Changelings and Dragonmarks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changelings and Dragonmarks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dante4242
06-26-05, 11:23 AM Okay, this is a stretch, but what the hay!

Say a changeling takes the Racial Emulation Feat, which allows him to add a subtype of a creature whose shape he has assumed, allowing him to use racial items, spells, etc. Could he take on the form of a dwarf and then prestige into the Hier of Syberis class?
Siran Dunmorgan
06-26-05, 12:23 PM Okay, this is a stretch, but what the hay!

Say a changeling takes the Racial Emulation Feat, which allows him to add a subtype of a creature whose shape he has assumed, allowing him to use racial items, spells, etc. Could he take on the form of a dwarf and then prestige into the Hier of Syberis class?

Hier (from the Greek, hier-, 'sacred') of Syberis seems more like taking a level of cleric of the Dragon Above, as per page 35 of the Eberron Campaign Setting, and isn't something that would require racial emulation, nor a prestige class.

Now, if you meant Heir of Syberis :), then 'no', since racial emulation doesn't give the changeling any of the traits of the race: the changeling could learn to behave like an Heir of Syberis, but it would not have access to the supernatural power of the mark, any more than emulating a gnome would give it the ability to cast dancing lights.

—Siran Dunmorgan
dante4242
06-26-05, 12:52 PM But it isn't a trait that comes with the race, but one that develops. For instance, if you assumed the warforged shape, you would gain the construct subtype, but would not gain the dr, armor or fortification. Now you could take the Spiked Body feat, which is a warforged feat, becuase you now quailfy, right? In addition, Repair Light Damage would now work on you.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
06-26-05, 01:15 PM Regardless, you must be an actual member of the race to take the dragonmark feats, subtype has nothing to do with it. A drow (which has the elf subtype) cannot take the Mark of Shadow, so a changeling with the elf subtype cannot. Dragonmarks are something mysterious, powered by the Prophecy. Under no ordinary circumstance (and by that, I mean anything that isn't a plot in its own right), can a creature that is not of the exact race take a Dragonmarked feat, or the Hier of Siberys PrC.
EvilDrPuma
06-26-05, 05:15 PM Regardless, you must be an actual member of the race to take the dragonmark feats, subtype has nothing to do with it. A drow (which has the elf subtype) cannot take the Mark of Shadow, so a changeling with the elf subtype cannot. Dragonmarks are something mysterious, powered by the Prophecy. Under no ordinary circumstance (and by that, I mean anything that isn't a plot in its own right), can a creature that is not of the exact race take a Dragonmarked feat, or the Hier of Siberys PrC.

Agreed. According to the Writ of Baker (set forth in the House Phiarlan Dragonshard articles), the bloodlines that carry the Mark of Shadow have been isolated from Aerenal for long enough that, strictly speaking, not even Aereni or Valenar elves carry it...only two bloodlines of Khorvaire elves. But that's beside your point, of course. Dragonmarks are not simply feats to find a way to rules-lawyer one's way into taking, they are an integral part of the way the setting works, and they have their own history and way of manifesting that should not be mucked with so casually.
KP91
06-26-05, 09:00 PM You could take levels of the Heir of Syberis but you can't get a mark because you arn't in a dragonmarked family. There isn't any prerequisite saying you have to be a dragonmarked (or a dwarf he is the example.)

Also, drow are a subrace not something with the elf subtype. Theres a difference, just not a big one.
Psionycx
06-27-05, 01:34 AM Technically a dragonmark is not a racial trait since not all members of a given race possess it, or even have the potential to. Being of particular race is merely a prerequisite to having a particular dragonmark, but from a campaign setting perspective, it is not assumed that any human could simply manifest the Marks of Handling, Making, Sentinel, etc for example. That generally only happens if they are from a specific bloodline.

This being the case I don't think that a dragonmark fits into the category of racial traits that could be emulated by things like feats or spells.
pseudonym
06-27-05, 11:23 AM How often does this question come up? Once a month or more frequently?
sooperspook
06-28-05, 05:44 AM Actually by RAW you could. The Racial Emulation feat says you count as the mimiced race for ALL purposes, so yes, as long you you are mimicing a dragonmarked race you could take a Dragonmark feat. You would lose access to it as soon as you changed into a different race though.

Note that a DM who allowed you to do this is nto to be trusted as he is probably planning on killing your PC as horribly as possible. :D
pseudonym
06-28-05, 08:05 AM Actually by RAW you could. The Racial Emulation feat says you count as the mimiced race for ALL purposes, so yes, as long you you are mimicing a dragonmarked race you could take a Dragonmark feat.

Least Dragonmark requires that you be a member of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. You can use Racial Emulation all you want, but if you were not born into the bloodline of the dragonmarked house, you can't get the feat. No amount of rules lawyering can change the fact that if mom and dad were changelings and not humans of house Cannith, for example, then you simply are not part of the bloodline of that house, and cannot manifest the Mark of Making, Racial Emulation non-withstanding.
okaynowa
06-28-05, 09:17 AM I believe the last time this question came up, someone said, "A changeling can fool other people into thinking he's an elf, but he can't fool the Prophecy."
ChronosCrow
06-28-05, 12:53 PM What is it with people and their constant wishful thinking of making non-Dragonmarked races able to have dragonmarks. It's an exclusive thing due to the spooky (sarcasm) Prophecy. I hate to say it that way, but in reality, Keith always explains that it's just not possible by the fluff of the game. By the rules it might accidently be possible, but that's completely not intended and if brought to the forefront to the D&D errata team they'd find someway around the new idea and fix it so that idea won't work anymore.
BloodyRoots
06-28-05, 01:39 PM Hey, if a WoTC author can give the wrong dragonmark to the wrong race then I say you can give a Dragonmark to anyone you damn well please.

I wouldnt but you can. :)
Sithis
06-28-05, 04:58 PM Least Dragonmark requires that you be a member of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. You can use Racial Emulation all you want, but if you were not born into the bloodline of the dragonmarked house, you can't get the feat. No amount of rules lawyering can change the fact that if mom and dad were changelings and not humans of house Cannith, for example, then you simply are not part of the bloodline of that house, and cannot manifest the Mark of Making, Racial Emulation non-withstanding.
Well, theoretically either mom or dad could be a perfectly upstanding member of a dragonmarked house and junior just favored the other parent. I still wouldn't personally allow the dragonmark but you didn't quite slam the RAW door shut.
Owatkiam
06-28-05, 08:56 PM Somewhere I recall reading a rule to this effect that a shape shifter can fake the mark as part of a disguise, but they won't actually have the mark.

Anyone trying to break the game like this should be taken out and hung with the rest of the munchkins.
dante4242
06-29-05, 09:43 AM Man, people sure do get riled these here boards. Simple little question and comes all the vinegar and nasty. Just trying to get a baseline for how far I could take the Racial Emulation Feat. How about growing spikes like a warforged? ;)
sh0
06-29-05, 12:40 PM Anyone trying to break the game like this should be taken out and hung with the rest of the munchkins.

Geez, Dante, can you bring the rope tomorrow night?
elecgraystone
06-29-05, 02:24 PM Man, people sure do get riled these here boards. Simple little question and comes all the vinegar and nasty. Just trying to get a baseline for how far I could take the Racial Emulation Feat. How about growing spikes like a warforged? ;)
Racial Emulation only works for the humanoid type.
Warforged NOT being humanoids, can't be emulated.
Now if you change into a merfolk, you can breath underwater and gain a swim speed.

The only way that a changeling can get a mark is:
#1 one of his parents or ancestors was from the house.
#2 have emulation feat
###NOTE The mark goes away and doesn't come back if the changeling ever changes shape out of the marks race after gaining this feat.
(keith already answered this)
The only way to change races and still have a mark is to get the Chameleon class and use the feat you pick everyday as the mark.
Sithis
06-29-05, 05:14 PM Racial Emulation only works for the humanoid type.
Warforged NOT being humanoids, can't be emulated.
Now if you change into a merfolk, you can breath underwater and gain a swim speed.

The only way that a changeling can get a mark is:
#1 one of his parents or ancestors was from the house.
#2 have emulation feat
###NOTE The mark goes away and doesn't come back if the changeling ever changes shape out of the marks race after gaining this feat.
(keith already answered this)
The only way to change races and still have a mark is to get the Chameleon class and use the feat you pick everyday as the mark.
I thought Keith kept a pretty strong "it's not possible" opinion of Dragonmarks appearing on non-marked races, when did he loosen up on this case?
elecgraystone
06-30-05, 11:35 AM I thought Keith kept a pretty strong "it's not possible" opinion of Dragonmarks appearing on non-marked races, when did he loosen up on this case?
I wish I could tell you.
#@@$@$%$#@$ non-working search function! :rant: :rant: :raincloud :waits: :censored: :tantrum: :banghead:
I'll try to find it.
The main reason was that the emulation feat states that you count as the mimiced race for ALL purposes.
Meaning that if you qualify every other way, you can take the feat.
He also said that if you ever don't qualify (ie change race) you lose it permanently!
I'll post a quote as soon as I can find it.
:D
elecgraystone
06-30-05, 12:07 PM ASK KEITH FAQ, POST#172
Thread II Page 67.

As regards Racial Emulation, you could make the case that you could use the feat to become human, gain the sub-type, and then take the dragonmark feat when you go up a level, assuming that you have a blood tie to the house and that the DM doesn't just say "It's just common sense that you have to have been born human."

Under these circumstances I might even allow you to do it. With the understanding that if you *ever* shifted your form, you would no longer be human, no longer meet the requirements of the feat, and it would go away forever. So Racial Emulation lets you become human, and as a human of House Deneith, you could get the mark. But if you ever stop being human - bang, it's gone. You can't just keep it around in reserve. So hey, a passer might just be able to pull this off, if he's willing to be human for his entire life. But a becomer just couldn't keep it.
___________________

I REALLY wish the search would work.
Finding this was a pain in the *****!
Baron Mystros ir'Kelten
06-30-05, 01:20 PM By the rules it might accidently be possible, but that's completely not intended and if brought to the forefront to the D&D errata team they'd find someway around the new idea and fix it so that idea won't work anymore.

Well you know ChronosCrow, a Changling could emulate an elf with the Mark of Shadow. In Sharn there is a tatoo place called Rufus' House of Tatoo. Rufus is a great artist and can have a masterfully stencilled copy of the Dragonmark of choice.

However, when the Changling becomes something else...he'll have a lot of explaining to do. :pile:
Sithis
06-30-05, 02:19 PM ASK KEITH FAQ, POST#172

I REALLY wish the search would work.
Finding this was a pain in the *****!
Thanks for the work! :cheer:

I wish they'd get that damn search function running.
elecgraystone
07-01-05, 11:42 AM Thanks for the work! :cheer:

I wish they'd get that damn search function running.
Thanks!
I started a thread about the search function in the general section after my 2 HOUR non-function search .
Come on over if you want to.
It's a place to vent.

OK, come over and LOOK.
The thread got locked. (I PM'd the moderator to find out why and to try to get it opened)
Majorafire77
07-01-05, 05:42 PM Well, theoretically either mom or dad could be a perfectly upstanding member of a dragonmarked house and junior just favored the other parent. I still wouldn't personally allow the dragonmark but you didn't quite slam the RAW door shut.

Hmmm. I don't think that a changeling qualifies as a member of any dragonmarked house ever. Honestly, when you think about it, if mom was an elf in a marked house, she ****s with a changeling, the new changeling comes out and ****s with a dwarf, and a new dwarf comes out then you have a dwarf in an elven dragonmarked house.:nonono:

Doesn't count in my book.
anarco_rata
07-01-05, 06:52 PM i didn't read it all, so forgive me if i repeat...
To be a dragonmarked character you need to be both of the race and with the same blood as the house the dragonmark belongs to. So there'es no way a changeling could form a working dragonmark, because it is not in its blood, although i think he could mimic a dragonmark if hje wanted to, it just wouldn't work, and surely would be a little diferent...
Sithis
07-02-05, 12:29 AM Honestly, when you think about it, if mom was an elf in a marked house, she ****s with a changeling, the new changeling comes out and ****s with a dwarf, and a new dwarf comes out then you have a dwarf in an elven dragonmarked house.
You need to be both of the blood of the house and of the house's race to manifest a dragonmark. The dwarf is still not an elf, no matter what is in his family history.

A changeling can have a parent of a dragonmarked house and can get around the racial requirement by taking the Racial Emulation feat so that they are considered of that race when shifted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dante4242 06-26-05, 11:23 AM	Okay, this is a stretch, but what the hay! Say a changeling takes the Racial Emulation Feat, which allows him to add a subtype of a creature whose shape he has assumed, allowing him to use racial items, spells, etc. Could he take on the form of a dwarf and then prestige into the Hier of Syberis class?
Siran Dunmorgan 06-26-05, 12:23 PM	Okay, this is a stretch, but what the hay! Say a changeling takes the Racial Emulation Feat, which allows him to add a subtype of a creature whose shape he has assumed, allowing him to use racial items, spells, etc. Could he take on the form of a dwarf and then prestige into the Hier of Syberis class? Hier (from the Greek, hier-, 'sacred') of Syberis seems more like taking a level of cleric of the Dragon Above, as per page 35 of the Eberron Campaign Setting, and isn't something that would require racial emulation, nor a prestige class. Now, if you meant Heir of Syberis :), then 'no', since racial emulation doesn't give the changeling any of the traits of the race: the changeling could learn to behave like an Heir of Syberis, but it would not have access to the supernatural power of the mark, any more than emulating a gnome would give it the ability to cast dancing lights. —Siran Dunmorgan
dante4242 06-26-05, 12:52 PM	But it isn't a trait that comes with the race, but one that develops. For instance, if you assumed the warforged shape, you would gain the construct subtype, but would not gain the dr, armor or fortification. Now you could take the Spiked Body feat, which is a warforged feat, becuase you now quailfy, right? In addition, Repair Light Damage would now work on you.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-26-05, 01:15 PM	Regardless, you must be an actual member of the race to take the dragonmark feats, subtype has nothing to do with it. A drow (which has the elf subtype) cannot take the Mark of Shadow, so a changeling with the elf subtype cannot. Dragonmarks are something mysterious, powered by the Prophecy. Under no ordinary circumstance (and by that, I mean anything that isn't a plot in its own right), can a creature that is not of the exact race take a Dragonmarked feat, or the Hier of Siberys PrC.
EvilDrPuma 06-26-05, 05:15 PM	Regardless, you must be an actual member of the race to take the dragonmark feats, subtype has nothing to do with it. A drow (which has the elf subtype) cannot take the Mark of Shadow, so a changeling with the elf subtype cannot. Dragonmarks are something mysterious, powered by the Prophecy. Under no ordinary circumstance (and by that, I mean anything that isn't a plot in its own right), can a creature that is not of the exact race take a Dragonmarked feat, or the Hier of Siberys PrC. Agreed. According to the Writ of Baker (set forth in the House Phiarlan Dragonshard articles), the bloodlines that carry the Mark of Shadow have been isolated from Aerenal for long enough that, strictly speaking, not even Aereni or Valenar elves carry it...only two bloodlines of Khorvaire elves. But that's beside your point, of course. Dragonmarks are not simply feats to find a way to rules-lawyer one's way into taking, they are an integral part of the way the setting works, and they have their own history and way of manifesting that should not be mucked with so casually.
KP91 06-26-05, 09:00 PM	You could take levels of the Heir of Syberis but you can't get a mark because you arn't in a dragonmarked family. There isn't any prerequisite saying you have to be a dragonmarked (or a dwarf he is the example.) Also, drow are a subrace not something with the elf subtype. Theres a difference, just not a big one.
Psionycx 06-27-05, 01:34 AM	Technically a dragonmark is not a racial trait since not all members of a given race possess it, or even have the potential to. Being of particular race is merely a prerequisite to having a particular dragonmark, but from a campaign setting perspective, it is not assumed that any human could simply manifest the Marks of Handling, Making, Sentinel, etc for example. That generally only happens if they are from a specific bloodline. This being the case I don't think that a dragonmark fits into the category of racial traits that could be emulated by things like feats or spells.
pseudonym 06-27-05, 11:23 AM	How often does this question come up? Once a month or more frequently?
sooperspook 06-28-05, 05:44 AM	Actually by RAW you could. The Racial Emulation feat says you count as the mimiced race for ALL purposes, so yes, as long you you are mimicing a dragonmarked race you could take a Dragonmark feat. You would lose access to it as soon as you changed into a different race though. Note that a DM who allowed you to do this is nto to be trusted as he is probably planning on killing your PC as horribly as possible. :D
pseudonym 06-28-05, 08:05 AM	Actually by RAW you could. The Racial Emulation feat says you count as the mimiced race for ALL purposes, so yes, as long you you are mimicing a dragonmarked race you could take a Dragonmark feat. Least Dragonmark requires that you be a member of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. You can use Racial Emulation all you want, but if you were not born into the bloodline of the dragonmarked house, you can't get the feat. No amount of rules lawyering can change the fact that if mom and dad were changelings and not humans of house Cannith, for example, then you simply are not part of the bloodline of that house, and cannot manifest the Mark of Making, Racial Emulation non-withstanding.
okaynowa 06-28-05, 09:17 AM	I believe the last time this question came up, someone said, "A changeling can fool other people into thinking he's an elf, but he can't fool the Prophecy."
ChronosCrow 06-28-05, 12:53 PM	What is it with people and their constant wishful thinking of making non-Dragonmarked races able to have dragonmarks. It's an exclusive thing due to the spooky (sarcasm) Prophecy. I hate to say it that way, but in reality, Keith always explains that it's just not possible by the fluff of the game. By the rules it might accidently be possible, but that's completely not intended and if brought to the forefront to the D&D errata team they'd find someway around the new idea and fix it so that idea won't work anymore.
BloodyRoots 06-28-05, 01:39 PM	Hey, if a WoTC author can give the wrong dragonmark to the wrong race then I say you can give a Dragonmark to anyone you damn well please. I wouldnt but you can. :)
Sithis 06-28-05, 04:58 PM	Least Dragonmark requires that you be a member of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. You can use Racial Emulation all you want, but if you were not born into the bloodline of the dragonmarked house, you can't get the feat. No amount of rules lawyering can change the fact that if mom and dad were changelings and not humans of house Cannith, for example, then you simply are not part of the bloodline of that house, and cannot manifest the Mark of Making, Racial Emulation non-withstanding. Well, theoretically either mom or dad could be a perfectly upstanding member of a dragonmarked house and junior just favored the other parent. I still wouldn't personally allow the dragonmark but you didn't quite slam the RAW door shut.
Owatkiam 06-28-05, 08:56 PM	Somewhere I recall reading a rule to this effect that a shape shifter can fake the mark as part of a disguise, but they won't actually have the mark. Anyone trying to break the game like this should be taken out and hung with the rest of the munchkins.
dante4242 06-29-05, 09:43 AM	Man, people sure do get riled these here boards. Simple little question and comes all the vinegar and nasty. Just trying to get a baseline for how far I could take the Racial Emulation Feat. How about growing spikes like a warforged? ;)
sh0 06-29-05, 12:40 PM	Anyone trying to break the game like this should be taken out and hung with the rest of the munchkins. Geez, Dante, can you bring the rope tomorrow night?
elecgraystone 06-29-05, 02:24 PM	Man, people sure do get riled these here boards. Simple little question and comes all the vinegar and nasty. Just trying to get a baseline for how far I could take the Racial Emulation Feat. How about growing spikes like a warforged? ;) Racial Emulation only works for the humanoid type. Warforged NOT being humanoids, can't be emulated. Now if you change into a merfolk, you can breath underwater and gain a swim speed. The only way that a changeling can get a mark is: #1 one of his parents or ancestors was from the house. #2 have emulation feat ###NOTE The mark goes away and doesn't come back if the changeling ever changes shape out of the marks race after gaining this feat. (keith already answered this) The only way to change races and still have a mark is to get the Chameleon class and use the feat you pick everyday as the mark.
Sithis 06-29-05, 05:14 PM	Racial Emulation only works for the humanoid type. Warforged NOT being humanoids, can't be emulated. Now if you change into a merfolk, you can breath underwater and gain a swim speed. The only way that a changeling can get a mark is: #1 one of his parents or ancestors was from the house. #2 have emulation feat ###NOTE The mark goes away and doesn't come back if the changeling ever changes shape out of the marks race after gaining this feat. (keith already answered this) The only way to change races and still have a mark is to get the Chameleon class and use the feat you pick everyday as the mark. I thought Keith kept a pretty strong "it's not possible" opinion of Dragonmarks appearing on non-marked races, when did he loosen up on this case?
elecgraystone 06-30-05, 11:35 AM	I thought Keith kept a pretty strong "it's not possible" opinion of Dragonmarks appearing on non-marked races, when did he loosen up on this case? I wish I could tell you. #@@$@$%$#@$ non-working search function! :rant: :rant: :raincloud :waits: :censored: :tantrum: :banghead: I'll try to find it. The main reason was that the emulation feat states that you count as the mimiced race for ALL purposes. Meaning that if you qualify every other way, you can take the feat. He also said that if you ever don't qualify (ie change race) you lose it permanently! I'll post a quote as soon as I can find it. :D
elecgraystone 06-30-05, 12:07 PM	ASK KEITH FAQ, POST#172 Thread II Page 67. As regards Racial Emulation, you could make the case that you could use the feat to become human, gain the sub-type, and then take the dragonmark feat when you go up a level, assuming that you have a blood tie to the house and that the DM doesn't just say "It's just common sense that you have to have been born human." Under these circumstances I might even allow you to do it. With the understanding that if you ever shifted your form, you would no longer be human, no longer meet the requirements of the feat, and it would go away forever. So Racial Emulation lets you become human, and as a human of House Deneith, you could get the mark. But if you ever stop being human - bang, it's gone. You can't just keep it around in reserve. So hey, a passer might just be able to pull this off, if he's willing to be human for his entire life. But a becomer just couldn't keep it. ___________________ I REALLY wish the search would work. Finding this was a pain in the *****!
Baron Mystros ir'Kelten 06-30-05, 01:20 PM	By the rules it might accidently be possible, but that's completely not intended and if brought to the forefront to the D&D errata team they'd find someway around the new idea and fix it so that idea won't work anymore. Well you know ChronosCrow, a Changling could emulate an elf with the Mark of Shadow. In Sharn there is a tatoo place called Rufus' House of Tatoo. Rufus is a great artist and can have a masterfully stencilled copy of the Dragonmark of choice. However, when the Changling becomes something else...he'll have a lot of explaining to do. :pile:
Sithis 06-30-05, 02:19 PM	ASK KEITH FAQ, POST#172 I REALLY wish the search would work. Finding this was a pain in the *****! Thanks for the work! :cheer: I wish they'd get that damn search function running.
elecgraystone 07-01-05, 11:42 AM	Thanks for the work! :cheer: I wish they'd get that damn search function running. Thanks! I started a thread about the search function in the general section after my 2 HOUR non-function search . Come on over if you want to. It's a place to vent. OK, come over and LOOK. The thread got locked. (I PM'd the moderator to find out why and to try to get it opened)
Majorafire77 07-01-05, 05:42 PM	Well, theoretically either mom or dad could be a perfectly upstanding member of a dragonmarked house and junior just favored the other parent. I still wouldn't personally allow the dragonmark but you didn't quite slam the RAW door shut. Hmmm. I don't think that a changeling qualifies as a member of any dragonmarked house ever. Honestly, when you think about it, if mom was an elf in a marked house, she **s with a changeling, the new changeling comes out and **s with a dwarf, and a new dwarf comes out then you have a dwarf in an elven dragonmarked house.:nonono: Doesn't count in my book.
anarco_rata 07-01-05, 06:52 PM	i didn't read it all, so forgive me if i repeat... To be a dragonmarked character you need to be both of the race and with the same blood as the house the dragonmark belongs to. So there'es no way a changeling could form a working dragonmark, because it is not in its blood, although i think he could mimic a dragonmark if hje wanted to, it just wouldn't work, and surely would be a little diferent...
Sithis 07-02-05, 12:29 AM	Honestly, when you think about it, if mom was an elf in a marked house, she **s with a changeling, the new changeling comes out and **s with a dwarf, and a new dwarf comes out then you have a dwarf in an elven dragonmarked house. You need to be both of the blood of the house and of the house's race to manifest a dragonmark. The dwarf is still not an elf, no matter what is in his family history. A changeling can have a parent of a dragonmarked house and can get around the racial requirement by taking the Racial Emulation feat so that they are considered of that race when shifted.