Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 09-09-06, 01:22 AM	If House Sivis wanted to use control of information to keep a populace from knowing certain truths, it could just "erase" or "lose" those messages entrusted to it that dealt with said truths. - Ron ^*^
Straylight 09-09-06, 02:01 AM	Right... ...And the point/topic of discussion is? (sorry about the short post, but really... what more is there?)
The Dreaming Duck 09-09-06, 03:24 AM	...And the point/topic of discussion is? Werebat is refering to a previous thread, which I'm guessing was deleted by the Wizos for violating the CoC. In this thread, he asserted that the gnomes were an antisemitic stereotype, because, among other reasons, they manipulate the media. First we have the obvious issue that House Sivis handles long-distance communications. They are, at best, the post office and telegraph company - hardly the typical depiction of the media. "The media", as we know of it, would be the chronicles... and of those, only one of the four major chronicles has gnomish connections. But Werebat, there's a far greater issue here. The ANTI-semetic stereotype is about *manipulating* the media. You've said repeatedly that what makes the gnomes such a stereotype is because they're conniving schemers using the media for their benefit. But that's not what the books say. Let's go straight to the source material. Over the centuries (House Sivis has) established and maintained a reputation for absolute impartiality - a vital trait for a force that handles the communications of kings. Considered an unbiased and informative source of news, the Chronicle enjoys wide distribution... The gnomes are associated with communication, and with one of the newspapers. But NOWHERE are they described as abusing this influence or performing "media manipulation". Instead, they are described as being exceptionally reliable and trustworthy. Perhaps you'll say "Well, people may THINK that... doesn't mean it's true." No, but it's what the designers have SAID is true. THEY have described the gnomes as people who care about gathering knowledge and ensuring accurate, unbiased reporting and strong lines of communication, who have earned and maintained the trust of vitally important clients over the course of centuries. If YOU make the gnomes in YOUR campaign abuse this trust, YOU'RE the one turning them into media manipulators. You're the one trying to press them into the stereotype, when the designers have specifically pushed them in the opposite direction from that stereotype. It's just like the dwarves being bankers. Are they, in fact, bankers and moneylenders? Why, yes they are. But who do the Mror banks - a powerful force respected across the continent - have more in common with? The stereotypical image of the grasping usurer? Or, say, the Medici Bank and the other banking houses of the Renaissance? You can be a moneylender without being a Jewish stereotype. You can run a newspaper without being a media manipulator. It's a Rorshach blot. You can project whatever you want onto it, but those patterns are what you choose to see, not the intent of the artist. I'd address the other points you raised in the last thread, but I imagine it was deleted for a reason, and I'd just as soon not waste my time on a thread likely to disappear as well.
Hellcow 09-09-06, 03:47 AM	If House Sivis wanted to use control of information to keep a populace from knowing certain truths, it could just "erase" or "lose" those messages entrusted to it that dealt with said truths. Dreaming Duck is correct. Having written both the House Sivis entry in the ECS and the upcoming Dragonmarked sourcebook, I can say that by the core material, House Sivis takes its position of neutrality extremely seriously, and anyone (for example a PC) who violates the trust of a client or pressures another member of the house to do so will face serious consequences. COULD the house lose, erase, or manipulate messages like this? Of course it could. But this would quickly hurt the reputation of the house, and it wouldn't take long for the nobles and other Dragonmarked barons to decide that they need to create their own private communication services... services which, even if slower, could be relied upon. Sivis has maintained its influence for nearly two millenia because of its firm adherance to its code of ethics. You may change that if you wish... but it's not how the house is depicted in the setting. (If people out there are saying "Awww...", all I can say is that I personally think Dragonmarked will give you lots of interesting options to work with; it's a different path, but one I hope you'll enjoy.) And for what it's worth, the phonetic similarity of "jungle" and "juden" never crossed my mind, Werebat. Could it have been a mysterious subconscious slip? Maybe. But consciously, I chose the word "jungle" because the region the gnomes lived in was tropical and primarily jungle. But hey, who can say?
The White Sorcerer 09-09-06, 04:19 AM	If House Sivis wanted to use control of information to keep a populace from knowing certain truths, it could just "erase" or "lose" those messages entrusted to it that dealt with said truths. But would it?
Werebat 09-09-06, 11:33 AM	Well, this has all generated far more discussion than the original throw-away line intended. Duck, I agree that there is no point discussing the original topic any further because it is evident that such discussion will simply be erased. Actual discourse on this matter is impossible when we both know that this is the case. I will give you that Zil gnomes appear to control a "mere" 25% of the print media in Khorvaire, for what that's worth. Keith, you have said that it was never your intent for gnomes, and Zil gnomes in particular, to be Jewish stereotypes. I'll take your word for that but we both understand that the game has been around for a long time and seen influence by many designers, some of whom may not have felt as you do. Moreover, we both know that steroetypes are an intrinsic part of fantasy writing, as even the most fanciful of fantasy cultures frequently derive in part from real-world sources. I think denying these real-world influences on fantasy is, as I said, disingenious. I wasn't lying about my the religious affiliations of my family. I was raised Catholic, my eldest son is being raised Jewish, and my girlfriend, with whom I have a younger son, was raised Hindu. OK, we aren't seriously considering raising the baby Moslem as "insurance", but otherwise what I said was true. I don't think I'm out of line in believing that elements of Thrane were derived from Catholic culture, nor is my GF out of line in seeing elements of Indian and Hindu society in the Kalashtar. In the case of Thrane, some of the stereotypes used are negative. This doesn't ruin my day -- I'm mature enough to recognize that some terrible things were done in affiliation with the Catholic church. I also recognize that you, Keith, almost certainly weren't trying to use Thrane to make a statement about how Catholics were "bad", and probably didn't have Catholics specifically on your mind when you wrote about Thrane. But I'm certain that you drew from an American cultural body of knowledge and opinion about Catholics, whether you thought about it consciously or not. One of my favorite parts of the Dark Sun campaign was trying to figure out what real-world culture the different city-states were based on. Some were easy for me, others were harder. I remember feeling the light bulb switch on in my head on a flight home from Japan, where they were showing a special presentation on Angkor Wat (which I had never heard of before) and I suddenly realized the obvious connections to Nibenay. A person could claim that all of this is ridiculous, that Nibenay couldn't possibly have any connection to Angkor Wat because the people living in the real-world area didn't actually have an evil sorceror king who was turning into a dragon. I don't think that is an entirely valid point of view, though. I'm sure you can understand why. Just as I see some clear and obvious elements of Catholic stereotypes in Thrane, I see clear and obvious elements of Jewish stereotypes in D&D gnomes, although as I said earlier I won't bother getting into the specifics here because I think it would ultimately just get the post erased. I've gamed with more than one Jewish friend who saw the same stereotypes (one of whom is, in fact, a modern-day "jester" or comedian). None of them seemed really offended by them, but they were real enough that they recognized them. I don't think that a claim that orcs were anti-semitic stereotypes would have generated much if any response, because there really isn't anything about orcs that can be seen as an anti-semitic stereotype that I can think of. That people felt the need to respond so vehemently so a similar suggestion about gnomes, and then later censure the discussion, says to me that there was something about the idea that people knew in their hearts contained at least a grain of truth. Keith, I'd like to close by stating for the record that I don't believe that you personally are an anti-semite; I think you're a great game designer and author, and if I were really offended by Eberron I'd give it the same treatment I give systems like FATAL that really ARE offensive -- I'd forget about it and not play it or talk about it. That isn't the case here. You've created a great world to play in, and written some very enjoyable books (I'm really looking forward to seeing how you wrap up the Dreaming Dark trilogy!). You didn't invent D&D gnomes, though, and I think you'll admit that you do in fact (consciously or not) draw from many real-world cultures and stereotypes when crafting your fantasies. Just like anyone else. Thanks for listening, - Ron ^*^
ekomega 09-09-06, 12:17 PM	If you keep talking like this, they'll kill this thread too, so drop it. I know for a fact that the last thread was deleted because of a CoC violation, and this thread is moving in the same direction. I'd like to be able to reference Keith's post in this thread in the future, since it's another great piece of Eberron information, so let's leave it alone, shall we?
Hellcow 09-09-06, 02:05 PM	Keith, I'd like to close by stating for the record that I don't believe that you personally are an anti-semite... Well, my Jewish wife will be glad to hear it. While I agree that extended conversation on the topic will simply result in CoC violations and the thread being shut down, I'd like to respond to the general point - all fantasy and fiction inherently draws on stereotypes. I will be the first to admit that in creating Eberron, I drew on certain aspects of our world for inspiration. This helps people to get a handle on a nation or race, because they have a slight familiarity with it. For example, Karrnath has an Eastern European Germany/Russia/Prussia/Romania sort of feel to it. But it's not supposed to be Germany or Russia, for all that it may evoke certain aspects of those nations. I'm not saying "Damn those undead-worshipping Germans"... because, well, last time I check, no one in Germany worships the undead. Likewise, the Church of the Silver Flame certainly evokes certain aspects of the Catholic church. It is a monotheistic, highly-structured religion that has in the past sponsored crusades and inquisitions, led by a spiritual leader who lives in her own little city. But is it supposed to BE the Catholic church? Not at all. Let's start by looking at the Silver Flame: it's not a god, but rather a force of souls bound together in sacrifice to hold back evil. The Silver Flame didn't create the world. There's no original sin, and Tira Miron is more Joan of Arc than Jesus. The CoSF has never suffered the sort of persecution the Christians have. There's no particular concept of communion; if anything, that's tied to the Blood of Vol, although with the BoV it is the group GIVING its blood to its saviors instead of receiving the blood of the savior. And as a religion, the CoSF's crusade is ongoing and directed at supernatural evil: demons, undead, and other forces which DO, after all, exist in this world. I'll also point out that while people often focus on corruption in the CoSF, it is not the intent of the setting for this to be unusually high; the point of Eberron is that you can find corrupt priests in ANY church (in fact, the Blood of Vol has a far more serious case of many of the high-level priests actively abusing the faith and trust of their worshippers). So it's certainly not supposed to be a statement about corruption in the Catholic church; it's a statement about the WORLD, and the fact that there is corruption in the world. On the Church of the Silver Flame, I will say that I'm personally disappointed with how many people focus entirely on the negative aspects of the church. Yes, there is corruption in the church... as there is in every church and every guild. Yes, you have the zealots... but like the corrupt priests, they are the minority. The lycanthropic purge was centuries ago, and if you read the Dragonshard, it was an act done to save tens of thousands of innocents; it may not have been handled perfectly, but it was a threat that needed to be faced. In the present day, the vast majority of followers of the Silver Flame are decent people who do devote themselves to battling evil - fighting supernatural evil with sword and force, but seeking to overcome HUMAN evil through compassion, charity, and spiritual guidance. All too often, I see people using Thrane or the CoSF as if the zealots are the DOMINANT force within it; whereas, in fact, they are a minority whose actions Jaela considers a blemish on the church. The CoSF is as positive a force in the world as anything else out there - and where it has flaws, well, EVERYTHING has flaws. So, does the Church of the Silver Flame draw on aspects of Christianity? Sure, it would be silly to argue that. But it also differs from it in many important ways. In many other ways, worshippers of the Silver Flame have more in common with Jedi Knights: they are soldiers in an eternal war against darkness; they are empowered by a vast spiritual force - not actually a god - that aids them in this struggle; pure-hearted Jedi will join with this force when they die; and they must guard against darkness and corruption within they own ranks. Inspiration is there. Touchstones are there. But the Church of the Silver Flame is not supposed to represent Christianity or the Jedi Knights, and Cardinal Krozen isn't supposed to be some sort of clever insult against the Catholic Cardinals or Senator Palpatine. The fact that it is vaguely familiar gives people a place to start; but I hope that they will move on from that point and embrace the ways in which the Curch has nothing to do with anything in our world - to seek to understand what makes it unique, and not simply a shadow of our world. Which brings us to the gnomes. I can't speak of what's been done with the gnomes in the past (which, after all, I had no role in), and besides, I don't want to deal with CoC issues. Certainly it was not MY intention to draw a Semitic stereotype. As has been said, if they have some influence over the media, they are actually noted as being the MOST trustworthy source of information. And I will admit that Dreaming Duck has touched on some of the inspirations I was reaching for with the gnomes: Machiavelli and the Borgias would both be right at home in Zilargo. Yet even there, Zilargo is not supposed to be an Italian city-state. With the Trust, it is an exploration of a culture we don't have in our world, one taken to extremes. The Trust, the Library of Korranberg, the interplay of the families - these are the things that make Zilargo interesting to me. I believe that you mentioned Alina, drawing on the fact that Daine was concerned about dealing with her and being drawn into her schemes. But honestly? In my mind, Alina is all about the Borgias... beautiful, deadly, wealthy, with great influence and untold schemes. As the Dreaming Duck points out, history is full of bankers, schemers, and media moguls who AREN'T Semitic stereotypes. The Mror Dwarves are bankers with beards. But are they presented in the same way as the stereotype of the heartless usurer, or are they just that... bankers with beards? The gnomes do have control of an aspect of the media. But are they presented as abusing that power, or in fact being the most reliable source of information in the world? Touchstones are important, because they help people find their footing in the world. But if you want to get the most from the world, you then need to be willing to let go of those things and explore the setting for what it is. Karrnath isn't Germany or Romania. The Church of the Silver Flame isn't the Catholic Church. The Mror and the Zil aren't supposed to be Jews. If you force them into these roles, you're cutting yourself off from what the setting has to offer. So in conclusion... I think you'll admit that you do in fact (consciously or not) draw from many real-world cultures and stereotypes when crafting your fantasies. Yes, I do. I think drawing on real-world history and folklore does help give people a stronger grasp on concepts. But while I may use such things as a foundation, I then try to take it beyond that foundation to explore something new. Taking Zilargo, yes, I was certainly influenced by, among other things, Machiavelli and Renaissance Italy. But the Ten never had the level of power of influence that the Trust do, and to my mind there's never been a nation on our world just like Zilargo. For me, Zilargo IS a fascinating question of how far people are willing to go: is it worth having a nation with no crime if the price you pay is submitting to an omnipresent secret police who will kill you if you pose a threat to peace? Zilargo seems bright, cheerful, and harmless - but in fact, in my opinion, it is one of the MOST dangerous places in the world for an adventurer, because adventurers are so likely to threaten the status quo. And again, when you get into a culture where the police will use poison, assassination, and similar tools to enforce the law, and where every citizen is likely involved in a half-dozen plots of his own - again, if that relates to a modern stereotype, I have to admit that it was one I wasn't aware of.
Hellcow 09-09-06, 02:25 PM	Oh, Werebat, you also mentioned the fact that the primitive gnomes were being persecuted by the Lawful Evil hobgoblins, and I wanted to touch on that for a moment. First: I don't consider the Empire of Dhakaan to have been an evil society; in my mind, it was lawful neutral. Order and discipline were vitally important, but ruthless cruelty was not part of the society; on the contrary, remember that among the Dhakaani, all three of the goblin races were treated equally, as opposed to the goblins being oppressed and exploited by their larger kin (something that's common among the Ghaal'dar and VERY common among the Marguul). They were an expansionist militaristic power, but that doesn't necessarily make them EVIL... though that in itself is another question (look up any of the discussions on Aurala and Kaius). Second, specifically taking the interaction of the Dhakaani and the gnomes, the Dhakaani did not actually intend to exterminate the gnomes: the gnomes simply held the territory that the Dhakaani intended to claim as their own. Note that the Dragonshard says "conquest was easier than occupation." To the degree that this is intentionally drawing on a historical touchstone, it's the Roman Empire expanding into territory held by barbarians... a civilized, militant nation coming into conflict with a "feral and primitive" one... as opposed to the systematic genocide of a civilized culture that is already integrated into the nation in question. It's all back to that "not every banker is Shylock" issue. History is FILLED with powerful civilizations that have struggled to conquer their less sophisticated neighbors, and that's what happened here.
The Dreaming Duck 09-09-06, 02:46 PM	To me the issue is what is ignored when you focus on the few points of contention. I can take a hyena and a housecat and say "They're both carnivores, have four legs, fur, and spots. Hyenas are said to be the familiars of witches. Clearly the hyena is a housecat... or at least, a feline stereotype." All of these points of similarity are absolutely true. But doing this ignores all of the unique and fascinating features of the hyena - sexual dimorphism; the behavior of hyena young; the feuding between hyenas and lions; and the fact, of course, that biologically hyenas aren't felines. There may be things in Eberron that are reminiscent of things in our world. But when you focus only on the similarities and ignore the many differences, you end up saying that a hyena is a cat. Saying "Gnomes have influence over the media" while ignoring the fact that they are noted as being the most reliable source of information and communciation in Khorvaire is a perfect example of this - saying "they've both got four legs" while ignoring the fact that one is a cat and the other a hyena. But I don't want to get the thread locked, so I'll shut up now and hope it's not too late.
Werebat 09-09-06, 05:06 PM	Hellcow, Well, thanks for a couple of very thoughtful and informative posts! To be honest I had no idea you even read these forums, me being relatively new here and spending most of my time on unmoderated boards. From what you are saying it sounds quite reasonable that you drew on aspects of Venetian culture in designing Zilargo. No doubt you also drew on popular fantasy conceptualizations of gnomes, and it is these, I think, that might hold more of the stereotyping I was on about in my original post. I think we can both agree that most people who are capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality know that, while a piece of fantasy fiction may draw from real-world sources as inspiration, it isn't generally trying to portray itself as the reality. For example, it was apparent to me that Thrane drew from elements of the Catholic church, but as a Catholic (although I'm only about as Catholic as my GF is Hindu, and we both eat steak on Fridays during Lent) I didn't find anything offensive about it, not even the negative aspects, because I didn't really believe that you were trying to say anything negative about the Catholic church itself. An interesting question is WHY I didn't think that. I suppose it must be because there were enough differences between Thrane's church and the Catholic church that I could see a reasonable distance between the two. My guess would be that there is a line beyond which most people would begin to perceive that the author was actually trying to say something about the Catholic church. This line would be somewhere before a complete replication of the church was reached, too. Consider the recent uproar in certain circles over the "DaVinci Codes" novel and movie -- not everything about the church in that story is true or factually accurate, but a lot of Catholics were offended by it. I would think that as a fantasy race, culture, religion, etc. became less differentiated from its real-world roots, it might be more and more at risk of offending people, especially with its negative stereotypes. Of course sometimes a culture is "dead" or mostly-dead, and companies as well as the public can do so with impunity -- for example, I doubt any Babylonians registered any complaints about the portrayal of their culture in Dark Sun's City-State of Urik. Dead people rarely sue anyone, and some groups are so small that companies just don't worry (for example the portrayal and statting of Thor as a fantasy god when some people in the world do still worship Thor, when they would fear to do so of the Judeo-Christian Yahweh; my GF did find it amusing that D&D once statted up the Hindu gods and goddesses, though). My initial comment regarding the term "Jungle Rats" (which wasn't really all that serious, I think there might have even been a smiley in there) had mostly to do with this -- here we had a term and a situation that seemed to be pushing the envelope. Not seriously, but a little step closer to what I am used to seeing. Evidently that's not how it was intended. I don't want to awaken Great Cthulhu any more then the rest of you, so I'll let the specifics of the matter drop here (although not without some grinding of teeth -- moderation always raises my hackles, but that's another discussion altogether and one not likely to occur here). I will maintain that the generic presentation of gnomes in the AD&D game does certainly contain many elements that Jews I know have joked about being at least "stereotypical", although as I explain above I think there is enough "distance" between the game portrayal and reality that they don't seem to be actually offended. Keith, I included text from your second post here because it is of great use to me in a possible upcoming local campaign. Since I have your ear for the moment, if you wouldn't mind a bit more input on this: Oh, Werebat, you also mentioned the fact that the primitive gnomes were being persecuted by the Lawful Evil hobgoblins, and I wanted to touch on that for a moment. First: I don't consider the Empire of Dhakaan to have been an evil society; in my mind, it was lawful neutral. Order and discipline were vitally important, but ruthless cruelty was not part of the society; on the contrary, remember that among the Dhakaani, all three of the goblin races were treated equally, as opposed to the goblins being oppressed and exploited by their larger kin (something that's common among the Ghaal'dar and VERY common among the Marguul). They were an expansionist militaristic power, but that doesn't necessarily make them EVIL... though that in itself is another question (look up any of the discussions on Aurala and Kaius). Well, this is useful indeed. I had been operating under the assumption that the Dhakaani Hobgoblins enslaved the Goblins and Bugbears. This is evidently not the case, and makes things easier for players who would want to play those races. Hm. Were the Dhakaani slavers at all? I'd assume they may have enslaved Orcs, Halflings, Kobolds, Gnomes, and Dwarves that might have been on Khorvaire during the time period we are talking about. This might make said races less attractive as PC races. Where can I learn more about Khorvaire at this point in time? Also -- and maybe this has been discussed elsewhere -- can you give me a suggestion on how to make Orc druids more palatable and/or attractive to players in a campaign set during the Xoriat invasion? A culture that is "closer to nature" might explain why Vvaraak would have chosen Orcs to be the first druids, but it doesn't give players a good reason other than pure role-playing considerations. OK, I'll end here, but thanks again for the post, Keith. - Ron ^*^
cancerousmango 09-09-06, 05:48 PM	Anti-semitism sucks. (********************************/index.php?a=3684) My friends and I consider the gnomes more like the NSA and CIA combined, not Zionist overlords.
Hellcow 09-09-06, 06:17 PM	I had been operating under the assumption that the Dhakaani Hobgoblins enslaved the Goblins and Bugbears. This is evidently not the case, and makes things easier for players who would want to play those races. Hm. The information you're looking for can be found in the Dhakaani Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a), which examines the role of each goblinoid race within the society. Essentially, it's more of a caste structure than anything else. The goblins are the peasant caste, but they are respected for the work that they do; without their support, the soldiers would starve, and so on. Again, a very different attitude from what you see among the Marguul, who follow the "strong rule the weak" philosophy. Were the Dhakaani slavers at all? Yes, in my opinion they did enslave members of other races. In fact, I believe the gnome Dragonshard does talk about them taking gnomes as slaves. With that said, I also think that there were Dhakaani emperors whose main goal was to enforce Dhakaani culture on other races - resulting in cities of second class citizens as opposed to literal slaves. This is where you'd get your neutral approach: in their opinion, what they are ULTIMATELY doing is bringing Dhakaani culture to these benighted creatures. So you could have an unusual situation where a new Dhakaani clan emerges from hiding... that's actually made up of DWARVES whose ancestors were converted to Imperial rule thousands of years ago. They follow the Dhakaani customs, have dirgesingers and chainmasters, and wish to be part of the reformed Dhakaani empire... but how do the modern Dhakaani feel about them? There were certainly many evil leaders and soldiers among the Dhakaani, along with many good ones... just like in most of the Five Nations. But as a society, I'd go lawful neutral. Also -- and maybe this has been discussed elsewhere -- can you give me a suggestion on how to make Orc druids more palatable and/or attractive to players in a campaign set during the Xoriat invasion? A culture that is "closer to nature" might explain why Vvaraak would have chosen Orcs to be the first druids, but it doesn't give players a good reason other than pure role-playing considerations. Ultimately, I think role-playing considerations are the answer... not simply in how the PC roleplays his character, but in how NPCs will interact with him. In this time period, the orcs hold the secrets of the druidic mysteries, and it would be very hard for a member of another race to earn induction into this circle... and remember, the Greensingers, Wardens, etc just aren't around right now, and for that matter, the Dhakaani don't have clerics; if you want a divine caster around at all, orc druids are your best bet. You might be able to make a case for a Talenta maskweaver, but he'd be VERY far afield if he's on the west coast, and there's the question of why he isn't serving his tribe. In any case, an orc druid should have access to resources others do not. He may know of magical locations (locations that can only be activated by someone with orc blood). He may be given missions or equipment by the inner circle of the Gatekeepers. He may be called upon to perform rituals than only Gatekeepers can be part of. So he does take a hit; it's true, being a divine caster with a Wisdom bonus feels painful. But by comparison, the Dhakaani essentially have NO divine casters... and the Gatekeeper receives noncombat benefits from his decision. Furthermore, a orc druid DOES have strength; add in a barbarian level or two and be a battlin' druid! Note that prior to the Daelkyr incursion, there was no love lost between the orcs and the Dhakaani, who considered the orcs to be savages. The incursion did make allies of the two, but even there, this was a matter of convenience between specific western commanders and Gatekeepers, not a formal alliance with the empire as a whole.
Nived 09-09-06, 10:36 PM	Just how much assistance did they offer each other durring the daelkyr war. In Don's Dragon Below series we head numerous referances to "Gatekeeper magic paired with Dhakaan steel" working together in the past... but other places (the rulebooks) I've seen throwaway lines about racial animosity between the two cultures, or that the Dhakaan got their butts handed to them and it was the Orcs alone who turned the tide. So did they work together? Would either have made it without the other? Why the distain?
ArcTan 09-10-06, 12:43 AM	Well, this has all generated far more discussion than the original throw-away line intended. Duck, I agree that there is no point discussing the original topic any further because it is evident that such discussion will simply be erased. Actual discourse on this matter is impossible when we both know that this is the case. I will give you that Zil gnomes appear to control a "mere" 25% of the print media in Khorvaire, for what that's worth. Well, no, they control one of the four major newspapers. There are smaller newspapers, newsletters, circulars, pamphlets, etc. The Chronicle is important, and it's not the only thing the Zil run, but I'd still doubt that, with the population figures the way they are, gnomes control *that* big a chunk of all print media. Keith, you have said that it was never your intent for gnomes, and Zil gnomes in particular, to be Jewish stereotypes. I'll take your word for that but we both understand that the game has been around for a long time and seen influence by many designers, some of whom may not have felt as you do. Moreover, we both know that steroetypes are an intrinsic part of fantasy writing, as even the most fanciful of fantasy cultures frequently derive in part from real-world sources. I think denying these real-world influences on fantasy is, as I said, disingenious. Of course everything can be related to the real world. But then everything in the real world can be related to each other, and all works of fiction can be related to each other. The thing is that some things just *are similar* without them necessarily being based on each other. There are similarities between Native American and Mesopotamian creation myths, even though the cultures had no reasonable point of contact. There are similarities between ancient Japanese artwork and ancient Egyptian artwork. There are similarities between the Star Wars movies and this story I wrote as a little kid long before I ever saw Star Wars. That doesn't mean one is specifically "based" on the other. I wasn't lying about my the religious affiliations of my family. I was raised Catholic, my eldest son is being raised Jewish, and my girlfriend, with whom I have a younger son, was raised Hindu. OK, we aren't seriously considering raising the baby Moslem as "insurance", but otherwise what I said was true. I don't think I'm out of line in believing that elements of Thrane were derived from Catholic culture, nor is my GF out of line in seeing elements of Indian and Hindu society in the Kalashtar. In the case of Thrane, some of the stereotypes used are negative. This doesn't ruin my day -- I'm mature enough to recognize that some terrible things were done in affiliation with the Catholic church. I also recognize that you, Keith, almost certainly weren't trying to use Thrane to make a statement about how Catholics were "bad", and probably didn't have Catholics specifically on your mind when you wrote about Thrane. But I'm certain that you drew from an American cultural body of knowledge and opinion about Catholics, whether you thought about it consciously or not. Thrane can also be seen as a riff on the Islamic caliphates, on the Japanese concept of a god-emperor, on the Mormon nation of Deseret, on Geneva under the rule of John Calvin, on the early Puritan settlements in New England, on monotheistic Egypt under the rule of Akhenaten, etc. Thrane is a monotheistic theocracy under the rule of a religious elite. There have been many real-life examples of theocracies in history, and many in fiction. Thrane will show similarities to all of these, because, well, they're all theocracies and Thrane is a theocracy. The fact is that Catholic Rome and the Papal States are the most *familiar* example of a theocracy in a lot of people's minds does not mean that Thrane is "derived from" Rome. Yes, it means that when the designers were writing there were parallels going off in their head between the Vatican and Flamekeep, but that's *not the same as actually basing the one on the other*, especially when they purposely introduce elements that are jarringly *not* reminiscent of the Catholic Church at all and, if anything, are more reminiscent of other religions. The process of searching for supernatural signs for the Church's ultimate spiritual leader that have nothing to do with politics, experience or scholarship and that can, in fact, put a small child in control of the Church is far more reminiscent of Tibet under the lamas than it ever has been of the selection of the Pope. Catholic Europe *always* struggled with the issue of the division between Church and State, and the ultimate triumph of the clerical class over the landed aristocracy and the establishment of a true theocracy is *not* a feature of European history, outside the limited influence of the Papal States -- it is far more reminiscent, in fact, of the founding of Islam, and there is much about the CotSF that feels more Muslim than Christian. (The extreme emphasis on this-worldly battle against evil as opposed to spiritual transcendence or redemption, for instance.) Just like the whole "mystic" vibe makes Riedra and Sarlona look, to our Western eyes, like an Eastern thing, sure. But in reality the parallels are slim and hard to draw. What does India have to do with high-tech, highly centralized, extremely powerful totalitarian governments? Aside from poetic references to creation being the "dream of Brahma", in what way does Hindu mythology at all resemble the nightmare world of Dal Quor? The "tash" and "kai" and "lash" and "var" syllables sound "Sanskrit-like", sure, but only because -- just as J.R.R. Tolkien did when he picked similar consonant clusters to make prominent in Black Speech and the speech of the Valar -- they happen to be sounds that are uncommon and therefore harsh-sounding to the English-speaking ear. When you yourself are steeped in a certain culture, that makes everything look familiar to you. I'm Chinese, and I was instantly saying, "Oh, the whole Dhakaani Empire feels a lot like Western attitudes toward ancient China" and "The flight of the Adarians from the rise of Riedra is a lot like what happened to traditional practitioners of Chinese religion when the Communist Party took control" and "The dynamic between the Five Nations is a lot like the Three Kingdoms period after the fall of the Han Dynasty" and "I bet the attitude of most Silver Flamers toward Thrane is like that of ordinary Chinese Buddhists toward Tibetans" and so on. And there *are* parallels there, because, well, there really aren't that many different ideas in the world. "New, repressive social order kicks out small groups of traditionalists". "Formerly huge and powerful empire passes away leaving mysterious archeological remnants." "Formerly unified region splits into quarreling factions each seeking return of the old dynasty." "Squabbling political factions are maneuvered between by a minority social group that prides itself on neutral dealings and cultural detachment." You can make these match anything, in fantasy or reality. One of my favorite parts of the Dark Sun campaign was trying to figure out what real-world culture the different city-states were based on. Some were easy for me, others were harder. I remember feeling the light bulb switch on in my head on a flight home from Japan, where they were showing a special presentation on Angkor Wat (which I had never heard of before) and I suddenly realized the obvious connections to Nibenay. A person could claim that all of this is ridiculous, that Nibenay couldn't possibly have any connection to Angkor Wat because the people living in the real-world area didn't actually have an evil sorceror king who was turning into a dragon. I don't think that is an entirely valid point of view, though. I'm sure you can understand why. Then you're playing a game that I sometimes find fun to play but that, in all honesty, I seriously discourage people from doing. It's all too easy to get the brain bug that everything must be based on something else rather than that *some things are just similar*. Half of the idiotic threads that go nowhere on these boards are things like "What real-life person is this character based on?" or "What would this event be in real-life history?" or "Isn't Eberron *really* based on this random anime/novel series/other game I experienced once?" "Is X based on Y" things never end, and everyone has a different opinion about them, and they're ultimately quite insulting -- I am perfectly capable of inventing things that may be subconsciously *influenced* by other things in real life or fiction I experienced that *are*, nonetheless, new, and not merely "versions" of something else. Sure, Angkor Wat is *like* Nibenay, but it *isn't* Nibenay, and to say that Nibenay is "based on" Angkor Wat is patronizing and stupid, as though Angkor Wat is so unique that one couldn't design a similar locale with a similar history that turned out the way it did for similar reasons without having purposely and consciously based the one on the other. Just as I see some clear and obvious elements of Catholic stereotypes in Thrane, I see clear and obvious elements of Jewish stereotypes in D&D gnomes, although as I said earlier I won't bother getting into the specifics here because I think it would ultimately just get the post erased. I've gamed with more than one Jewish friend who saw the same stereotypes (one of whom is, in fact, a modern-day "jester" or comedian). None of them seemed really offended by them, but they were real enough that they recognized them. Sure, because when you're *in* a culture it's *easy* to see everything as somehow relating to you and things you've experienced your whole life. That doesn't make you actually objectively right. I don't think that a claim that orcs were anti-semitic stereotypes would have generated much if any response, because there really isn't anything about orcs that can be seen as an anti-semitic stereotype that I can think of. That people felt the need to respond so vehemently so a similar suggestion about gnomes, and then later censure the discussion, says to me that there was something about the idea that people knew in their hearts contained at least a grain of truth. *sigh* Yes, some accusations are easier to levy than others. I could more easily say Thrane is an anti-Catholic or anti-Muslim stereotype than that it's an anti-Chinese stereotype. That doesn't mean those accusations are actually worthwhile or true. Look at it this way -- do you actually think orcs are a stereotype against any specific "barbarian" culture in real life and are therefore offensive, or are they simply an example of the *universal* conflict between civilizations and the barbarians in their hinterlands? Do you think -- and yes, I'm going to purposely go out on a limb and say something I actually think is offensive -- black people or Native Americans should be offended by orcs? After all, orcs are uncivilized, brutal and ugly, and many white people have thought black people were uncivilized, brutal and ugly. Does that mean that orcs are based on black people? And I *have* heard things like this before. It was like the Star Wars nonsense -- if any fictional group of people has *any* fictional negative characteristics, then those will be fictional negative characteristics that, in real life, have been attributed to a real group of people (there aren't any negative characteristics that have *never* been attributed to a real group of people) and so there will be people coming out of the woodwork claiming that this must be what that race "really" is or is "based on". I think it was people betraying *their own* nasty racism when they said that the fact that Jar-Jar Binks was a silly, goofy character who spoke in a fractured English dialect meant that he was an Afro-Caribbean stereotype (even though he *didn't actually directly resemble* any Afro-Caribbean stereotype, nor did his accent sound anything like any actual Afro-Caribbean dialect), or that because Neimoidians were greedy, heartless and cowardly and spoke with an overcareful enunciation this made them an Asian stereotype (and I was a lot madder at the people saying this than I was at George Lucas). It becomes ridiculous. It's like Jay Leno said: "I don't understand why there weren't any Germans complaining about the battle droids, or Italian women complaining about the Wookiees." Keith, I'd like to close by stating for the record that I don't believe that you personally are an anti-semite; I think you're a great game designer and author, and if I were really offended by Eberron I'd give it the same treatment I give systems like FATAL that really ARE offensive -- I'd forget about it and not play it or talk about it. That isn't the case here. You've created a great world to play in, and written some very enjoyable books (I'm really looking forward to seeing how you wrap up the Dreaming Dark trilogy!). You didn't invent D&D gnomes, though, and I think you'll admit that you do in fact (consciously or not) draw from many real-world cultures and stereotypes when crafting your fantasies. Or he creates imaginary cultures that, because all cultures share particular similarities with each other, are inevitably like some real-world cultures -- and yet which particular ones continues to cause much disagreement among people who have different areas of interest and therefore different senses of what's important about them.
operations 09-10-06, 02:07 AM	Now, to take the news media of Eberron tangent in a whole different direction. The Zilrago Gnomes control 25% of the 'media' of Eberron, or at least Khorvaire. They have a stunning reputation for being actually 'Fair and Balanced', and neutral in their reporting. What does this do to the other 75% that has to compete with that? In virtually any given economic system competetion breeds excellence, so are the other mdeia outlets alos good sources? Do they strive to have that same level of quality so that they can perhaps get a higher market share? Or does perhaps one (or more) of the other sources of news perhaps try and slant the news in their favor, causing a terrible shift in the public perceptions of a nation/race/technology/magic? Sounds like a thread for a really good investigation centered adventure or campaign right there.
Hellcow 09-10-06, 02:37 AM	What does this do to the other 75% that has to compete with that? Bear in mind that the other chronicles - of which there are far more than three - have many things to offer, not the least of which is local focus. To begin with, the KC may be "fair and balanced", but some people don't WANT balanced coverage; many Aundairians may prefer the pro-Aundair slant of the Scroll. Sharn: City of Towers notes that while people may turn to the KC for international news, the Sharn Inquisitive keeps them on top of local gossip and also serves as a soapbox for the anti-monarchy editor. So chronicles can try to compete by being as good as the KC - or they can simply try to offer something different, catering to the local market. Just how much assistance did they offer each other durring the daelkyr war. In Don's Dragon Below series we head numerous referances to "Gatekeeper magic paired with Dhakaan steel" working together in the past... I think I just answered this... Note that prior to the Daelkyr incursion, there was no love lost between the orcs and the Dhakaani, who considered the orcs to be savages. The incursion did make allies of the two, but even there, this was a matter of convenience between specific western commanders and Gatekeepers, not a formal alliance with the empire as a whole. The empire was larger and more populous than the orcish territories. Where the two came together, you originally saw conflict, but the common enemy eventually forged alliances. But again, these were local alliances, and not a formal bond between the empire and the orc race. In what's now Droaam, you had many battles in which orc and goblin fought side by side. In Karrnath? Not so much... and undoubtedly, many of the eastern commanders accused their western colleagues of sullying the honor of the empire by working with these savage mystics, blaming this alliance for their own failings (as irrational and unsupportable as this might be).
Werebat 09-10-06, 11:44 AM	The information you're looking for can be found in the Dhakaani Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a), which examines the role of each goblinoid race within the society. Sweet! Thanks, that's very useful information... Mostly about modern Darguun, but easily extrapolated on to get a good picture of the old Dhakaani Empire. Essentially, it's more of a caste structure than anything else. The goblins are the peasant caste, but they are respected for the work that they do; without their support, the soldiers would starve, and so on. Again, a very different attitude from what you see among the Marguul, who follow the "strong rule the weak" philosophy. This caste society will make it a lot easier for players who want to play goblins (and your average goblin has a lot going for him as a PC race). So they weren't slaves in Old Dhakaan. One player is thinking of playing a Blue psion. I think this makes sense, the Blue probably being an escaped experiment of the Daelkyr. As such, most goblinoids would shun or distrust him, because at least some experiments of the Daelkyr serve them, like the Dolgrim. I decided to limit psionics to Kalashtar, Inspired, and "things tainted by Xoriat", so this concept works well for me. Yes, in my opinion they did enslave members of other races. In fact, I believe the gnome Dragonshard does talk about them taking gnomes as slaves. With that said, I also think that there were Dhakaani emperors whose main goal was to enforce Dhakaani culture on other races - resulting in cities of second class citizens as opposed to literal slaves. This is where you'd get your neutral approach: in their opinion, what they are ULTIMATELY doing is bringing Dhakaani culture to these benighted creatures. Hmm. But surely at best these "outsiders" would be considered less than normal goblins. Maybe less distrusted than the Blues, but still. I guess it would depend on how I chose to run things -- some emporers would have enforced slavery, some might have freed the slaves, and it might have tacked back and forth over the ages? So you could have an unusual situation where a new Dhakaani clan emerges from hiding... that's actually made up of DWARVES whose ancestors were converted to Imperial rule thousands of years ago. They follow the Dhakaani customs, have dirgesingers and chainmasters, and wish to be part of the reformed Dhakaani empire... but how do the modern Dhakaani feel about them? Of course there are other more monstrous races roaming around, too, like gnolls, ogres, and the like. Doubtless the Dhakaani would have dealt with them in the same way. I might end up making up a vague social "pecking order", or caste assignment, for each of these races, since the goblinoids organize themselves in a similar manner. Maybe they assigned gnolls to be huntsmen and scouts, ogres would obviously have been drafted into the armies to serve alongside bugbear shock troopers, kobolds would be mine slaves and delicate laborers like tailors, etc. The savage gnomes they may have looked upon as "useless", or not good for anything that the normal goblins weren't already good at doing. Of course Orcs would look upon slavery as distasteful, because they all know that if someone is living on land that you want, you don't *enslave* them; you stave in their head with a battleaxe, rip out their innards, and eat them raw! *Enslaving* them would be, well, *barbaric*! There were certainly many evil leaders and soldiers among the Dhakaani, along with many good ones... just like in most of the Five Nations. But as a society, I'd go lawful neutral. Interesting. It seems like they'd lean more towards Evil than Good to me, being that they tend to worship the Dark Six (although a question about that later on) and practice slavery. Also the MM says goblinoids tend to be Evil, although this IS Eberron. (Orc Druids): Ultimately, I think role-playing considerations are the answer... not simply in how the PC roleplays his character, but in how NPCs will interact with him. In this time period, the orcs hold the secrets of the druidic mysteries, and it would be very hard for a member of another race to earn induction into this circle... and remember, the Greensingers, Wardens, etc just aren't around right now, and for that matter, the Dhakaani don't have clerics; if you want a divine caster around at all, orc druids are your best bet. You might be able to make a case for a Talenta maskweaver, but he'd be VERY far afield if he's on the west coast, and there's the question of why he isn't serving his tribe. Woah! No clerics for the Dhakaani? I'm sure you know the material far better than I do, but where is this mentioned? I thought the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six were around in one form or another since Draconic times! Why wouldn't the goblinoids have worshipped them? In any case, an orc druid should have access to resources others do not. He may know of magical locations (locations that can only be activated by someone with orc blood). He may be given missions or equipment by the inner circle of the Gatekeepers. He may be called upon to perform rituals than only Gatekeepers can be part of. So he does take a hit; it's true, being a divine caster with a Wisdom bonus feels painful. But by comparison, the Dhakaani essentially have NO divine casters... and the Gatekeeper receives noncombat benefits from his decision. It might not be unreasonable, then, to keep Druid as a class limited to the Orc race for this time period. Although it does beg several questions, such as the possibility of Orc/Hobgoblin crossbreeds and what their stats would be. Furthermore, a orc druid DOES have strength; add in a barbarian level or two and be a battlin' druid! This might be the best answer of all, encouraging Orc Druids to play to their strengths. Even one level of Barbarian combined with the Extra Rage feat (not to mention Action Points) would keep such a character in rages for the day without much loss to spellcasting ability. These more physical-oriented Orc druids might tend to focus on wildshaping combat, and PrCs like the Warshaper and Nature's Warrior. You can make a decent character build like this that utilizes the tradeoff between Wisdom and Strength without keeping it a penalty. Hmm. Note that prior to the Daelkyr incursion, there was no love lost between the orcs and the Dhakaani, who considered the orcs to be savages. The incursion did make allies of the two, but even there, this was a matter of convenience between specific western commanders and Gatekeepers, not a formal alliance with the empire as a whole. Yes, and this tension is one of the fun things about a campaign like this. The PCs will be from rival cultures that basically HAVE to find ways to trust each other and get along, because of an even greater enemy. Along the way there is room for outside intrigue from either culture, possibly planted by the Daelkyr themselves. Ooh, and of course there'd be room for an insane, evil Gnome fleshcrafter working with the Daelkyr. Of course... - Ron ^*^
Hellcow 09-10-06, 02:41 PM	Sweet! Thanks, that's very useful information... Mostly about modern Darguun... Bear in mind that it specifically addresses the Dhakaani clans, who have done their best to retain the customs of the empire. Modern Darguun is (for the moment) ruled by the Ghaal'dar, who don't follow these traditions. The Ghaal'dar certainly couldn't stand against a united Dhakaani force, but at the moment, the clans aren't united. Hmm. But surely at best these "outsiders" would be considered less than normal goblins. Certainly. That's why I said "second class citizens". One of the key points about this is that most Dhakaani wouldn't want to live with such creatures. Hence my point on the dwarf clan. The Dhakaani might conquer a region and leave just enough goblinoids to maintain control and establish the government - but the goal is to instill their culture among the conquered people, so they consider themselves citizens of the empire. They don't want dwarves coming and living in their cities; but when the emperor is passing through, they expect the dwarves to arrange a celebration and provide suitable accomodations. They expect taxes and tribute. And if they start a new campaign in the territory, they might call on the dwarves to provide soldiers - although they wouldn't expect these soldiers to be up to Dhakaani standards, so they'd probably be, essentially, cannon fodder. some emporers would have enforced slavery, some might have freed the slaves, and it might have tacked back and forth over the ages? It's not a matter of "freeing" the slaves. Dhakaani place a different value on "freedom"; again, goblinoids' role in society is based on race, and the DHAKAANI have little choice. Freedom isn't the greatest virtue to them: dedicated service to the Empire is. They wouldn't see slavery in the same way as we do; they see slaves as members of a fourth caste, lucky to be a part of Dhakaani society. By and large, you wouldn't have cruelty towards slaves, beyond what was necessary to enforce obedience. Outsiders living in a city of their own kind simply governed by Dhakaani would be a different case, and allowed to fill roles normally assigned to goblinoids. But non-goblinoids in a goblinoid city would be limited to these fourth-caste roles. As you suggest, slave-citizens would likely be assigned tasks based on their perceived racial strengths. However, taking something like ogres, given their low intelligence (unlike bugbears, who have no Int penalty) and the issue of how far they can be trusted, I'd expect them to be typically used as heavy laborers, with only ogres of multiple generations being trusted to fight alongside the main armies. With that said, bear in mind that gnolls and ogres are largely found in the west, and the empire dominated the center of the continent. So while you might find such slave-citizens in western communities, it wouldn't be widespread. Of course Orcs would look upon slavery as distasteful... Certainly. In general, the Dhakaani are about imposing order on chaos; the orcs realize that a certain amount of chaos is part of nature. Furthermore despite the common bond of the Gatekeepers, "the orcs" weren't "THE ORCS" - the were scattered tribes, each with their own customs and traditions (though again, respect for the Gatekeepers would be an important bond). Bear in mind that there WERE orcs who served the Daelkyr, either willingly or as slaves; these are the Ancestors of the modern cults of the Dragon Below in the Shadow Marches. Interesting. It seems like they'd lean more towards Evil than Good to me, being that they tend to worship the Dark Six (although a question about that later on) and practice slavery. A) The Dhakaani were an agnostic society. Worship of a 16-god pantheon arose as the empire collapsed (following the Daelkyr incursion), but this religion is not practiced by the Heirs of Dhakaan, who hold to the original traditions of the empire. While the Ghaal'dar and Marguul often turn to the Dark Six, bear in mind that worshipping an evil god doesn't make you evil; the Medusa dragonshard discusses the reasons that the medusas worship the Shadow, and one reason is that they see AUREON as the evil god and the Shadow as the persecuted party. B) Agreed, slavery is an evil practice. Among the Dhakaani, however, it was not an extensive practice - again, they'd rather have the outsiders living in their own cities under Dhakaani "guidance" than fill their own cities with slaves - and approached with minimal cruelty. No way to call it good, and certainly the major evil practice of the society, but I'd still call them neutral overall. Again, structure and order are their greatest goals. Also the MM says goblinoids tend to be Evil, although this IS Eberron. The Monster Manual alignments tend to be completely meaningless in Eberron, with a few exceptions (outsiders, creatures whose alignment is enforced by magic). By the MM orcs are supposed to tend to be evil too, and don't have a whole lot of druids. No clerics for the Dhakaani? I'm sure you know the material far better than I do, but where is this mentioned? Page 304 of the Eberron Campaign Setting Book. I thought the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six were around in one form or another since Draconic times! Why wouldn't the goblinoids have worshipped them? I'm not sure I follow. Remember that in Eberron, the gods do not physically manifest. The fact that there were cultures (such as the giants) who worshipped a form of the Sovereign Host doesn't give a reason for the goblins to do so; what's remarkable is that they DID find a religion remarkably similar to the Sovereign Host after the collapse. During their height, they simply never developed clerics as part of their culture, instead basing their "religion" on the concept of the empire itself; their spiritual leaders were the bards who inspired the people with tales of heroes and emperors of the past. In any case, I'm afraid I've spent all the time I can afford to here. If you have specific questions for me, please direct them to me at BossytheCow. Otherwise, I hope the campaign works out for you!
ArcTan 09-10-06, 02:55 PM	A) The Dhakaani were an agnostic society. Worship of a 16-god pantheon arose as the empire collapsed (following the Daelkyr incursion), but this religion is not practiced by the Heirs of Dhakaan, who hold to the original traditions of the empire. While the Ghaal'dar and Marguul often turn to the Dark Six, bear in mind that worshipping an evil god doesn't make you evil; the Medusa dragonshard discusses the reasons that the medusas worship the Shadow, and one reason is that they see AUREON as the evil god and the Shadow as the persecuted party. One of the bits I like from PGtE is the implication that the goblins were the one who invented a complete, sixteen-god pantheon, whereas the original human invaders had only the nine gods of the Sovereign Host -- and it was because of this that they took the goblinoid gods they didn't share to be "evil" gods and redefined them as opponents of the Sovereign Host. (Except, I assume, for one god who didn't fit this model at all and whom they simply banned the worship of -- the Overthrown.) In the modern day, most goblins who worship the Dark Six are doing so to purposely attack humans and attack the human ideas of what is good or evil -- they worship the gods the humans see as evil and reject the gods the humans have taken as "their" gods. By contrast, the Lhesh Haruuc and the government of Darguun are trying to persuade people to worship the whole pantheon and place emphasis on the nine gods of the Sovereign Host, to emphasize what the goblins have in common with the humans rather than what drives them apart. B) Agreed, slavery is an evil practice. Among the Dhakaani, however, it was not an extensive practice - again, they'd rather have the outsiders living in their own cities under Dhakaani "guidance" than fill their own cities with slaves - and approached with minimal cruelty. No way to call it good, and certainly the major evil practice of the society, but I'd still call them neutral overall. Again, structure and order are their greatest goals. In other words, much more similar to the way the slave caste was treated in cultures like ancient China or ancient Rome or, for that matter, sub-Saharan Africa than the way we think of slavery most often today (plantation slavery in the American South). A form of slavery that is, yes, racist, and, yes, oppressive, but not necessarily more oppressive than the oppression that the poorest and most excluded levels of any society feel. Sharn nominally doesn't have slavery, and yet the poorest members of the underclass are probably no better -- and in many cases worse off -- than they would have been as slaves in Dhakaan. At least in Dhakaan the state as a whole felt a real responsibility to all under its protection, even the very weakest and poorest -- in Sharn the ruling bodies and the rich really don't seem to care at all as long as their own interests aren't threatened. (Ah, capitalism.) Also, of course, Sharn actually *does* have slavery, even though it's officially been banned, thanks to that seedy underworld. Once again we see that Chaotic alignment is just as capable of producing Evil as Good, same as with Lawful alignment.
Hellcow 09-10-06, 04:01 PM	In other words, much more similar to the way the slave caste was treated in cultures like ancient China or ancient Rome or, for that matter, sub-Saharan Africa than the way we think of slavery most often today (plantation slavery in the American South). Precisely.
OneWinged4ngel 09-10-06, 04:18 PM	Great points and comments as always, Keith! :D Maybe this information on the nature of Darguun, goblinoids, slavery and possibly some other subjects would be a good idea for a Dragonshard? Well, if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're an anti-semite... :( I think people are just prone to jumping to wild conclusions. :mymy:
Werebat 09-11-06, 05:36 PM	Great points and comments as always, Keith! :D Maybe this information on the nature of Darguun, goblinoids, slavery and possibly some other subjects would be a good idea for a Dragonshard? Well, *I'D* sure be interested in a Dragonshard regarding adventures set in the past and dealing with the closing off of Xoriat! :^) Lots of material there for some very cool adventuring, playing goblinoids and orcs, and a great use for Lords of Madness! Well, if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're an anti-semite... :( Why on Earth would you be sad that he isn't an anti-semite? :smirk: - Ron ^*^
eehamburg 09-11-06, 06:07 PM	If you keep talking like this, they'll kill this thread too, so drop it. I know for a fact that the last thread was deleted because of a CoC violation, and this thread is moving in the same direction. I'd like to be able to reference Keith's post in this thread in the future, since it's another great piece of Eberron information, so let's leave it alone, shall we? I agree with ekomega here ... we have a terrific source of info in KB ... let's not ruin the tidbits of information on fantasy roleplaying by bringing up info on real life ... it will cause more problems then it is worth.