Cleric of Corellon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric of Corellon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElberethSilverleaf
04-09-07, 09:31 PM If a cleric of Corellon appears on Eberron with a group of Spelljammers or thru planers travel, does he lose access to his clerical spells? If so why?
Ricohard_Draconis
04-09-07, 10:42 PM answer: depends on the dm

advice:

Most people would say yes since Corellon has no access to Eberron

No, because he would never be able to get there since the Eberron crystal sphere is inpentetrable.

yes, he simply taps into the same 'belief pool' as other clerics of an idea or concept, simply his concept has a name.
Teron Gorefiend
04-10-07, 02:59 AM No, because he would never be able to get there since the Eberron crystal sphere is inpentetrable.
More accurately, there isn't an Eberron crystal sphere. Eberron is a self-contained setting, no more related to the Forgotten Realms than Middle-Earth is to Bas-Lag.
The Ubbergeek
04-10-07, 07:40 AM More accurately, there isn't an Eberron crystal sphere. Eberron is a self-contained setting, no more related to the Forgotten Realms than Middle-Earth is to Bas-Lag.

Well, if you like spelljamer, there may be one - Dark Sun came afterm and yet spelljammer guys presented ideas on how is 'Athaspshere', like how Planescapers speculated on it's planes - and now on Eberron.

Not officialy linked to GREYHAWK (I remind you that the basic setting is still Greyhawk).
Kid SixXx
04-10-07, 08:17 AM If a cleric of Corellon appears on Eberron with a group of Spelljammers or thru planers travel, does he lose access to his clerical spells? If so why?

No he doesn't lose his spells. The divine magic mechanic for Eberron is based on faith in concepts, not divine intervention from a specific god.

If the cleric has faith that Corellon is a divine being, then the cleric will receive spells.

Even with the mechanical argument that there is no Eberron "crystal sphere," the ever-present Plane of Shadow can still serve as a nexus from the Eberron cosmology to another.
polt
04-10-07, 11:43 AM Even with the mechanical argument that there is no Eberron "crystal sphere," the ever-present Plane of Shadow can still serve as a nexus from the Eberron cosmology to another.

Not in my game. No other universes than Eberron exist. I hate that Spelljammer stuff. It's not that you couldn't travel to Greyhawk, but Greyhawk doesn't exist.
Kid SixXx
04-10-07, 12:04 PM Not in my game. No other universes than Eberron exist. I hate that Spelljammer stuff. It's not that you couldn't travel to Greyhawk, but Greyhawk doesn't exist.

I don't use the Plane of Shadow as a bridging nexus either since I don't like mixing my settings, but apparently there are enough rabid supporters of settings featuring plane hopping in higher level (Planescape, FR) to warrant the Plane of Shadow safety valve.

The FR had a pretty nice explanation in a later sourcebook as to why / how Greyhawk & the FR could cross-polinate.
Edymnion
04-10-07, 08:53 PM No he doesn't lose his spells. The divine magic mechanic for Eberron is based on faith in concepts, not divine intervention from a specific god.

If the cleric has faith that Corellon is a divine being, then the cleric will receive spells.Ah, but now there's the kink.
Unlike in Eberron, it is a known FACT that the gods exist in other settings, because people have met them. The gods come down and chat it up with the mortals every now and again (unless you're in Faerun, then you're likely to find one at the pub at least once a week).

Knowing that a god exists and that if you pray to them you will gain power isn't really faith, its knowledge. I'd say that cleric would be in for a rude surprise when he just routinely prays and asks for his spells that day, and nothing happens because he KNOWS he will get spells in exchange for prayer, there's no faith involved.

Bit of soul searching and some demonstrations of genuine faith and he could start casting again, but I would definately put that speed bump in there so he knows something funny is going on.
The Ubbergeek
04-10-07, 09:25 PM The gods rarely come on earth in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and the links.

Berfore saying ridiculous things, get informated.

The gods's presence is sure, but they don't get in the plate of the mortals like that just'because" - in general.

Its like the myths of somes of our religions.

And that do not destroy faith, too. The AThars are a perfect counterpoint - they don't deny there is something called the 'gods' - but tehy don't believe they are what they claims. False.
bbthereaper
04-10-07, 09:37 PM Ah, but now there's the kink.
Unlike in Eberron, it is a known FACT that the gods exist in other settings, because people have met them. The gods come down and chat it up with the mortals every now and again (unless you're in Faerun, then you're likely to find one at the pub at least once a week).

Knowing that a god exists and that if you pray to them you will gain power isn't really faith, its knowledge. I'd say that cleric would be in for a rude surprise when he just routinely prays and asks for his spells that day, and nothing happens because he KNOWS he will get spells in exchange for prayer, there's no faith involved.

Bit of soul searching and some demonstrations of genuine faith and he could start casting again, but I would definately put that speed bump in there so he knows something funny is going on.

I think you're doing injustice to the clerics of other settings. Sure, in Faerun you know damn well that the gods are there (and trying to say there isn't is gonna end you up either a devil, a meal, or part of a wall), but just because you have certainty of their existence doesn't mean that they are any less devout than a cleric from Eberron. I'm sure that fighters in Faerun might make a prayer to Tempus before a battle, but that doesn't mean he's going to be casting divine favor anytime soon. Clerics from other settings have the same level of devotion to their deities, and just because they have confirmation doesn't mean that have any less faith. You can go up to Flamekeep and see the Silver Flame (or at least, a manifestation of it); the Sovereigns can be seen in so many cultures across the world that there's got to be something behind it; if you're an elf with the Right of Counsel feat, you can go up and talk to your gods. Most clerics in Eberron certainly think they have confirmation of the existence of the object of their worship, even if it's not understood by everyone.
Kid SixXx
04-11-07, 06:22 AM The gods rarely come on earth in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and the links.

Not sure about Greyhawk (perhaps that really bad Gord of Greyhawk novel or maybe the Age of Worms if that is considered to be GH canon), but in the FR the gods could pretty much walk to the corner store to buy a loaf of bread during the Time of Troubles.

But yeah, the number of times the gods would willingly show up on the setting game world in question is arguably counted on one hand.

That being said, I'd enforce the faith structure of the setting I'm dealing with. It's not like the cleric himself is keenly aware of the game mechanic that might prevent him from getting spells.

If faith works for the Sovereign Host, then faith should work for Corellon.
hiryuu
04-11-07, 06:23 PM Here's another thing: if the Eberronians got even the slightest idea that spelljamming is possible, expect massive mining operations on the ring of Syberis in months, the great elven navy to find itself curb-stomped within a year, and spelljamming "locks" that let the Eberronians into their own sphere but not anyone else (and expect them to find a way to use phlogiston as a massively destructive portable weapon).

Anyway, deific existence is a pretty well knowable fact in those settings, even if the god never shows up. They've got obvious agents and when you drop a commune you get a phonecall direct from the big guy himself. Either way, the cleric would have to re-align himself with the source of magic: instead of being a recipient, he'd have to swap to a filter.
RogueElement
04-11-07, 06:32 PM You could say that Corellon is a great hero to the elves (maybe to the Valenar if no one else) and has a clergy devoted to him (similar to the Blood of Vol and Lord of Blades). As Edy pointed out, in Eberron, clerics derive their power from their faith rather than from literal entities. So either way, your cleric will still be able to regain and cast spells in Eberron.
Loki5654
04-11-07, 06:46 PM The gods rarely come on earth in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and the links.

Berfore saying ridiculous things, get informated.

The gods's presence is sure, but they don't get in the plate of the mortals like that just'because" - in general.

Its like the myths of somes of our religions.

And that do not destroy faith, too. The AThars are a perfect counterpoint - they don't deny there is something called the 'gods' - but tehy don't believe they are what they claims. False.
There is porbably a decent argument in there somewhere, but your poor spelling and grammar completely undermined your point.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-11-07, 07:45 PM > but in the FR the gods could pretty much walk to the corner store to buy a
> loaf of bread during the Time of Troubles.
>
> But yeah, the number of times the gods would willingly show up on the setting
> game world in question is arguably counted on one hand.

The ToT is rather overblown as an example of how the FR normally works. It was an "end of an era" type of event, much like Dal Quor smacking into Eberron and bringing the age of the giants to an end. Neither happens on anything resembling a routine basis.

Sure, the FR gods are more prone to meddling than the Host, but Vol, the Undying Court, and even the Silver Flame seem to meddle at least as much as the FR gods do (and they have more of a front row seat to the proceedings, too).
Edymnion
04-11-07, 08:41 PM Lets put it this way.
If they have to make a freaking template to apply to people that have had sex with a god, then you know something is wrong.
bbthereaper
04-11-07, 09:01 PM ...what? Er...are you referring to the chosen? I think Elminister is the only one that qualifies for that. That and perhaps the chosen of Sharess, but I digress.
Kid SixXx
04-11-07, 09:31 PM There is porbably a decent argument in there somewhere, but your poor spelling and grammar completely undermined your point.

Porbably?
Kid SixXx
04-11-07, 09:36 PM Sure, the FR gods are more prone to meddling than the Host, but Vol, the Undying Court, and even the Silver Flame seem to meddle at least as much as the FR gods do (and they have more of a front row seat to the proceedings, too).

Yes, but neither Vol nor the members of the Undying Court are considered to be divine beings. Vol is a lich: pretty much our own personal Larloch. The Undying Council is made up of deathless beings: revered but not exactly deities in their own right.

Not even Silver Flame itself isn't even definitively divine, even though it certainly does have the distinct notoriety of having a physical manifestation, unlike the allegorical members of the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six.

Routine or no, during the ToT gods walked the earth & their existance was beyond question.

...what? Er...are you referring to the chosen? I think Elminister is the only one that qualifies for that. That and perhaps the chosen of Sharess, but I digress.

I sure as hell hope that Slarkrethel doesn't.
Marcus Majarra
04-13-07, 01:31 AM Ah, but now there's the kink.
Unlike in Eberron, it is a known FACT that the gods exist in other settings, because people have met them. The gods come down and chat it up with the mortals every now and again (unless you're in Faerun, then you're likely to find one at the pub at least once a week).

Knowing that a god exists and that if you pray to them you will gain power isn't really faith, its knowledge. I'd say that cleric would be in for a rude surprise when he just routinely prays and asks for his spells that day, and nothing happens because he KNOWS he will get spells in exchange for prayer, there's no faith involved.

Bit of soul searching and some demonstrations of genuine faith and he could start casting again, but I would definately put that speed bump in there so he knows something funny is going on.

I find this entire argument to be silly for many reasons:

1) The Undying Court and the Silver Flame actually have a physical manifestation and can be routinely encountered by their faithful. The Aereni know that their faith has power because it keeps their most respected heroes deathless and this deathlessness, in turn, empowers their faithful. Flamic divine spellcasters can visit the main church at Flamekeep to witness the actual Silver Flame.

2) Eberron's divine spellcasting is based on the principle that faith empowers the spellcaster. Knowing that a god exists in no way undermines what faith its spellcasters can have in it. I doubt that any cleric of the Sovereign Host will consider the possibility that his god or pantheon does not exist. In his soul, he knows that both god and pantheon exist. He does not need to witness them to acknowledge it; his divine power is sufficient proof of the god's existence.

3) I highly doubt that every single divine spellcaster has a personal encounter with his or her deity in settings like the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Some may argue that the Time of Troubles in Faerun is a major counter-example here, but I do not think it to be. Look at Adon. Originally a cleric of Sune, he never encountered his goddess and felt betrayed by her. Despite abandoning her faith, he was very much a real cleric of her church prior to the Time of Troubles.

The thing is: faith is based on certainty. And when something is certain, it becomes knowledge. Having faith in something means knowing it is true, regardless of proof.

This said, I would see no reason to deny a cleric of Corellon stranded on Eberron his spells as long as his faith persists. It's extremely unlikely that anyone on Eberron will honestly recognize his power as that of Corellon Larethian; odds are it will be interpreted as a manifestation of a member of the Sovereign Host, depending on the cleric's choice of domains (if not generalized to a personification of the entire pantheon).
JulesCARV
04-13-07, 01:43 AM It's uncertain that a cleric from Greyhawk of FR would be able to function in Eberron (or vice versa). It is also uncertain that a wizard, psion, or sorcerer from Greyhawk or FR would be able to function in Eberron (or vice versa). For example, wizards in Forgotten Realms apparently use something called "the weave" which Eberron and Greyhawk wizards don't use. Psions in Eberron typically channel forces from Xoriat or Dal Quor, which don't exist in FR or Greyhawk.

I think that a fighter, rogue, or barbarian would surely be able to function interchangeably in all settings, but that's about it.

It all depends on how transparent you want magic to be among settings. If you want, you could just say that a psion from Eberron who ends up in Toril somehow just loses all psionic abilities, because he can't access Dal Quor or Xoriat, or that a wizard from Toril who ends up on Eberron loses all magical abilities because he can't access the weave. You could say that a Cleric of Corellon loses all abilities in Eberron -- possibly because he doesn't have true faith in Corellon (although back on Toril Corellon gave him spells anyway), or possibly because all magic is different, and no mage, whether wizard, cleric, or psion, can function interchangeably in all campaign settings.
WolfHati
04-13-07, 02:09 AM I don't think spellcasters should have any permanent ability loss travelling between settings, but I can see it as reasonable that they might have temporary spellcasting problems while adjusting to the way this new world works. Regardless of how different a new setting claims to be, the outcome of magic is similar in nature. It wouldn't take too long for a wizard to figure this out and make slight adjustments, or a cleric to have a crisis of faith and either realize true belief whatever that entails or forsake their god and perhaps embrace another. Sorcerers' powers come from themselves, so that's probably not too big an issue.
Ricohard_Draconis
04-13-07, 02:23 AM I think the difference between FR and Eberron clerics effectively comes down to being very similar to Kierkagards belief in the 'leap to faith'.
TheAnthroDM
04-16-07, 03:49 AM In Ebberon you can believe a duck is god and still be granted spells. You don't loose your spells because they are fueled by your belief and not your diety's power.
GothicDan
04-16-07, 02:27 PM Lets put it this way.
If they have to make a freaking template to apply to people that have had sex with a god, then you know something is wrong.

Ahem. I'm bored so I'm pulling out off my quiet lurking again. ;)

El engaged in sexual activities with Mystra (the first one, not the current one) after he was made her Chosen. On the other hand, Sammaster was a Chosen who was obsessed/ in love with her and didn't get to any base.

Mortals and deities having sexual relations? Impossible. (All of those Greek and Roman legends must be wrong. ;) )

Remember, Faerun is built to be an inherently polytheistic and pagan setting (despite AO's presence - and the Time of Troubles was idiotic and I ignore it), and in the myths and traditions of such settings, things like this happened. It may not make sense to our modern Western mindsets (unless you live in the Bible Belt), but it worked just fine thousands of years ago. I'm a physicist (almost) and atheist, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a truly fantastic (in the 'VERY fantasy' definition) setting versus a more empirical one like Eberron.

Now, I go back to lurking. Really wish I had money to pick up the ECS instead of just reading posts here.
Kensan_Oni
04-16-07, 04:30 PM Lets put it this way.
If they have to make a freaking template to apply to people that have had sex with a god, then you know something is wrong.

Umm.. Just a guess, but Half Elemental, half Celestial, and Half Feindish?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElberethSilverleaf 04-09-07, 09:31 PM	If a cleric of Corellon appears on Eberron with a group of Spelljammers or thru planers travel, does he lose access to his clerical spells? If so why?
Ricohard_Draconis 04-09-07, 10:42 PM	answer: depends on the dm advice: Most people would say yes since Corellon has no access to Eberron No, because he would never be able to get there since the Eberron crystal sphere is inpentetrable. yes, he simply taps into the same 'belief pool' as other clerics of an idea or concept, simply his concept has a name.
Teron Gorefiend 04-10-07, 02:59 AM	No, because he would never be able to get there since the Eberron crystal sphere is inpentetrable. More accurately, there isn't an Eberron crystal sphere. Eberron is a self-contained setting, no more related to the Forgotten Realms than Middle-Earth is to Bas-Lag.
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 07:40 AM	More accurately, there isn't an Eberron crystal sphere. Eberron is a self-contained setting, no more related to the Forgotten Realms than Middle-Earth is to Bas-Lag. Well, if you like spelljamer, there may be one - Dark Sun came afterm and yet spelljammer guys presented ideas on how is 'Athaspshere', like how Planescapers speculated on it's planes - and now on Eberron. Not officialy linked to GREYHAWK (I remind you that the basic setting is still Greyhawk).
Kid SixXx 04-10-07, 08:17 AM	If a cleric of Corellon appears on Eberron with a group of Spelljammers or thru planers travel, does he lose access to his clerical spells? If so why? No he doesn't lose his spells. The divine magic mechanic for Eberron is based on faith in concepts, not divine intervention from a specific god. If the cleric has faith that Corellon is a divine being, then the cleric will receive spells. Even with the mechanical argument that there is no Eberron "crystal sphere," the ever-present Plane of Shadow can still serve as a nexus from the Eberron cosmology to another.
polt 04-10-07, 11:43 AM	Even with the mechanical argument that there is no Eberron "crystal sphere," the ever-present Plane of Shadow can still serve as a nexus from the Eberron cosmology to another. Not in my game. No other universes than Eberron exist. I hate that Spelljammer stuff. It's not that you couldn't travel to Greyhawk, but Greyhawk doesn't exist.
Kid SixXx 04-10-07, 12:04 PM	Not in my game. No other universes than Eberron exist. I hate that Spelljammer stuff. It's not that you couldn't travel to Greyhawk, but Greyhawk doesn't exist. I don't use the Plane of Shadow as a bridging nexus either since I don't like mixing my settings, but apparently there are enough rabid supporters of settings featuring plane hopping in higher level (Planescape, FR) to warrant the Plane of Shadow safety valve. The FR had a pretty nice explanation in a later sourcebook as to why / how Greyhawk & the FR could cross-polinate.
Edymnion 04-10-07, 08:53 PM	No he doesn't lose his spells. The divine magic mechanic for Eberron is based on faith in concepts, not divine intervention from a specific god. If the cleric has faith that Corellon is a divine being, then the cleric will receive spells.Ah, but now there's the kink. Unlike in Eberron, it is a known FACT that the gods exist in other settings, because people have met them. The gods come down and chat it up with the mortals every now and again (unless you're in Faerun, then you're likely to find one at the pub at least once a week). Knowing that a god exists and that if you pray to them you will gain power isn't really faith, its knowledge. I'd say that cleric would be in for a rude surprise when he just routinely prays and asks for his spells that day, and nothing happens because he KNOWS he will get spells in exchange for prayer, there's no faith involved. Bit of soul searching and some demonstrations of genuine faith and he could start casting again, but I would definately put that speed bump in there so he knows something funny is going on.
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 09:25 PM	The gods rarely come on earth in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and the links. Berfore saying ridiculous things, get informated. The gods's presence is sure, but they don't get in the plate of the mortals like that just'because" - in general. Its like the myths of somes of our religions. And that do not destroy faith, too. The AThars are a perfect counterpoint - they don't deny there is something called the 'gods' - but tehy don't believe they are what they claims. False.
bbthereaper 04-10-07, 09:37 PM	Ah, but now there's the kink. Unlike in Eberron, it is a known FACT that the gods exist in other settings, because people have met them. The gods come down and chat it up with the mortals every now and again (unless you're in Faerun, then you're likely to find one at the pub at least once a week). Knowing that a god exists and that if you pray to them you will gain power isn't really faith, its knowledge. I'd say that cleric would be in for a rude surprise when he just routinely prays and asks for his spells that day, and nothing happens because he KNOWS he will get spells in exchange for prayer, there's no faith involved. Bit of soul searching and some demonstrations of genuine faith and he could start casting again, but I would definately put that speed bump in there so he knows something funny is going on. I think you're doing injustice to the clerics of other settings. Sure, in Faerun you know damn well that the gods are there (and trying to say there isn't is gonna end you up either a devil, a meal, or part of a wall), but just because you have certainty of their existence doesn't mean that they are any less devout than a cleric from Eberron. I'm sure that fighters in Faerun might make a prayer to Tempus before a battle, but that doesn't mean he's going to be casting divine favor anytime soon. Clerics from other settings have the same level of devotion to their deities, and just because they have confirmation doesn't mean that have any less faith. You can go up to Flamekeep and see the Silver Flame (or at least, a manifestation of it); the Sovereigns can be seen in so many cultures across the world that there's got to be something behind it; if you're an elf with the Right of Counsel feat, you can go up and talk to your gods. Most clerics in Eberron certainly think they have confirmation of the existence of the object of their worship, even if it's not understood by everyone.
Kid SixXx 04-11-07, 06:22 AM	The gods rarely come on earth in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and the links. Not sure about Greyhawk (perhaps that really bad Gord of Greyhawk novel or maybe the Age of Worms if that is considered to be GH canon), but in the FR the gods could pretty much walk to the corner store to buy a loaf of bread during the Time of Troubles. But yeah, the number of times the gods would willingly show up on the setting game world in question is arguably counted on one hand. That being said, I'd enforce the faith structure of the setting I'm dealing with. It's not like the cleric himself is keenly aware of the game mechanic that might prevent him from getting spells. If faith works for the Sovereign Host, then faith should work for Corellon.
hiryuu 04-11-07, 06:23 PM	Here's another thing: if the Eberronians got even the slightest idea that spelljamming is possible, expect massive mining operations on the ring of Syberis in months, the great elven navy to find itself curb-stomped within a year, and spelljamming "locks" that let the Eberronians into their own sphere but not anyone else (and expect them to find a way to use phlogiston as a massively destructive portable weapon). Anyway, deific existence is a pretty well knowable fact in those settings, even if the god never shows up. They've got obvious agents and when you drop a commune you get a phonecall direct from the big guy himself. Either way, the cleric would have to re-align himself with the source of magic: instead of being a recipient, he'd have to swap to a filter.
RogueElement 04-11-07, 06:32 PM	You could say that Corellon is a great hero to the elves (maybe to the Valenar if no one else) and has a clergy devoted to him (similar to the Blood of Vol and Lord of Blades). As Edy pointed out, in Eberron, clerics derive their power from their faith rather than from literal entities. So either way, your cleric will still be able to regain and cast spells in Eberron.
Loki5654 04-11-07, 06:46 PM	The gods rarely come on earth in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and the links. Berfore saying ridiculous things, get informated. The gods's presence is sure, but they don't get in the plate of the mortals like that just'because" - in general. Its like the myths of somes of our religions. And that do not destroy faith, too. The AThars are a perfect counterpoint - they don't deny there is something called the 'gods' - but tehy don't believe they are what they claims. False. There is porbably a decent argument in there somewhere, but your poor spelling and grammar completely undermined your point.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-11-07, 07:45 PM	> but in the FR the gods could pretty much walk to the corner store to buy a > loaf of bread during the Time of Troubles. > > But yeah, the number of times the gods would willingly show up on the setting > game world in question is arguably counted on one hand. The ToT is rather overblown as an example of how the FR normally works. It was an "end of an era" type of event, much like Dal Quor smacking into Eberron and bringing the age of the giants to an end. Neither happens on anything resembling a routine basis. Sure, the FR gods are more prone to meddling than the Host, but Vol, the Undying Court, and even the Silver Flame seem to meddle at least as much as the FR gods do (and they have more of a front row seat to the proceedings, too).
Edymnion 04-11-07, 08:41 PM	Lets put it this way. If they have to make a freaking template to apply to people that have had sex with a god, then you know something is wrong.
bbthereaper 04-11-07, 09:01 PM	...what? Er...are you referring to the chosen? I think Elminister is the only one that qualifies for that. That and perhaps the chosen of Sharess, but I digress.
Kid SixXx 04-11-07, 09:31 PM	There is porbably a decent argument in there somewhere, but your poor spelling and grammar completely undermined your point. Porbably?
Kid SixXx 04-11-07, 09:36 PM	Sure, the FR gods are more prone to meddling than the Host, but Vol, the Undying Court, and even the Silver Flame seem to meddle at least as much as the FR gods do (and they have more of a front row seat to the proceedings, too). Yes, but neither Vol nor the members of the Undying Court are considered to be divine beings. Vol is a lich: pretty much our own personal Larloch. The Undying Council is made up of deathless beings: revered but not exactly deities in their own right. Not even Silver Flame itself isn't even definitively divine, even though it certainly does have the distinct notoriety of having a physical manifestation, unlike the allegorical members of the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six. Routine or no, during the ToT gods walked the earth & their existance was beyond question. ...what? Er...are you referring to the chosen? I think Elminister is the only one that qualifies for that. That and perhaps the chosen of Sharess, but I digress. I sure as hell hope that Slarkrethel doesn't.
Marcus Majarra 04-13-07, 01:31 AM	Ah, but now there's the kink. Unlike in Eberron, it is a known FACT that the gods exist in other settings, because people have met them. The gods come down and chat it up with the mortals every now and again (unless you're in Faerun, then you're likely to find one at the pub at least once a week). Knowing that a god exists and that if you pray to them you will gain power isn't really faith, its knowledge. I'd say that cleric would be in for a rude surprise when he just routinely prays and asks for his spells that day, and nothing happens because he KNOWS he will get spells in exchange for prayer, there's no faith involved. Bit of soul searching and some demonstrations of genuine faith and he could start casting again, but I would definately put that speed bump in there so he knows something funny is going on. I find this entire argument to be silly for many reasons: 1) The Undying Court and the Silver Flame actually have a physical manifestation and can be routinely encountered by their faithful. The Aereni know that their faith has power because it keeps their most respected heroes deathless and this deathlessness, in turn, empowers their faithful. Flamic divine spellcasters can visit the main church at Flamekeep to witness the actual Silver Flame. 2) Eberron's divine spellcasting is based on the principle that faith empowers the spellcaster. Knowing that a god exists in no way undermines what faith its spellcasters can have in it. I doubt that any cleric of the Sovereign Host will consider the possibility that his god or pantheon does not exist. In his soul, he knows that both god and pantheon exist. He does not need to witness them to acknowledge it; his divine power is sufficient proof of the god's existence. 3) I highly doubt that every single divine spellcaster has a personal encounter with his or her deity in settings like the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Some may argue that the Time of Troubles in Faerun is a major counter-example here, but I do not think it to be. Look at Adon. Originally a cleric of Sune, he never encountered his goddess and felt betrayed by her. Despite abandoning her faith, he was very much a real cleric of her church prior to the Time of Troubles. The thing is: faith is based on certainty. And when something is certain, it becomes knowledge. Having faith in something means knowing it is true, regardless of proof. This said, I would see no reason to deny a cleric of Corellon stranded on Eberron his spells as long as his faith persists. It's extremely unlikely that anyone on Eberron will honestly recognize his power as that of Corellon Larethian; odds are it will be interpreted as a manifestation of a member of the Sovereign Host, depending on the cleric's choice of domains (if not generalized to a personification of the entire pantheon).
JulesCARV 04-13-07, 01:43 AM	It's uncertain that a cleric from Greyhawk of FR would be able to function in Eberron (or vice versa). It is also uncertain that a wizard, psion, or sorcerer from Greyhawk or FR would be able to function in Eberron (or vice versa). For example, wizards in Forgotten Realms apparently use something called "the weave" which Eberron and Greyhawk wizards don't use. Psions in Eberron typically channel forces from Xoriat or Dal Quor, which don't exist in FR or Greyhawk. I think that a fighter, rogue, or barbarian would surely be able to function interchangeably in all settings, but that's about it. It all depends on how transparent you want magic to be among settings. If you want, you could just say that a psion from Eberron who ends up in Toril somehow just loses all psionic abilities, because he can't access Dal Quor or Xoriat, or that a wizard from Toril who ends up on Eberron loses all magical abilities because he can't access the weave. You could say that a Cleric of Corellon loses all abilities in Eberron -- possibly because he doesn't have true faith in Corellon (although back on Toril Corellon gave him spells anyway), or possibly because all magic is different, and no mage, whether wizard, cleric, or psion, can function interchangeably in all campaign settings.
WolfHati 04-13-07, 02:09 AM	I don't think spellcasters should have any permanent ability loss travelling between settings, but I can see it as reasonable that they might have temporary spellcasting problems while adjusting to the way this new world works. Regardless of how different a new setting claims to be, the outcome of magic is similar in nature. It wouldn't take too long for a wizard to figure this out and make slight adjustments, or a cleric to have a crisis of faith and either realize true belief whatever that entails or forsake their god and perhaps embrace another. Sorcerers' powers come from themselves, so that's probably not too big an issue.
Ricohard_Draconis 04-13-07, 02:23 AM	I think the difference between FR and Eberron clerics effectively comes down to being very similar to Kierkagards belief in the 'leap to faith'.
TheAnthroDM 04-16-07, 03:49 AM	In Ebberon you can believe a duck is god and still be granted spells. You don't loose your spells because they are fueled by your belief and not your diety's power.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 02:27 PM	Lets put it this way. If they have to make a freaking template to apply to people that have had sex with a god, then you know something is wrong. Ahem. I'm bored so I'm pulling out off my quiet lurking again. ;) El engaged in sexual activities with Mystra (the first one, not the current one) after he was made her Chosen. On the other hand, Sammaster was a Chosen who was obsessed/ in love with her and didn't get to any base. Mortals and deities having sexual relations? Impossible. (All of those Greek and Roman legends must be wrong. ;) ) Remember, Faerun is built to be an inherently polytheistic and pagan setting (despite AO's presence - and the Time of Troubles was idiotic and I ignore it), and in the myths and traditions of such settings, things like this happened. It may not make sense to our modern Western mindsets (unless you live in the Bible Belt), but it worked just fine thousands of years ago. I'm a physicist (almost) and atheist, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a truly fantastic (in the 'VERY fantasy' definition) setting versus a more empirical one like Eberron. Now, I go back to lurking. Really wish I had money to pick up the ECS instead of just reading posts here.
Kensan_Oni 04-16-07, 04:30 PM	Lets put it this way. If they have to make a freaking template to apply to people that have had sex with a god, then you know something is wrong. Umm.. Just a guess, but Half Elemental, half Celestial, and Half Feindish?