Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Addax 06-27-04, 09:50 PM	If someone were to use an antimagic field at the front of a running lightning rail I'm under the assumption it would cause the magic stones that keep it levitating to cease their functioning. How do you think this would best translate into game rules? Ugly I'd imagine. Are there possible failsafes against this? It would definetly make for a very cinematic game moment!
Singing Urgosh 06-27-04, 09:58 PM	By my understanding of how the lighting rail works each train has dozens of stones under it at each time all along its length. Therefore by placing the anti-magic field on the front of the train you 'may' be able to deactivate all the stones on the lead carriage but at best I would say you would get maybe half. Either way, I do not think this would de-rail the train but it would certainly slow it and make for a very unpleasant ride as the unsupprted nose weighed down the rest of the carriage that was still supported by the conductor stones. If however you could black out a section of track (i.e. have about 3 anti-magic fields in a row along the track, then you would effectively prevent the first carriage from being supported at one time and it should plough into the earth at about 30mph/48kmph. Just my opinion, Stay sane
geminiknightii 06-28-04, 01:09 AM	I actually pondered the whole derailing issue myself. Seems to me you wouldn't even have to use an anti-magic field, just go in and steal a few feet of conductor stones, particular in an area where the line bends or curves. I can't imagine the line itself is that heavily guarded, but then again I'd think they'd have made the stones fairly heavy and bulky to move. j
JBW 06-28-04, 02:14 AM	but then again I'd think they'd have made the stones fairly heavy and bulky to move. And quite possibly trapped too... Jay
Jimmy_Groove 06-28-04, 02:22 AM	Not to mention most definitely secured, nailed down, and all of that.
Geethree 06-28-04, 02:48 AM	This does basically what you want, though it's an alternate method. The bandits (or whoever you want to derail the rail) have secured some of their own conductor stones. They create a short, brancing path for the train to go on. However, the train will run out of room quickly and would crash. Here's a (poorly drawn) diagram. http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v190/Geethree/example.gif
Mytholder 06-28-04, 05:30 AM	My nasty campaign-opening scene: The PCs are on the lightning rail. A bunch of Warforged hijack the train, and one of them takes control of the engine - as it approaches the turn-off for the old branch line to Cyre. Unless the characters can fight their way to the front of the chain and wrest the controls off the lead Warforged, the train and all its passengers are heading right into the heart of the Mournlands. The train will be chopped up and used for parts by the Lord of Blades...the passengers won't be so lucky.
Mystery Man 06-28-04, 01:49 PM	Originally posted by Singing Urgosh By my understanding of how the lighting rail works each train has dozens of stones under it at each time all along its length. Therefore by placing the anti-magic field on the front of the train you 'may' be able to deactivate all the stones on the lead carriage but at best I would say you would get maybe half. In reality... If only the back of the rear car slips off its tracks it would get pulled back on after going around a turn or something similar. If the front of the front car gets derailed its a bad thing. I'm thinking an antimagic field in front of the lead car would be devistating if there are no failsafes. Plus forget antimagic. Drop a sphere of annilhilation in front of it and dig a deep hole. :D
BalancedOne 06-28-04, 01:54 PM	Reverse Gravity on the area the train is coming to and use Gust of Wind to blow it off the track while in the Air
RaynerApe 06-28-04, 02:09 PM	You, people, have no hearts. There is one wondrous thing on Eberron and the first thing you do is to plan to blow it into little bits. Here is what kind of precaution I'd use - on each station and some distances there are guardhouses that do daily inspection on their distances, making sure there are no traps, mines, magical distruptions and such. One of the reasons the rail is expensive to cost 5 gp per mile is because someone has to pay these poor people (and their families when they stumble upon a Sphere of Annihilation) some gold. Also, while a magical stone is removed for whatever reason, it causes a lightning chain effect which not only deals a huge amount of damage, but also sends a visual energy impulse in both directions from the point the stone was removed - for example a fury of lightnings, shortcircuit effects, glow, static energy cracks and so on. The impulse is rather powerful and instataneous. Each of the guardstations that receive such a signal will immediately dispatch a group to check and repair the rail and also contact the telepath/psionic on the train, so they stop temporarily while the rail is repaired. This should rule outabout 75% of all possible attacks. The rest of 25% require a group of elite (1) telepaths, (2) magicians and (3) warriors that travel along with the train (perhaps two-three groups doing shifts) that (1) watch out for any mental activity in a large radius ahead from the train; (2) secure the train's balance even if it leaves the rail with extremely powerful levitation, innertia killer or similar spells/artifacts (no matter how expensive these get, they are available as a emergency tools, and the company keeping the train should be able to afford it); and finally (3) warriors to fight off the groups of bandits that might want to play rough.
JohnnyONeal 06-28-04, 03:00 PM	The PCs are on the lightning rail. A bunch of Warforged hijack the train, and one of them takes control of the engine - as it approaches the turn-off for the old branch line to Cyre. Unless the characters can fight their way to the front of the chain and wrest the controls off the lead Warforged, the train and all its passengers are heading right into the heart of the Mournlands. The train will be chopped up and used for parts by the Lord of Blades...the passengers won't be so lucky.Fun idea! Just remember, whenever you've got someone hijacking the train who's not a dragonmarked member of House Lyrandar, they've got to have a reliable way to cast charm monster on the air elemental pushing it along.
ENHenry 06-28-04, 03:03 PM	Originally posted by RaynerApe One of the reasons the rail is expensive to cost 5 gp per mile is because someone has to pay these poor people (and their families when they stumble upon a Sphere of Annihilation) some gold. If you're talking about cost of passage, it's 5 SILVER per mile, not 5 gold per mile. Also, while a magical stone is removed for whatever reason, it causes a lightning chain effect which not only deals a huge amount of damage, but also sends a visual energy impulse in both directions from the point the stone was removed - for example a fury of lightnings, shortcircuit effects, glow, static energy cracks and so on. Neat DM fiat. :) (2) secure the train's balance even if it leaves the rail with extremely powerful levitation, innertia killer or similar spells/artifacts (no matter how expensive these get, they are available as a emergency tools, and the company keeping the train should be able to afford it);[/B] If they had these, why would they need the conductor stones? In our world, the railroad companies secured the rails against Indians and other threats by ceding land in 1-mile wide "strips" all the way down the railroad lines to settlers; these "strip towns" enabled waystations to be built at regular intervals, etc. Sure, there was vandalism, but due to pressure by army forces and local authorities it did not occur as often as some would think. Also, what would someone have to gain BY blowing up the lightning rail? EVERYBODY uses it, and its multinational connectivity and commerce flowing via this conveyance means that there is too much to lose by even its destroyers. You have far more scenarios to ROB the lightning carriages than you do to simply cause mass destruction. Any DM can house-rule all manner of preventatives to keep players from being malicious, but I suggest just letting PC's live with the consequences of their actions - the line gets repaired, the PC's are singled out and hunted like criminals (which they are), and they've screwed themselves. Mytholder, I LOVE your train hijack. :) I may use that one day.
Ashrem Bayle 06-28-04, 03:06 PM	As was mentioned over on ENWorld, a Immovable Rod left hovering a few feet above the track could make quiet a mess.
Addax 06-28-04, 03:20 PM	Don't get me wrong RaynerApe, I love the Lightning Rail! I think it's a fantastic concept. I was actually thinking of if the BBEG wanted to rob or assasinate someone on the train this may be a method that they could consider trying. My players tend to be less malicious, and sometimes at least avoid collateral damage. All in all, great posts!:)
RaynerApe 06-28-04, 04:30 PM	The difference between our world and Eberron is that in our world, trains and rails were produced and maintained fast enough so the destruction of one railway only meaned massive losses that could be eventually recovered. In Eberron there is one lightning rail and I think the company that maintains and profit from it should be ready for everything that could possibly destroy this unique revenue - to the point where this company would pay wizards theoretics to evaluate the methods of railway destruction and find solutions to these possible harms, to the point of mandating laws prohibiting certain magical research, hunting renegate wizards theoretics selling their research to terrorist groups of jobless war-crazed generals who seek to start The Next War, and everything else you can imagine. I'm sure the "Railroad Baron", whoever he is (I don't really have ECB, yet, so I do blind interpretations), would be highly paranoid.
Amaranthine 06-28-04, 05:15 PM	Originally posted by Ashrem Bayle As was mentioned over on ENWorld, a Immovable Rod left hovering a few feet above the track could make quiet a mess. Only if your Immovable Rod is also Invulnerable. I'd say that the sheer tonnage behind the impact would instantaneously deal enough damage to destroy the Rod. I'd also assume that the front of the train is probably plated with adamantine, just to cut down on the collateral damage from roadkill. Possibly even a permenant Wall of Force coating the leading edge. The Wall would certainly be easier to keep clean, as splattered birds and bugs wouldn't have anything to stick too.
Mytholder 06-28-04, 06:55 PM	Originally posted by JohnnyONeal Fun idea! Just remember, whenever you've got someone hijacking the train who's not a dragonmarked member of House Lyrandar, they've got to have a reliable way to cast charm monster on the air elemental pushing it along. Pfeh! Head or hand of a suitable dragonmarked inside an alchemical/magical gadget wired to the controls. The artificer must disarm with only seconds to spare!
Magagumo 06-28-04, 08:03 PM	Hehe, I'm working to start my own mini-campaign in the fall (mixing it with 2nd ed's Labyrinth fo Madness, so we'll see how that turns out ;)). But a thought was to strongly involve the Plane of Madness. As the players flee a BEG's lair with stolen goods, his fellow cultists (who are working to accelerate the coming of the Far Realms re-uniting with Eberron) direct a conjunction along the path of the Lightning Rail as the party uses it to flee to safety. Strange monsters begin to stalk the hallways, appearing to slay passengers, causing carnage, and disappearing. Meanwhile, the front cab has come to life, perverted by the corrupting energies of the Far Realms and instilled not only with personal vitality, but also a desire to feed. As the train races along, more of its form gains sentience (and subsequent hunger) and the party must sever the corrupted cab like a gangrenous limb before the train fully "evolves", and purposely derails itself in order to feed on the living things within... Thoughts? :D
The Sequal 06-28-04, 08:41 PM	There was an episode in the Gatekeepers anime where the engine of a bullet-train was possessed in a vaguely similar manner, but that was so it would crash into and destroy the station at the end of the line (tokyo as I recall). Perhaps I should mention that in the anime thread.
Geethree 06-28-04, 08:43 PM	An immovable rod isn't technically immovable. I'm sure a lightning rail would plow through it.
Moleculor 06-29-04, 02:42 AM	Yarh, an Immovable Rod can be moved. It supports up to 8,000 pounds before moving. It can be moved with a DC 30 strength check (to move it 10 feet in a single round). I'm pretty sure the combination of the 30MPH hulk of metal that's probably heavier than 8 tons (the typical automobile weighs half that, and rail engine is MUCH bigger) and the 30MPH thing probably being more than equivilent to that DC30 strength check (probably a 40 or 50), the rod would move. Probably be deflected to one side, and since it's probably only 15-20 feet to one side, it would maybe make the train lurch a bit, but that's all. 'course, there's the previously mentioned fact that your rod is not invulnerable.
BalancedOne 06-29-04, 02:08 PM	Oh, I love the Lightning Rail! I just have a Pryomaniac Warforged Ctr. and I get a little to wraped up in my ctr sometimes
bahamut_0 06-29-04, 03:19 PM	Omg, it's things like this that make you realise how much Eberron rules. This thread is great!!!
scaryfroman 06-29-04, 03:42 PM	btw... it would be house orien, not house lyrandar that would control the train...
Incenjucar 06-29-04, 05:18 PM	During the Civil War, the North -wrapped- the South's train tracks AROUND TREES as both a gesture of 'up yours' and to ruin their supply lines. Trains make supplying armies -very- easy, thus, they're usually the first thing anyone attacks if they can manage it. Putting up huge walls in front of the train would be fairly simple. Setting up a wide-spread fire would, as well. Using Move Earth to swallow up the stones wouldn't be that hard. Digging out the area and diverting a river in to it..
RaynerApe 06-29-04, 05:25 PM	Makes you wonder, how did this train survived so far with so many viable and easy methods of rail destruction?...
Amaranthine 06-29-04, 05:26 PM	According to the most recent Ebberon article, ripping up the 'track' was a widely practiced act to disable an opponents supply lines.
Caul 06-29-04, 09:11 PM	Any guesses (or maybe I missed this in the book) on how many coaches there are travelling the rail, and if their might be different types? Is each rail between major stops a separate line that has its own coach? How large do the coaches get (how many cars, accomodations, etc?)
Arisen Phoenix 06-30-04, 02:54 AM	The Lightning Rail isn't the only thing you could cause havoc with... Think of what would happen in Sharn should someone let off enough anti-magic. The ECSB talks about some of those acts, as does the latest Dragonshards. It would seem they're less common than you'd think. The insinuation is that there are protections on the lines and in the city for that kind of action, but that they're not perfect. For 5sp/mile/person, you'd think that you could get some guarantee of protection. (That will be 1050GP to get from Sharn to Fairhaven, please; the Five Nations forbid that they get the Cyre line repaired - Sharn to Krona Peak is 2030GP by my calculations!) Considering that the Conductor Stones have no value listed, it may be that they count as minor Artifacts, and are immune to a normal antimagic field. Certainly you would think that a skyscraper dwarfing even modern architecture would count as an Artifact! As to number of cars, I would think that would be limited by the number of people you think would actually use the service on a given run, or the amount of cargo. Since it's essentially frictionless, it only has inertia holding it back... But how many people or how much cargo is worth the cash House Orien charges? I'd say most of them are one car, maybe two, and that each line runs once a week. Question to add to this conversation: The service entry mentions that the Lightning Rail goes 30mph, but the Lightning Rail item says 25mph. Which is it?
Incenjucar 06-30-04, 03:18 AM	Antimagic shouldn't be that common in Eberron, due to its current level issues. But that doesn't do a thing to stop that you could just get a bunch of goblins to pile up some dirt on the track, maybe some bushes, broken wagons, a few dead animals... The reason the US's railways were safe-ish was because people lacked even low level magic, and because the country was more or less unified, at least enough that people would get hunted down and shot. When you have something going between countries, law enforcement becomes all the weaker. Throw magic in to it... and it only takes a fraction of the time to cause serious havoc.
Iver Gearsham 06-30-04, 05:14 AM	A Wall of Force on the tracks would be one way to stop it but then you could put a Rod of Cancelationon the tip of the cow catcher. And who's thought of not putting an Immovable Rod in front of the train but In one of the cars all those passangers lined up and packed in Squish! You could sheath the Rod in a Bladed device (insert special matirial )as it would protect the rod and up the damage potentile. An airbag(Levitation Telikinetic) emergency one use item might be cheaper too cushion a crash. It could autodeploy when ever an acident does happen so that few people actualy know about it(the device not the acident) and the L-rail traval does not get a bad rep.
bahamut_0 06-30-04, 06:19 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Digging out the area and diverting a river in to it.. I was just thinking that :D
Feyd Rautha 06-30-04, 11:12 AM	To imagine the reasons as to why the Lightning Rail is still viable and "safe" as a mass transit answer, one needs only look at the history of the railways. Even during many of the great wars after the invention of the railway, the majority of it has been undamged. The book does not that there were areas near the front lines where stones were moved/destroyed/etc., but overall, the fronts were the only areas of true combat. Despite all their power technology, I don't think there were any massive bombing raids akin to WWII where miles of lightning rail track would have been destroyed. Yes, they had airships, but not only are the stones more resillient than our train tracks, but what point would there be in sacrificing an entire airship to the project? Not only would the houses be against you (remember that they remained neutral and are merchants above all else), but the enemy would undoubtedly have their own airships on patrol and they would then converge and crush the interloper. Overall, I think that only the act of terrorists (reasons why the rail doesn't go through the lands of the Ashbound) would give reason for such a massive blunder. Assassins have more respect in the craft than a massive slaughter for one person (it is against their "code"), evil warlords want to rule the world and controlling the lightning rail is much more important than destroying it, bandits would be committing suicide due to the retribution they would be calling down upon themselves from the houses and nations, and hijackers would hijack the train instead of destroying it (thus their title). As for how an Ashbound terrorist would remove the track? Earth elemental movers, stone shaping the lightning stone, stone to mud spells, and so on and so forth.
Sereno 06-30-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Feyd Rautha As for how an Ashbound terrorist would remove the track? Earth elemental movers, stone shaping the lightning stone, stone to mud spells, and so on and so forth. And, even so, the retaliation by House Orien would probably be quite prolific. I'm fairly sure there are guards on lightning rail coaches, perhaps like skymarshals on airlines. Probably from guild of Sentinels.
simon brumat 06-30-04, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by bahamut_0 I was just thinking that :D me too:rofl:
Brianish 06-30-04, 06:09 PM	Besides causing it to derail, a hippogriff cranking at its top (running) fly speed could keep up with it long enough for a couple of the boys to board.
Incenjucar 06-30-04, 06:25 PM	The thing with 'defending' the rail is that you can rip up the tracks -days- ahead of time, and Eberron isn't exactly chock full of 'seeker' magic these days. Just hire some goblins to hire some goblins to hire some goblins to hire a cash-desperate wizard to use a Move Earth scroll.
Hrothgar the Dwarf 06-30-04, 07:44 PM	Originally posted by Brianish Besides causing it to derail, a hippogriff cranking at its top (running) fly speed could keep up with it long enough for a couple of the boys to board. I was under the impression that you can't "run" with a fly speed. Am I wrong on this? The most i believed you would be able to do would be a double move. Please correct me if I am wrong as this will greatly affect a dragon campaign of mine hrothgar
Brianish 06-30-04, 09:36 PM	Not sure, but double move could still manage it. That'd be 200 feet in a round (220 if it's magebred, but I don't think they can be). Assuming small scale speed is proportional to overland speed, that'd be 2/3 the speed of a lightning rail. If you came down near the front of the train, that'd be more than enough time to dismount onto the roof. (Checks would be murder, but you know.)
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-30-04, 11:31 PM	I think a Prismatic Wall would do wonders in this situation. It disintegrates all objects and effects going through it, including Wall of Force. :devil:
Magagumo 07-01-04, 11:12 AM	You cannot run with the Fly spell, but you can run if you naturally have a fly speed. Dragons can really move :D
Brianish 07-01-04, 01:33 PM	So yeah, a dragon (even a youngish gold, bronze or white) could even catch up to a lightning rail.
Hrothgar the Dwarf 07-01-04, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo You cannot run with the Fly spell, but you can run if you naturally have a fly speed. Dragons can really move :D awesome.. do you have a page reference or even what book at least would help to find this? I need to show this to my DM ! ;)
Magagumo 07-02-04, 11:54 AM	Hmm, I would say the the PHB's Fly spell would show your DM were his mispereception of (no running while flying) orginated from. I would then shoot for the 3.5 MM glossary for movement modes, where it should probably make mention of running. Essentially, if it doesn't say you can't run, you can run while flying :). Interesting side note (hidden within the MM) is that one cannot run if you don't have a Con score. Hope this helps.