Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Titanic Ego 03-20-06, 10:17 PM	Bob the Balor has a grudge against the Church of the Silver Flame, owing to his imprisonment by a Church wizard several hundred years ago, but he has just been released thanks to a wish spell from a pit fiend colleague. Now he is out for revenge and plans to lay waste to Thrane, destroying the kingdom's major cities and destroying Jaela and the Keep. Bob's resources: 1. An efreeti sorceror on Fernia is ready to offer plane shift spells for Bob to return to Eberron if he is banished or slain (if slain it will take him at least a week to reform, per Keith's article.) 2. He can dominate monster with a DC of 27, allowing him to acquire several hundred slaves per hour if he can work steadily, and hold them for several weeks before he needs to renew his control. If he spends several hours a day maintaining control he can amass quite a horde of slaves. 3. He can cast blasphemy at will, killing everyone level 10 or lower (pretty much everyone in Eberron) within 40 feet, while paralyzing higher level characters (except Jaela and a handful of high level warriors/experts who would have their own problems facing off against a balor), all without a saving throw. Silver flame clerics and paladins will be affected by this regardless of alignment. 4. SR 28 nullifies most targeted spells. Acid resistance 10 takes care of acid arrow, cold resistance 10 comes in handy, plus fire, lightning, and poison immunity. 5. With unholy aura up an AC of 39 means enemies will be hitting only on a natural 20. 'Aid another' is of little use because if you are close enough to do a coordinated physical attack you are close enough for a blasphemy. 6. Greater dispel magic cracks any wards or buffs. 7. True seeing p[revents illusion or invisibility use for a sneak attack. 8. Flight and teleport means Bob can teleport behind an army and start dominating people to your great chagrin. 9. Damage reduction 15 means your arrows have to be cold iron and good-aligned to have a shot. 10. A well-prepared formation of archers or mages faces a fire storm, wiping out 40 10-foot-cubes from 300 feet away. 11. Anyone who somehow gets close without getting blasphemied is going to be cleaved out of existence by some ferocious melee attacks. 12. We'll let him procure rings of invisibility and regeneration. So Bob starts his campaign in some minor Thranish village, and starts using blasphemy left and right. He uses dominate monster on evil humans unaffected by his blasphemy attacks and gather a fair-sized armed force. He then takes his force towards a nearby fort or other military installation, using the minions as human shields, wiping out spellcasters with quickened telekinesis, blasphemy, or implosion and generally raising hell while acquiring more minions. Arriving at a major city he draws his forces a moderate distance from the walls, and flies to an enormous height, well out of spell or arrow range. Spotting areas with few defenders, he teleports in to start fires, lay down a blasphemy or two, and dominate some locals to cause havoc. He also uses his telekinesis to throw objects for 15d6 points of damage from 1200 feet in the air, clearing holes among the defenders at the wall while his forces attack the gap. Using telekinesis our balor can kill over a thousand defenders an hour, more if he teleports into clumps of defenders for blasphemy attacks. Within a day the city is in flames, its defenders slaughtered or enslaved. Meanwhile, the Thranish army, stiffened with wizards, magewrights with eternal wands, and clerics of the Flame is moving to intercept the balor's horde of slaves. As the thousands of minions are beginning to stretch the balor's ability to maintain control, he will not be able to match the Thranish force in sheer numbers, so he decides on a terror/attrition campaign to weaken the Thranish force on its way. Teleporting to the rear of the approaching army and unleashing slaughter, TKing troops from 3/4 of a mile in the air, etc he can kill thousands by the time the enemy reaches his horde of minions. Any flying cavalry or wizards will be dominated or TKed, while a massed unit (fly wands perhaps) will be picked off from a distance with Tk or engaged with greater dispel magic (to Bob's great amusement as the puny mortals plummet to their deaths). If matters get too fierce the balor will just teleport to the other side fo the army column and engage in some slaughter, teleporting away again as his foes pursue. By the time the two forces meet the match is far more even, and the balor can lend magical support as the mutual slaughter proceeds. Even if the minions are slain, he can begin again in some other village, or just continue sniping. A few weeks later most of the Thranish forces lie dead, Kaius is pressing on the borders and Bob moves to Flamekeep to face Jaela and the elite of the Church. Jaela might try to hit Bob with a holy word to banish him, but given Bob's +19 will save and unholy aura she has perhaps a 20% chance of success, half that once SR is considered, and would be within range of a implosion/dominate/firestorm/TK attack. Summoned allies will get dominated or slain. Even if all the gathered might of Flamekeep can kill Bob, Jaela can't cast soul bind or imprisonment, so he will just return for more in a week or so. Am I wrong, or is there nothing to stop a single CR 20 fiend from Fernia from laying waste to all the human nations in succession, barring intervention by the LoD, dragons, the Dreaming Dark, or some other planar beings? Without such a deus ex machina how can the humans possibly defeat such a creature? He can safely attack from beyond the range of his opponents if need be, and his SR and AC mean that he can enter any but the largest enemy units safely in order to Cleave and blasphemy them out of existence. The dominated minions allow him to sidestep any number of situations, and his other abilities also help to nullify all the obvious stratagems.
Edymnion 03-20-06, 10:49 PM	Well, honestly, its the same sort of reasoning of "If a massive earthquake hit sharn and destroyed all the towers, could anybody really stop it?". The very problem itself is dues ex machina to a degree, because its not something that would normally happen. However, it would be a good thing to do to challenge an appropriate level party. In which case, the answer would obviously be "The PCs will stop him". Otherwise, no, there realy isn't anything that would stop epic level creatures from destroying the world if you take the stance of "if all of the other epic level guys don't get involved". Of course, it would never happen for the simple reason that it would devistate the entire setting and make it pretty much worthless to play in (unless you just really like post-apocolyptic gaming), and I don't really know any DMs that would destroy the world when there was no real hope of preventing it. It really tends to tick the players off that their lvl 2 adventure was interrupted by the entire continent blowing up. But, if you want to be realistic about it, yes, the Dreaming Dark would probably fight the demon. They fear drastic change because they think it will turn the wheel of the ages. A demon destroying half of Khovaire would definately qualify as drastic change, meaning that balor would have some epic level dream monsters bearing down on it. And seeing as how all of the Dragonmarked beings in the world come from Khovaire, you can bet the Dragons would get involved, seeing as he's tearing down the whiteboard containing a big chunk of the Prophesy. Plus the Lords of Dust would get involved, because well, they want the place for themselves. So, realistically speaking, the people that would stop him would be the same people that could rival him. Its the same reason these sort of things *DON'T* happen in Eberron. All of the most powerful beings realize that there is a delicate balance of power, and that if any one of them steps out to try anything overt, that the rest of the setting powerhouses are going to band together (formally or not) to smack them back down. Its also the reason these guys don't pester the PCs until they're high enough level to fight back, because until then, the PCs aren't a threat to the balance of power. Once they are though, everybody comes out of the woodworks to try and smack them back down.
Belabras 03-20-06, 10:52 PM	Sounds like a job for some likely PCs. Seriously, that's exactly the sort of thing that a mid to high level Eberron campaign is made of.
igotsmeakabob!! 03-20-06, 11:15 PM	I was going to say 'Some adventurers battle their way to him and kill him, especially if one is a Truenamer.' But Edy hit the nail on the head. And that's the stuff of high-level Eberron adventures. No more mystery-solving in Sharn, time to go save Khorvaire.
Titanic Ego 03-20-06, 11:52 PM	I am aware of the balance of power issues involved, but I would really love to hear people's ideas for Eberron mortals to use their greater numbers, magical economy, etc to somehow get Bob without using near epic PCs. Say a party of 11th-13th level PCs, working with the local Dragonmark houses, elite Thranish commandos, teams of mid-low level spellcasters, and large numbers of magewrights/grunts. What clever tactics could they use? Here's a possible coup de grace: flesh to stone, a 6th level spell that could be created in scroll form by an 11th level artificer. The problem is that it requires a Fort Save at DC 10+6+key ability bonus while the balor has a +22 Fort bonus, not to mention SR. If you could use undead to damage/drain his constitution down to 1, you would reduce that to a +7 bonus, which would give better than even odds if you could penetrate SR. Giving him 19 negative levels and a load of STR damage and then chaining him up might be another option. 19 negative levels could get saves down for a Helm of opposite alignment (which could be produced), or an iron flask (which would have to be found). Fly wands might be helpful, but the balor is faster and can teleport (expeditious retreat?) Could you do anything with the 120 foot range for true seeing? A dimensional anchor's range is greater than that, but he can dispel the dimensional anchor on his next action. Etc, etc, etc. I really want to hear your ideas for mid-high level PCs with massive backing to take out outsiders.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 12:02 AM	Bob the Balor has a grudge against the Church of the Silver Flame, owing to his imprisonment by a Church wizard several hundred years ago, but he has just been released thanks to a wish spell from a pit fiend colleague. Now he is out for revenge and plans to lay waste to Thrane, destroying the kingdom's major cities and destroying Jaela and the Keep. I wonder if fiends keep their traditional alignments in Eberron (unlike most other creatures). If so, a pit fiend wouldn't work with a balor. But that's easy enough to fix by finding another fiend or just making the pit fiend "weird". Bob's resources: 1. An efreeti sorceror on Fernia is ready to offer plane shift spells for Bob to return to Eberron if he is banished or slain (if slain it will take him at least a week to reform, per Keith's article.) 2. He can dominate monster with a DC of 27, allowing him to acquire several hundred slaves per hour if he can work steadily, and hold them for several weeks before he needs to renew his control. If he spends several hours a day maintaining control he can amass quite a horde of slaves. I always thought that was a broken spell due to its duration, especially if you can use it at will! But it's an integral part of the strategy and doesn't bother me too much. 3. He can cast blasphemy at will, killing everyone level 10 or lower (pretty much everyone in Eberron) within 40 feet, while paralyzing higher level characters (except Jaela and a handful of high level warriors/experts who would have their own problems facing off against a balor), all without a saving throw. Silver flame clerics and paladins will be affected by this regardless of alignment. And this is an even more broken spell. So broken I think you should consider trading it for another spell. I mean really, why not just have Jaela summon a solar or other powerful good aligned outsider to smack his behind while we're trading out cheese like this? 4. SR 28 nullifies most targeted spells. Acid resistance 10 takes care of acid arrow, cold resistance 10 comes in handy, plus fire, lightning, and poison immunity. 5. With unholy aura up an AC of 39 means enemies will be hitting only on a natural 20. 'Aid another' is of little use because if you are close enough to do a coordinated physical attack you are close enough for a blasphemy. Unless the heroes are 20th-level, of course. IME, a 20th-level fighter or barbarian can hit a pit fiend (AC 40+ when buffed) half the time on their first attack. But I get your point. (I still say Blasphemy is horribly broken, though.) 6. Greater dispel magic cracks any wards or buffs. 7. True seeing p[revents illusion or invisibility use for a sneak attack. 8. Flight and teleport means Bob can teleport behind an army and start dominating people to your great chagrin. 9. Damage reduction 15 means your arrows have to be cold iron and good-aligned to have a shot. 10. A well-prepared formation of archers or mages faces a fire storm, wiping out 40 10-foot-cubes from 300 feet away. 11. Anyone who somehow gets close without getting blasphemied is going to be cleaved out of existence by some ferocious melee attacks. Unless they're high level. But yes, I get your point. (And Blasphemy is hella broken.) 12. We'll let him procure rings of invisibility and regeneration. Good heavens! So Bob starts his campaign in some minor Thranish village, and starts using blasphemy left and right. He uses dominate monster on evil humans unaffected by his blasphemy attacks and gather a fair-sized armed force. He then takes his force towards a nearby fort or other military installation, using the minions as human shields, wiping out spellcasters with quickened telekinesis, blasphemy, or implosion and generally raising hell while acquiring more minions. He can Dominate so many creatures he can hardly track them all. (If he sends an army to point A, he may take some time getting back to them and then Dominating every last one of them.) I don't think he could raise a force that could seriously rival the Thranish force. But of course, with his nasty attack capabilities, he doesn't really need the army to be all that capable. Arriving at a major city he draws his forces a moderate distance from the walls, and flies to an enormous height, well out of spell or arrow range. Spotting areas with few defenders, he teleports in to start fires, lay down a blasphemy or two, and dominate some locals to cause havoc. He also uses his telekinesis to throw objects for 15d6 points of damage from 1200 feet in the air, clearing holes among the defenders at the wall while his forces attack the gap. Using telekinesis our balor can kill over a thousand defenders an hour, more if he teleports into clumps of defenders for blasphemy attacks. Within a day the city is in flames, its defenders slaughtered or enslaved. Yuppers. Meanwhile, the Thranish army, stiffened with wizards, magewrights with eternal wands, and clerics of the Flame is moving to intercept the balor's horde of slaves. As the thousands of minions are beginning to stretch the balor's ability to maintain control, he will not be able to match the Thranish force in sheer numbers, so he decides on a terror/attrition campaign to weaken the Thranish force on its way. Teleporting to the rear of the approaching army and unleashing slaughter, TKing troops from 3/4 of a mile in the air, etc he can kill thousands by the time the enemy reaches his horde of minions. Any flying cavalry or wizards will be dominated or TKed, while a massed unit (fly wands perhaps) will be picked off from a distance with Tk or engaged with greater dispel magic (to Bob's great amusement as the puny mortals plummet to their deaths). If matters get too fierce the balor will just teleport to the other side fo the army column and engage in some slaughter, teleporting away again as his foes pursue. *Snicker* Bob's allowed to have fun. By the time the two forces meet the match is far more even, and the balor can lend magical support as the mutual slaughter proceeds. Even if the minions are slain, he can begin again in some other village, or just continue sniping. A few weeks later most of the Thranish forces lie dead, Kaius is pressing on the borders and Bob moves to Flamekeep to face Jaela and the elite of the Church. Jaela might try to hit Bob with a holy word to banish him, but given Bob's +19 will save and unholy aura she has perhaps a 20% chance of success, half that once SR is considered, and would be within range of a implosion/dominate/firestorm/TK attack. Why would she cast such a lame spell? (Well actually, it's usually just as broken as Blasphemy.) Just use implosion already. Then go down the list - destruction is another good one. With weeks of warning, she could prepare decent combat spells. Including miracle and gate. Summoned allies will get dominated or slain. Even if all the gathered might of Flamekeep can kill Bob, Jaela can't cast soul bind or imprisonment, so he will just return for more in a week or so. Am I wrong, or is there nothing to stop a single CR 20 fiend from Fernia from laying waste to all the human nations in succession, barring intervention by the LoD, dragons, the Dreaming Dark, or some other planar beings? Without such a deus ex machina how can the humans possibly defeat such a creature? He can safely attack from beyond the range of his opponents if need be, and his SR and AC mean that he can enter any but the largest enemy units safely in order to Cleave and blasphemy them out of existence. The dominated minions allow him to sidestep any number of situations, and his other abilities also help to nullify all the obvious stratagems. Well, gee, balors don't attack Eberron on a daily or even millenial basis, one should hope. It's a high level, world shattering event. If the heroes aren't around, some other good aligned NPCs (there are some, just not available in ridiculous quantities like in certain campaign settings I won't name) would show up and intervene, weekly if need be, and bearing borrowed House [everything] Dragonmark Focus items and what have you. I would suggest not using this even if the heroes aren't high level, as it means some other NPCs are going to steal their glory. PS dragons and the Deathless Court can count as allies. (Yikes!) Thrane would owe some huge favors to get help from Aerenal, but they could get some. Getting dragons to help is extremely unlikely, but one wonders if a bunch of dragons would show up a couple of days early, because they saw something moving among Siberys' shards.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 12:17 AM	dp. I'm thinking a bunch of mid-level heroes (especially with NPC gear) would have a really hard time beating him down. Short of deus ex machina (let's go get that powerful magic item from Frostfell that can easily beat him) it's going to be very hard. I would suggest the heroes enlist a mid-level cleric. The cleric can use magic circle against evil and he and the party can ambush the balor and smack it down. Tell me, does the balor constantly sense magic? No? Then while the balor may not be caught by surprise (due to very high Listen/Spot scores), there are lots of situations where it might not immediately be able to dispel/kill the heroes right away.
Titanic Ego 03-21-06, 12:27 AM	[QUOTE=(Psi)SeveredHead]I wonder if fiends keep their traditional alignments in Eberron (unlike most other creatures). If so, a pit fiend wouldn't work with a balor. But that's easy enough to fix by finding another fiend or just making the pit fiend "weird". Pit fiends and balors are both natives of Fernia, and not involved in the War of Shavarath, so I postulated that some are allies. Why would she cast such a lame spell? (Well actually, it's usually just as broken as Blasphemy.) Just use implosion already. Then go down the list - destruction is another good one. With weeks of warning, she could prepare decent combat spells. Including miracle and gate. Jaela is only a 16th level caster in Flamekeep. If she could gate she would win (and the solar could cast imprisonment to make the victory permanent). If she could cast 9th level spells she could cast soul bind herself. Well, gee, balors don't attack Eberron on a daily or even millenial basis, one should hope. The annoying thing about balors is that their abilities are at will and so damn good against low level groups. A beholder can disintegrate at will, but it has to get in range of archers, who can kill it reasonably quickly. A rakshasa sorceror can cause a lot of trouble, but it will run out of spells soon enough. A dragon can be pounded with telekinetically thrown objects, dropped boulders, and masses of acid arrows. Illithid mind blasts allow saves, so some lucky soldiers will get in close enough to start slicing. Etc. It just seems that the two great fiends of Fernia are superbly adapted to obliterating Khorvaire. That caster level 20 and 1200 foot range (for TK and fireballs, depending on the fiend) is just too vicious.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 12:33 AM	Jaela is only a 16th level caster in Flamekeep. If she could gate she would win (and the solar could cast imprisonment to make the victory permanent). If she could cast 9th level spells she could cast soul bind herself. No, she's 18th. It says so in the ECS and Five Nations. But yeah, lots of people (including myself, before) said 16th. Maybe it says 16th in one part of the ECS and 18th in another. I'd say 18th, just because two sources say so. Maybe Jaela would prepare Soul Bind, but only after beating the balor the first time, then facing him a second time. ("What? You again?") Then the third time she'd be wise to the trick. Or maybe casting commune will let her talk to a deva who'll tell her what to do. The annoying thing about balors is that their abilities are at will and so damn good against low level groups. No, they're not annoying. Not if you're the DM. If it annoys you, why would you use one?
RagingDemon 03-21-06, 03:44 AM	i wouldn' t like to see "poor" bob rolling a critical on a party' s member... actually i think that there is little to no way you can stop him if you are under 13 lvl. don' t forget that he can teleport... he can also summon another balor and and play "two balor ante" or such. i suspect that it would come down to dragons, LoD and DD to stop it. and if it would be my thing to choose, i' d go with the rakshasas... they' re so damn "cute". a group of mind flayer alhoons 13 lvl wizards worshipped by the cultists of the dragon below could also stop him as i think they' re CR 19 (12 lvl sorcerer alhoon is CR 18). Their SR is 38 compared to the "mere" 28 of the balor' s. a solar may also come to assist jaela. if the solar comes, then our beloved bob is pretty much doomed unless he teleports (silly solars...). Our dear Thondbed could also provide great help :) by the way since complete arcane came out, SR has never really bothered me much. just use a wand of orb of force (infused to maximize it or burn extra charges to do so) or assay resistance and you' ll be fine. also, what wizard would you be if you did not get these nice spell penetration and greater spell penetration feats... The annoying thing about balors is that their abilities are at will and so damn good against low level groups. A beholder can disintegrate at will, but it has to get in range of archers, who can kill it reasonably quickly. A rakshasa sorceror can cause a lot of trouble, but it will run out of spells soon enough. A dragon can be pounded with telekinetically thrown objects, dropped boulders, and masses of acid arrows. Illithid mind blasts allow saves, so some lucky soldiers will get in close enough to start slicing. finally they're CR 20!!! one would be idiot to have a 11 lvl party kill a balor... also, no offense, but i don' t find these examples good strategies to mess with the above creatures. if u just used them as examples then ok.
Rechan 03-21-06, 05:22 AM	Could someone explain to me the point of this exercise? Is this for your campaign, or is this just a "What if"? Because thusfar it seems like a "What-if" and it is just as extranious as "So, if the Tarrasque wakes up, and there's no high level PCs to stop it, and none of the high rolling baddies stop it, can it be stopped?"
Titanic Ego 03-21-06, 05:33 AM	Could someone explain to me the point of this exercise? Is this for your campaign, or is this just a "What if"? Because thusfar it seems like a "What-if" and it is just as extranious as "So, if the Tarrasque wakes up, and there's no high level PCs to stop it, and none of the high rolling baddies stop it, can it be stopped?" I'm planning on the release of some sort of nasty outsider that is not so intrinsically opposed to life and Eberron that it can't be bought off, or intimidated enough to make a deal to placate it. As I was thinking about candidates it occurred to me that these two fiends were just ridiculously hard to take on using mass tactics. Even if I don't use Bob in-campaign I think the world would be more internally consistent if his success was not inevitable.
Kid SixXx 03-21-06, 05:53 AM	Because thusfar it seems like a "What-if" and it is just as extranious as "So, if the Tarrasque wakes up, and there's no high level PCs to stop it, and none of the high rolling baddies stop it, can it be stopped?" I tend to agree with your line of logic. If Bob the Balor is released & no one is around to stop it, then people in Thrane will die. The Thranish military could no more stop a demon that powerful than FEMA could prevent Hurricane Katrina from making landfall. Sadly, Eberron doesn't work on the FR "Green Lantern" policy where Regional Hero Group #12A-Sigma flies in to deal with the menace. I recently had a "discussion" on the FR boards about this very same topic of "alleged overpowered settings vs. alleged static settings." (i.e. From a certain perspective, the FR = "When micromanagement of setting details & game lore masquerades as fun." There were days in my FR career when I wasn't sure if I was DMing the setting, or if the setting was DMing me. Even so, the FR is still a finely crafted setting that still enjoys top-notch development, because its fans are smart enough & rabid enough to hold the devs feet to the fire on every project..) Of course, the short answer to this is that if Thrane is in that much peril, the Silver Flame itself might act to stop the Balor. If the Flame can hold the Rajahs of the Rakshasa at bay, one Balor won't be a match for it. Even more reasonable, if members of the Chamber felt that Thrane's existance was paramount to the Prophesy, then a score of angry elder wyrms would have issue with Bob the Balor & remind Bob just who beat who the last time fiends confronted dragons. Naturally, the dragons wouldn't defend Thrane just because they felt benevolent; they'd be angry because Bob monkeyed around with their calculations. I suppose the next question would be "What if some members of the Chamber felt that Thrane's destruction was necessary for the Prophesy to be fulfilled?" And the answer to that is, "No one knows that answer," but it's safe to assume that if Thrane's destruction was indeed necessary, Thrane would have been leveled by now.... or later if Thrane's destruction is necessary for a future event. Perhaps, the dragons would even stop Bob simply because the dragons felt that the Prophesy demanded that dragons (or perhaps another agent of ruin) destroy Thrane instead of Bob? All things happen in their proper season.
Rechan 03-21-06, 05:56 AM	Even if I don't use Bob in-campaign I think the world would be more internally consistent if his success was not inevitable. But you're ruling out the inevitable involvement of the Dragons, the native Fiends, or the DD. Either (Or all three) have no desire to see Bob succeed. I'd say the LoD because it's their turf and Bob is screwing their plans. The Dragons because it's a fiend invasion, as for the DD, see the LoD. Either of these groups have the power to go stomp Bob, moreover the former two. Not to mention any artifacts left over from the age of Demons that could womp on Bob. It's inconsistent of the setting to remove the badguys involvement. Just as it's inconsistent to say, in FR, "Well what would stop x from taking over the underdark?" If you completely disregarded the Drow's stronghold grip on the Underdark. The only thing between the Big Bad Guy Groups and world domination is the PCs. That's the whole point. Saying "This isn't realistic" is sort've backwards compatible with D&D. :)
Kid SixXx 03-21-06, 07:40 AM	Saying "This isn't realistic" is sort've backwards compatible with D&D. :) Short of things like gravity working properly and the like, I'm not sure why there is such a clamor about the desire for "realism," as in "It's not realistic that the PC's should be the premier heroes (or only heroes if your DM is so inclined) of the setting." Is there anything terribly "realistic" about what happens in a fantasy setting anyway, such as an evil outsider destroying a city? Speaking of outsiders, I'm a little puzzled as to why a Pit Fiend would waste a Wish to free a Balor, provided that a Wish would be sufficient to break dimensional bonds similar to the ones that keep the Rajahs at bay. Certainly just because the ECS isn't related to D&D planar issues doesn't mean that some event similar to the Blood War isn't playing itself out in Fernia? Naturally the issue of the conflict probably wouldn't be mortal souls since all souls go to Dolurrh anyway, but anything other reason would be fair game: it's not like demons or devils need an excuse to fight one another anyway.
Alratan 03-21-06, 08:13 AM	But you're ruling out the inevitable involvement of the Dragons, the native Fiends, or the DD. Either (Or all three) have no desire to see Bob succeed. I'd say the LoD because it's their turf and Bob is screwing their plans. The Dragons because it's a fiend invasion, as for the DD, see the LoD. I don't really see how these other power groups can stop Bob the Balor (chaotic evil nasty who kills because he wants to, for fun, so no motive not to do so). This is a creature with greater teleport at will. Even if all of these entities showed up simultaneously to confront him, they simply can't cover enough ground to prevent him destroying Thrane, the places is too big and they're too few. he can simply teleport in and start throwing down blasphemies and teleport somewhere else and do the same, and so on, and before long there isn't going to be a Thrane to save.
Rechan 03-21-06, 08:14 AM	Kid SixXx! You changed your icon! For shame. :P I just don't see a devil and a demon working together. Aside from the whole Blood War business, it's like a CG and an LG celestial working together; they just rub eachother the wrong way because they are greatly at opposite ends how to operate. Remember, outsiders are infused with their alignment; it's not fluid, it is literally that which makes them, just like an Elemental is made of the element they are born of. It is their very nature. The LG is all about LAW and the CG is all about "For the greater good!", and they're never going to get along. Same thing with the LE and CE fiends; the LE is never going to trust the Balor because he knows Balors are deceitful, betraying, and all together crazy, and the Balor isn't going to trust the Pit Fiend because he's a FRICKIN' BALOR and has no use for trust. A lot of D&D focuses on Good and Evil, but not enough on Law and Chaos, which are just as much at odds as good vs. evil. As Kid SixXx pointed out, it would be more convenient for a Pit Fiend to unleash a Rajah than it would a Balor. After all, the Rajahs are LE. The Pit Fiend could make a reasonable deal with them, and could work in the Pit Fiend's interests. Besides, a Rajah wouldn't go on a bloody rampage (well, except for that one Rajah in Keith's LoD article...) so, they would be a little more "Low key" and wouldn't draw the attention that a frickin BALOR destroying THRANE would.
Rechan 03-21-06, 08:15 AM	I don't really see how these other power groups can stop Bob the Balor (chaotic evil nasty who kills because he wants to, for fun, so no motive not to do so). This is a creature with greater teleport at will. Even if all of these entities showed up simultaneously to confront him, they simply can't cover enough ground to prevent him destroying Thrane, the places is too big and they're too few. he can simply teleport in and start throwing down blasphemies and teleport somewhere else and do the same, and so on, and before long there isn't going to be a Thrane to save. If that's the case, then really, what would stop a Balor? I mean, if the way you're playing it out, then no epic level PC could because he can port where ever he wants to go.
Alratan 03-21-06, 08:19 AM	If that's the case, then really, what would stop a Balor? I mean, if the way you're playing it out, then no epic level PC could because he can port where ever he wants to go. In most settings we have gods who can see the future in detail for weeks in advance, so wherever a balor tries to run to, its enemies already know where it's going. In many settings we also have far greater density of high level people, so there are many more people capable of casting dimensional anchor scattered about.
Kid SixXx 03-21-06, 08:21 AM	Kid SixXx! You changed your icon! For shame. :P My future party is beginning to solidify. A buddy of mine drafted his Soulknife first, so I had to assume the role of party rogue. :P I'll be a member of House Medani. Wish that DMarked sourcebook were coming out sooner.
Kid SixXx 03-21-06, 08:50 AM	and before long there isn't going to be a Thrane to save. *musters up best Aundarian accent* "You say that like it's a bad thing." ;) Of course that attitude amongst the Aundarians will change once Bob turns towards the Aundarian border.
Titanic Ego 03-21-06, 12:43 PM	A wish couldn't free a rajah, per Keith's article. Bob was imprisoned by a wizard, probably with a hedged prison binding. I'm not convinced that balors and pit fiends are really alignment exemplars per se. Rather, they embody different aspects of fire (which is hostile to flammable little mortals in the Eberron cosmology.) They are not intrinsically opposed in the way that the devils and demons of Shavarath are, they're fellow Fernians and we have no evidence of hostility. On the silliness of supposing no intervention from the LoD, dragons, and DD: balance of power among these great forces is the ultimate check against total devastation, sure. A mass attack by the LoD SHOULD annihilate all human life unless the dragons take action. But the wars with the Quori and daelkyr went on for centuries without major intervention from the other powers. Eventually some dragons gave magical lore whereby the mortal themselves could stop the invasions, but they were not willing to step in as soon as outsiders starting slaughtering. The system needs enough flexibility in the joints so that minor outsider incursions like Bob can be dealt with without LoD/Dragon intervention to avoid the sense of Elminster-like micromanagement. The Afghans would not have been able to kick out the Soviets without American help, but they were able to kill Soviet soldiers and were not complete pushovers. Khorvaire should be able to deal with CR 20 Bob, but not a cabal of his buddies invading en masse from Fernia or a 60 HD, effective Divine Rank 7 rajah of fire. IMHO, at least. At this point I am thinking that the best bet would be an ancient iron bottle combined with incorporeal energy draining undead, although that tactic might not go over well with the church. (Which is why I was thinking of Thrane, having all your clerics as members of a good religion and a big opposition to undead deprives you of options, and perhaps forces you into ethically questionable choices to survive.)
Kid SixXx 03-21-06, 12:52 PM	The system needs enough flexibility in the joints so that minor outsider incursions like Bob can be dealt with without LoD/Dragon intervention to avoid the sense of Elminster-like micromanagement. IIRC, your scenario had Bob tearing a hole through a major city and single-handedly wiping out entire units of the Thranish military. You have a strange definition of "minor outsider incursion." :D
DarkWarriorKarg 03-21-06, 12:56 PM	IIRC, your scenario had Bob tearing a hole through a major city and single-handedly wiping out entire units of the Thranish military. You have a strange definition of "minor outsider incursion." :D The Warforged Rangers, assembled by the Lord of Blades, unite into Megaforged, and soundly trounce him. The Bob the Balor sounds too much like a power rangers "Villain of the Season"...
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-21-06, 01:38 PM	The system needs enough flexibility in the joints so that minor outsider incursions like Bob Bob isn't a minor incursion.
Rechan 03-21-06, 02:41 PM	I'll be a member of House Medani. Wish that DMarked sourcebook were coming out sooner. Gooooo Medani! :D My fayvoright house.
Edymnion 03-21-06, 05:31 PM	Bob isn't a minor incursion.Well, relatively speaking he could be. I believe that several of the Rakshasa Lords are essentially Divine Rank 5+, which could easily make Bob look like small fry. There would be Dragons in Argonessan that are epic level (I believe the Red goes over CR 20 by the time it reaches Great Wyrm), and they could likely field a lot more epic dragons than Bob could field epic demons. Possibly a Dragon Ascendant or two. And then there are always eldritch machines that could seriously ramp up Vol's power. She's already got a plan for capturing the Tarrasque, so its possible she could raise and Undead Tarrasque to meet the threat with (that would be majorly nasty). Thrane guards the Silver Flame, which is also known as the Binding Flame, fueled by all of those couatles that sacrificed themselves, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to claim the Silver Flame could field some Celestial Couatles in their defense. Just because the big boys don't come out to play in Eberron very often doesn't mean they aren't there ;)
aelryinth 03-21-06, 08:14 PM	5 9th level Artificers stroll up towards Bob, and stop some 800' away. They look like anyone else in their light armor. He's at -40 on his Spot check to see them, anyways. They unlimber their wands of Empowered Lesser Force Orb, 8th level. By the gift of divinatory magic from the faith, they knew right where the demon is/will be, and House Orien could teleport them there quickly if need be. Jaela had a vision of the demon's coming, and it's only on step one of its goal of conquest...dominating innocents for an army. They cast Twin Spell Metamagic Infusion, and use Metamagic Spell Trigger to Quicken the Wands. When they are complete and can see the Balor still, they shoot. 75d6 worth of touch attack Force Orbs rocket out and take a hit against the Balor's Touch AC. An instant later, another 75d6 worth of them slam into the very startled Balor. If they win initiative the next round, repeat. The Balor blinks at the average 150d6 dmg (well, one might miss from each volley, lets say 120d6) for an average of 420 pts of force dmg, that ignores Energy resistance and SR. Bob goes home very suddenly. Unless he's summoned to the prime plane, its a hundred years and a day before he can return. He can't even plane shift back..he's barred. Sincerely ****** over what he's done, Jaela (who, I believe is level 18, not 16, in Flamekeep), uses a Gate spell to summon a solar to help her, while her underlings research the Balor's name. Doing so, and under the effects of a Necklace of Prayer Beads and Orange Ioun stone, Jaela summons the fiend up, and Imprisons it within the Silver Flame so it won't ever bother anything again. She could also Holy Word the heck out of the sucker with a casting level of 24... And Efreeti can only grant wishes to mortals, not other outsiders or the like. Oh, you thought Bob was going to be a problem? Silly man...the Flame protects all! And the next time a demon has the fun idea of picking on mortals, it thinks about Bob, who had the same idea and is nowhere to be found anymore. This could get even nastier if Jaela gives up one of her levels (oh, she goes from level 6 to 5...outside Flamekeep) and Redeems the fiend with Exalted magic. Suddenly Bob the Balor is Bob the Lawful Good Balor one year later. And Thrane has a new best friend willing to help it out against those nasty rakshasas. By my reckoning, she'd give up a level from level 6 to 5, get xp for defeating/converting a CR 24 threat, and get about what, 20K xp? Bing, 8th level. Please, bring on more Bobs. Jaela needs the free XP! ===Aelryinth
Korhal_IV 03-22-06, 11:30 AM	Aelryinth gave a nice example right there of how to do it. I'd also consider the fact that the Silver Flame's favored weapon is the longbow, and that the chuch should have no problem finding cold iron or good-aligned clerics. Now, if you play the Flame stupid, like in the OP's original example, yes, one implosion will wipe all the archers. But the nice thing about archery is that you don't need to be all bunched up. Thranish forces have fought spellcasters with area-of-effect before. It will be very easy for them to have warrior/expert types with decent Hide scores scattered through some side streets or groves when Bob the Balor comes strolling through looking for treasure, enemies, whatever. Of the thirty mid-level characters, equipped with Skill Focus: Hide, Cloaks of Elvenkind, and distance modifiers to Spot, most should be able to Hide again after sniping Bob, who will at the very least be critted a few times. Rinse and repeat as Bob runs around town futilely seeking these canny bastards - he'll nail quite a few of them, but they'll bring him down on numbers alone. There are also a few spells that can circumvent Bob's SR - Quickened Empowered Maximized Melf's Acid Arrow, followed by another Empowered Maximized Melf's Acid Arrow, plus Empowered Maximized Melf's Acid Arrow from the wand in the artificer's off-hand, and another two Empowered Maximized Melf's Acid Arrows from the feat that lets him use a wand twice in one round will burn through wands like nobody's business, but it will penetrate his acid resistance 10 by a significant amount every round - each Arrow does 13 damage per round, minus 10, so that's 15 damage/round, stackable on subsequent rounds (30 on the next round, 45 the round after that, 30 the round after that, etc). Assuming our artificer is employing a Scroll of Improved Invisibility and a Cloak of Elvenkind, and that he's smart enough to engage Bob from a medium distance (say 60-100 feet away - in a forest, down Main Street, wherever - Move Silently gains distance modifiers too), then Bob's going to be hurting by the time he's done with the pesky artificer. This is core-only, too, without going into the nastiness that can be done with Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture from Complete Arcane. There's other tricks to get around Bob's spell resistance. Wand Mastery gives you +2 caster level when wielding a wand, which stacks with the net +3 Cannith Wand Adept gives you. Assuming you can get a wand with a caster level of 10, that's a +15 to beat Bob's 28 SR, plus action points. Not a guarantee, but much better than impossible. Finally, if we assume that there's evil fiends who hate the Flame, then there should be good celestials that love the Flame. I'd assume at least one of them is willing to come down to help smack around Bob - throw in a planetar who engages Bob at the same time as the archers, or the artificer with Melf's, or both, and Bob is sunk. On a canonical note, even if Bob isn't involved in the war on Shavarath, we assume he's still got interests on Fernia. I think he'd be more immediately concerned with seeing if his palace hasn't been stolen and his possessions auctioned off or seized. Recovering his goodies will take him long enough for him to find other enemies besides the Flame.
talion09 03-22-06, 12:05 PM	Well, I thought of two off-beat ideas to beat Bob the Balor. 1. A Thranish champion (probably a CoTSF Paladin, right?) could draw Tira's sword from the Silver Flame and than proceed to slay Bob with this mighty artifact.... of course, this would also have the effect of loosing the demon bound by Tira within the Flame to begin with, so Jaela would have to work some magic to keep said demon bound and in place for however long it took to slay Bob and get the sword back to Flamekeep. 2. Depending on your version of what caused the Mourning, someone could proceed to wipe out Bob (and all of Thrane) with another Mourning Effect. Sure, Thrane is now a wasteland and overland travel is totally impossible across the middle of the continent, but now the other powers don't have to worry about either the CotSF or Bob the Balor. Problem solved (unless you are Thranish or had relatives there)
Pinky's brain 03-22-06, 12:36 PM	With enough preperations and money (which the church of the silver flame has) you can kill anything except for a god.
Pinky's brain 03-22-06, 12:39 PM	Good archers can shoot from further away than 300 feet. Personally though Id just use some of the church's resources to buy a scroll of planeshift and a scroll of gate. I haven't read Keith's article, so you might need a special way to kill him after gating him so he can't reform ... but that isn't a big problem.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-22-06, 01:04 PM	Scrolls of Gate are kind of ... rare on Eberron. There aren't enough high level spellcasters to support such an economy. You'd have to find a high level spellcaster who isn't busy and has at least three days to devote to spending life essence (XP) on making a scroll. You need a high Diplomacy score... higher if the only person you can find willing to make the scroll is Vol!
DarkWarriorKarg 03-22-06, 01:18 PM	Scrolls of Gate are kind of ... rare on Eberron. There aren't enough high level spellcasters to support such an economy. You'd have to find a high level spellcaster who isn't busy and has at least three days to devote to spending life essence (XP) on making a scroll. You need a high Diplomacy score... higher if the only person you can find willing to make the scroll is Vol! Jaela, sitting in Flamekeep, with artificers furnishing the "scribe scroll" feat (Actually, I think she has it anyway)
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-22-06, 03:59 PM	Jaela can cast the spell by herself; why bother with a scroll? Well, relatively speaking he could be [a minor incursion] I have to disagree. Bob the balor has the same CR as a tarrasque. The tarrasque waking up isn't a daily event, just like a balor breaking the planar boundaries and coming to Eberron isn't common, either.
DarkWarriorKarg 03-22-06, 04:23 PM	Jaela can cast the spell by herself; why bother with a scroll? She can't leave the SF. Sure, she can gate in a solar at the SF But the scrolls can leave. Put them in the hands of artificers, or highly experienced magic-wielders (Elite array, Expert 6th, 16 Cha, take UMD as 1 of the 10 skills, Skill Focus: UMD + Magical Aptitude,, Decipher Script at at least 5 ranks, UMD +17 (+19 with scrolls), needs 10 or better to activate), get a dozen Solars to show up.
Quoriil 03-22-06, 04:49 PM	I have to disagree. Bob the balor has the same CR as a tarrasque. The tarrasque waking up isn't a daily event, just like a balor breaking the planar boundaries and coming to Eberron isn't common, either. And yet Bob and the Tarasque together would still be a relatively "minor" incursion compared to a trimvurate of irritated Daelkyr or a rage filled Rajah and a horde of balor level servants pouring out of a hole in the ground...
Aloïsius 03-22-06, 05:23 PM	"council of twelves or silver flame church council, or any other such organization" : -"huh, there is a powerful fiend destroying a region. It looks like his aim is to destroy Khorvaire." -"He is silly, we are perfectly able to destroy it ourselve, as Cyrans can say." -"So, what could we do ? It looks like none of us has the individual power to kill him". -"Well, well, we are still able to cast some "planar ally" spells. I think 6 or 7 planetars will do the trick, especialy if we give them some "buff" help. It's not like we don't have the resources of a whole nation. Even if they fail, I think one of them will be able to escape, and use his own spellcasting power to summon a Solar, via Gate." "Or we could just have some of those kamikaze paladin use a bag of holding and a portable hole near him, so that he is sucked in the Astral Plane, or something like this ? It would be fun. "
Korhal_IV 03-22-06, 07:48 PM	And yet Bob and the Tarasque together would still be a relatively "minor" incursion compared to a trimvurate of irritated Daelkyr or a rage filled Rajah and a horde of balor level servants pouring out of a hole in the ground... The daelkyr statted out in the ECS is a CR 20, so three weak daelkyr is roughly a CR 23-24, whereas Bob and the Tarrasque are a CR 21-22ish. It's not much different. :) Alratan brought up the point of Greater Teleport at Will as a spoiler. I believe Dimensional Anchor will brutally counter the Greater Teleport - if a sufficiently powerful foe is brought to bear on poor Bob, Dimensional Anchor is pretty much guaranteed to show up. Plus, Bob may not always be willing to retreat - after all, running around like a vagabond is not fitting for a great demon prince. He enjoys his (newly acquired) palace, his (newly acquired) minions and his (newly acquired) treasure hoard (though he's not as attached to it as a dragon would be). Bob's pride would be severely wounded if he had to retreat, so he won't unless things take a truly terrible turn (and Bob has a lot of pride, which is why he got nailed by that wizard in the first place). Additionally, Bob might be trying to conquer a strategic target (such as Flamekeep, or the ancestral castle of his old wizardly foe) and is unwilling to retreat until he's won.
Talkkno 03-22-06, 08:15 PM	Jaela is acculty only a mere 11 years old, where you guys getting 16 and 18 and stuff? It says that in the ecs and her stats are in the 5 nations book, though she doesn't have a picture for some odd reason....
Korhal_IV 03-22-06, 08:32 PM	Jaela is acculty only a mere 11 years old, where you guys getting 16 and 18 and stuff? It says that in the ecs and her stats are in the 5 nations book, though she doesn't have a picture for some odd reason.... She's 12, IIRC, and they were debating her level.
Pinky's brain 03-22-06, 10:16 PM	Scrolls of Gate are kind of ... rare on Eberron. There aren't enough high level spellcasters to support such an economy. Rare does not mean impossible to acquire. There are few people who can afford scrolls of gate in Eberron, so the ones who exist will tend to stick around looking for a buyer in places like sharn. Even when we talk about people capable of making it ... ignoring Jaela there are the 11+ level artificers which both Sharn City of towers and Keith's demographics Dragonshard say exist (you can talk about flavour all day wrong, but in the meantime those things are actually written down ... Eberron is not low magic by any stretch of the imagination). An 11th level artificer counts as CL 13 for meeting prerequisites and he can use multiple orange ioun stones (through item alteration) to boost his caster level to the CL17 prerequisite temporarily ... and he only needs to meet prerequisites temporarily thanks to his dedicated wright. Now I know that NPCs don't usually act in a CO manner, but then neither do Balors :) In other words, Bob the Balor will find himself on another plane with no save and his SR being completely useless completely under the control of whoever cast the gate for 17 rounds. At the end of those 17 rounds Bob the Balor will no longer be a threat.
aelryinth 03-22-06, 10:18 PM	She's 12, IIRC, and they were debating her level. I thought they had a picture of her walking her 'dog'. She's the young nubian lady. And inside Flamekeep, she's an 18th level cleric. I'd give her the Sanctum Spell feat too, on all her spells...just because she can only use them in the Sanctum, heh! ===Aelryinth
DarkWarriorKarg 03-22-06, 10:51 PM	I thought they had a picture of her walking her 'dog'. She's the young nubian lady. I must have missed it. Pray tell, where is it?
Talkkno 03-22-06, 11:22 PM	I think thats the picture of the silver flame in the ecs. I think that girl is jalea in the picture.
Archmage 03-23-06, 11:29 AM	Jaela Daran is 11 years old. Within Flamekeep, she functions as an 18th-level cleric. Outside of it, she's a 3rd-level cleric. Appearance-wise, Jaela is what in our world would be considered a pretty African-American child.
Rechan 03-23-06, 11:32 AM	Jaela Daran is 11 years old. Within Flamekeep, she functions as an 18th-level cleric. Outside of it, she's a 3rd-level cleric. Appearance-wise, Jaela is what in our world would be considered a pretty African-American child. Where is the pic of her?
Purple Yin 03-23-06, 03:47 PM	a demon ransacking thrane.. wouldnt coatls from Xen'drik turn up an bind with it? it is their 'thing' after all.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-23-06, 10:34 PM	a demon ransacking thrane.. wouldnt coatls from Xen'drik turn up an bind with it? it is their 'thing' after all. Eventually. If there's any around who are strong enough to do so. The heroes might kill Bob the balor quickly and save thousands of lives.
Always-Late 03-24-06, 02:44 AM	Could Witch-King of Angmar level Hobbiton? Sure. If nobody else got involved. Why's Hobbiton still standing? Take a guess.
darkthought 03-24-06, 10:21 AM	Could Witch-King of Angmar level Hobbiton? Sure. If nobody else got involved. Why's Hobbiton still standing? Take a guess. 42?
Commissar 03-25-06, 01:23 PM	From within Flamekeep, Pope Jaela casts Gate twice (2 solars) and Gr. Planar Ally 3 times (3 Planetars). The assempled Righteous Angelic Host gets moving and vaporizes Bob before he even has a chance to make a pompous villain speech. The end. Bob doesn't last a day if he picks on Thrane.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-25-06, 04:22 PM	Could Witch-King of Angmar level Hobbiton? Sure. If nobody else got involved. Why's Hobbiton still standing? Take a guess. Actually he couldn't. He needs an army, at least if he wants to do so without wasting huge amounts of time. There's no teleporting and, as far as I know, no massive AoE damage spells in Middle Earth.
Alratan 03-26-06, 02:54 PM	Alratan brought up the point of Greater Teleport at Will as a spoiler. I believe Dimensional Anchor will brutally counter the Greater Teleport - if a sufficiently powerful foe is brought to bear on poor Bob, Dimensional Anchor is pretty much guaranteed to show up. The key point is that Bob the Balor just wants to kill people, any people, who have the misfortune to livein Thrane. No sufficiently powerful foe can actually find him - every 12 seconds he is somewhere else, and in none of those places is there going to be someone holding a dimensional anchor spell as a readied action. Everywhere, Bob is going to get a surprise round, let off a blasphemy, and then leave 12 seconds after showing up. Because anyone who is trying to chase him needs to spend at least one action to track him down after he has moved on to his next victims, they are never going to catch up. Basically, he wins because he moves to fast and can always choose his field of battle. In the examples with the wands of lesser orb of Force, why is a super-genius standing exposed in an open area, when he can just teleport inside buildings or behind cover
Pinky's brain 03-26-06, 03:13 PM	Ignoring the fact that planeshift+gate can kill any non unique creature with no save and no SR you can always just scry him, wait till he teleports and then immediately teleport to his new location (and hope that whoever has to throw the dimensional anchor wins initiative).
Always-Late 03-26-06, 06:23 PM	The key point is that Bob the Balor just wants to kill people, any people, who have the misfortune to livein Thrane. No sufficiently powerful foe can actually find him - every 12 seconds he is somewhere else, and in none of those places is there going to be someone holding a dimensional anchor spell as a readied action. Everywhere, Bob is going to get a surprise round, let off a blasphemy, and then leave 12 seconds after showing up. Because anyone who is trying to chase him needs to spend at least one action to track him down after he has moved on to his next victims, they are never going to catch up. Basically, he wins because he moves to fast and can always choose his field of battle. In the examples with the wands of lesser orb of Force, why is a super-genius standing exposed in an open area, when he can just teleport inside buildings or behind coverCan Bob the Balor level Celestia? Sure! All he has to do is dimension door and blasphemy every 12 seconds, and nobody will ever find him! I mean, enough fireballs will kill a diety, and he has all the surprise rounds in the world. (Trace Teleport, anyone? Or how about: Scry, kill.)
DyloniusFunk 03-26-06, 08:51 PM	Originally Posted by Always-Late Could Witch-King of Angmar level Hobbiton? Sure. If nobody else got involved. Why's Hobbiton still standing? Take a guess. Actually he couldn't. He needs an army, at least if he wants to do so without wasting huge amounts of time. There's no teleporting and, as far as I know, no massive AoE damage spells in Middle Earth. PLus there's also the fact that there was the entire Dunedian kingdom of Arnor between the Witch King and the Shire. The Shire was technically a aprt of the kingdom but was not invovled in the war,a side froma mention in the appendicies to sending some archers to the final battle. Of course this brought the end of the kingsom or Arnor, but it also brought about the end of Angmar. And at the time the Objective of Sauron and the Witch King was the end of Arnor, they didn't even know about the Shire at that time. Of course if Sauron had the ability to peerf forward a few hundred years and see what would happen, he may have decided to change his objectives to eliminating the Shire and without Arnor intervention he would succedd since the Hobbits would not be able to stand up to them.
aelryinth 03-26-06, 10:10 PM	Can Bob the Balor level Celestia? Sure! All he has to do is dimension door and blasphemy every 12 seconds, and nobody will ever find him! I mean, enough fireballs will kill a diety, and he has all the surprise rounds in the world. (Trace Teleport, anyone? Or how about: Scry, kill.) There's this thing called divination spells...so you can know where he is and more importantly, where he's going to be. Does Bob have Mind Blank? It's what he'd need to have a Divine Force not be able to supply a little 12-year old girl with the facts on what he wants to do. Gotta love that deific omniscience sometimes. Exactly why would Mr Super Genius be inside buildings when he's trying to build up an army, under your own descriptions? Crowds attract crowds. Bob's dead and gone. Leave him be. Now, if Dave the Balor wants to try something sweet and true, that's great. he sets foot on the Prime, his drinking buddy Fred slips Dave's Truename to the wrong silver-tongued devil, who bargains it to a Planetar a hundred years in the Past, and Jaela summons Dave as he's about to blow his first blasphemy and binds him to the Silver Flame and he's all done. repeat for Joe, Frank, Tim, George, Bill, Ned, Brian and Lou until the Balors get the hint that being an idiot on Eberron is much less fun then being a Free Idiot on Fernia....and a General of the Almighty COnquering Host of the Army of Perdition, to boot! ==-=Aelryinth
Pinky's brain 03-26-06, 11:58 PM	D&D god's don't tend to be omni-anything, I don't see how even a god would be able to predict where he'd jump next.
Korhal_IV 03-27-06, 01:54 AM	D&D god's don't tend to be omni-anything, I don't see how even a god would be able to predict where he'd jump next. Yes, they do. Read Deities & Demigods. If you treat the Silver Flame as a statted deity, the Silver Flame knows (among many other things) everything that's going to happen in Thrane two weeks in advance. Two weeks. That's sufficient time to get artificers crafting, or to hire adventurers to make sure a given demon's tomb stays sealed, which I personally would favor as a solution. :D Alratan - Bob the Balor is not an ooze. He has an Int score and a Wis score. He's a malefic super-genius who could beat Kasparov at chess with one arm tied behind his back. That means he has desires that go beyond "SMASHSMASH!" Sure, he might level a village irately when he escapes, but soon enough his natural desires for self-aggrandizement, for worship, and for more subtle pleasures like social domination or long-term empire-building. Remember, the wizard who bound Bob is dead. That means there's really no way to get direct revenge, and Bob knows it. So Bob, if he's still fixated on revenge, is going to maybe hunt down the wizard's descendants, his estate, possibly even his entire hometown or arcane circle. These are fairly narrow targets, and quickly exhausted. After that, Bob's got his own ambitions, that mostly center around making his life more pleasant. While it's true that his pleasures usually involve other people suffering, casting Dimension Door and Blasphemy every 12 seconds gets tiring. You want to stop to enjoy the view sometimes, you know? That's why, basically, this entire example is silly. It completely rewrites a classic villain to be a mindless bulldozer, and that's the least of its problems.
Alratan 03-27-06, 08:03 AM	Sure, he might level a village irately when he escapes, but soon enough his natural desires for self-aggrandizement, for worship, and for more subtle pleasures like social domination or long-term empire-building. Bob's a balor, not a Pit Fiend, social domination and long-term empire building are absoultely antithetical to his nature. Bob gets his kicks from driving a culture over the edge into complete collapse, by destroying all the social structures that maintain civilization, and then watching the moral degredation that results from the survivors scrabbling around in the anarchy to survive. That's why, basically, this entire example is silly. It completely rewrites a classic villain to be a mindless bulldozer, and that's the least of its problems. As I say above, Bob does have long-term sophisticatied aims, it's just that, being the embodiment of chaos and evil, they are best served by some targeted wanton destruction.
aelryinth 03-27-06, 04:54 PM	Bob's a balor, not a Pit Fiend, social domination and long-term empire building are absoultely antithetical to his nature. Bob gets his kicks from driving a culture over the edge into complete collapse, by destroying all the social structures that maintain civilization, and then watching the moral degredation that results from the survivors scrabbling around in the anarchy to survive. As I say above, Bob does have long-term sophisticatied aims, it's just that, being the embodiment of chaos and evil, they are best served by some targeted wanton destruction. Balors are also warlords. Those goals are best served by directing others in targeted wanton destruction, and sitting back and glorifying in your power over others. Balors are at the top of the demonic pecking order, and they love it. Just hopping to another plane isn't going to change that...super-intelligent fiends don't go popping all around causing mischeif...that's for pawns and tools. They go popping around worlds causing catastrophic doom. You are describing a balor doing the equivalent of cleaning his toenails...a complete waste of his time and talents. ===Aelryinth
Korhal_IV 03-27-06, 11:32 PM	When I say "empire building", I mean building a coterie of worshippers. As a selfish and self-centered being, Bob the Balor enjoys having minions attend to his every whim. The more, the merrier.
Neochronic 03-28-06, 10:03 AM	I thought they had a picture of her walking her 'dog'. She's the young nubian lady. Does anyone have the page number of this picture? I haven't been able to find it for some reason... :(