Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orion Polaris 04-01-06, 03:23 PM	Do Shifters/Changelings/Kalashtar qualify for the Human Heritage feat? It allows the bearer of such a feat to gain the human subtype, which allows them to take feats solely designated for Humans as well... Only human descended or half-human characters can take the feat. So by the rules, would Kalashtar/Changelings/Shifters be allowed to take such a feat, considering that they are most likely descended, at least in part, from humans?
nyysjan 04-01-06, 03:32 PM	nope, atleast i don't think so, gods know what they have written in one of the supplements about this, but i would have to say no.
Orion Polaris 04-01-06, 03:51 PM	Mind if I ask why?
nyysjan 04-01-06, 03:52 PM	Mind if I ask why? no, not at all :D
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-01-06, 05:10 PM	Shifters, Kalashtar and Changelings cannot take dragonmarks in any case, unless, of course, it is part of your DM's plot. I'm not familiar with the human heritage feat, but regardless it will not allow these races to take standard dragonmarks, even if they gain the human subtype. Why? Because regardless of subtype, the character must still be of the corrent race. Kalashtar, Shifters and Changelings, even if they have the human subtype, are not human, and so cannot take human dragonmarks. It's the same prinicple which forbids half-elves from taking elf dragonmarks, despite having the elf subtype. The other key point to recognise is the second prerequisite of dragonmarks, that you must be a blood member of the house. It's possible for each of these races, but with kalashtar it is extremely unlikely (given kalashtar genetics and their family origins in Adar). As for aberrant dragonmarks, if you allowed these races to gain the human subtype via this Human Heritage feat, they would be able to gain those. It's not a ruling I agree with, but it is the canon in the PGtE. Now, as for eligiblity for this feat, kalashtar and changelings would qualify I think, as both have recognised origins. However, shifters have two origins, one painting them as the progenitors of lycanthropes native to Khorvaire long before humans arrived, the other as decendents of humans and lycanthropes. Whichever you decide is correct will determine their eligibility for the feat.
ThoughtShifter 04-01-06, 06:05 PM	All the "can Half-breed X get a specific dragonmark" threads I've seen lately have given me a question to toss out there... How is it possible for Vol, a dragon-elf, to have manifested the mark of Death, an Elf dragonmark? I don't know if this has been covered, and I know I'm potentially opening a can of worms here but I thought it was kinda wierd!
Belabras 04-01-06, 06:21 PM	All the "can Half-breed X get a specific dragonmark" threads I've seen lately have given me a question to toss out there... How is it possible for Vol, a dragon-elf, to have manifested the mark of Death, an Elf dragonmark? I don't know if this has been covered, and I know I'm potentially opening a can of worms here but I thought it was kinda wierd! Keith has touched on that. Vol was special for all kinds of reasons - one of which was the realization that the Mark of Death would appear one Elves AND Half-dragon Elves. No other mark is known to appear on half-dragons, but then, there aren't many half dragons in Eberron.
Temjinstrife 04-01-06, 06:22 PM	Unfortunately, the jury is out as to whether or not half-elves can take an elven dragonmark. However, since subraces cannot take a mark belonging to a regular race, the Human Heritage feat might not work, as having the human subtype does not automatically qualify you for a dragonmark, much like a duergar having the dwarven subtype does not allow you to take a mark. However, IMC (in my campaign) I would consider it, as balance-wise it is another feat to spend that could probably be spent on better things. Vol is another interesting case... however, since I think dragonmarks don't care about subtype (as explained above), her dragon subtype shouldn't prevent her from taking a dragonmark.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-01-06, 07:30 PM	Unfortunately, the jury is out as to whether or not half-elves can take an elven dragonmark. It's pretty conclusive, half-elves cannot manifest the Mark of Shadow or the Mark of Death, period. Half-orcs cannot manifest the Mark of Sentinel, Passage or Making, either. It's all right in the feat descriptions, and in the flavour, and has been confirmed multiple times by designers. However, since subraces cannot take a mark belonging to a regular race, the Human Heritage feat might not work, as having the human subtype does not automatically qualify you for a dragonmark, much like a duergar having the dwarven subtype does not allow you to take a mark. However, IMC (in my campaign) I would consider it, as balance-wise it is another feat to spend that could probably be spent on better things. Vol is another interesting case... however, since I think dragonmarks don't care about subtype (as explained above), her dragon subtype shouldn't prevent her from taking a dragonmark. Vol is certainly a special case, and the only thing we know for sure is that Vol can have the Mark of Death. It's likely all half-dragon elves can manifest it, but even that is not certain. Personally, I think all half-dragons can manifest an augmented dragonmark. Just as Vol can manifest the Mark of Death, a half-dragon gnome could manifest the Mark of Scribing, and may become a similarly legendary figure.
Volaran 04-01-06, 08:08 PM	As I understand it, with the new races and options, dragonmarks are specifically divided among the standard PHB races so that there would still be attractive reasons to use the basic options. Even in the Player's Guide to Eberron, where many of the sub-races are given optional places, it specifically mentions that only the standard (PHB) racial types can have true dragonmarks. As for Vol being a half-dragon who was bred with the mark of death, there are a number of unusual circumstances and possibilities there. - mechanically, half-dragons are templated members to the normal race - dragonmarks....dragon...a possible mixing that might work with any mark, and possibly empower such a person greatly, if some DM thought it would make a cool story - given that elves are one of the only races aside from the dragons who are long-lived enough to properly study the draconic prophesy, it is possible that the Line of Vol had much more ability than the present houses to predict who would manifest a mark, and perhaps better means of causing it to manifest
Orion Polaris 04-02-06, 04:34 AM	Doesn't it say that subraces can take aberrant marks? So using your line of reasoning, wouldn't the feat allow the said races to take aberrant marks?
Volaran 04-02-06, 06:31 AM	I would put that entirely at the DM's discretion. In one of my campaigns for instance, the answer would be no. In your campaign, if you deside that someone who wants to blow two feats for the equivilent of a 1st level spell, I would not lose sleep over it. Edit: Just checked my copy of "Races of Destiny". It seems the Human Heritage feat was put in place to allow human-descended races to take advantage of the options presented in that book. The comparison is made to the half-elves and half-orcs being considered part of their non-human parent's race for certain purposes. Since Races of Destiny is a non-Eberron book, I would recommend careful consideration before allowing any of the feats or options. Since you already seem to have made the decision to allow some of them, I would say that I see nothing wrong with changelings or kalashtar taking the Human Heritage feat. Shifters being elligible , as mentioned before, would depend on what your preferred origin for the race is. That said, since the feat in question is described as similar to the half-elf/half-orc traits, I would personally not allow any of the true dragonmarks. Half-orcs are elligble for Finding, Half-elves for Detection and Storm. Seems to be part of the prophecy as it stands. If considering allowing an aberrant mark for whatever reason, on a non-standard, humand-descended character, I would recommend making sure to weave it into your story. Such an exception should be important somehow, and discussed with the player, rather than simply allowed due to an unusual combination of feats.
Khaine 04-02-06, 06:33 AM	How is it possible for Vol, a dragon-elf, to have manifested the mark of Death, an Elf dragonmark? I don't know if this has been covered, and I know I'm potentially opening a can of worms here but I thought it was kinda wierd! The same reason a plot-driver PC tiefling (descended from a rakshasa) in my new Eberron can have an Aberrant Dragonmark - DM/author caveat. “He of the striped Mark will unleash the Lord of Unholy Flame when the Twisted Tower falls under the Sixth Moon.”
Kid SixXx 04-03-06, 09:17 AM	Doesn't it say that subraces can take aberrant marks? So using your line of reasoning, wouldn't the feat allow the said races to take aberrant marks? IIRC, the Aberrant Mark feat says that only races that can normally manifest Dragonmarks are allowed to manifest Dragonmarks. Half-Orcs could manifest an aberrant mark, but a normal orc could not. I suppose the important point to remember is that Dragonmarks are not a random phenomenon. The Prophesy (as reflected in the RAW) already determines what races manifest certain Dragonmarks, & that the same rules apply to aberrant marks as well. Technically, there are no subraces in Eberron other than the Drow & they are treated as a separate race from the elves in the setting for lore purporse. Unless you're making an exception as per the alternate rules in the PGtE, Drow cannot normally manifest aberrant marks. If you're including subraces by alternate rules provided in the PGtE, then your logic is sound. Any subrace should manifest the same Dragonmark as the primary racial source (ie. All gnomes would be able to manifest the Mark of the Scribe & be allowed entry into House Sivis).
Volaran 04-03-06, 01:07 PM	If you're including subraces by alternate rules provided in the PGtE, then your logic is sound. Any subrace should manifest the same Dragonmark as the primary racial source (ie. All gnomes would be able to manifest the Mark of the Scribe & be allowed entry into House Sivis). That's not actually correct, according to the PGtE listings. The Dragonmark section has a sidebar about the subraces, which mentions that true dragonmarks only appear in the most common example of the race (PHB version). Sub-races are able to manifest aberrant marks. I believe that this is in part to make provisions for Dragonmarks being one of the things that makes the PHB races attractive character options in Eberron. Of course, as always, any DM's campaign may vary.
Kreistor1 04-03-06, 01:28 PM	The half-dragon-elf Mark of Death and Half-orc Mark of Finding imply that it may be possible for other specific crossbreeds to gain true marks; however, if the Houses know what those are, they aren't telling or breeding for it. It is not unreasonable for a DM to extend those exceptions and have other Houses suddenly discover that some rare crossbreed can produce a true mark. I'm not going that direction in my current campaign; however, it could be an idea for a future one.
Kid SixXx 04-03-06, 01:51 PM	That's not actually correct, according to the PGtE listings. The Dragonmark section has a sidebar about the subraces, which mentions that true dragonmarks only appear in the most common example of the race (PHB version). Quite true. I suppose my point was that if you're going to allow sub-races in the first place, you might as well allow sub-races to gain access to the primary Dragonmarks. Mechanically, there's little chance that anyone would play a regular gnome if Whisper Gnomes were available. Dragonmarks, IMO, wouldn't make a primary race any more appealing to play. If anything, it'd make them less appealing since you'd be burning a feat slot in order to manifest a mark, & most of the benefits from Dragonmarks are lore / setting benefits anyway. If you're going to allow sub-races, you may as well incorporate them completely into The Prophesy. I've got no problems envisioning noble families comprised solely of sub-races serving as the building blocks of a single DM house, or certain sub-races in a DM house being responsible for specific services.
Temjinstrife 04-03-06, 08:08 PM	I remember there being controversy that several sources said that half-elves could take human and elven dragonmarks, and several sources said that they couldn't, depending on their heritage. I'm sick and have no focus, so I can't find examples right now.
Kid SixXx 04-03-06, 08:34 PM	I remember there being controversy that several sources said that half-elves could take human and elven dragonmarks, and several sources said that they couldn't, depending on their heritage.. The table that dictates which races get which dragonmarks is located on pg. 63 of the ECS. There are alternate rules in the PGtE that allow half-elves to take human or elf dragonmarks (like the Half-Elf dragonmarked scion in the novel, The Crimson Talisman, who has access to the Mark of Passage, which is manifested by the humans of House Orien.), but Keith has already said that half-elves do not gain access to human or elven dragonmarks.
mhacdebhandia 04-03-06, 08:48 PM	I seem to recall that Keith Baker suggested that the Mark of Death might have been capable of appearing on elves and half-dragon elves, the same way the half-orcs and humans of House Tharashk share the Mark of Finding.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-04-06, 10:52 AM	I remember there being controversy that several sources said that half-elves could take human and elven dragonmarks, and several sources said that they couldn't, depending on their heritage. I'm sick and have no focus, so I can't find examples right now. There main quote which has caused most of the controversy is in the ECS on page 16 that says 'a small numver of half-elves can be found among the human- and elf-controlled dragonmarked houses." This doesn't mean that they can manifest the marks, just that they can be blood members of the house. It was this confusion which lead to the error in the Crimson Talisman, and has been repeated (erroneously) in some other sources. As Kid SixXx says, the designers have repeatedly told us that half-elves can only use half-elven dragonmarks (which is supported by the rules). I'm not sure what Kid SixXx is referring to, but I have seen no alternate rules that allow half-elves with human or elf dragonmarks in any source (there certainly aren't any in the PGtE dragonmark section).
Kid SixXx 04-04-06, 12:16 PM	I'm not sure what Kid SixXx is referring to, but I have seen no alternate rules that allow half-elves with human or elf dragonmarks in any source (there certainly aren't any in the PGtE dragonmark section). Player's Guide to Eberron, page 72, the end of the third paragraph. IIRC, that's the location of the alternate ruling on half-elves.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-04-06, 02:25 PM	Player's Guide to Eberron, page 72, the end of the third paragraph. IIRC, that's the location of the alternate ruling on half-elves. Ah I see, that's really an error rather than an alternate rule (since it contradicts all other canon sources, and isn't specifically presented as an alternature rule), though I suppose it's technically both.
Kid SixXx 04-04-06, 02:34 PM	Ah I see, that's really an error rather than an alternate rule (since it contradicts all other canon sources, and isn't specifically presented as an alternature rule), though I suppose it's technically both. I agree. IIRC, Keith's already posted in the AKB thread (or another eratta thread) that the details on PGtE pg 72 aren't the way he intended for Dragonmarks to work. Naturally, since Keith also makes the distinction between "Eberron" and "My Eberron" (ie. the one run by individuals) folks have carte blanc to do whatever they want in their own settings as far as Half-Elves & Dragonmarks are concerned & the PGtE provides the RAW for the alternate framework.