caster level vs. reality [Archive] - Wizards Community

caster level vs. reality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Squiid
02-01-05, 05:07 PM In all the Eberron information I've read, it has been clear that while magic is rather normal in the world, high level PCs and powerful characters (lvl 10+) are not. If that is the case, how are there so many magic items that are commonly used by the dragonmarked houses, yet with unrealistic caster levels?

All of the channeling rods have a CL of 17. most of the greater dragonshard focus items are CL 10 or higher. Lightning Reins are CL 12. Are there that many high level magewrights running around doing the bidding of the dragonmarked houses? even if they have artificers working on these things, the amount of high level characters would seem to belie the theme that there are few powerful PCs. many of the items were created in response to the last war, so these items couldnt have been around from a time time in the past when "more powerful magics" were being wielded.
Squiid
02-01-05, 05:10 PM I re-read my post and just wanted to say im not bashing the campaign setting--i love the thing. i was just wondering if there was a discrepency or if there was more info that i should read to understand Eberron better.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
02-01-05, 05:28 PM Eberron's wonderous items are created using dragonshards and eldritch machines such as creation forges that help make items like the ones you describe.
Creation forges in particular use technology recorded on schemas found in Xen'drik, and allow rather low level Cannith heirs to create numerous and powerful magic items, so long as they can find the right schema.
In short, Eberron uses items that bend the usual rules to improve the flavour of the setting without having to have high level characters running around.
zambuka
02-01-05, 07:15 PM I think the issue here is the difference between commonly used and easily available.

Low level items, the everbright lanterns etc are used commonly and are mass produced thanks to various forges. High level items are in use a lot as well, but that does not mean there are a lot of them. There are maybe one or two dozen lighning rail reigns avaliable (with 2 or three spare). Maybe there would be only 90 to 100 speaking stones distributed amongst the larger towns and cities across Khorvaire, and they would only be made when a new one is needed.

With things like the channeling rods a house would probably only have access to maybe a dozen at best. Some would be family heirlooms handed down from father to son, some would be held by the Family and loaned out as needed. You wouldn't be able to walk in off the street and just buy one and there wouldn't be endless chambers deep underground stocked to the ceiling with these things. If you want one you have to find it, steal it, rent ,make it yourself or pay a huge sum of money to the appropriate house.

Channeling rods have been used for centuries so over a period of 2 or 3 hundred years you only need to have 5 or 6 high level artificers during that period who are willing to make these to get the limited supply you need.

Because many people can use these powerful items, they don't generally have charges or wear out, you only need a small number of them and then share them around. To create enough of the newer items you only need maybe a half dozen highish level artificers.

Just remember that while these powerful items are used regularly it does not mean there are a lot of them.
Marshall Stone
02-01-05, 07:32 PM In addition to what Ieattrollsforbreakfeast (dang long username, hope I got it right) and Zambuka have mentioned, IIRC the houses can also get together vast groups of magewrights and artificers and what have you to work on the making of these items. So where one powerful artificer would be able to do the job if they had one, they instead can get several lower level artificer's to work on one item.
And as has been mentioned before, it's not like thier have never being skilled Mages and Artificers in the past who could make such items.
Brastan
02-01-05, 07:59 PM I am in agreement with ieattrollsforbreakfast and zambuka. The caster levels are for the Players not for the DM. As the #1 rule the DM can ignore the rules. Most times this is not a good idea. Creation Forges and other Eldrich machines are a story based excuse for doing so. They are accentually a set of guide lines on working outside of the rules. One guide line is that there can be many magic items with out many item making high level spell casters. Players don't need to be able to make use of this out of rules process as they already have benefit from it. They are able find potions, scrolls and other items for sale as supplies not as hand crafted rare items.
Edymnion
02-01-05, 08:02 PM Yeah, don't forget that there is simply a lack of high level NPCs NOW.
There was the Last War that the setting is just coming out of, which decimated all sides. There could have easily been high level characters that all fought, and died, in the war. That was a long war, after all. More than long enough for the high level guys to fall one at a time until they were all gone.

So, a lot of the high level items could actually be leftovers from the past, either the recent past or the ancient past. Keith has said that, while Sharn has lots of skycoaches (the flying vehicles in Sharn), they are still very hard to create, and its just that over the decades and centuries, the number has slowly increased up to current levels.
Squiid
02-04-05, 09:15 PM speaking of skycoaches, WHERE ARE THE STATS FOR THESE THINGS? i've scoured the Eberron handbook and couldnt find anything on them. i used them in my campaign and i just describe them as coaches without the wheels that could fly. someone help me out here.
Straylight
02-04-05, 10:27 PM Read the new novel, City of Towers (AKA "The Player's Guide to Eberron"). It includes a lot of good info, much of it neatly organized into a glossary and lexicon in the back of the book.

Included among the info is some good stuff on skycoaches, which are based on the same idea as airships, with the operative part of the term being "ship." Skycoaches aren't elemental-bound like true Airships, but use variants of flight and levitation magic (mostly made possible by the Syranian manifest zone which Sharn is built in) to perform a similar function.

Alternatively, remember the Thai food boat in The Fifth Element? Same idea, only with magic instead of technology.
Somebloke
02-05-05, 04:28 AM I can definately see a lot of these things as family heirlooms, kept aside in vaults and brought out only for familiar, high paying customers or serious missions...imagine the paperwork involved for a character who wanted to use them!
Warflail
02-05-05, 05:06 AM Two things spring into my mind anyway...

1> "Uh... they were whacked in the last war. It lasted two generations after all."

2> "What is this 'EL' your character speaks of Jimmy? Does he refer to Lady Elaydrin di'Cannith? 'Encounter level'? What is that?"

;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Squiid 02-01-05, 05:07 PM	In all the Eberron information I've read, it has been clear that while magic is rather normal in the world, high level PCs and powerful characters (lvl 10+) are not. If that is the case, how are there so many magic items that are commonly used by the dragonmarked houses, yet with unrealistic caster levels? All of the channeling rods have a CL of 17. most of the greater dragonshard focus items are CL 10 or higher. Lightning Reins are CL 12. Are there that many high level magewrights running around doing the bidding of the dragonmarked houses? even if they have artificers working on these things, the amount of high level characters would seem to belie the theme that there are few powerful PCs. many of the items were created in response to the last war, so these items couldnt have been around from a time time in the past when "more powerful magics" were being wielded.
Squiid 02-01-05, 05:10 PM	I re-read my post and just wanted to say im not bashing the campaign setting--i love the thing. i was just wondering if there was a discrepency or if there was more info that i should read to understand Eberron better.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-01-05, 05:28 PM	Eberron's wonderous items are created using dragonshards and eldritch machines such as creation forges that help make items like the ones you describe. Creation forges in particular use technology recorded on schemas found in Xen'drik, and allow rather low level Cannith heirs to create numerous and powerful magic items, so long as they can find the right schema. In short, Eberron uses items that bend the usual rules to improve the flavour of the setting without having to have high level characters running around.
zambuka 02-01-05, 07:15 PM	I think the issue here is the difference between commonly used and easily available. Low level items, the everbright lanterns etc are used commonly and are mass produced thanks to various forges. High level items are in use a lot as well, but that does not mean there are a lot of them. There are maybe one or two dozen lighning rail reigns avaliable (with 2 or three spare). Maybe there would be only 90 to 100 speaking stones distributed amongst the larger towns and cities across Khorvaire, and they would only be made when a new one is needed. With things like the channeling rods a house would probably only have access to maybe a dozen at best. Some would be family heirlooms handed down from father to son, some would be held by the Family and loaned out as needed. You wouldn't be able to walk in off the street and just buy one and there wouldn't be endless chambers deep underground stocked to the ceiling with these things. If you want one you have to find it, steal it, rent ,make it yourself or pay a huge sum of money to the appropriate house. Channeling rods have been used for centuries so over a period of 2 or 3 hundred years you only need to have 5 or 6 high level artificers during that period who are willing to make these to get the limited supply you need. Because many people can use these powerful items, they don't generally have charges or wear out, you only need a small number of them and then share them around. To create enough of the newer items you only need maybe a half dozen highish level artificers. Just remember that while these powerful items are used regularly it does not mean there are a lot of them.
Marshall Stone 02-01-05, 07:32 PM	In addition to what Ieattrollsforbreakfeast (dang long username, hope I got it right) and Zambuka have mentioned, IIRC the houses can also get together vast groups of magewrights and artificers and what have you to work on the making of these items. So where one powerful artificer would be able to do the job if they had one, they instead can get several lower level artificer's to work on one item. And as has been mentioned before, it's not like thier have never being skilled Mages and Artificers in the past who could make such items.
Brastan 02-01-05, 07:59 PM	I am in agreement with ieattrollsforbreakfast and zambuka. The caster levels are for the Players not for the DM. As the #1 rule the DM can ignore the rules. Most times this is not a good idea. Creation Forges and other Eldrich machines are a story based excuse for doing so. They are accentually a set of guide lines on working outside of the rules. One guide line is that there can be many magic items with out many item making high level spell casters. Players don't need to be able to make use of this out of rules process as they already have benefit from it. They are able find potions, scrolls and other items for sale as supplies not as hand crafted rare items.
Edymnion 02-01-05, 08:02 PM	Yeah, don't forget that there is simply a lack of high level NPCs NOW. There was the Last War that the setting is just coming out of, which decimated all sides. There could have easily been high level characters that all fought, and died, in the war. That was a long war, after all. More than long enough for the high level guys to fall one at a time until they were all gone. So, a lot of the high level items could actually be leftovers from the past, either the recent past or the ancient past. Keith has said that, while Sharn has lots of skycoaches (the flying vehicles in Sharn), they are still very hard to create, and its just that over the decades and centuries, the number has slowly increased up to current levels.
Squiid 02-04-05, 09:15 PM	speaking of skycoaches, WHERE ARE THE STATS FOR THESE THINGS? i've scoured the Eberron handbook and couldnt find anything on them. i used them in my campaign and i just describe them as coaches without the wheels that could fly. someone help me out here.
Straylight 02-04-05, 10:27 PM	Read the new novel, City of Towers (AKA "The Player's Guide to Eberron"). It includes a lot of good info, much of it neatly organized into a glossary and lexicon in the back of the book. Included among the info is some good stuff on skycoaches, which are based on the same idea as airships, with the operative part of the term being "ship." Skycoaches aren't elemental-bound like true Airships, but use variants of flight and levitation magic (mostly made possible by the Syranian manifest zone which Sharn is built in) to perform a similar function. Alternatively, remember the Thai food boat in The Fifth Element? Same idea, only with magic instead of technology.
Somebloke 02-05-05, 04:28 AM	I can definately see a lot of these things as family heirlooms, kept aside in vaults and brought out only for familiar, high paying customers or serious missions...imagine the paperwork involved for a character who wanted to use them!
Warflail 02-05-05, 05:06 AM	Two things spring into my mind anyway... 1> "Uh... they were whacked in the last war. It lasted two generations after all." 2> "What is this 'EL' your character speaks of Jimmy? Does he refer to Lady Elaydrin di'Cannith? 'Encounter level'? What is that?" ;)