Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aechean 12-22-06, 08:47 AM	Well, could one?
Ravenseye 12-22-06, 09:10 AM	I would say no. The Create Spawn ability of a vampire specifies that it works on humanoids and monstrous humanoids, which would not include Warforged as they are the Living Construct type. Not to mention that Warforged are also immune to energy drains, which is how the create spawn ability is used. In addition, since they don't have blood, I don't see how the Blood Drain ability of a Vampire would be effective either.
aechean 12-22-06, 09:29 AM	Hmm...perhaps a necromancer warforged created a strain of vampiric warforged? I think I am going to try it, just because my PC's will never see it coming :)
DarkWarriorKarg 12-22-06, 11:02 AM	Hmm...perhaps a necromancer warforged created a strain of vampiric warforged? I think I am going to try it, just because my PC's will never see it coming :) Except that they refer to "blood" as "energon". And yell out "Terrorize!" as they turn into wolves and bats...
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 12:06 PM	Except that they refer to "blood" as "energon". And yell out "Terrorize!" as they turn into wolves and bats... Damnation, Karg, they're not robots already.
rampant 12-22-06, 12:26 PM	Besides both the bat and wolf were maximals. So it would be "Maximize".
Quasidork 12-22-06, 01:32 PM	Hmm...perhaps a necromancer warforged created a strain of vampiric warforged? I think I am going to try it, just because my PC's will never see it coming :) I was thinking something more along the lines of an Artificer tinkering with a computer virus that infects Warforged.
The White Sorcerer 12-22-06, 04:07 PM	Damnation, Karg, they're not robots already. Warforged, sentient robot with biological components, what's the difference?
rampant 12-22-06, 04:11 PM	Several trademark violations.
Vikjunk 12-22-06, 06:33 PM	Warforged, sentient robot with biological components, what's the difference? Their origins for one. A robot is based on science so logic is a fundamental part of them. And Warforged is an extremely advanced magical construct and since magic is involved they are less likely to be tied to logic. A robot is only as good as it’s programming and if we every figure out a point into making a robot sentient they are most likely be an extremely logical being with every little emotion if they have them at all and are limited to what they were designed for and how much their programming can adapt. And since magic is involved in the creation of the Warforged the people making them didn’t need to fully understand what went into their creation and know their full capacity which explains how they can wield the different types of magic even though they weren’t likely designed for it by their creators.
Roscoe_Greenbottle 12-22-06, 06:33 PM	Several trademark violations. and I declare rampant the winner! but seriously, I think that it would work if some of the abilitys were left out
Edymnion 12-22-06, 06:46 PM	1) Warforged cannot gain the Vampire template because they are not humanoids. 2) Warforged are not robots, you cannot reprogram them any more than you can reprogram the halfling. 3) This doesn't mean you can't have a vampiric WF enemy. Just give them the old jaws of death feat to get a bite attack, and then give them a component that gives their bite attack the Vampiric property. Perhaps toss in the ability to Dominate warforged.
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 06:53 PM	2) Warforged are not robots, you cannot reprogram them any more than you can reprogram the halfling. Actually, I think the Zil are working on that one. The Halflings, I mean.
Raziel_Brokodar 12-22-06, 07:26 PM	I was thinking something more along the lines of an Artificer tinkering with a computer virus that infects Warforged. :confused:
Kreistor2 12-22-06, 10:43 PM	There is no fundamental restriction on Warforged becoming undead (ie. they aren't immune). They don't technically qualify for the currently extant undead templates. This does not prevent the DM from creating unique templates for their own campaigns. Technically, a monstrous humanoid cannot become a Lich, but that's not going to stop me from slapping it down on a Hag or Harpy. Lords of Madness shows one modifier to the Lich Template for Illithid, so by extension, you can do the same for other Types. I personally prefer not to introduce undead templates for warforged at this point. Maybe in another campaign I will, but right now I prefer the idea that though they are alive, undead is only appropriate to biologically, not alchemically, living creatures.
Manyfist 12-22-06, 11:25 PM	I was reading somewhere that there is a "Mirror world" to Eberron. Cyre never was destroyed, Dragonmarked Houses were always under control of the Lords/Ladies, Marks are reversed, Alignments are reversed (Silverflame are Evil, House of Vol are actually Good, The Aberrations aren't evil). The Warforged revolted v. Cyre (They kept them all to them selves) and they're now in charge (LOB is King). It was also saying that not all Warforged are evil, theres even a Good Warforged Vampire (It said, "Yes Warforged in the Mirror world can become Vampires). So in Normal Eberron no. In Bizarro Eberron, yes. :P
Edymnion 12-23-06, 12:16 AM	I was reading somewhere that there is a "Mirror world" to Eberron. Cyre never was destroyed, Dragonmarked Houses were always under control of the Lords/Ladies, Marks are reversed, Alignments are reversed (Silverflame are Evil, House of Vol are actually Good, The Aberrations aren't evil). The Warforged revolted v. Cyre (They kept them all to them selves) and they're now in charge (LOB is King). It was also saying that not all Warforged are evil, theres even a Good Warforged Vampire (It said, "Yes Warforged in the Mirror world can become Vampires).Don't forget that everybody in mirror world has a goatee.
The White Sorcerer 12-23-06, 08:14 AM	Their origins for one. A robot is based on science so logic is a fundamental part of them. And Warforged is an extremely advanced magical construct and since magic is involved they are less likely to be tied to logic. Origin is the only significant difference: One is powered by technology, one by magic. Golems are magical, but I have no problem calling them robots. Then again, your mileage may vary. 2) Warforged are not robots, you cannot reprogram them any more than you can reprogram the halfling. Magic can, in all likelyhood, reprogram halflings.
SquirrelMortis 12-23-06, 08:48 AM	Don't forget that everybody in mirror world has a goatee. That brings back memories... :)
aechean 12-24-06, 12:43 AM	Well, what I am doing is: The warforged in question was thought to have been killed many years ago. He was actually captured by the Emerald Claw. He was then delivered to a Blood of Vol priest who had happened upon a schema for turning warforged into undead. After several failed attempts, the warforged in question was the first one that succeeded. As long as I explain it, with at least a semi rational reason as to why he is a vampire, the PCs wont have a problem with it, and it will be great fun. This warforged is now being hunted by the Lord of Blades because he is an abomination, and since the PCs are unknowingly helping him, they are also being attacked be LoB agents...
SwarthmoreDB 12-25-06, 08:48 PM	I was reading somewhere that there is a "Mirror world" to Eberron. Cyre never was destroyed, Dragonmarked Houses were always under control of the Lords/Ladies, Marks are reversed, Alignments are reversed (Silverflame are Evil, House of Vol are actually Good, The Aberrations aren't evil). The Warforged revolted v. Cyre (They kept them all to them selves) and they're now in charge (LOB is King). It was also saying that not all Warforged are evil, theres even a Good Warforged Vampire (It said, "Yes Warforged in the Mirror world can become Vampires). So in Normal Eberron no. In Bizarro Eberron, yes. :P Your ideas about this Bizarro Eberron are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :D I actually do think that the above could be interesting for a new thread.
DaemonStryker 12-25-06, 08:57 PM	I was reading my christmas gift earlier. (PHBII) It actually gave an example in it of warforged, and whether or not they could become vamps. The answer is no.
Cabral 12-26-06, 01:05 PM	Yes. a warforged can become a vampire. Step 1: Complete Rebuilding Quest (PHB2) to become a humanoid race. Step 2: Get bit. :)
The White Sorcerer 12-26-06, 04:11 PM	Yes. a warforged can become a vampire. Step 1: Complete Rebuilding Quest (PHB2) to become a humanoid race. Step 2: Get bit. :) Nope. The warforged ceases to be warforged after completing the quest. Thus, what becomes a vampire is a dwarf, elf, or other humanoid creature, not a warforged.
Elderich 12-26-06, 05:55 PM	To my mind, a warforged is more like an intellegent sword/item than a robot.
Enial 12-27-06, 09:32 AM	Well, I don't really remember that which book sayed that warforged can't become undead but it's said somewhere. Maybe in Races of Eberron or Faiths of Eberron. Also the people saiyng warforged hasn't souls argue their opinion saying that warforged can't cacome undead.
androkguz 12-27-06, 03:25 PM	Stop thinking about Warforged as robots! That really ruins the D&D stile. Well, they can't become vampires unless a really good necromancer finds a way to do so, and even then it would be weird. I mean, they never slept or drink when they where alive, now they have to stay on their coffins during the day and to suck blood from their victims? I would better have the Order rebuild him and have a Demon posses him if what you want is him to be back alive and on the side of Vol.
yossarius 12-28-06, 05:01 PM	Personally, I'm against the idea of a warforged becoming any kind of undead. My concept of undead has always been that they are more than just corpses animated by magic. The main component is a soul or spirit that has been somehow either bound to service after death, or has been denied the ability to travel on to the next world. So, to me, a warforged would need to possess a soul or spirit to qualify. (I'm not a big fan of the rules-lawyer kind of thinking that says "I can do anything the rules don't specifically barr me from doing." One might find some kind of loop-hole in the rules to allow a warforged to become a vampire, but in my opinion that violates the intended idea of warforged. As a DM, part of my responsibility is to defend the continuity of my story against players looking for the RPG equivilent to cheat codes.)
aechean 12-29-06, 03:35 AM	Personally, I'm against the idea of a warforged becoming any kind of undead. My concept of undead has always been that they are more than just corpses animated by magic. The main component is a soul or spirit that has been somehow either bound to service after death, or has been denied the ability to travel on to the next world. So, to me, a warforged would need to possess a soul or spirit to qualify. (I'm not a big fan of the rules-lawyer kind of thinking that says "I can do anything the rules don't specifically barr me from doing." One might find some kind of loop-hole in the rules to allow a warforged to become a vampire, but in my opinion that violates the intended idea of warforged. As a DM, part of my responsibility is to defend the continuity of my story against players looking for the RPG equivilent to cheat codes.) I actually like the idea of him being rebuilt and possessed by a demon, I may go with that. However, my responsibility as a DM is to provide an entertaining experience for my characters. If a warforged didn't have a "soul" then I don't think you would be able to play one as a PC. The idea of a warforged vampire is actually very intriguing to me, because it could be seen as the next step toward warforged being viewed as humans. In fact, said warforged may even be glad that he was cursed in this way, because it shows that he was as vulnerable as a humanoid was. Obviously, there are pros, cons, and rules for/against. The best part of my job is, I'm the DM, so if I really want it to happen, I can make it happen. As long as you provide a good story, your players should be able to accept it.
androkguz 12-29-06, 07:43 PM	I actually like the idea of him being rebuilt and possessed by a demon, I may go with that. However, my responsibility as a DM is to provide an entertaining experience for my characters. If a warforged didn't have a "soul" then I don't think you would be able to play one as a PC. The idea of a warforged vampire is actually very intriguing to me, because it could be seen as the next step toward warforged being viewed as humans. In fact, said warforged may even be glad that he was cursed in this way, because it shows that he was as vulnerable as a humanoid was. For the first part, you welcome and I recomend a polymorphing one just to surprise the party. (and then Melinda got rid of her cloak.... and below there was Destroyer, alive and with very much malevolent look) But if you wanted the thing of having an undead warforged to prove that they are as vulnerable as humans, then I think I have an even better idea: a new type of undead. It would partially prove that they are alive and have a soul but would not be a contundent evidence since not all undead retain their original soul. Kind of controversial. A good bite for the Korranberg chronicle. :rolleyes:
yossarius 12-29-06, 08:10 PM	My opinion that warforged have no soul isn't because RoE said so (although I think that is in fact the case). I simply believe that no magic mortals can weave (short of perhaps the most powerful of divine spells) can grant an inanimate object a soul. Intelligence, yes. Self-awareness, even, yes. A spark of the infinite, no. That should be the pervue of the Gods alone. If that is the case (it is in my version of Eberron, anyway), then I can't reconcile myself with the possibility of undead warforged, for the reason I stated above. Naturally, as DM of your own game, you can decide on this matter however you want. Were I a player in your game, I'd probably offer the same argument (outside of the game session, naturally), then abide by your decision. It is, after all, your game. This is the same behavior I expect of my own players. I'm perfectly willing to listen to their point-of-view on some item of interpretation. They've even changed my mind on a few things from time-to-time. But, ultimately, it's my job to make the game hard enough that my players enjoy it. If they are trying to argue that I ought to allow all material from Serpent Kingdom and Savage Species, it's my job to anticipate that they are trying to sneak Pun-pun into my game. That's what I meant above by "defend the continuity of my story."
The White Sorcerer 12-29-06, 08:24 PM	My opinion that warforged have no soul isn't because RoE said so (although I think that is in fact the case). I simply believe that no magic mortals can weave (short of perhaps the most powerful of divine spells) can grant an inanimate object a soul. Intelligence, yes. Self-awareness, even, yes. A spark of the infinite, no. That should be the pervue of the Gods alone. But that's what makes warforged so fascinating. Also, where does it say they haven't got souls in RoE?
Quasidork 12-29-06, 10:36 PM	it doesn't "directly" say they have no soul, simply that in the sidebar "Question of Souls" on page 16, that at the Treaty of Thronehold, there was an argument about it, discussing both sides, and ultimately was not decided. The Warforged were granted freedom based on exhibiting thought and free will alone.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 04:07 PM	My opinion that warforged have no soul isn't because RoE said so (although I think that is in fact the case). I simply believe that no magic mortals can weave (short of perhaps the most powerful of divine spells) can grant an inanimate object a soul. Intelligence, yes. Self-awareness, even, yes. A spark of the infinite, no. That should be the pervue of the Gods alone. But the Creation Forges *don't* create a soul. Far from it -- the artificers of Cannith have no real idea how the things work, exactly, and the increasing free will, sentience and personality of the warforged they were making was more like a dangerous side effect than something they intended. Certainly the burning soul of an individual like the Lord of Blades was nothing they planned for. The question of how the warforged became free-willed beings is an open one -- it's implied that the only person who can really answer that is the original inventor, Aaren d'Cannith, who is now long gone -- but it's certainly not a direct alchemical or artificial process. Remember that the original Creation Forges of Xen'drik created Quorcraft Warforged, mindless bodies that only gained sentience when *inhabited* by quori spirits. The warforged bodies were always meant as *hosts* for sentience, not sentient beings themselves. This ventures into the realm of my own speculation, but this is why, to me, SoX increases, not decreases, the allure of the warforged question. It almost seems to me like Aaren's breakthrough was not merely recreating the Forges, but creating a Forge that allowed the warforged to play host, not to a quori spirit, but a mortal soul, taken from... somewhere. The fact that artificers make the warforged bodies does not mean they play god and create souls, remember. Human parents are biologically responsible for their children's bodies, but religions the world over have long posited that this isn't creating the child's soul -- just giving it a place to live. Of course, it is still true that a warforged is not alive in the same way as a human -- that there's something unnatural, forced, *wrong* about the way warforged have become ensouled. This ties to my own thoughts about the big warforged question -- why warforged souls don't remember Dolurrh, why they can't be seen in Dolurrh. My own thought is that there is, perhaps, a cycle of reincarnation that Dolurrh is the first, visible step of, and the Creation Forges interrupt this cycle -- that souls are ripped away from their rightful place and their rightful *identities* and given a new one, but one that only lasts as long as they inhabit the warforged body. (It bears some resonance with the way the experience of being a docent is said to change a quori, from the novels.) That there is some truth to what is said about warforged worshippers of the Blood of Vol -- they don't become undead because in a sense they are *already* undead, they are beings that have transcended the natural cycle of birth and death. This is all heavy speculation on my own part, of course, and each DM's territory to decide -- but I heartily agree with you that warforged souls *are not* created by artificers in the Forges, which is why I push so hard for the idea that they do, in fact, *have* souls -- because giving someone something that's just like a soul (intelligence, free will, the capacity to love and hate and fear) but isn't a soul is just a way of sidestepping the question of creating souls. If artificers can create a really good artificial intelligence that's just like a soul, then what is the value in saying they can't create souls? Where's the wonder and magic in saying that souls are the purview of the gods, but souls have no value beyond being floaty glowy things that survive after you die? No -- I'm convinced that if "soul" means anything it means that, in Eberron at least, the quality of being a free-willed individual with memories and desires and a continuous identity is a metaphysical, magical property that can only be granted by the gods (or whatever), and that this means there's something sinister about what the Creation Forges are -- the core of what a warforged is, his identity, his soul, isn't being *made* by the forges, just... embodied.
androkguz 12-30-06, 04:57 PM	That was beatiful.... I love it :)
Cabral 12-31-06, 01:37 AM	Nope. The warforged ceases to be warforged after completing the quest. Thus, what becomes a vampire is a dwarf, elf, or other humanoid creature, not a warforged. Yes, but it was, at one point, a warforged and in a very complicated manner became a vampire. :D
NightBreeze 12-31-06, 03:54 PM	vampire? no. choose some other crunchy think, please ;)
mithrilmoon 12-31-06, 06:58 PM	I would say no. The Create Spawn ability of a vampire specifies that it works on humanoids and monstrous humanoids, which would not include Warforged as they are the Living Construct type. Not to mention that Warforged are also immune to energy drains, which is how the create spawn ability is used. In addition, since they don't have blood, I don't see how the Blood Drain ability of a Vampire would be effective either. Well I've heard of vampire dragons and they're not any kind of humanoid. How do they become vampires? Perhaps the warforged could become undead through some sort of ritual or maybe you could just make him deathless.
Siberys 01-01-07, 04:15 AM	The question of how the warforged became free-willed beings is an open one -- it's implied that the only person who can really answer that is the original inventor, Aaren d'Cannith, who is now long gone -- but it's certainly not a direct alchemical or artificial process. Remember that the original Creation Forges of Xen'drik created Quorcraft Warforged, mindless bodies that only gained sentience when *inhabited* by quori spirits. The warforged bodies were always meant as *hosts* for sentience, not sentient beings themselves. And, really, Aaren d'Cannith probably wouldn't know either; his father, Merrix, discovered warforged creation schemas in Xen'drik, after all. I'd allow *certain* types of undead - Zombies, ghosts, wraiths, other incorporeal undead and a few types of corporeal undead - to be animated from WF corpses. But, vampires? no. There's a seperate template for Vampire dragons, the "Vampiric Dragon" template. Bound to their hoard instead of a coffin. See the Draconimicon.
ArcTan 01-01-07, 02:35 PM	And, really, Aaren d'Cannith probably wouldn't know either; his father, Merrix, discovered warforged creation schemas in Xen'drik, after all. True, but it says that the first warforged made -- Warforged Titans -- were dumb constructs with somewhat more innate intelligence and will than a simple golem (think trainable animals more than programmable robots). It was Aaren's breakthrough that somehow made warforged into free-willed beings with souls. Whether he understands what he did or not is up in the air, of course.
a_psh 01-01-07, 11:43 PM	True, but it says that the first warforged made -- Warforged Titans -- were dumb constructs with somewhat more innate intelligence and will than a simple golem (think trainable animals more than programmable robots).You could still say that's a soul. Maybe just a soul that is poorly shoved in there, which limits its actual sentience. Like that robot in Robocop. I forget which one.
yrogerg 01-02-07, 12:21 AM	This is all heavy speculation on my own part, of course, and each DM's territory to decide -- but I heartily agree with you that warforged souls *are not* created by artificers in the Forges, which is why I push so hard for the idea that they do, in fact, *have* souls -- because giving someone something that's just like a soul (intelligence, free will, the capacity to love and hate and fear) but isn't a soul is just a way of sidestepping the question of creating souls. If artificers can create a really good artificial intelligence that's just like a soul, then what is the value in saying they can't create souls? Where's the wonder and magic in saying that souls are the purview of the gods, but souls have no value beyond being floaty glowy things that survive after you die? No -- I'm convinced that if "soul" means anything it means that, in Eberron at least, the quality of being a free-willed individual with memories and desires and a continuous identity is a metaphysical, magical property that can only be granted by the gods (or whatever), and that this means there's something sinister about what the Creation Forges are -- the core of what a warforged is, his identity, his soul, isn't being *made* by the forges, just... embodied. There's another, related possibility, you'll note: after all, nobody really *knows* what happens to the souls that get snatched up the Keeper.
ArcTan 01-02-07, 04:06 AM	You could still say that's a soul. Maybe just a soul that is poorly shoved in there, which limits its actual sentience. Like that robot in Robocop. I forget which one. Or that because it's only a fit habitation for an animal-like level of intelligence, an animal-like soul is what ends up inhabiting it. (A WF Titan has an Int of something like 3, doesn't it? As opposed to a golem, which has Int --, or mindless.) It's up to you whether that's the case or it's the more horrifying case of a humanoid soul with (presumably) the full capacity for intelligence but trapped in a brain-damaged body. In D&D, though, it is fairly clear that animals -- at least animals of a certain degree of development -- *do* have souls, or so the core D&D concept of places like the Beastlands, where faithful animal companions and such become petitioners, would imply. As for the robot in Robocop, you could be referring either to the ED-209 -- which is just a fantastically dumb machine -- or the Robocop 2, inhabited by the brain of that crazy drug addict dude. I don't think the problem the was really so much that the robot body was inferior so much as that the brain was that of a crazy drug addict dude.
ArcTan 01-02-07, 04:08 AM	There's another, related possibility, you'll note: after all, nobody really *knows* what happens to the souls that get snatched up the Keeper. I like this. Hell, I like it enough that I'm taking it for my campaign.
yossarius 01-02-07, 12:43 PM	In a D&D setting, I'd say the defining characteristic of what makes something a soul rather than simply an intelligence is that a soul may respond to resurrection magic, whereas an intelligence would not. Checking my ECS, it says quite clearly on page 23 that warforged, as living constructs, can indeed be resurrected. Hmmmm. Perhaps my original assumption is flawed. With that in mind, perhaps I might allow undead warforged, although I still don't think I'd allow vampire warforged. I just don't like the image of Count Stab drinking motor oil.
The White Sorcerer 01-02-07, 01:51 PM	I allow warforged to become undead, as long as the undead template in question can be applied to them.
eehamburg 01-02-07, 02:10 PM	Except that they refer to "blood" as "energon". And yell out "Terrorize!" as they turn into wolves and bats... Where is Megatron when you need him?
ArcTan 01-02-07, 08:35 PM	In a D&D setting, I'd say the defining characteristic of what makes something a soul rather than simply an intelligence is that a soul may respond to resurrection magic, whereas an intelligence would not. Checking my ECS, it says quite clearly on page 23 that warforged, as living constructs, can indeed be resurrected. Hmmmm. Perhaps my original assumption is flawed. With that in mind, perhaps I might allow undead warforged, although I still don't think I'd allow vampire warforged. I just don't like the image of Count Stab drinking motor oil. By RAW, almost all undead templates can't be applied to warforged. The intention was clearly to not allow WF to respond to necromancy in quite the same way as "real" living things. Souls they may have, but they're not alive in quite the traditional sense -- much in the same way as undead aren't.
The White Sorcerer 01-02-07, 08:51 PM	An example of an undead creature a warforged can become: Rancid beetle zombie (Sharn: City of Towers).
Siberys 01-02-07, 09:30 PM	others include (those marked with * would be allowed in my camapaigns, even if not RAW): Ghost* Lich* (this one is debatable. It says "humanoid creature" which could be taken as either Humanoid Type or humanoid in shape) Zombie (regardless of what the sage says, WF have enough of a skeletal system for me) Spectral* Umbral* Wight* (see lich) Wraith* Swordwraith* Death Knight* Spellstitched (after they became undead, of course...) An idea for a Karrn WF Pally stuck in Cyre on the Mourning just hit me; Now, he's Coffin; a LE Spellwarped Spellstitched Deathknight WF Paladin / Blackguard... :eek: Disregard that spellwarped can't be added to either constructs OR undead... Must... resist... usage!
okaynowa 01-03-07, 09:11 AM	Said Kreistor2:I personally prefer not to introduce undead templates for warforged at this point. Maybe in another campaign I will, but right now I prefer the idea that though they are alive, undead is only appropriate to biologically, not alchemically, living creatures.Warforged as alchemically living creatures-- I like that. It's like the fantasy version of carbon vs. silicon-based life. (rant) And personally, I find it important to have fantasy terms for discussing the warforged. If there's one thing that tires me, it's the label "robot." With all respect to the Brothers Capek, fiction offers more than one model for living constructs. L. Frank Baum's characters come to mind-- the Scarecrow, the Gumph, Jack Pumpkinhead, and the Sawhorse to name a few. The Golem. Pinnochio. Even the Brave Little Toaster (awesome short story, Thomas Disch, check it out) has excellent characterization as an animate object without resorting to words like "programming." (/rant) To the topic at hand-- my speculative question would be, if the warforged can achieve an undead-like state, could they be cured of it and returned to living construct status? Would it simply be a matter of repair, spiritual and physical?
ArcTan 01-03-07, 09:12 PM	And personally, I find it important to have fantasy terms for discussing the warforged. If there's one thing that tires me, it's the label "robot." With all respect to the Brothers Capek, fiction offers more than one model for living constructs. L. Frank Baum's characters come to mind-- the Scarecrow, the Gumph, Jack Pumpkinhead, and the Sawhorse to name a few. The Golem. Pinnochio. Even the Brave Little Toaster (awesome short story, Thomas Disch, check it out) has excellent characterization as an animate object without resorting to words like "programming." *shrug* Personally, I don't like dividing terminology into genres. I don't like genre very much as a concept in the first place, and the fact that warforged are in a "fantasy" setting so we have to use "fantasy" terminology for them bugs me. It's not like there's anything *about* warforged that doesn't fit the definition of the term "robot", really. Most of the things people ascribe to robots that don't apply to warforged don't apply to at least a plurality of the robots in fiction anyway. (I.e. most of the time when an SF story has a robot it eventually gives that robot something akin to sentience, emotion, human motivations, and doesn't allow the humans in the story to modify or control the robot at will.) The thing about most of the counterexamples you list is that their main difference from robots in science fiction is that they're whimsical creatures animated by a bizarre one-time occurrence and still bear some resemblance to an ordinary nonliving thing. They aren't carefully designed by skilled engineers for the specific purpose of being autonomous human-like machines, nor constructed on a large scale by an industrial concern and widely bought and sold for the purpose of accomplishing certain tasks. And, frankly, nothing fits such a race of mechanical men as well as the term "robot". Using the word "golem" for this is a neologism specifically designed to sound more "fantasy" and goes against the historical portrayal of the Golem (created by a single, highly blessed man of God as a sign of his holiness). The whole thing about steampunk is it tries to create a feeling of distance by using real-life or science-fiction concepts with a fantasy gloss -- but when we're not in the story but just describing it, we can be honest about things like "golems" being functionally identical to robots, "lodestones" being magnets, etc. FWIW, I have personally always resisted using "programming" to describe warforged -- they aren't programmed except at a very basic level, for the most part they're taught through ordinary learning and indoctrination -- but I don't see why the term itself is so offensive. Unlike warforged, for example, golems and shield guardians pretty obviously *are* programmed, and there really isn't a much better word for it than what it is. To the topic at hand-- my speculative question would be, if the warforged can achieve an undead-like state, could they be cured of it and returned to living construct status? Would it simply be a matter of repair, spiritual and physical? It would probably be no easier than returning an ordinary undead to physical life -- i.e. require really high-level divine magic, usually in the form of killing the undead and resurrecting it as alive. We are trafficking in souls, here (and I am still convinced that manipulating the nature of warforged life involves manipulating souls, not a matter of simply tweaking a machine). Of course, I continue to maintain that the reason warforged tend not to become undead is that they are already in some sense equivalent to the undead.
okaynowa 01-03-07, 10:05 PM	Said ArcTan:Personally, I don't like dividing terminology into genres. I don't like genre very much as a concept in the first place, and the fact that warforged are in a "fantasy" setting so we have to use "fantasy" terminology for them bugs me.Amusingly enough, I read "The Brave Little Toaster" in Fantasy & Sci-Fi Magazine, which fact alone demonstrates a certain arbitrariness in the division. I use terms that I consider fantastical to set the tone for my Eberron game-- I want our warforged player thinking more about Pinnochio than I, Robot. Whether he does so or not is really up to him, but I admittedly skew the language to suit my needs. I got my degree in literature-- that's all I'm good for. ;) Speaking of the golem, ever read Gustav Meyrink's The Golem? Neat stuff, fairly arcane. The historical character also gets a good treatment in Marge Piercy's He, She, and It... which is, of course, also about robots. :D Of course, a lot of robot stories are really using robots to talk about people, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
ArcTan 01-04-07, 12:50 AM	Said ArcTan:Amusingly enough, I read "The Brave Little Toaster" in Fantasy & Sci-Fi Magazine, which fact alone demonstrates a certain arbitrariness in the division. I use terms that I consider fantastical to set the tone for my Eberron game-- I want our warforged player thinking more about Pinnochio than I, Robot. Whether he does so or not is really up to him, but I admittedly skew the language to suit my needs. I got my degree in literature-- that's all I'm good for. ;) Enh. In my opinion he should be thinking a little bit about both. There is no science of robotics in Eberron that enables a warforged to read his own "programming" and know about his own nature with the confidence of Science -- though, to be fair, when SF depicts such knowledge as existing it usually later depicts it to be at least partially, if not fatally, flawed -- but nonetheless the warforged is built by some very smart people using smart technology to perform some fairly earthy, nasty, mundane tasks (military service). He's like Pinnochio in that the real source of his sentience is something magical, divine, beyond understanding. Perhaps. But unlike Pinnochio, he is born with no consciousness of this fact -- the Blue Fairies and the power of wishing and the ideal of the soul as something one chooses for oneself, these are all subtle, hidden, at least in the setting as written -- and the obvious superficial truth is that warforged are machines built as tools and weapons that (so the Cannith trainers claim) can be perfectly managed and controlled by Science. (Well, okay, Magic, but they clearly see it in the way the heroes of the '30s pulp Eberron references saw Science, and *not* as the wondrous fairy-tale magic of a children's fable.) Eberron as written, anyway, is a somewhat grim adult setting filled with the problems and concerns of a realistic modern world, on top of which is laid the drama and power of the personalities that cut across it in broad strokes -- the essence of pulp/noir and pulp and noir's deep connection to modernity and the spirit of the 20th century. The fairy tale lurks within, of course, but unlike in another game, the fairy-tale moral is buried and hidden and dark, and has to be viewed through either the blood-spattered lens of pulp or the smoked-glass lens of noir. (And, in a very real way, Eando Binder's original I, Robot's Adam Link is very transparently the same character as Pinnochio and as Frankenstein's poor monster. Isaac Asimov's robots less so -- and yet that was always an undercurrent there, wasn't it, as he eventually had to acknowledge with Bicentennial Man?)
aechean 01-04-07, 02:33 AM	My main reason for doing this is to show that a warforged is just as alive as the other races. If a warforged has free will, then in my opinion, it is alive, and that will could be subverted. If you combine an artificer and a necromancer, you could get an undead warforged (IMO). Maybe this warforged only feeds on the energy of other warforged and is bound to a creation forge instead of a coffin? PS The incredibly good debate and conversation in this topic absolutely floors me. The members of this forum are quite a bit more intelligent than many others I have visited. Thanks to all of you :)
yrogerg 01-04-07, 08:08 AM	My main reason for doing this is to show that a warforged is just as alive as the other races. If a warforged has free will, then in my opinion, it is alive, and that will could be subverted. If you combine an artificer and a necromancer, you could get an undead warforged (IMO). Maybe this warforged only feeds on the energy of other warforged and is bound to a creation forge instead of a coffin? PS The incredibly good debate and conversation in this topic absolutely floors me. The members of this forum are quite a bit more intelligent than many others I have visited. Thanks to all of you :) Well, there's two problems: 1) Mechanically, one of the biggest advantages Warforged have is their immunity to energy drain. If a DM were to take that away, on the grounds that this were "special" energy drain, he might just get left with some irritated players. 2) More fluff-wise, there are many, many, many more coffins in the world than creation forges. Which is to say, there are two written into the setting by default, and no other known ones. Coffins, by contrast, are quite common. It's just a little hard to imagine either Cannith or the Lord of Blades not noticing an undead Warforged haunting their forges, and it's even harder to imagine either of them being thrilled at the prospect. Coffins are also give Vampires a wider effective range, being both common and moderately mobile. Creation Forges are completely immobile, and would tie such a creature to its immediate location.
okaynowa 01-04-07, 08:44 AM	Said ArcTan: Enh. In my opinion he should be thinking a little bit about both.Quite so. My position is that this particular player already has had tons of exposure to things like Asimov, The Terminator... Short Circuit. I'm trying to broaden his palette. The noir aspects of Eberron he has down just fine-- but it's up to us as DM and player to figure out how warforged in general and Middle Bulwark Second Tier in particular are portrayed in our campaign. Said aechean:My main reason for doing this is to show that a warforged is just as alive as the other races. If a warforged has free will, then in my opinion, it is alive, and that will could be subverted.An interesting proposition-- corruptibility as proof of life. Not physical corruption (kind of tough for a warforged), but spiritual/mental corruption. My immediate question would be, how does a fiend begin to tempt a warforged?
Shady314 01-04-07, 09:26 AM	Said ArcTan: Quite so. My position is that this particular player already has had tons of exposure to things like Asimov, The Terminator... Short Circuit. I'm trying to broaden his palette. The noir aspects of Eberron he has down just fine-- but it's up to us as DM and player to figure out how warforged in general and Middle Bulwark Second Tier in particular are portrayed in our campaign. Said aechean:An interesting proposition-- corruptibility as proof of life. Not physical corruption (kind of tough for a warforged), but spiritual/mental corruption. My immediate question would be, how does a fiend begin to tempt a warforged? How does a fiend NOT tempt a race that is 33 years old, generally naive and completely lacking in social ability, struggling to find their place/purpose in life? ;) LOB is doing a fine job of it so far.
okaynowa 01-04-07, 09:38 AM	Fiend: Have I got a deal for you, my adamantium ally who's fun to be with! Warforged: Okay, shoot. Fiend: In exchange for a small consideration, I offer you... five-hundred galifars worth of pudding! Warforged: And what am I supposed to do with that? Fiend: Whatever you want. That's the beauty of it! Warforged: I don't even know if I like chocolate... or if what I'm experiencing as "chocolate" is the same as what others-- Fiend: Whoa, whoa, slow down there, philosopher. Like I said, you can do anything with this pudding. You don't just have to eat it. You can make a pudding golem. You can give it away to all the kids in the village, thereby starting a holiday tradition. You can put it in a vat, get a friend, and start a spectator sport. Warforged: Where did you even get 500 galifars worth of pudding? Fiend: [finger before lips] Shhhhhhh!
Shady314 01-04-07, 09:43 AM	No No No you always give them a little taste first! The free sample is how you hook them. Obviously! ;)
yossarius 01-04-07, 05:48 PM	Were I to create some kind of undead wareforged, I don't think it would be a vampire. As cool as vampires are, in both a literary and game-mechanical sense, I just don't think that coolness would translate well from human to warforged. What makes vampires so great is that they are horrific. Not simply because they drink blood (although that is certainly not to be underestimated), but because they are the pinnacle of night creatures. They are the masters of the night, which is of course the time when all good people are asleep, and most vulnerable. It is this preying on others while they are so vulnerable that lends vampires their horrific nature, I think. Warforged don't sleep, and thus would not find vampires so horrific. If I were to create some kind of undead warforged, I think it would be some kind of ghoul. Instead of literally feeding on the living, they would be driven to kill other warforged, disassemble their inert bodies, and reassemble them as new warforged ghouls. The ghouls would be rather poorly assembled, held together more by negative energy than by any clever artifice. Considering the amount of care warforged must take to keep their bodies in functioning service, I think maybe they might find such a creature horrific in the same way that we regard vampires, in that the WFGs defile what it means to be warforged at its most basic level. Where vampires profane humanity by shunning the light, WFGs profane the mechanical elegance wrought by the creation forges. Over the next day or so, I'll consider what a write-up for the WFG should be, and post it, if anyone is interested.
yrogerg 01-04-07, 06:51 PM	Were I to create some kind of undead wareforged, I don't think it would be a vampire. As cool as vampires are, in both a literary and game-mechanical sense, I just don't think that coolness would translate well from human to warforged. What makes vampires so great is that they are horrific. Not simply because they drink blood (although that is certainly not to be underestimated), but because they are the pinnacle of night creatures. They are the masters of the night, which is of course the time when all good people are asleep, and most vulnerable. It is this preying on others while they are so vulnerable that lends vampires their horrific nature, I think. Warforged don't sleep, and thus would not find vampires so horrific. If I were to create some kind of undead warforged, I think it would be some kind of ghoul. Instead of literally feeding on the living, they would be driven to kill other warforged, disassemble their inert bodies, and reassemble them as new warforged ghouls. The ghouls would be rather poorly assembled, held together more by negative energy than by any clever artifice. Considering the amount of care warforged must take to keep their bodies in functioning service, I think maybe they might find such a creature horrific in the same way that we regard vampires, in that the WFGs defile what it means to be warforged at its most basic level. Where vampires profane humanity by shunning the light, WFGs profane the mechanical elegance wrought by the creation forges. Over the next day or so, I'll consider what a write-up for the WFG should be, and post it, if anyone is interested. I was actually thinking something similar, today; for me, the whole literally consuming the blood or flesh of the living seemed to make much less sense for a WF, so a literal vampire didn't seem like a good fit. (For that matter, the otherworldly, hypnotic charm that lets them Dominate creatures seems rather at-odds with the WF, as well.) But, here were my thoughts: -The malevolent force that inhabits the "hungry" undead (as I like to call Ghouls, Vampires, and other such) be it an evil spirit or Negative Energy, is violently hungry, and needs to constantly feed on life energy to avoid driving the undead creature to insanity . LM pretty much says as much. -For these hungry undead, part of this hunger takes the form of a craving for the literal substance of the living. -The strictly canon explanation surrounding WF and consumable items -that they spit out the non-magical portions after absorbing the magic- suggests that even if they wanted to, they would not be able to consume non-magical food. If we take for granted that the life force energy cannot be drawn out of flesh or blood like a potion (which can really go either way, honestly), a WF would make a very unhappy standard vampire. Given all that, this was my thought: If one of the malevolent forces that inhabits these hungry undead *did* find its way into a Warforged body, the results would not be pretty. I would picture a an Unforged being a vicious, violent, frenzied creature, driven completely insane by a hunger it cannot do anything for, rending and tearing apart any living creature it can find with its bare hands, but unable to feed, and unable to fend off the deepening madness. My other thought was that a rare such Unforged might actually find a desperate way, before being fully consumed by its own hunger, to sustain itself. Such an Unforged (Deathforged?) might have gouged out a piece of its own form, and crudely embedded a Kyber shard there. Souls of creatures that this creature killed could then captured in this shard like a Soul Gem, and the Whateverforged could gradually consume them. For Players, this effect would be a lot like the Death Giant's soul-stealing ability, except that if they delay too long (say, a week or two), the soul is fully consumed, and un-returnable. Heck, for that matter, any delay at all could result in a partially consumed soul, if, for example, you're looking for an excuse to include some stuff from HoH.
yrogerg 01-04-07, 06:53 PM	No No No you always give them a little taste first! The free sample is how you hook them. Obviously! ;) Well, besides, how else do you know whether it's pure?
ArcTan 01-04-07, 07:51 PM	My main reason for doing this is to show that a warforged is just as alive as the other races. If a warforged has free will, then in my opinion, it is alive, and that will could be subverted. If you combine an artificer and a necromancer, you could get an undead warforged (IMO). Maybe this warforged only feeds on the energy of other warforged and is bound to a creation forge instead of a coffin? Well, for one thing, warforged *aren't* as alive as other races. That's the point of warforged -- they lack many of the crucial qualities of a living thing, which is what makes them so durable and useful as slaves. This is the point of the whole deal with being unable to detect a soul in a warforged or track a warforged soul in Dolurrh. My take on this isn't that warforged aren't as ensouled as other races -- but that they aren't alive in quite the same way. There's something twisted and weird about them. The way in which a warforged soul interfaces with a warforged body is *not* the same natural, fundamental force that ties a human soul to his body. There's something fishy there. And it really should be very, very fishy. The true nature of the warforged race, and the method of operation of the Creation Forges, is one of the big, dark secrets of the setting. How to mess with that and manipulate it enough to subvert the kind of life a warforged has -- it should be possible, perhaps, but a big secret requiring huge amounts of power to uncover. *Not* something as boring and mundane as saying you can make a warforged analogue of a vampire just by using an artificer rather than a necromancer. Not that human necromancers are responsible for the existence of vampires, anyway, or the vast majority of undead -- most of the most powerful undead are self-created or created by the nature of the world, not by human agency. This is what's scary about them -- undeath is a creepy result of some innate perversion of the way the world works, not something mages created -- only something mages can, at their peril, try to control. For a new kind of construct/undead to come into the world would require an entirely new thing to be created, and that's out of the range of ordinary mages. Maybe some massive conspiracy on the part of the Lord of Blades or the Blood of Vol or both. Maybe.