Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Benny BBQ 11-08-05, 12:44 AM	Hi everyone! Listen, I'm sorry to ask this as it might already have been asked in the past, but I bought the Eberron Campaign Setting about two months ago and I have notice that I got a section repeated twice in it... yes, that's right: in the chapter about Life in Eberron, I basically am missing 17 pages! My chapter starts with: "the two western nations are relatively..." with a map of Karrnath gracing the lower half of the page (that is actually supposed to be page 176 of the book...). I find it pretty odd that my book, not only is missing pages, but also has doubles (oh yeah, I've got two sets of pages 178 to 192!). Now! I've been wondering if any of you guys had had another similar experience in the past, and if there would be, according to you, a way to get this fixed (say... at my local hobby store...). Thanks to anyone who'll answer this... Peace!
Galahad_Knight 11-08-05, 01:13 AM	It sucks that you got a bad book, but the answer seems like a no brainer to me. Go back to where you got it (preferably with a receipt), inform them of your defective book and ask for a new one. Of course, since you want two MONTHS without noticing the bad chapter, you might be pas tthe return policy. If they don't give you a new one, THEN you contact WOTC *customer service* and see if they will replace it. Nobody on the message boards can do anything for you. We're all players here. The only WOTC employees who will hear you are forum moderators, and all they can do is tell you to contact customer service. Failing that, go onto ebay and sell it "RARE!!1! misprented Eberron book!!11!! L@@K!!! dnd, magic the gathering, satanic literature" Don't forget to mispell things, use all caps and obnoxious colors, never mention your shipping price, and include a grainy picture of the cover of the book only. You'll fit right in.
MarkB 11-08-05, 04:48 AM	It's not uncommon for printing/binding errors like this to crop up in a large print run. As a defective product, you should have no trouble getting it replaced by the retailer, even if it's outside their normal guarantee terms - otherwise speak directly to Wizards of the Coast.
Tek 11-08-05, 05:02 AM	We're all players here. Hey now, don't get me mixed in with -that- crowd! I'm a DM!
Sieylianna 11-08-05, 07:20 AM	Hi everyone! Listen, I'm sorry to ask this as it might already have been asked in the past, but I bought the Eberron Campaign Setting about two months ago and I have notice that I got a section repeated twice in it... yes, that's right: in the chapter about Life in Eberron, I basically am missing 17 pages! My chapter starts with: "the two western nations are relatively..." with a map of Karrnath gracing the lower half of the page (that is actually supposed to be page 176 of the book...). I find it pretty odd that my book, not only is missing pages, but also has doubles (oh yeah, I've got two sets of pages 178 to 192!). I've run into it in the past. Books are bound in 16 page sections and sometimes you don't get the right section. The retailer should replace it, if not contact customer service and they will replace it. Ed
Jagermeister 11-08-05, 09:18 AM	Heh, anyone else remember how something similar to this happened in the first printing? To echo what's been said, yeah, just return it to your retailer and indicate the defect. Should be replaced for you easily enough.
The White Sorcerer 11-08-05, 10:34 AM	Of course, since you want two MONTHS without noticing the bad chapter, you might be pas the return policy. Heh, return policy... Here in fair Finland, you can return something defective within six months of purchase, the store's return policy be damned.
MrFilthyIke 11-08-05, 11:09 AM	Heh, return policy... Here in fair Finland, you can return something defective within six months of purchase, the store's return policy be damned. Darn you, and your progressive European ways!! ;)
Urko 11-08-05, 12:22 PM	Heh, anyone else remember how something similar to this happened in the first printing? Vividly. In December 2003 I was totally indifferent to Eberron, but began reading the preview articles and hanging out on the discussion boards. By Feb or March 2004 I was a drooling fanatic. Cut to June 18. The Big Day (for those of us living outside of Finland, anyway). You better believe I was at my FLGS to pick up my copy (already reserved two months previously) as soon as humanly possible. On the achingly long drive home (about ten minutes) I resolutely resisted peeking inside to savor the anticipation. Finally, I stretched out on the couch to really dig in. I was going to read it cover to cover, but my excitement was too much, so I had to flip through it to get an idea of what was there. And my world came crashing to an end. A big swathe of pages were duplicates of the ones before, overwriting a large section of the book. For a moment I could barely see. I felt dizziness, heart palpatations, shortness of breath. I stepped outside and screamed to the heavens, "WHHHYYYY!!! CURSE YOU, OH CRUEL FATES!!! HOW COULD THIS APOCALYPTIC TRAGEDY HAVE BEFALLEN ME?!?" Then I called my FLGS. Yes, they had more copies. Yes, there were copies that were not messed up. Yes, I could exchange mine. Twenty minutes later peacefullness and light were restored to the universe. Failing that, go onto ebay and sell it "RARE!!1! misprented Eberron book!!11!! L@@K!!! dnd, magic the gathering, satanic literature" Don't forget to mispell things, use all caps and obnoxious colors, never mention your shipping price, and include a grainy picture of the cover of the book only. You'll fit right in. D'oh! Why didn't I think of that? Why, a mint double-over printed ECS is probably worth millions to the right collector!
WolfHati 11-08-05, 12:46 PM	Namely a collector in a country that has had such a high inflation that "millions" is worth about 10 cents.
Galahad_Knight 11-08-05, 06:34 PM	Heh, return policy... Here in fair Finland, you can return something defective within six months of purchase, the store's return policy be damned. In America most retailers assume that if you didn't notice the defect in the first thirty to ninety days (depending on the store) you either broke it yourself or are too stupid to deserve your money back ;-P An excerpt from an average covnersation I have with a customer on any given day. "My drill is broken, I need you to replace it." "How long have you had it?" "About two years." "Well, our return policy isn only ninety days, and the thing only has a one0year warranty to begin with." "But it was broken since the day I bought it!" "Then you should have returned it back then." Seriously though, if it;s defective, the store should take it back. However, as far as I know stores are free to set their own return policies. If the store says "No returns under any circumstances" then that's their right, likewise if they say you only have a week, two weeks, a month, etc to return a product. Likewise, if you don;t hve a receipt proving that you bought it from them they have no obligation to take it back. However, the*manufacturer* (or, in this case, publisher), is obliged to replace clearly defective products. They're just not obliged to be quick about it. So try the hobby shop first. If they refuse to take it back, contact WoTC customer service and see wht they can do.
Edymnion 11-08-05, 07:01 PM	Darn you, and your progressive European ways!! ;)Actually, as a small business owner, I can tell you that a manditory return policy is a *BAD* thing! We own a costume store. People inevitably try to buy a costume, wear it to their party or whatever, then attempt to bring it back for a refund saying they didn't get to use it (when its quite obvious just by looking at it that they did). Thanks to there not being any law saying we have to take anything back, we can tell them to hit the curb with their lying selves. I can tell you right now that if a law were passed saying we *HAD* to give people their money back, no matter what, then we would close our doors and hang up the hat, because there are too many *******s that try to abuse the system to make it worth it for those that are genuinely trying to get help.
stembolt 11-08-05, 07:56 PM	Darn you, and your progressive European ways!! Yeah we have that in America too. Manufacturing defects should in fact be covered for a year on any product no matter who made it (I’m in manufacturing. Actually in general US manufactures are much more responsible than European ones for defective products). And for the people who argue otherwise the store was supposed to catch the defect in the first place. Except that generally they just opt to replace returns instead of inspecting each product. The store is supposedly selling good products in the first place. If books are selling poorly do you put the dust jackets of popular sellers on them?
Galahad_Knight 11-08-05, 08:21 PM	It's the manufacturer's responsibility to replace products that they don't manufacture properly, not the vendor's. The store doesn't absorb the loss for a badly manufactured product, nor should they. When a store takes back a poorly manufactured product for a customer, they send it back to the manufacturer themselves and get ther product replaced or refunded to the store. Telling the customer "Sure, give me the bad one and I'll get you a new one" is a courtesy, not an obligation. For example, at Sears our Craftsman power tools usually come with a 1 year manufacturer's defect warranty. However, our return policy is only 90 days. If you come to us with a defective product older than 90 days, our *store* is under no obligation whatsoever to take it back (and we won't unless you whine at a manager enough that he does it just to get you out of his face). What we will do is tell you to contact our parts and service center to get it serviced or replaced. ae goes for any non-craftsman power tool you buy from us, by the way. After the return period is elapsed, we direct you to parts and service. It's out of the store's hands. A lot of companies won't even do that. If you get a bad product and it's past the return period they will just tell you to contact the manufacturer. We can't, and don't open up every power drill in the store and test them before selling them. Testing products to ensure proper manufacture is the job of the manufacturer, NOT the seller. Likewise, it's not the game store's job to personally read every book to ensure that there's no bad binding. However, if a store *knows* a product is faulty and sells it anyway, that can constitute fraud. Your whole dust jacket analogy is only aplicable if a store knows for a fact that the product is bad and, for whatever reason, decides to sell it rather than return it to the vendor.
darkness ninja of light 11-08-05, 10:18 PM	I wish our store had a stricter returns policy. I work at a children's (newborn to seven year old) clothing store and we don't have a time limit on returns. So we get some of the most disgusting things returned back to use because we aren't allowed to say "That's foul. You're an idiot for trying to return this." Considering most of the clothes only fit the baby for a couple of weeks, people do have a habit of returning things we can't resell (since they no longer need their well-used clothes, they go and get their money back). Some lady once returned a single pair of white lacy tights saying that as soon as her daughter wore them they fell apart. Sure enough there were large gaping holes in them. They were also incredibly dirty on the bottom as if the girl had been walking in the dirt the whole day she had this "defective pair". She didn't even bring back the original packaging. Just brought in a pair of tights. She got her $3 back (they were already discount). Hooray. We also occasionally get used underwear back. Ew. In fact, a lot of times people just decide to let their kids puke/drool on the toys and clothes while their shopping to keep them occupied (never to actually BUY them afterwards). *sigh* I've had books and such completely fall apart on me before (not D&D books). I got a replacement rather easily just asking for a new one. I wouldn't have complained if they said it was my fault and had to buy a new one. It's quite possible.
stembolt 11-08-05, 10:51 PM	Telling the customer "Sure, give me the bad one and I'll get you a new one" is a courtesy, not an obligation. Nope. It is in fact an obligation. You sold him a book. The part assumed by all parties is that there was nothing wrong with the book in the first place. What confuses you is the concept that there are two injured parties, the store and the book buyer. For example, at Sears our Craftsman power tools usually come with a 1 year manufacturer's defect warranty. However, our return policy is only 90 days. If you come to us with a defective product older than 90 days, our *store* is under no obligation whatsoever to take it back (and we won't unless you whine at a manager enough that he does it just to get you out of his face). No. You just get away with it, if you do it at all. Return policies do not cover Manufactures defects. They cover “this drill isn’t powerful enough” “I don’t like the color.” But then I’m a just guy who works in manufacturing, how would I know more about manufacturing than a drill salesman? However, if a store *knows* a product is faulty and sells it anyway, that can constitute fraud. Your whole dust jacket analogy is only aplicable if a store knows for a fact that the product is bad and, for whatever reason, decides to sell it rather than return it to the vendor. Actually all analogy is incorrect. Analogy merely serves as an aid to understanding. I wish our store had a stricter returns policy. Why? Why do you care? I have dealt with customer returns many times. We make a part that goes on the underside of a car and we will occasionally get returns of engineering samples. One customer (a northern European customer btw) sent us some returns siteing that they were defective. Upon receipt of the units I discovered that they had pried the parts open with a screwdriver and a saw then sealed them with electrical tape. So we all laughed at them and then refunded their money. You read right. We gave them their money back. We made ten times that much money over the next year from them. At the end of the day refunding money is just an expense. If you are making a profit, that’s what you care about. So you give back $3 to the woman. Some other guy just bought $300 worth of clothes and he bought them from you because he wants his returns to be hassle free.
Galahad_Knight 11-08-05, 11:55 PM	Nope. It is in fact an obligation. You sold him a book. The part assumed by all parties is that there was nothing wrong with the book in the first place. And the publisher sold the book to the wholesaler, and the wholesaler sold it to the book store. Since the publisher was the one who sold the faulty book in the first place, the responsibility is his. Perhaps the laws in your state are different than the ones in mine. But then I’m a just guy who works in manufacturing, how would I know more about manufacturing than a drill salesman? Well, for a start, I'm not a "drill salesman" But, of course, what was I thinking. What on earth would a man who deals with returns every single day possibly know about the retailer's obligations in regards to defective goods. And, assuming you actually work in RMA or some other aspect of manufacturing that deals in returns, exactly how many years have you worked in *publishing*? I ran a book store for a couple of years. When I did, the state law at the time said that after ten days I, as a retailer, had no obligation to take anything back. I did, because it's just good business and you can send the book back to the manufacturer and get refunded for taking it back. But I didn't have to. Actually all analogy is incorrect. Analogy merely serves as an aid to understanding. And your analogy was faulty. It only applies to a retailer who knowingly sells bad goods. I'm not saying it's not in the store's best intests to take the product back. Most places will just to get you to shut up. I'm just saying they're not nessecarily under any obligation to do so. There are sections of the UCC that deal with product liability as far as merchants go (implied warranties of merchantability and fitness of purpose, etc) but enforcement is up to state law, if I recall correctly. In my home state, after ten days the retailer isn't under obligation unless it can be shown he knowingly sold a faulty product. However, faulty products can be returned (by customers or retailers) to the vendor for a refund if it is determined that it was, indeed, faulty. The laws in your state may varry, but in my state, we blame the person who actually messed the item up for it being messed up. (Unless, of course, someone knowingly sold a faulty product, but that's fraud, that's a different can of worms) The publisher made a faulty product. The publisher sold a faulty product. The publisher is at fault. You can return the product to the retailer, and the retainer can then take that product back to the manufacturer and get a refund. Or you can do it yourself Either way, the publisher is the party who pays for the product being faulty. I could be wrong, and I'll admit that if you can prove it, but to my knowledge, the manufacturer is the one responsible for faulty manufacturing.
stembolt 11-09-05, 12:52 AM	Perhaps the laws in your state are different than the ones in mine. Not a state law. A federal law with a grounding in common law. One of the most basic and obvious laws in existence. If you sell something that is not what you state it is, you have to take it back. To use the dust jacket analogy, if a customer switched two books dust jackets and another customer bought the book, would the store be responsible? They didn’t “know” that the exchange had taken place. Do you really think that the customer should have to write the publisher? Publishers don’t sell to customers. It is unlikely that they would even have access to a copy of the book. (Not to mention that the printer is responsible not the publisher) Ultimately if a store sells a defective product they are responsible. Absolutely and without question. If you sold empty playstation boxes (unknowingly of course) and then did not refund people money because 10 days had elapsed you would be laughed out of court. Or if you suggested that they should contact Sony for their playstations you would again be laughed out of court. To get this discussion back on track. If you get a defective book bring it to the place you bought it. They will replace it. Not they might replace it, they will replace it. Get the manager. If the manager won’t, call the police. Seriously. Have the cop come to the store, if they do not relent file a report with the police. Then contact the better business Bureau. Now I simply cannot even imagine needing to go that far with a manufacturing defect. The manager (unlike a salesman), in addition to understanding the concept of customer relations is also at least minimally trained in business so they should know they have to take the book back. Lets say it has actually gone this far. You are not taking the store to court over a $30 book. So that’s why you paid with a credit card. Call them up and they will reverse payment. Then it is between visa and the retailer.
Edymnion 11-09-05, 01:09 AM	To get this discussion back on track. If you get a defective book bring it to the place you bought it. They will replace it. Not they might replace it, they will replace it. Get the manager. If the manager won’t, call the police. Seriously. Have the cop come to the store, if they do not relent file a report with the police. Then contact the better business Bureau.You know, we just got through dealing with the BBB because a customer bought a wig from our store, wore it, then tried to return it (we have a no return policy, and we do not allow anyone to try on wigs because of health concerns with lice). She said it didn't look exactly like the picture on the package, and that she wanted her money back. We offered to help style it to look like the picture, but she refused the help and demanded her money back. Threatened to dispute the credit card bill (she had signed the reciept, which means it wouldn't do any good if she had), etc etc etc. We told her we would not give her her money back, and to please leave our store. We got the BBB notice a week or two later. Guess what? We explained our policy, that we have "No Returns, Refunds, or Exhanges" signs up all over the building, and that we would not give the woman a refund. The BBB has since dropped the complaint against us. It is *NOT* the vendor's responcibility to take back anything once it has been sold. The vendor is only responcible for false advetising if they knowingly sell a defective or damaged product. We have owned and operated this business for 15 years. We know the law and how it applies to us. If something doesn't look like the picture on the box, then you have to take it up with the manufacturer, not the vendor. If the book has been missprinted, the vendor does not have to take it back. The buyer is free to contact the manufacturer, and trade the damaged item in for a correct one, but the very idea of holding the vendor responcible for it is just plain laughable. Literally. If you try to push that sort of thing, all they will do is laugh at you. If you call the cops on something like this, and try to press charges, the burden of proof falls on you to not only prove that the vendor KNEW the book was a missprint, but that they also intentionally sold it to you, knowing full well that it was defective. Otherwise, it's buyer beware.
Galahad_Knight 11-09-05, 01:20 AM	And, of course, without a receipt (which you probably don;t have after two months) you can;t even prove they sold it to you, much less that they knowingly sold bad goods. Thank you Edy, I'm glad there's someone else with actual retail experience here who knows what they're talking about, rather than a guy who probably works a press in some factory. I used to work in the "motion picture industry" in high school, but just because I swept up popcorn doesn't mean I should give an opinion in regards to screen Actor's Guild bylaws.
stembolt 11-09-05, 01:32 AM	Wow. I would love to return something to one of your stores guys. Lets say someone buys a wig from your store in a box labeled “contents one wig”. They step outside opening the box as they go. They immediately walk back in and show you the inside of the box that contains a 99-cent mustache and not a 50-dollar wig. Now if I’m reading you right you tell the guy “screw you buddy, we already have your money and there is nothing you can do about it.” If you call the cops on something like this, and try to press charges, the burden of proof falls on you to not only prove that the vendor KNEW the book was a missprint, but that they also intentionally sold it to you, knowing full well that it was defective. Otherwise, it's buyer beware. Oh I forgot that part did I. The cop would tell you to take the book back. (that’s why it would be fun to return it) I think it is pretty clear to people needing advice on this subject who knows what they are talking about. (Besides even if G and E were correct they think you are SOL if you get a defective book so you have nothing to loose) As for Galahad and Ed, I hope for your sake you never have to deal with any defective items from a clever or intelligent purchaser.
stembolt 11-09-05, 01:55 AM	And, of course, without a receipt (which you probably don;t have after two months) you can;t even prove they sold it to you, much less that they knowingly sold bad goods. No. The key contested point in these scenarios is responsibility. In this case you will notice that there is no contesting the fact that the purchase was made at the store or that the product is in fact defective. Thank you Edy, I'm glad there's someone else with actual retail experience here who knows what they're talking about, rather than a guy who probably works a press in some factory. Actually I have had experience in retail. But moving furniture did prepare me less for the discussion than my work as an Engineering assistant (II) in small-scale prototype manufacturing. I try to get mad but the pay scale difference is just too amusing.
Edymnion 11-09-05, 02:05 AM	Lets say someone buys a wig from your store in a box labeled “contents one wig”. They step outside opening the box as they go. They immediately walk back in and show you the inside of the box that contains a 99-cent mustache and not a 50-dollar wig. Now if I’m reading you right you tell the guy “screw you buddy, we already have your money and there is nothing you can do about it.” No, we'd exchange it for you and then send it back to the manufacturer ourselves, because when the customer isn't throwing a hissyfit, we do try to go out of our way to help them. But we would not be required by law to do so. We do it because we like to help our customers. But when its clear the customer is just trying to rip us off, there is no magic words they can say that will force us to take back goods that they themselves damaged. There is no law that says we have to do it. Seriously, try it for yourself. Go to a local business and buy something from them. Take it home, break it into several pieces, wrap it up with duct tape, and try and take it back as being defective, or claim that it was like that when you got it. Then, when they won't do it, call the police and try to press charges over your duct-taped disaster. See what they do to you. If you're lucky, they'll just give you a stern talking to about wasting a police officer's time. If you try to press charges, you yourself could well be fined or even arrested for pressing false charges. Or try it with your example. Go to Wal-Mart and buy a $50 boom box. Go home, take the boom box out, and put in a $5 walkman from the dollar store. Now try and return the boom box to Wal-Mart, and claim that it didn't have the boom box in it when you bought the thing. When they refuse to take it back, call the police and try to press charges against Wal-Mart, and see how long it takes them to sue you.
Galahad_Knight 11-09-05, 02:14 AM	My point, stembolt, is that you don't actually deal directly with handling returns. (Unless I'm mistaken in assuming an Engering assistant is different than an RMA associate) In fact, if it's all the store's fault there shouldn't even be a department for dealing with returns, should there? But there is because when someone like you falls asleep and messes up the product, someone like me sends it back in the hopes that in the intervening time you learned how to do your job properly. And there is a difference between deceptive or defective *marketing* (selling an empty box) and defective *goods*. If someone buys a defective product it can be returned to the manufacturer. It's not the stre's fault that you can't do your job. It;sn not even the store's job to make sure you did your job rihgt since the manufacturer is responsible for quality controll. Hell, most customers won't even buy a product that has been opened at the store, so there's no way for us to check the goods. We assume that engineers aren't idiots and can do their jobs right. Every now and then they don't, and we send it back for them to deal with. Having built my own computer, I've had to send parts back to the manufacturers from time to time. Most computer stores have a no returns policy on opened product. If you buy a bad processor, you mail it back to AMD or Intel or whomever and their RMA department determined if it was improperly manufactured and sends you out a new one. Trust me, I;ve researched it because I didnt; want to have to wait three weeks to get my computer running again. I contacted the RMA departmtnt, informed them of my defective product and got a ticket number. I sent the product back, with the number attached. They reviewed it, determined it was faulty and sent me a new one. Why do you think they HAVE RMA departments if it's all on the store to deal with? There's a difference between someone selling an empty box and someone selling a piece of merchendise that they have no way of checking for quality.
stembolt 11-09-05, 02:36 AM	Seriously, try it for yourself. Seriously try reading my posts. My point is that you don't actually deal directly with handling returns. I actually deal directly with customers in returns. I often talk to the guy who had the problem with the unit in the first place. In fact, if it's all the store's fault there shouldn't even be a department for dealing with returns, should there? But there is because when someone like you falls asleep and messes up the product, someone like me sends it back in the hopes that in the intervening time you learned how to do your job properly. The reason why is one of statistics. It is a little complicated but it boils down to this. The cost of replacing the odd unit sent back is less than the cost to reduce errors by that much more. There's a difference between someone selling an empty box and someone selling a piece of merchendise that they have no way of checking for quality. there’s no difference. (Remember you don’t know the boxes are empty)
WolfHati 11-09-05, 03:06 AM	Just for a bit of actual legal info... The United States federal law the Maguson-Moss Warranty Act allows consumers to sue for damages for products which do not live up to their warranties, including implied warranties, but those are governed by state law. But pretty much any business I know of would replace a defective product, just out of customer service, because being a jerk to the people who give you money is going to make you poor pretty quick.
darkness ninja of light 11-09-05, 09:57 AM	Why? Why do you care? I care because I don't like having idiot customers getting only profit back for crap when they're clearly ripping us off, but MOSTLY I like having new/clean clothes to sell rather than used crap. Just having a return policy of a year or so wouldn't somehow keep us from gaining a profit. Or we can at LEAST require a receipt, that way all those who payed with a credit card don't get their items stolen and returned for a store credit/cash (we have gotten calls asking that we don't take any returns without a receipt for these reasons, but we can't do anything about them). Return policies aren't some evil thing that oppresses the customer. Frankly, they would help ensure that the clothes I sell are all of quality. Some people don't wash their "new" clothes before putting them on their children and I worry about that. A little one could possibly catch something if the clothes look fine, but are actually well-used from the previous user who was not the healthiest little guy. We can't resell clothes that have been washed too, so they get thrown out, though we can't always tell which ones have been washed and which ones haven't. Haha, this reminds me of another story. As I said before we sell newborn-7 years. A woman came in with a 12 year old outfit (fit for a 12 year old, that is) that had the name of company that (apparantly) shared our company's name. She demanded she get her return back and was even calling head office in fits of rage and they also told her that have never sold 12 year old outfits. *sigh* Frankly, when a customer makes such a hissy fit when we're doing EVERYTHING we can to help them out, I can't help but smile when they say "I'm never coming here again". I do so when they're gone, of course.
LuciferNietzsche 11-09-05, 11:55 AM	The way it should be: Return policy should never be greater than 6 months. I agree, if you keep it that long when broken from day one, you're an idiot, suffer the consequences. Warranty length and coverage should be based on product type and intended use. If you're supposed to be able to do something for a certain period of time with a given product, it should be covered for that entire period of time under all circumstances except owner-abuse. Which is vague, I know, but defining it here would take too long. Warranties should be honored by larger companies who are absorb smaller ones, or those that "reorganize" to dodge their warranties oustanding. Businesses that go out of business entirely leave people completely screwed and I'm not sure what to do about that. Saying the government should pick up the tab would only burden the taxpayers. The way it REALLY is: You're screwed, give up. (Though you can honestly probably get your book exchanged at either the store where you got it or from Wizards directly. But that's rare, so be thankful.)
stembolt 11-09-05, 11:34 PM	I care because I don't like having idiot customers getting only profit back for crap when they're clearly ripping us off, but MOSTLY I like having new/clean clothes to sell rather than used crap. Well to help put this in perspective, think what kind of crappy life you have to have to want to rip off a baby clothing store for a couple of bucks. The way it should be: Every one of those points is basically true. You can sleep well tonight. You're screwed, give up. (Though you can honestly probably get your book exchanged at either the store where you got it or from Wizards directly. But that's rare, so be thankful.) I have never had a problem returning a defective product at any store ever. So unless you are going to a Sears in Tacoma or a Costume store in Chattanooga you are all set.
Judas_777 11-09-05, 11:46 PM	Wow. American Trade Practices are screwed up... I've been managing an electrical retail store for 6 years in Australia and our laws are very different from what you guys have been discribing. All non-consumable items have a minimum of 12 month warranty. If the goods are faulty you return them to the place of purchase with your receipt and you get a replacement (not a refund) or it is sent away for repair depending on the manufacturer's returns policy. Most goods are replacement, but some items (game consoles, Sony products, some video cameras) need to be returned to the manufacturer. A store is only required to give a refund if the product is significantly not as described. Thats it. Most businesses do offer refunds, but that is not required by law. The only items I am aware of that require the customer to contact the manufacturer are Sony Playstations. For some obscure reason they do not generally accept returns from retailers. Cheers, Judas.
stembolt 11-09-05, 11:59 PM	Wow. American Trade Practices are screwed up... I've been managing an electrical retail store for 6 years in Australia and our laws are very different from what you guys have been discribing. All non-consumable items have a minimum of 12 month warranty. If the goods are faulty you return them to the place of purchase with your receipt and you get a replacement (not a refund) or it is sent away for repair depending on the manufacturer's returns policy. Most goods are replacement, but some items (game consoles, Sony products, some video cameras) need to be returned to the manufacturer. A store is only required to give a refund if the product is significantly not as described. Thats it. Most businesses do offer refunds, but that is not required by law. The only items I am aware of that require the customer to contact the manufacturer are Sony Playstations. For some obscure reason they do not generally accept returns from retailers. Cheers, Judas. Those are almost precisely what we have in America. As a point of clarification there are manufactures that prefer that customers report manufacturing defects directly to them. I will point out in almost all cases you would be able to return them to the store anyway. Manufacturers who do this do it because they want to track how well their products are working in the real world and usually are very customer friendly.
Galahad_Knight 11-10-05, 12:24 AM	Every time I've had a defective computer part, I've had to return it to the manufacturer, the retailers have never taken them back after the return period is expired. I've dealt with manufacturer RMA poolicies and procedures as a cusomer. None of the trained RMA associates I've dealt with ever even suggested going back to the store. I've done it three times, for processor, motherboard and ram, all from different manufacturers, and from two different retailers
Edymnion 11-10-05, 01:25 AM	Seriously try reading my posts.I did. And I'm still telling you that there is no magic thing that can make any store anywhere in America take back something they don't want to take back. I'm dead serious. Buy something, intentionally break it yourself (and be obvious about it, buy a DVD and run over it with your car a few times), and then try to get your money back for it. Or buy something, swap it out for something cheaper, and try to get your money back for it. Honestly. Tell me how many stores will actually give you your money back for something that you obviously did yourself, no matter how big of a hissy fit you throw, or who you threaten to contact. A defective product is the domain of the manufacturer, not the retailer. Many retailers WILL exchange/refund the item for you, but they are not required to do so by any law.The United States federal law the Maguson-Moss Warranty Act allows consumers to sue for damages for products which do not live up to their warranties, including implied warranties, but those are governed by state law.Yes. But when the store policy is clearly posted as "No returns, refunds, or exchanges", there is no warrenty, implied or otherwise. Anyway, warrenties are not generally provided by the retailer, but by the manufacturer. There is a reason places like Best Buy try to sell you a warrenty on computers you buy from them. They know that most of the time, any repairs covered by their warrenty will be easy to do, and it will be a profit center for them. You don't sell something a law says you have to give away for free. I mean, my video game console is under warrenty for so long. If it dies a year after I buy it, Wal-Mart ain't gonna take it back, they'll tell you to call Nintendo or Sony and have them handle it.
stembolt 11-10-05, 01:31 AM	Every time I've had a defective computer part, I've had to return it to the manufacturer, the retailers have never taken them back after the return period is expired. I've dealt with manufacturer RMA poolicies and procedures as a cusomer. None of the trained RMA associates I've dealt with ever even suggested going back to the store. I've done it three times, for processor, motherboard and ram, all from different manufacturers, and from two different retailers First off. I assume you are a certified electronics technician working in an ESD compliant IEEE workspace. Next, I have built several computers and have never returned a part because of a manufacturers defect. I ordered the wrong ram once and had an incompatible video card another time. Most modern electronics manufactures (barring systemic problems) make one “bad” part out of every billion parts manufactured. There is a chance you actually had a manufacturing defect. 3 defects? Virtually no chance.
stembolt 11-10-05, 01:45 AM	I'm dead serious. Buy something, intentionally break it yourself I’m dead serious. Read my posts. Manufacturing defects are covered, not any thing else, as I have stated over and over. Yes. But when the store policy is clearly posted as "No returns, refunds, or exchanges" Policy must comply with the law. If you are selling new or certified like new you have to replace defective purchases. Of course the first thing that has to happen is that the part must be defective. Like a book missing pages. “As is” is a different story. In that case you actually are making no guarantees or you are in fact guaranteeing defects. I mean, my video game console is under warrenty for so long. If it dies a year after I buy it, Wal-Mart ain't gonna take it back, they'll tell you to call Nintendo or Sony and have them handle it. Ain’t nobody doing nothing. If you used it for a year it is almost definitely not a manufacturers defect.
Galahad_Knight 11-10-05, 01:53 AM	First off. I assume you are a certified electronics technician working in an ESD compliant IEEE workspace. Next, I have built several computers and have never returned a part because of a manufacturers defect. I ordered the wrong ram once and had an incompatible video card another time. Most modern electronics manufactures (barring systemic problems) make one “bad” part out of every billion parts manufactured. There is a chance you actually had a manufacturing defect. 3 defects? Virtually no chance. <shrugs> They didn;t work, the manufacturers took them back, deemed them defective and sent me replacements. It's possible they were damaged rather than defective, but it doesn;t change my point. The store refused to take back items that failed to work as advertised, and refused to even test them to find out if they were in fact, damaged rather than defective. The manufacturer, gladly took them back, never once suggested I deal with the retailer instead, and furnished replacements. Either the stores were in violation of the law and the manufacturer didn't care, or sending them back to the manufacturr was the right thing to do in the first place.
Edymnion 11-10-05, 03:44 PM	Manufacturing defects are covered, not any thing else, as I have stated over and over.Which is our point. If it is a manufacturing defect, you have to deal with the manufacturer, not the retailer. In fact, the retailers CANNOT be held responcible for manufacturer defects in situations where the retailer has not personally inspected every item it sells. If the box comes from the manufacturer sealed, the retailer sells it without taking it out, testing it, and putting it back, then the retailer is not responcible for any defects. The manufacturer is, as the retailer sold it in good faith. *IF* the retailer were required by law to provide some kind of warrenty for manufacturer defects, then they would also be required by law to take back anything that could concievably have been broken or defective when it was purchased. Its why the buyer has to deal with the manufacturer when dealing with manufacturing defects. And back to the point of this thread, that means the OP needs to contact Wizards of the Coast and get them to replace it. The store they bought the book from is not responcible for it, and is under no legal obligation to replace the book. They may do so if they so desire, but threatening them with legal action is not going to force them to do it. Just send a letter/email to WotC describing the problem with the book, and ask them where you should send the defective copy to in order to get a replacement. If it is an actual printing error (duh, its got duplicated pages, its a defective unit), they will replace it for you, because they *ARE* responcible for that sort of thing.
stembolt 11-11-05, 12:13 AM	It's possible they were damaged rather than defective, but it doesn;t change my point. Well ok, but it does change the meaning of what happened thus invalidating your point. The store says they aren’t taking them back. They know that you probably broke them (70% of defective electronics are caused by ESD) and if you didn’t you are probably using them wrong. The bad news is, you actually are not covered under warranty (because you broke them). If they took the parts back what would they say to the manufacturer “hey we sold this to some guy and he broke it. Give us money.” Now as you recall my company also gives back money to people who broke the product in question. Not because we had to, because we wanted to. *IF* the retailer were required by law to provide some kind of warrenty for manufacturer defects, then they would also be required by law to take back anything that could concievably have been broken or defective when it was purchased. Its why the buyer has to deal with the manufacturer when dealing with manufacturing defects. You’re right 0 does equal infinity. You don’t take back stuff that “could conceivably be broken” you take back stuff that “is” broken. Now I know what you’re thinking, “that depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.” In this case I mean what in fact is the truth. And back to the point of this thread, that means the OP needs to contact Wizards of the Coast and get them to replace it. The store they bought the book from is not responcible for it, and is under no legal obligation to replace the book. They may do so if they so desire, but threatening them with legal action is not going to force them to do it. OK we get it. If we are ever in Chattanooga we won’t buy any costumes. We will tell out friends and family not to either. Shame on us. In the really real world if there is anybody out there who has ever had a problem returning a defective book, you let us know. Heck, anyone who has ever had something defective that they could not return, you let us know.
Galahad_Knight 11-11-05, 12:54 AM	Well, I just mentioned my defective computer components. Whether or not there's a chance that I damaged them (which, I can reasonably sya I did not. I was working whiel grounded, I've got a lot of experience and have built more than a dozen computers), or whether they were damaged in shipping to the store, or from improper storage at the store, there's also a chance they were *defective* Since, as you insist, the store is responsible for defective components which, (according to the RMA departments for three seperate manufacturers) they were, they must take them back and either soak the loss, or test them themselves to prove whether or not they were defective. Categorically denying a return based on the *chance* that they were damaged by the user is the same as denying this guy a new book. And, again, if it;s all on the retailer, how come nobody even suggested taking it back to them? The instructions for the RMA process never said "Step one: return it to the vendor. If that fails, procede to step two." You'd think if, somehow, companies are immune to thier own screw ups, wouldn;t it be in their best interests to at least mention to the customer that they should take ot back to the supposedly responsible entity? On a side note: At sears, when we do take back defective goods, we send them back to the vendor for a refund. If it's our fault entirely that a product is defective, why do manufacturers take them back form us? Why take anything back if you;re magically immune to responsibility for your own mistakes? And, PS OK we get it. If we are ever in Chattanooga we won’t buy any costumes. We will tell out friends and family not to either. Shame on us. Now you're just being an ass. He never said he wouldn't take back a defective product, in fact, he;s said several times that he will because it;s just good business. All he was saying was that, from his experience, he is not *obligated* to do so. You're ignoring what he's saying and just making snarky comments. If you're so freaking right, why don't you try *explaining* your stance isntead of just saying "I build things and therefore an an expert on the UCC and all related trade laws" and making fun of people? Since you, apparently, know all of this like the back of yoru hand, why don't you explain it to us unenlightened? Quite some caselaw, cite something. Don't just stand around acting like a jerk
stembolt 11-11-05, 01:23 AM	If it's our fault entirely that a product is defective, why do manufacturers take them back form us? How much of my posts do you read before responding? It is your fault you sold it to him. It is the manufacturers fault they sold it to you. Whether or not there's a chance that I damaged them (which, I can reasonably sya I did not. I was working whiel grounded, I've got a lot of experience and have built more than a dozen computers), or whether they were damaged in shipping to the store, or from improper storage at the store, there's also a chance they were *defective* Oh you broke them or weren’t using them right. I thought I was clear. Like I said before if you are not a qualified technician at an ESD free workstation you could easily have blown the parts out. And even easier you could have been using them wrong. I am a technician and have not always gotten parts right even after reading their technical specs. Now you're just being an ass. Really? Given that you are pretty much batting .00 on “getting it” what’s more likely at this point: that I am for the first time in this discussion just being “an ass” or that you don’t understand? Since your entire argument has been based on “nuh hunh” while I have provided relatively solid explanations I would like to see something from your loosing side other than “because I say so.”
Galahad_Knight 11-11-05, 02:13 AM	How much of my posts do you read before responding? [quote]Oh you broke them or weren’t using them right. I thought I was clear. Like I said before if you are not a qualified technician at an ESD free workstation you could easily have blown the parts out. And even easier you could have been using them wrong. I am a technician and have not always gotten parts right even after reading their technical specs. Well, being that I mastered basic LEGO skills many years ago, I'm aware of how to properly plug a stick of RAM into a motherboard. If, however, that stick is missing a lead, it's not the result of me using it impoperly and it's doubtful that it could have been from improper installation. Regardless of my relative skill, the manufacturers agreed that the parts were defective and issued me replacements. The store refused to even look at them. How can the store be in compliance, at all, witht he law as you claim it if they categorically refuse all returns? Really? Given that you are pretty much batting .00 on “getting it” what’s more likely at this point: that I am for the first time in this discussion just being “an ass” or that you don’t understand? Actually, both. Since two different people have been failing to "get it," has it entered into your mind that, perhaps you'te not explaining your stance properly? Instead of being an ass, be an educator. All you've done to make us "Get it" is say "I'm in manufacturing. I'm right because I say so." Maybe if you quoted a law or statute or case precident someone might be able to "get it" Since your entire argument has been based on “nuh hunh” while I have provided relatively solid explanations I would like to see something from your loosing side other than “because I say so.” Well, since you have, by your own admission, utterly FAILED to convince the "other side" of your point, I'd hardly count you as the winning side of anything. And as for yout "relatively solid explanations" they have all consisted entirely of you saying "I'm right because I say so. I've been doing a somwhat related job for so many years and that makes me right." As for us, we've been replying in kind. We've given examples based on our own experiences dealing with exactly this kind of thing. I said if you prove me wrong I would admit it. So far you've only proven that you're an arrogant ass. Quote me some laws.
KimHal 11-11-05, 05:35 AM	Galahad and Edy, I would have thought that experienced posters as yourselves wouldn't fall into such an obvious trap... :rolleyes: Stop feeding the Troll ! ;)
Galahad_Knight 11-11-05, 05:41 AM	Galahad and Edy, I would have thought that experienced posters as yourselves wouldn't fall into such an obvious trap... Stop feeding the Troll ! Good point. My trolldar is weak from age and lack of cheese. Sorry for the disturbance. <bows out of the thread>
stembolt 11-12-05, 12:59 PM	Regardless of my relative skill, the manufacturers agreed that the parts were defective and issued me replacements. Yeah so you broke the pin off. Those things are very delicate. And they replaced it, as so often happens. Statistically 1 in a billion (or less, the figure is usually called sigma-6 for complicated math reasons) parts are actually bad from the manufacturer. Well, since you have, by your own admission, utterly FAILED to convince the "other side" of your point, I'd hardly count you as the winning side of anything. And as for yout "relatively solid explanations" they have all consisted entirely of you saying "I'm right because I say so. I've been doing a somwhat related job for so many years and that makes me right." Well first off you will have to admit that neither you or Ed are the sharpest knives on this board. So while everyone else read this thread and got it long ago, the two of you are still trudging on. As for case law I haven’t got it. But it is a fallacy to assume its need. I provided illustrations. Do you have a problem with any of them because you have never questioned any of them. And if you are looking for qualified people I asked 2 manufacturing engineers, 2 purchase agents, and a “Fellow” I know. And they are all on the same page with me. So I don’t know what more to give you guys. You argument amounts to “Because I say so” Mine amounts to “because I say so, because several expert say so, because it is common sense and because it is common practice.” If you want to refute me you need to first annul the illustrations I provide. Galahad and Edy, I would have thought that experienced posters as yourselves wouldn't fall into such an obvious trap... Yes the trap of the other guy being right, having a point and a logical argument. That makes me a terrible troll. Not to mention completely not acting like a troll at all. Or the fact that I am more experienced than either of them.
Edymnion 11-13-05, 12:50 PM	Galahad and Edy, I would have thought that experienced posters as yourselves wouldn't fall into such an obvious trap... :rolleyes: Stop feeding the Troll ! ;)Yeah, sorry, this is what I get for taking him off my list...
stembolt 11-13-05, 06:16 PM	Yeah, sorry, this is what I get for taking him off my list... Yes it is exactally what you get. Ignoring me is a much simpler solution than trying to have the correct information in the first place.
DMsDelight 11-17-05, 11:50 AM	A couple points here (and not to be rude): a) stop the sniping. Hows this: EVERYONE'S right. In some stores, they do things differently. That being said, as to the ORIGINAL question of the board, I once bought the XPH from Amazon.com that had like 49 pages duplicated. I used their handy return policy, and they sent me a brand new book. Now I have all sorts of psionic goodness for my Eberron campaign. b) This discussion has gotten just a LITTLE out of context here, and I vote it be moved to the General section of the boards, rather than here in Eberron. Sorry had to get nasty there. On a lighter note, Edy, keep up all your good help. You to Stem. Gotta go. more Eberron planning :P Aradona