM I agree with Goatdance, some kind of printing technology exist, maybe a magic device to make all the copies (image a lot of warforged arms with pens working all night, just joking ;) ).

In my game I described a magic item to make copies, a wood board of a book size that inscribes or produces in a page what is in the mind of the user, it can produce text or images, the quality of the images or the text is based in the mental clarity of the user (use concentration, a 25 is almost like a photograph or an articulated text), also if you have a written page you can copy it using this magic item. Is really expensive (like 50 gp / page) and can only produce few pages (10 to 30) so is used for important matters.

Quite useful in the watch to take description of criminals or for spies to copy important documents.
MrFilthyIke
11-15-05, 04:34 PM You forget the obvious...a black box with a imp bound inside...with an easel and paint. :D

Why not?! MoE gave up ambulatory luggage... ;)
The Brat Prince
11-15-05, 04:58 PM You forget the obvious...a black box with a imp bound inside...with an easel and paint. :D

Why not?! MoE gave up ambulatory luggage... ;)

Ah yes, but is it nigh-indestructible sentient ambulatory luggage with a penchant for eating people?
Edymnion
11-15-05, 05:12 PM Hold on a second, wasn't there an issue of dragon recently which had an article on magic item which replicated modern items, such as the CD plater, PDA and camera-o-scope?And people wonder why I don't like Dragon...
"Yeah, hey, here's how you can metagame to have all of your high tech little fantasies, and your DM can't say anything about it because we're officially printing it, so it must be okay!

:nonono:

I don't care if Gary Freaking Gygax himself comes to my house and says its okay, any player that tries to make a PDA in any D&D game I run is going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with the PHB, then the DMG, and then told to go play d20 Modern.
zambuka
11-15-05, 06:15 PM Linky (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7224861) for my take on a printing press. Simply put it is a moveable type press with a few magical enhancements to speed up the typesetting process.
zambuka
11-15-05, 06:21 PM And people wonder why I don't like Dragon...
"Yeah, hey, here's how you can metagame to have all of your high tech little fantasies, and your DM can't say anything about it because we're officially printing it, so it must be okay!

:nonono:

I don't care if Gary Freaking Gygax himself comes to my house and says its okay, any player that tries to make a PDA in any D&D game I run is going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with the PHB, then the DMG, and then told to go play d20 Modern.
Meh.. I stopped buying it not long after Wizards took over DnD. They did a great job with the game but I gotta say the glossy light-content format of the magazine, once they got their hands on it, really disappointed me.

So total agreement with your sentiments over that.
MrFilthyIke
11-15-05, 09:06 PM Ah yes, but is it nigh-indestructible sentient ambulatory luggage with a penchant for eating people?

It could with the right Improved Homonculi choices. :P
The Brat Prince
11-16-05, 04:43 AM It could with the right Improved Homonculi choices. :P

I may have to make an Artificer named <something> ir'Zweiblumen just to have a homunculus named The Luggage...

*evil laugh*

Those of you who have no idea what i'm talking about, read more Pratchett
MysticTheurge
11-16-05, 09:29 AM Didn't MoE have an image capture device, for Heirs with the Mark of Shadow I recall. They certainly could be your newspaper "photographers."
darkthought
11-16-05, 09:43 AM Didn't MoE have an image capture device, for Heirs with the Mark of Shadow I recall. They certainly could be your newspaper "photographers."

I think that was more "video" than stills. I could see changing it around a little bit to use gnome mark and then do stills only... with a vastly reduced GP cost. :)
Clone547
11-16-05, 09:59 AM Dragon mag had the Memory Crystal in issue 327. Kind of a one use poloroid. With a little twicking, an imaginitve player or DM should be able to make an item that can store more than one image. I gave a player an item similer to this, as an aid for her Bloodhound class. It was a small 4 inch cube that made a 6 to 12 inch silent image of a selected person apper above it. It could hold about 20 diffrent images of people at a time, and to get an image, she had to hold the box in her hand and concentrate on the person for 3 rounds, and the target had to be in line of sight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drath'ri 11-14-05, 08:45 PM	Are thier pictures in the Newspapers and if so... How to they get there? and could anyone think of an Eberron equivalent to a camera? Thanks in advance any ideas are welcome. My Master Inquisitor PC wants to get a camera or its equivalent and I was seeing how everyone else would be able to do it.
Edymnion 11-14-05, 09:12 PM	Same way we had pictures in papers before the invention of the camera. Talented sketch artists that draw the scenes, and those get transferred over to the papers through whatever printing means they have.
Bluebrush 11-14-05, 09:35 PM	I once considered having a Ghaldaar goblin artificer inventing the "Darguunotype" process for photography, allowing images from across the world of places and people sitting very still. Then something distracted me and I forgot about it.
Chaotix42 11-14-05, 09:56 PM	I once considered having a Ghaldaar goblin artificer inventing the "Darguunotype" process for photography, allowing images from across the world of places and people sitting very still. Then something distracted me and I forgot about it. Give this man a :cookie:
zambuka 11-14-05, 10:35 PM	Same way we had pictures in papers before the invention of the camera. Talented sketch artists that draw the scenes, and those get transferred over to the papers through whatever printing means they have. Lithography is the process you want for printing. There are various method. Older ones used porus stone and oil based inks and waxes as the printing block. Later versions use photolithography. A photreactive layer covered a metal plate that was then washed in acid. Another method uses oil based inks or waxes to transfer the image onto a metal plate and then wash them with acid. This is the method I picture Eberron printing presses using. "real" photography didn't occur until 1834 when Henry Talbot worked with paper based negatives and direct transfer to create positive images. It wasn't until the 1880s before halftoning was used to allow a print of a photo in a newspaper. This was done by Eastman who later joined up with Kodak to create the Kodak-Eastman company. Eberron probably wouldn't have this chemical based "photography" but they would likely have something similar enough based on the silent image spell. Unfortunately this method would be far too expensive for use with mass printing and probably is only used in a few cases as novelties, it is probably at the stage Talbot was in when he presented his first images to the world. But you can be certain the artificers of house Sivis are looking for ways to make use of this technology. Although progress would be slow as many wouldn't really see a need or use for such imagery when they already have access to illusion spells, illusiory script and permanent image for the wealthier. Basically the thought of applying an illusion spell to paper and then somehow mass printing that illusion seems like a waste of time and resources. Linky (http://www.photo.net/history/timeline) gives a good brief history of photography.
Beleriphon 11-14-05, 11:56 PM	Don't forget the wonderful world of woodcuts, these lovely pieces of archaic art were originally used for printing presses. You cut a block of wood with the image you want, do the layout on the press, roll with ink and blammo printed pages.
Just another user 11-15-05, 03:34 AM	I suppose a magic item based on the Silent image spell could be possible, that rather than create images store them (maybe in a little dragonshard), then the images could be reproduced on paper magically or by an artist.(and kept in the archives for future reference ("hey, look at that 80 years old shardpic of king Kaius I, sure the resemblance with Kaius III is uncanny") It should be quite expensive (I'm thinking a 50 charges, spell completion wondrous item usable by bards, probably unslotted, something around 1500-2000 gp I guess). The newspaper give one to their best reporters and make them pay for every charge used but they pay handsomely for good pictures so if the reporter don't waste charges usually he can come out with a good gain. BTW I like shardpic, but if someone can think of a better name be welcome.
MarkB 11-15-05, 04:23 AM	I'd allow Prestidigitation to be used to create an accurate pencil or charcoal sketch of a viewed or strongly-visualised scene. You'd still need some of the above-mentioned methods to transform that sketch into something printable.
Kalanth 11-15-05, 04:30 AM	I realize its kinda campy, but in a world based around the merging of magic into everyday life, why not the kinds of pictures one sees in the papers and posters of the Harry Potter universe? Animated pictures that cycle a small chunk of time over and over, that is what I would imagine the papers to resemble, at least.
Thramzorean 11-15-05, 04:59 AM	I'd allow Prestidigitation to be used to create an accurate pencil or charcoal sketch of a viewed or strongly-visualised scene. You'd still need some of the above-mentioned methods to transform that sketch into something printable. Might be tempted to throw in a craft check here though as suitable to determine quality/accuracy.
boytbpc 11-15-05, 05:38 AM	Maybe I missed it, but how are the newspapers printed? Does Eberron have a moveable-type printing press? If so, are books massed produced? If not, how are the newpapers made? Boytbpc
Bluebrush 11-15-05, 07:20 AM	Hold on a second, wasn't there an issue of dragon recently which had an article on magic item which replicated modern items, such as the CD plater, PDA and camera-o-scope?
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 11-15-05, 07:30 AM	Photo Image 0-lv Spell Illusion Range: Line of Sight Duration: Permanent Casting Time: Free Action Components: V, S, M This spell creates an image from the casters point of view on a blank piece of paper. The image is motionless and can only be taken within the casters line of sight (i.e. if the target is far away the image will be pictured far away). In no form or fashion can this spell confir magic from the image onto the recipient. The component for this spell is a special red piece of parchment that cost 1 gp. Copier 0-lv Spell Transmutation (?) Range: Touch Duration: Permanent Casting Time: Standard Action Components: V, S, M When cast on a Photo Image this spell can create multiple copies. The copies are not nearly as good as the original and are only in black & white. Each casting can creates up to 10 copies per caster level (100 copies max) of the original image. The material component of this spell is a bleach piece of paper.
Goatdance 11-15-05, 08:23 AM	For Eberron as written, as far as I can see: 1 - Copying or printing technology exists. Thousands of copies of the newspapers get distributed, and as I'm guessing they're not made by hordes of goblin scribes, something makes them. Either a technological printing press, or (more likely) a magical device. I'd imagine that the device is House Sivis and dragonshard based, and thus the newspapers all rely on house Sivis presses to get the papers out. 2 - Photography. I don't think this exists, as the section on travelling papers says that a written description is usual, with an artist's portrait in the case of richer travellers. If photography was available, it would have been used instead. On the other hand, if you think it's fun, go for it. A prototype camera being made by an artificer makes sense, certainly (based on Silent Image and possibly Clairvoyance). I'd make it wand-like, so you get 50 images out of the thing (or 2/day for 'eternal cameras'), so they'd be quite rare and valuable.
Durmald 11-15-05, 10:52 AM	I agree with Goatdance, some kind of printing technology exist, maybe a magic device to make all the copies (image a lot of warforged arms with pens working all night, just joking ;) ). In my game I described a magic item to make copies, a wood board of a book size that inscribes or produces in a page what is in the mind of the user, it can produce text or images, the quality of the images or the text is based in the mental clarity of the user (use concentration, a 25 is almost like a photograph or an articulated text), also if you have a written page you can copy it using this magic item. Is really expensive (like 50 gp / page) and can only produce few pages (10 to 30) so is used for important matters. Quite useful in the watch to take description of criminals or for spies to copy important documents.
MrFilthyIke 11-15-05, 04:34 PM	You forget the obvious...a black box with a imp bound inside...with an easel and paint. :D Why not?! MoE gave up ambulatory luggage... ;)
The Brat Prince 11-15-05, 04:58 PM	You forget the obvious...a black box with a imp bound inside...with an easel and paint. :D Why not?! MoE gave up ambulatory luggage... ;) Ah yes, but is it nigh-indestructible sentient ambulatory luggage with a penchant for eating people?
Edymnion 11-15-05, 05:12 PM	Hold on a second, wasn't there an issue of dragon recently which had an article on magic item which replicated modern items, such as the CD plater, PDA and camera-o-scope?And people wonder why I don't like Dragon... "Yeah, hey, here's how you can metagame to have all of your high tech little fantasies, and your DM can't say anything about it because we're officially printing it, so it must be okay! :nonono: I don't care if Gary Freaking Gygax himself comes to my house and says its okay, any player that tries to make a PDA in any D&D game I run is going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with the PHB, then the DMG, and then told to go play d20 Modern.
zambuka 11-15-05, 06:15 PM	Linky (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7224861) for my take on a printing press. Simply put it is a moveable type press with a few magical enhancements to speed up the typesetting process.
zambuka 11-15-05, 06:21 PM	And people wonder why I don't like Dragon... "Yeah, hey, here's how you can metagame to have all of your high tech little fantasies, and your DM can't say anything about it because we're officially printing it, so it must be okay! :nonono: I don't care if Gary Freaking Gygax himself comes to my house and says its okay, any player that tries to make a PDA in any D&D game I run is going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with the PHB, then the DMG, and then told to go play d20 Modern. Meh.. I stopped buying it not long after Wizards took over DnD. They did a great job with the game but I gotta say the glossy light-content format of the magazine, once they got their hands on it, really disappointed me. So total agreement with your sentiments over that.
MrFilthyIke 11-15-05, 09:06 PM	Ah yes, but is it nigh-indestructible sentient ambulatory luggage with a penchant for eating people? It could with the right Improved Homonculi choices. :P
The Brat Prince 11-16-05, 04:43 AM	It could with the right Improved Homonculi choices. :P I may have to make an Artificer named <something> ir'Zweiblumen just to have a homunculus named The Luggage... evil laugh Those of you who have no idea what i'm talking about, read more Pratchett
MysticTheurge 11-16-05, 09:29 AM	Didn't MoE have an image capture device, for Heirs with the Mark of Shadow I recall. They certainly could be your newspaper "photographers."
darkthought 11-16-05, 09:43 AM	Didn't MoE have an image capture device, for Heirs with the Mark of Shadow I recall. They certainly could be your newspaper "photographers." I think that was more "video" than stills. I could see changing it around a little bit to use gnome mark and then do stills only... with a vastly reduced GP cost. :)
Clone547 11-16-05, 09:59 AM	Dragon mag had the Memory Crystal in issue 327. Kind of a one use poloroid. With a little twicking, an imaginitve player or DM should be able to make an item that can store more than one image. I gave a player an item similer to this, as an aid for her Bloodhound class. It was a small 4 inch cube that made a 6 to 12 inch silent image of a selected person apper above it. It could hold about 20 diffrent images of people at a time, and to get an image, she had to hold the box in her hand and concentrate on the person for 3 rounds, and the target had to be in line of sight.