Clerics, alignments, auras, etc: does clerical alignment override creature alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clerics, alignments, auras, etc: does clerical alignment override creature alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
02-07-06, 08:23 AM I realize that as clerics, clerics display the alignment of their God, not their own alignment. Is their own alignment still detectable, though?

Let's say that we have a good-aligned level 5 cleric of The Mockery (just because the "evil cleric of the Silver Flame" bit is sooo cliché). If you cast Detect Evil on our misguided cleric, you get a strong aura of evil, right? But in addition to being a level 5 cleric, he's a 5 HD creature. Now, what if you cast Detect Good on him, though? As a good creature with 5 HD, would you also detect a faint aura of good, since, in addition to being a cleric of an evil deity, he's also a creature? Or does the Aura of Evil from being a cleric of an evil religion totally override his good aura as a good creature?

I normally would assume the latter, but this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040705a) caught my eye:

"Sadrian scowled as he watched the archierophant conduct the Ritual of Cleansing. He could sense the darkness in her soul; like so many of the priests in Sharn, she was filled with ambition and greed. But the Council of Cardinals had invested Ythana Morr with her position, and he had seen her perform miracles with the power of the Flame; it was not the place of a lowly Templar to challenge her faith."

It seems clear, from a game mechanics standpoint, that what's happening here is that Sadrian the paladin has detected evil on Ythana Morr the evil cleric. As a cleric of the Silver Flame, though, her aura should be Lawful Good. So does that mean she has relatively strong auras of good and law from her being a cleric, but also a relatively weak aura of evil, from her being an evil creature? Or am I completely misunderstand the situation, and Sadrian was just using some more mundane intuition about her character (such sense motive, from a mechanical PoV) to get the sense that she was greedy and corrupt?
Euangelion
02-07-06, 10:08 AM This really isn't an Eberron issue, since the same question could be asked of a LN cleric of Heironeus, do they ping on detect good, even though they're not good in and of themselves? Yep.
Thus they way I intepret it is that the NPC in question will register as slightly evil (due to her personal alignment) and strongly lawful and good due to her aura. The issue with her though is that it may be better not to make her a cleric of the Silver Flame at all, since rumors of her activities would seem to indicate that she has knowingly turned her back on everything that the CotSF stands for, as opposed to just being a jerk.
Grymar
02-07-06, 10:09 AM I realize that as clerics, clerics display the alignment of their God, not their own alignment. Is their own alignment still detectable, though?

Let's say that we have a good-aligned level 5 cleric of The Mockery (just because the "evil cleric of the Silver Flame" bit is sooo cliché). If you cast Detect Evil on our misguided cleric, you get a strong aura of evil, right? But in addition to being a level 5 cleric, he's a 5 HD creature. Now, what if you cast Detect Good on him, though? As a good creature with 5 HD, would you also detect a faint aura of good, since, in addition to being a cleric of an evil deity, he's also a creature? Or does the Aura of Evil from being a cleric of an evil religion totally override his good aura as a good creature?

I normally would assume the latter, but this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040705a) caught my eye:

"Sadrian scowled as he watched the archierophant conduct the Ritual of Cleansing. He could sense the darkness in her soul; like so many of the priests in Sharn, she was filled with ambition and greed. But the Council of Cardinals had invested Ythana Morr with her position, and he had seen her perform miracles with the power of the Flame; it was not the place of a lowly Templar to challenge her faith."

It seems clear, from a game mechanics standpoint, that what's happening here is that Sadrian the paladin has detected evil on Ythana Morr the evil cleric. As a cleric of the Silver Flame, though, her aura should be Lawful Good. So does that mean she has relatively strong auras of good and law from her being a cleric, but also a relatively weak aura of evil, from her being an evil creature? Or am I completely misunderstand the situation, and Sadrian was just using some more mundane intuition about her character (such sense motive, from a mechanical PoV) to get the sense that she was greedy and corrupt?

That's the way I see it. I acutally have the detect spells show all auras, not just Evil, Good, Law, etc. So he probably sees within the LG aura a faint corruption, a darkness within the light.
Just another user
02-07-06, 10:24 AM By the RAW the cleric would have two distinct auras(sp).
IIRC a home rules suggested by Keith was to let the religion alignement override the "natural" alignement and use it for everything (detect spell, use of special magic item (holy avengers and C.), class abilities like spontaneous healing/inflict or turn/rebuke, etc)
DarkWarriorKarg
02-07-06, 11:34 AM By the RAW the cleric would have two distinct auras(sp).

The RAW answer is correct.

In the example above, the cleric of the Mockery would have a stong aura of evil and a slight aura of good. IMO, this means both the best and worst of two worlds.

The cleric can wield evil-aligned weapons (let's say an Unholy Mace) because he is evil.

But, he can pick up a Holy mace without problems as well.

Such a character would drive a paladin nuts.

"I sense great evil, but he wields the Holy Mace of Smitefulness without a problem. Yet it should reject him as unpure!"

This should be a rareity, of course.
Euangelion
02-07-06, 12:49 PM Keep in mind as well that according to the ECS alignment restrictions on domains still apply. Again, though, this is something that Keith has expressed a counter-opinion on, expressing a personal opinion that a LE cleric of the SF could indeed take the Good domain. This raises the issue as to whether or not a LE cleric with the Good domain could Holy Smite themselves to death. Some said no, because of the aura. Personally I say yes, since those with unpure souls ought to worry about meddling with the power of the holy. Anyway you go with it, just make it fun.
Hellcow
02-07-06, 01:51 PM The Dragonshard is written to follow the RAW, under which the cleric should have two different auras. However, I feel the issue is that allowing clerics to be more that one alignment step away from the deity opens a host of mechanical issues that were not fully addressed. As a result, and this is ENTIRELY unofficial, my house rule is to determine the character's strongest alignment aura and to use that for ALL purposes of magic.

For example...
A 5th-level LE priest of the Silver Flame possesses two auras. As a 5 HD evil creature, he has a faint aura of evil. As a 5th level cleric of a good deity, he has a strong aura of good. Strong beats faint, so he detects as good, suffers when he's targeted with unholy blight or struck with an unholy weapon, and does not suffer any ill effects from holy word or a holy weapon. His dedicated service to a good god outweighs his darker side.
By contrast, an evil 10th-level fighter/1st-level cleric of the Flame has a moderate evil aura (11 HD evil creature) and faint good aura (1st level priest). He shows up as evil, gets hurt by holy effects, and so on.

Likewise, I also use the alignment of the religion to determine interaction with undead, not the alignment of the cleric. The Silver Flame is a positive force and its priests are supposed to use its power to heal the innocent and destroy foul creatures. The priests of the Blood of Vol respect the undead. The ability to interact with undead, one way or the other, is a gift of the religion: as a cleric of the Flame, it is a weapon for you to use, while as a priest of the Blood of Vol, it's the ability to command respect. Regardless of your personal alignment, if you're a true servant of your faith, you should affect undead as per your faith.

However, again, both of these are unofficial house rules that contradict the RAW. If you're a DM and like 'em, good for you - but they are as far from canon as can be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 02-07-06, 08:23 AM	I realize that as clerics, clerics display the alignment of their God, not their own alignment. Is their own alignment still detectable, though? Let's say that we have a good-aligned level 5 cleric of The Mockery (just because the "evil cleric of the Silver Flame" bit is sooo cliché). If you cast Detect Evil on our misguided cleric, you get a strong aura of evil, right? But in addition to being a level 5 cleric, he's a 5 HD creature. Now, what if you cast Detect Good on him, though? As a good creature with 5 HD, would you also detect a faint aura of good, since, in addition to being a cleric of an evil deity, he's also a creature? Or does the Aura of Evil from being a cleric of an evil religion totally override his good aura as a good creature? I normally would assume the latter, but this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040705a) caught my eye: "Sadrian scowled as he watched the archierophant conduct the Ritual of Cleansing. He could sense the darkness in her soul; like so many of the priests in Sharn, she was filled with ambition and greed. But the Council of Cardinals had invested Ythana Morr with her position, and he had seen her perform miracles with the power of the Flame; it was not the place of a lowly Templar to challenge her faith." It seems clear, from a game mechanics standpoint, that what's happening here is that Sadrian the paladin has detected evil on Ythana Morr the evil cleric. As a cleric of the Silver Flame, though, her aura should be Lawful Good. So does that mean she has relatively strong auras of good and law from her being a cleric, but also a relatively weak aura of evil, from her being an evil creature? Or am I completely misunderstand the situation, and Sadrian was just using some more mundane intuition about her character (such sense motive, from a mechanical PoV) to get the sense that she was greedy and corrupt?
Euangelion 02-07-06, 10:08 AM	This really isn't an Eberron issue, since the same question could be asked of a LN cleric of Heironeus, do they ping on detect good, even though they're not good in and of themselves? Yep. Thus they way I intepret it is that the NPC in question will register as slightly evil (due to her personal alignment) and strongly lawful and good due to her aura. The issue with her though is that it may be better not to make her a cleric of the Silver Flame at all, since rumors of her activities would seem to indicate that she has knowingly turned her back on everything that the CotSF stands for, as opposed to just being a jerk.
Grymar 02-07-06, 10:09 AM	I realize that as clerics, clerics display the alignment of their God, not their own alignment. Is their own alignment still detectable, though? Let's say that we have a good-aligned level 5 cleric of The Mockery (just because the "evil cleric of the Silver Flame" bit is sooo cliché). If you cast Detect Evil on our misguided cleric, you get a strong aura of evil, right? But in addition to being a level 5 cleric, he's a 5 HD creature. Now, what if you cast Detect Good on him, though? As a good creature with 5 HD, would you also detect a faint aura of good, since, in addition to being a cleric of an evil deity, he's also a creature? Or does the Aura of Evil from being a cleric of an evil religion totally override his good aura as a good creature? I normally would assume the latter, but this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040705a) caught my eye: "Sadrian scowled as he watched the archierophant conduct the Ritual of Cleansing. He could sense the darkness in her soul; like so many of the priests in Sharn, she was filled with ambition and greed. But the Council of Cardinals had invested Ythana Morr with her position, and he had seen her perform miracles with the power of the Flame; it was not the place of a lowly Templar to challenge her faith." It seems clear, from a game mechanics standpoint, that what's happening here is that Sadrian the paladin has detected evil on Ythana Morr the evil cleric. As a cleric of the Silver Flame, though, her aura should be Lawful Good. So does that mean she has relatively strong auras of good and law from her being a cleric, but also a relatively weak aura of evil, from her being an evil creature? Or am I completely misunderstand the situation, and Sadrian was just using some more mundane intuition about her character (such sense motive, from a mechanical PoV) to get the sense that she was greedy and corrupt? That's the way I see it. I acutally have the detect spells show all auras, not just Evil, Good, Law, etc. So he probably sees within the LG aura a faint corruption, a darkness within the light.
Just another user 02-07-06, 10:24 AM	By the RAW the cleric would have two distinct auras(sp). IIRC a home rules suggested by Keith was to let the religion alignement override the "natural" alignement and use it for everything (detect spell, use of special magic item (holy avengers and C.), class abilities like spontaneous healing/inflict or turn/rebuke, etc)
DarkWarriorKarg 02-07-06, 11:34 AM	By the RAW the cleric would have two distinct auras(sp). The RAW answer is correct. In the example above, the cleric of the Mockery would have a stong aura of evil and a slight aura of good. IMO, this means both the best and worst of two worlds. The cleric can wield evil-aligned weapons (let's say an Unholy Mace) because he is evil. But, he can pick up a Holy mace without problems as well. Such a character would drive a paladin nuts. "I sense great evil, but he wields the Holy Mace of Smitefulness without a problem. Yet it should reject him as unpure!" This should be a rareity, of course.
Euangelion 02-07-06, 12:49 PM	Keep in mind as well that according to the ECS alignment restrictions on domains still apply. Again, though, this is something that Keith has expressed a counter-opinion on, expressing a personal opinion that a LE cleric of the SF could indeed take the Good domain. This raises the issue as to whether or not a LE cleric with the Good domain could Holy Smite themselves to death. Some said no, because of the aura. Personally I say yes, since those with unpure souls ought to worry about meddling with the power of the holy. Anyway you go with it, just make it fun.
Hellcow 02-07-06, 01:51 PM	The Dragonshard is written to follow the RAW, under which the cleric should have two different auras. However, I feel the issue is that allowing clerics to be more that one alignment step away from the deity opens a host of mechanical issues that were not fully addressed. As a result, and this is ENTIRELY unofficial, my house rule is to determine the character's strongest alignment aura and to use that for ALL purposes of magic. For example... A 5th-level LE priest of the Silver Flame possesses two auras. As a 5 HD evil creature, he has a faint aura of evil. As a 5th level cleric of a good deity, he has a strong aura of good. Strong beats faint, so he detects as good, suffers when he's targeted with unholy blight or struck with an unholy weapon, and does not suffer any ill effects from holy word or a holy weapon. His dedicated service to a good god outweighs his darker side. By contrast, an evil 10th-level fighter/1st-level cleric of the Flame has a moderate evil aura (11 HD evil creature) and faint good aura (1st level priest). He shows up as evil, gets hurt by holy effects, and so on. Likewise, I also use the alignment of the religion to determine interaction with undead, not the alignment of the cleric. The Silver Flame is a positive force and its priests are supposed to use its power to heal the innocent and destroy foul creatures. The priests of the Blood of Vol respect the undead. The ability to interact with undead, one way or the other, is a gift of the religion: as a cleric of the Flame, it is a weapon for you to use, while as a priest of the Blood of Vol, it's the ability to command respect. Regardless of your personal alignment, if you're a true servant of your faith, you should affect undead as per your faith. However, again, both of these are unofficial house rules that contradict the RAW. If you're a DM and like 'em, good for you - but they are as far from canon as can be.