Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AkumaDaimyo 06-14-07, 09:38 PM	I'm just wondering what races are protected under the code of Galifar? I know monstrous humanoids are not. What about subraces? Like would drow, duergar, sniverneblin be protected? What about planetouched? I belive I read something somewhere that said planetouched were protected but not sure where I saw it.
Shady314 06-14-07, 10:03 PM	I'm just wondering what races are protected under the code of Galifar? I know monstrous humanoids are not. What about subraces? Like would drow, duergar, sniverneblin be protected? What about planetouched? I belive I read something somewhere that said planetouched were protected but not sure where I saw it. Monstrous humanoids are protected. Goblins, ogres, minotaurs etc. may be treated as second class or feared but so long as they are actually citizens of one of the 5N they have rights. I think it's easiest to just say most sentient creatures are protected. The exceptions are those deemed unnatural such as undead and aberrations. Fiends like the rakshasas.
AkumaDaimyo 06-14-07, 11:44 PM	Hmm it says citizens of all the 12 nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold and all members of Dragonmarked houses. But Drooam and Shadowmarchers are exempt unless working for house Tharashk. So a minotaur for example is protected by the laws of Galifar if he was born in Sharn? Doesn't sound right. I don't think a lot of monsters could just go walking down the street in most places out of Sharn and not get killed on sight.
Shady314 06-15-07, 12:33 AM	Hmm it says citizens of all the 12 nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold and all members of Dragonmarked houses. But Drooam and Shadowmarchers are exempt unless working for house Tharashk. So a minotaur for example is protected by the laws of Galifar if he was born in Sharn? Doesn't sound right. I don't think a lot of monsters could just go walking down the street in most places out of Sharn and not get killed on sight. If the minotaur was behaving himself I don't think anyone's gonna pick a fight. :) And forget the minotaur. A goblin? A kobold? etc. You think the villagers get up in arms with torches and pitchforks because of some monsters? This is Eberron. Monsters have their own societys and even civilizations. People have lived their whole lives seeing the effects of arcane magics and hearing about (if not interacting) with what to us would be completely fantastical races. Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes etc. And the Treaty of Thronehold has nothing to do with the Code of Galifar. Out of Sharn and other metropolises it may be very uncommon to see the more monstrous races but the laws don't change just because you're in a village or hamlet. The born in Sharn raises an interesting point on citizenship in the 5N. It's a pretty recent idea of citizenship based on place of birth rather than blood. I wonder how it worked under Galifar.
Syltorian 06-15-07, 06:55 AM	Monstrous humanoids are protected. Goblins, ogres, minotaurs etc. may be treated as second class or feared but so long as they are actually citizens of one of the 5N they have rights. I think it's easiest to just say most sentient creatures are protected. The exceptions are those deemed unnatural such as undead and aberrations. Fiends like the rakshasas. This is, as far as I know, absolutely correct. Race or type does not matter here, even if in practice they will be looked down on and start with a disfavourable impression in actual trials and other situations. There won't be many minotaurs, harpies, ogres and the like who will have aquired citizenship of one of the Thronehold nations, and we do not know whether simply being born in a nation is enough, or whether there is a complex procedure to give you citizenship as a sort of privilege. As Shady says, citizenship by place of birth is a fairly recent idea. It's still not quite that easy in most European countries, for example. You may need to be registered somewhere, but that is speculation; this might cause problems for nations without a proper bureaucracy, such as the Reaches. Governments may also refuse to agknowledge some creatures living within their borders as citizens: the Mror Holds might refuse this to the orcs living there. But all this is pure speculation. I believe I have read somewhere though, or may heard it on the boards from Hellcow, that in Valenar, only elves are protected. I cannot remember where I found this, unfortunately, so I cannot give a quote. The Eldeen Reaches do not follow the Code of Galifar, and neither does Karrnath, who still have martial law. Thrane has added some religious tenets. As for drow and duergar? They probably would not be protected. Not because of their race, but because drow tend to live in the jungles of Xen'drik, which no nation has tried to properly claim as its own, so they are not citizens of any of them. As for Duergar, they tend to live in Sarlona, which again is not part of any of the Thronehold signatories. Out of Sharn and other metropolises it may be very uncommon to see the more monstrous races but the laws don't change just because you're in a village or hamlet. That's true as well. Besides, how many people in a hamlet are really suicidal enough to to try and kill a minotaur wandering down their street?
Nived 06-15-07, 12:42 PM	Lets be cynical here. Anyone who pays their taxes.
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 03:13 PM	Drow and Duergar would most likely NOT be protected as they are not citizens of the 12 nations of Khorvaire. Unless one could prove he or she somehow was. See that's where I'm getting confused. So a troll or minotaur or something like that is fine if he or she can somehow prove they are a citizen? I kinda don't see that happening. You'd have to have papers or something and a monstrous humanoid ins't very likely to get those. However you can sign up with house Tharashk and your safe. I was mostly trying to figure out if something like a Assimar or Tiefling would be protected. They ARE part human after all and could come from virtually any background.
Nived 06-15-07, 04:54 PM	An excellent point. If they can prove they're a citizen then they are fine. Basically it all comes down to being able to respond to "Let me see your identification." If you don't have your ID papers, you're in a world of hurt, then again this is true in the real world too. Also there is no reason that orcs, goblins, minotaur, orge, Gargoyles, and the like living in someplace like Sharn wouldn't have ID papers, its a normal aspect of life. Monsters may get 'hassled' especially in certain parts of the city, but it'd be illegal to just attack them with no reason. In Sharn I think human from Karrnath with no ID would illicit more suspicion than a orge from the lower districts with proper ID papers and a steady job.
Shady314 06-15-07, 06:47 PM	Lets be cynical here. Anyone who pays their taxes. I like it! :D
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 10:10 PM	An excellent point. If they can prove they're a citizen then they are fine. Basically it all comes down to being able to respond to "Let me see your identification." If you don't have your ID papers, you're in a world of hurt, then again this is true in the real world too. Also there is no reason that orcs, goblins, minotaur, orge, Gargoyles, and the like living in someplace like Sharn wouldn't have ID papers, its a normal aspect of life. Monsters may get 'hassled' especially in certain parts of the city, but it'd be illegal to just attack them with no reason. In Sharn I think human from Karrnath with no ID would illicit more suspicion than a orge from the lower districts with proper ID papers and a steady job. There is a reason. They live in squalor and ghetto like areas in Sharn. How in the world are they going to afford papers? Also do you really think they will be let into a better area to get those papers even if they had the money and lastly do you think most people are going to give papers to a monster? They may not be killed on sight but that doesn't mean most people like or trust them. I think it's a question for Keith Baker.
Shady314 06-15-07, 10:36 PM	There is a reason. They live in squalor and ghetto like areas in Sharn. Poor people aren't citizens now? How in the world are they going to afford papers? They're not that expensive. The fancy ones with pictures and stuff the rich people have are pricy. Some simple ones are no more than the price of some paper and a stamp. Not to be confused with traveling papers which are kind of equivalent to passports and pricier. Also do you really think they will be let into a better area to get those papers even if they had the money Um yes. I don't remember reading in S:CoT that only certain races are allowed in certain sections of the city. Or that there are guards and checkpoints at every entrance into every area of Sharn. and lastly do you think most people are going to give papers to a monster? What makes them a monster? They're ugly? I think dwarves are ugly but that doesn't make them a monster. A zombie is a monster. It's mindless and kills people and is an affront to life. A vampire is a monster it has to feed on our blood to survive. An ogre? He's just a big dumb smelly guy. Doesn't make him "inhuman" anymore than elves, or dwarves etc. are. They can talk to you, they follow the laws, where's this homicidal mania towards them coming from? Try to think of it like you've spent your whole life living among sentient creatures that are not human as most Khorvairians have. They may not be killed on sight but that doesn't mean most people like or trust them. I think for sure there's prejudice towards them. Just like changelings or even Shifters some places. But that doesn't mean they have NO rights at all and a human can kill one in front of the Watch and then just mosey on home. Racism and Speciesism is not a definining characteristic of the inhabitants of Khorvaire. Nationalism is. Most people I think would prefer a hard working goblin of Breland that believes in the ideals of Breland over some snooty Aundairian monarchist or Thrane fanatic etc. I think it's a question for Keith Baker. Worth a shot.
Edymnion 06-15-07, 10:45 PM	How in the world are they going to afford papers?They're 2 gold. That isn't out of *ANYONES* price range. Also do you really think they will be let into a better area to get those papers even if they had the money and lastly do you think most people are going to give papers to a monster?Yes, they will. This is Eberron, not the Forgotten Realms. You're not shot on sight just because you're an orc.They may not be killed on sight but that doesn't mean most people like or trust them.I could say the same thing about democrats/republicans/blacks/whites/latinos/asians/purple people eaters, but that doesn't mean all democrats/republicans/blacks/whites/latinos/asians/purple people eaters should be denied citizenship. Bottom line, if the race is sentient, living in one of the five nations, paying their taxes, and just trying to get by, they have every bit as much right to protection as the humans and elves do. Monstrous races may be looked at as oddities, but nobody is going to throw a panic attack and organize a mob with torches and pitchforks just because a minotaur walked into town.
Nived 06-15-07, 10:46 PM	ID papers cost exactly the same as... a dagger. I think as a one time expense is easily within the cost of even the slums of Sharn. Why wouldn't house Sivis do business with them? Their gold is the same as everyone elses. A House Sivis station in Lower Durra in Sharn wouldn't be the place you'd find a up and coming house heir... it would probably be run down and have bars over the windows but it'd be open. It'd be like post offices, DMVs and Western Unions in the slums and bad areas of major cities in real life. Granted there are those without ID in real life, and you know what? They do get walked over, and if they have an accent? They're likely to be deported Kinda makes ID an important thing to have. EDIT To expound my point I pulled out Sharn: City of Towers, and I just saw a piece of art I forgot about. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sharn_gallery/84563.jpg Look at this picture, see the goblin and the ogre? See how no one cares? Now look around... does this look like a slum? Look at the lighting, and the shadows... why that looks like daylight! In Sharn that have to mean bare minimum the middle districts if not the upper wards... and no one cares. The Watch isn't swooping in to arrest them for being there... Because they're citizens and this is a public place. As long as they're not loitering or causing a disturbance they're left alone.
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 10:52 PM	Poor people aren't citizens now? They're not that expensive. The fancy ones with pictures and stuff the rich people have are pricy. Some simple ones are no more than the price of some paper and a stamp. Not to be confused with traveling papers which are kind of equivalent to passports and pricier. Um yes. I don't remember reading in S:CoT that only certain races are allowed in certain sections of the city. Or that there are guards and checkpoints at every entrance into every area of Sharn. What makes them a monster? They're ugly? I think dwarves are ugly but that doesn't make them a monster. A zombie is a monster. It's mindless and kills people and is an affront to life. A vampire is a monster it has to feed on our blood to survive. An ogre? He's just a big dumb smelly guy. Doesn't make him "inhuman" anymore than elves, or dwarves etc. are. They can talk to you, they follow the laws, where's this homicidal mania towards them coming from? Try to think of it like you've spent your whole life living among sentient creatures that are not human as most Khorvairians have. I think for sure there's prejudice towards them. Just like changelings or even Shifters some places. But that doesn't mean they have NO rights at all and a human can kill one in front of the Watch and then just mosey on home. Racism and Speciesism is not a definining characteristic of the inhabitants of Khorvaire. Nationalism is. Most people I think would prefer a hard working goblin of Breland that believes in the ideals of Breland over some snooty Aundairian monarchist or Thrane fanatic etc. They aren't citizen's if they can't prove it because they cant afford papers. And actually yes they ARE that expensive. Pay attention to the part about how much gold most people ever see in their lifetimes who are not rich or adventurers; barely any. Gold does not fall from the sky for everyone in a D&D world. I totally disagree that monsters would be allowed into certain areas. You need to read the Sharn:City of Towers book more closely. A lot of gaurds are corrupt and don't give a damn about monsters at all. They mostly protect the rich and influential and keep the peace of the more well to do citizen's and the peace won't exactly be kept with monsters roaming about will it? You are NOT going to see some totally obvious monster running around in a place like Skytower. Where's the homocidal mania coming from? Maybe the monster manual entires where it says most Orges are evil? Most Monsters's are usually evil, that's about more than 50% of the race, or some are always evil. Or in a more RP manner, try Drooam. I don't really think most people are going to trust Ogres or other monsters. To reinforce my point, how many monsters are working in ANY highclass joints that are openly monsters? Monsters might get work but the type of work and pay are likely to be the kind of work a known illegal immigrant gets. Backbreaking and with little pay. Actually, you can indeed kill a monster in front of the Watch. Even pretty much says so about it that they would care about a rich citizen getting mugged or killed but poor monsters or even poor people? The Watch doesn't give a damn. I'm really thinking this protection really only extends to the PHB races and other common races of Eberron, and even then only if your not dirt poor living in the "ghetto" like areas of Sharn.
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 10:58 PM	They're 2 gold. That isn't out of *ANYONES* price range. Yes, they will. This is Eberron, not the Forgotten Realms. You're not shot on sight just because you're an orc. I could say the same thing about democrats/republicans/blacks/whites/latinos/asians/purple people eaters, but that doesn't mean all democrats/republicans/blacks/whites/latinos/asians/purple people eaters should be denied citizenship. Bottom line, if the race is sentient, living in one of the five nations, paying their taxes, and just trying to get by, they have every bit as much right to protection as the humans and elves do. Monstrous races may be looked at as oddities, but nobody is going to throw a panic attack and organize a mob with torches and pitchforks just because a minotaur walked into town. 2 gold can however set you back. Where are you getting this idea that a totally poor ass person can get 2 gold? Does anyone even read the economy sections of the Eberron books? No, they won't get in to most places, unless your working with Tharask you aint getting into rich, upper class places and even then unless your rich and influential yourself I don't see it. Your comparission is totally wrong. The things you mentioned are people. People who don't like each other will more than likely band together against the monster. If monsters are supposedly SOOOO accepted then how come they all live in places like the Cogs? How come none of them whatsoever get to live in nice areas? Why doesn't the Watch actively protect them? Because no one gives a crap about monsters. (And for very obvious reasons, Dopplegangers do NOT count. ) RIGHT to protection and actually getting it are TWO entirely different things. You mentioned blacks? They had a right to protection in the 50's and before but try getting it. If you actually read the Sharn: City of Towers book in full detail you'll see just how little if no protection monsterous citizens get. They kill each other all the time and no Watch really goes into those areas of town.
Nived 06-15-07, 11:03 PM	Looking at the Sharn book again I see that when dealing with the law Goblinoids only suffer a -1 penelty on diplomacy and bluff checks. Same as Half Orcs and Shifters. Monsterous Humanoids suffer a -4... which is the EXACT SAME as a "Non-Citizen of Breland". This supports my earlier claim. Where your from is (usually) more important than what you are. So an Ogre born and raised in Sharn who lives in Lower Dura would suffer -8 to his diplo and bluff checks with the watch. -4 for being Monterous Humanoid, -4 for being from the lower districts. A changling wearing traveler's clothing from Aundair would suffer THE SAME PENELTY, -2 for changling, -2 for traveler's clothing, -4 for not being from Breland. They'll get hassled, sure, but this doesn't mean they'll just be arrested or attack for existing.
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 11:12 PM	Looking at the Sharn book again I see that when dealing with the law Goblinoids only suffer a -1 penelty on diplomacy and bluff checks. Same as Half Orcs and Shifters. Monsterous Humanoids suffer a -4... which is the EXACT SAME as a "Non-Citizen of Breland". This supports my earlier claim. Where your from is (usually) more important than what you are. Try looking more at the fluff and not the crunch. Your -1 penalty in no way really reflects the Roleplay attitudes of the gaurds. Your also assuming the guards would start at indifferent or helpfull. In just about every single area with monsters in it the area is poor, seedy and crime infested. And guess what? The gaurds don't really care about that area. The -4 also does NOT support your claim. It shoots it dead in the face because you were saying Monterous humanoids were citizens. If they are citizens then why is their penalty the same as a non-citizen? By your points if monsterous humanoids are so accepted why do they have a whopping -4? Not to mention most Monsterous humanoids have low CHA scores so that -4 only makes the problem worse, thus assuring a negative reaction from the Watch. My point stands. Dude, a -8 on your roll just about ensures the reaction your going to get is gonna be pretty bad if not outright hostile. That means at most your going to get a 12 as your typical monsterous humanoid with NO class levels. On top of that take into effect the average number rolled on a d20. Hostile reactions from the Watch are almost assured.
Nived 06-15-07, 11:18 PM	Ok lets look at the fluff then. Sharn: City of Towers pg 176 Most humanoids of the of the humanoid type can move about unmolested in Sharn. The laws protect the liberties of humanoids-even orcs and drow- as long as they do not engage in criminal activities. This includes a few creatures that are not humanoids, but fall into the same catagory, such as the planetouched races and outsiders. Monster Manual: bugbear, dwarf, elf, gnoll, gnome, goblin, halfling, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, locathah, merfolk, orc, plantouched (all), sahuagin, troglodyte. Monster Manual II: Planetouched (All) Monster Manual III: flind (gnoll), kenku, phoelarch, warforged scout. Fiend Folio: feytouched, planetouched (all) Eberron Campaign Setting: changling, inspired (all), kalashtar, shifter, warforged. Oh look at that can move around unmolested. Fancy that.
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 11:22 PM	Try reading the WHOLE book instead of a page. :rolleyes: Just try getting into a upper class area. Try it. Please. Also try actually reading the novels by Keith Baker. I seem to recall a goblin getting picked on by one of the guards. Yet she only had a -1 to her interaction roll. "Fancy that". Maybe it's cause while they are entitled to rights they rarely if ever get them?
Nived 06-16-07, 01:17 AM	She was also a known pickpocket. Which part of "So long as they refrain from engaging in illegal activity" was unclear? If a goblin was so out of place on the lifts why would she, a pickpocket EVER bother to try to get on one if she would automatically be arrested for it?
Shady314 06-16-07, 01:42 AM	They aren't citizen's if they can't prove it because they cant afford papers. And actually yes they ARE that expensive. Pay attention to the part about how much gold most people ever see in their lifetimes who are not rich or adventurers; barely any. Gold does not fall from the sky for everyone in a D&D world. It's two gold. Edymnion is one of the best people to explain how two gold is not some insane amount. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=719384 What commoners don't usually see is gold all at once. But they save up. I will grant you the ECS says it's usually the middle class or higher that carries ID papers at all times. That doesn't mean the lower classes are forbidden from having any it just means it's not as common. I totally disagree that monsters would be allowed into certain areas. You need to read the Sharn:City of Towers book more closely. A lot of gaurds are corrupt and don't give a damn about monsters at all. They mostly protect the rich and influential and keep the peace of the more well to do citizen's and the peace won't exactly be kept with monsters roaming about will it? You are NOT going to see some totally obvious monster running around in a place like Skytower. Yeah :rolleyes: To quote you "Go read your S:CoT more closely." Look at Nived's pictrure of what a bustling city should look like. Look at the thousands of years Khorvaire has of being home to a multitude of intelligent races. And the apparent lack of racism and sexism. Why would speciesism be so common? Nationalism is the driving force of Khorvaire not species. Where's the homocidal mania coming from? Maybe the monster manual entires where it says most Orges are evil? Most Monsters's are usually evil, that's about more than 50% of the race, or some are always evil. :rofl: This from the guy who says go read the books more closely! Go read your ECS. Alignment rules no longer apply. (Except to outsiders) And really your argument is alignment? What about the evil humans and others! Even if you're wildly optimistic at least 1/4 are probably evil! This is the world where alignment just doesn't mean much. Or in a more RP manner, try Drooam. Uh you mean the nation of monsters with a fully functioning society? What about them? If they live in Droaam clearly they aren't residents/citizens of the 5N. And this is just where the nationalism comes in. People hate Droaam. Not because it's full of monsters though that's scary because most are big and can be very dangerous but because it's run by 3 legendary evil hags and it's seen as a threat to the nation. I don't really think most people are going to trust Ogres or other monsters. I already accepted a long time ago there is definitely prejudice against them. It's so annoying when posters can't stay on point. This started off as "who could be citizens and protected by the code." Now you've decided to instead argue whether monstrous races are treated completely fairly. They aren't. That's a different discussion. One we can have if you'd like but please try to stay focused. To reinforce my point, how many monsters are working in ANY highclass joints that are openly monsters? Monsters might get work but the type of work and pay are likely to be the kind of work a known illegal immigrant gets. Backbreaking and with little pay. You mean most ogres will probably do menial labor instead of writing a thesis! NO! Shocking! I had no idea that because someone was dumb and had a poor job they had no rights whatsoever and you could just kill them for fun with no legal repercussions. :rolleyes: Hey do me a favor and look at page 120 of S:CoT. See anything interesting there... Actually, you can indeed kill a monster in front of the Watch. :rolleyes: Page number please. Even pretty much says so about it that they would care about a rich citizen getting mugged or killed but poor monsters or even poor people? The Watch doesn't give a damn. Hmmmmm so according to you the watch doesn't care about poor PEOPLE. As in any poor person no matter the species. I think that's somewhat accurate. I never got the vibe from S:CoT the entire watch was utterly corrupt and incompetent though. You commit a crime right in front of their face they're going to care. Maybe they won't care if you slip them some coin but that's just a different kind of care. I'm really thinking this protection really only extends to the PHB races and other common races of Eberron, and even then only if your not dirt poor living in the "ghetto" like areas of Sharn. You'd be incorrect. Go ahead and ask Keith. The law protects any citizen. You can argue the implementation isn't 100% fair and even. I'll agree with you on that. But that wasn't what you asked.
Shady314 06-16-07, 01:56 AM	2 gold can however set you back. Where are you getting this idea that a totally poor ass person can get 2 gold? Does anyone even read the economy sections of the Eberron books? Yeah 2 gold sets you back. You know what else sets you back? Everything that costs money! :rolleyes: My car set me back a LOT. My new TV and X-box 360? Whew! And those are both luxury items whereas something like a car or ID papers is a necessity. What's the point? That someone has to save up and spend time before they can become a citizen with ID? Um that actually makes sense. No, they won't get in to most places, unless your working with Tharask you aint getting into rich, upper class places and even then unless your rich and influential yourself I don't see it. Uh you ain't getting into rich upper class places unless you're rich and upper class. Race isn't even a factor. You can be a human trying to beg in the upper reaches of Sharn but you're still going to get the boot. But if you look like you belong the Watch will leave you alone. No one wants to be the idiot Watchman that insulted the Daarguun ambassador on his way to a noble's house. Of course the Daarguun ambassador is dressed appropriately and probably has a retinue. Once again you are simply arguing money is important. What the hell does it have to do with citizenship? Your comparission is totally wrong. The things you mentioned are people. In our world all there is is people! In Eberron "people" obviously has to be expanded a bit. People who don't like each other will more than likely band together against the monster. Um unless they like the monster. Leave Tharg alone you idiot traveler he's the village blacksmith you stupid fool! If monsters are supposedly SOOOO accepted then how come they all live in places like the Cogs? So they don't have to commute. And when did we say accepted and treated equally to all the other races? I certainly never said that. For the third time I will agree there is prejudice against certain races. And again I point out this has nothing to do with the argument of if they can be citizens! Second class citizen is still citizen! How come none of them whatsoever get to live in nice areas? Page 120 of S:CoT. Karg is not living in the slums. Why doesn't the Watch actively protect them? Because most live in the slums and they don't patrol there because it's too dangerous? That's right in S:CoT. Better go read it closely. :rolleyes: Because no one gives a crap about monsters. (And for very obvious reasons, Dopplegangers do NOT count. ) Yes you're absolutely right absolutely EVERYONE hates monsters. No exceptions. Everyone loves to kill them on sight. That's why they let them live in the ghettoes. They're fattening them up as they ALL conspire to one day burn it to the ground and feast. RIGHT to protection and actually getting it are TWO entirely different things. Finally you get it! Are you going to fix your arguments now? You mentioned blacks? They had a right to protection in the 50's and before but try getting it. They did get it. Often it would be a sham but they had rights and those were at least paid lip service. They got a trial even if the jury was biased against them. Yes there was racism and yes racist laws were passed limiting their freedom. But eventually they used the rights they had to stop that crap. If you actually read the Sharn: City of Towers book in full detail you'll see just how little if no protection monsterous citizens get. I'm looking for it... Page numbers please? They kill each other all the time and no Watch really goes into those areas of town. And you don't see a difference between it being legally ok to kill an Ogre and not getting caught? So if a human kills a human and doesn't get caught or the watch doesn't investigate thoroughly obviously it was legal? :rolleyes:
Shady314 06-16-07, 01:59 AM	Try looking more at the fluff and not the crunch. Your -1 penalty in no way really reflects the Roleplay attitudes of the gaurds. Your also assuming the guards would start at indifferent or helpfull. In just about every single area with monsters in it the area is poor, seedy and crime infested. And guess what? The gaurds don't really care about that area. Fluff does not supercede crunch. All guards should start at indifferent. That's where most people are supposed to start. If you're just going to move or start every character at whole different levels of friendliness before applying modifiers and making the roles then you're houseruling. The -4 also does NOT support your claim. It shoots it dead in the face because you were saying Monterous humanoids were citizens. If they are citizens then why is their penalty the same as a non-citizen? By your points if monsterous humanoids are so accepted why do they have a whopping -4? Not to mention most Monsterous humanoids have low CHA scores so that -4 only makes the problem worse, thus assuring a negative reaction from the Watch. My point stands. Actually the -4 totaly supports his claim. Because guess what. If being a monstrous humanoid and a non-citizaen were the same damn thing it would say monstrous humanoid -8! But it doesn't! It has it split in two. -4 for being monstrous. And ANOTHER -4 if you are also not a citizen. Since this is KB we're talking about here I think it's safe to assume it's not a mistake. Try reading the WHOLE book instead of a page. :rolleyes: Just try getting into a upper class area. Try it. Please. Also try actually reading the novels by Keith Baker. I seem to recall a goblin getting picked on by one of the guards. Yet she only had a -1 to her interaction roll. "Fancy that". Maybe it's cause while they are entitled to rights they rarely if ever get them? :heehee Ok this is seriously hilarious. First you say go read the S:CoT. Nived actually bothers to go do that and brings up some crunch. "No you fool look at the fluff! What does the crunch have to do with an RPG game?!" :rofl: Nived actually goes look up some fluff then bothers to quote it. "No you fool don't just find stuff on a single page read the whole book again and then quote the entire thing...?" :confused: And all the time Akuma screams about reading the book he hasn't bothered to concretely reference a single thing. :rolleyes: Too funny.
Shady314 06-16-07, 02:05 AM	She was also a known pickpocket. Which part of "So long as they refrain from engaging in illegal activity" was unclear? If a goblin was so out of place on the lifts why would she, a pickpocket EVER bother to try to get on one if she would automatically be arrested for it? Arrested for it? According to Akuma the Watch would just throw her off the lift to her death and everyone would go on about their business because monsters have absolutely no rights whatsoever and everyone wants them dead and kills on sight.
Nived 06-16-07, 02:13 AM	Back to the piece of Fluff Akuma did referance. Now I just looked and seeingas my entire Dreaming Dark tril of novels is gone I must have loaned them out (have to ask about that tomorrow at game... can't remember who I lent them to), so I can't directly quote it. However; the impression that I got from the incident mentioned is that the goblin pickpocket was known, personally, by the dwarf watchmen that was trying to arrest her. In fact I recall a line something like "Didn't I tell you if I ever found you here again I'd...." Giving the impression that he's caught her at this before, probably arrested her, more than once.... This is different than just seeing a goblin and being prepared to kill it. Besides that Daine goes and risks his life to keep the goblin from being arrested. They may be second class citizens, but they are people too.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 02:16 AM	Whatever you say.
Nived 06-16-07, 02:23 AM	We tried to answer your question and you didn't like the answer you got. Sorry we disagree. Ultimately its up to the DM, my Sharn is not going to be exactly the same as Shady's, and its going to be different from Edy's (I know my Mournland is). However the common touchstone we have is the published material. I feel that my interpretation is valid and supported and I tried to show why I believe the way I do. EDIT Furthermore let me referance a different page. Actually for those counting this is the fourth page I've referanced (and three different chapters no less). There is a section in the Law and Order chapter titled "Who is protected" It states quite clearly Breland adheres to the Galifar Code of Justice. Currently the protection of the law is extended to all citizens of the 12 nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold and all members of the dragonmarked houses. So there is the answer to your question. Who is protected by the Code of Galifar? All citizens of Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, Thrane, The Eldeen Reaches, Darguun, Talenta Plains, Q'Barra, The Lhazzar Principalities, Mror Holds, Valenar, and Zilargo. We can argue up and down about what makes a citizen, but there is your answer. Good day sir.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 02:38 AM	:rofl: This from the guy who says go read the books more closely! Go read your ECS. Alignment rules no longer apply. (Except to outsiders) And really your argument is alignment? What about the evil humans and others! Even if you're wildly optimistic at least 1/4 are probably evil! This is the world where alignment just doesn't mean much. WRONG. It's so typical a idiot would read ECS and think the world is full of Drizzt clones monsters. It doesn't say all of a sudden monsters are good and happy and nice. What it says is that not all the old sterotypes are as true. It doesn't just throw the alingemnts out the window. Most monsters are STILL evil pal. Get over it. Uh you mean the nation of monsters with a fully functioning society? What about them? If they live in Droaam clearly they aren't residents/citizens of the 5N. And this is just where the nationalism comes in. People hate Droaam. Not because it's full of monsters though that's scary because most are big and can be very dangerous but because it's run by 3 legendary evil hags and it's seen as a threat to the nation. Yeah the nation full of EVIL monsters who don't like humans? I already accepted a long time ago there is definitely prejudice against them. It's so annoying when posters can't stay on point. This started off as "who could be citizens and protected by the code." Now you've decided to instead argue whether monstrous races are treated completely fairly. They aren't. That's a different discussion. One we can have if you'd like but please try to stay focused. Wrong again. I didn't bring up that monsters were protected by Galifar. You or someone else did. I disagreed and in typical internet argument fashion you try and twist it around and make it look like I brought up the monsters first. You mean most ogres will probably do menial labor instead of writing a thesis! NO! Shocking! I had no idea that because someone was dumb and had a poor job they had no rights whatsoever and you could just kill them for fun with no legal repercussions. :rolleyes: Sigh. Nice of you to misinterpet what I said. I meant monsters wouldn't be welcomed into a high class joint to work there. I mean really are you going to hire what is the equivalent of someone dressed in rags and with a low education in a big ole law firm or something? NO your not. That's what the equivalent of having most monsters work for you would be like. Monsters aren't gonna get the big bucks jobs. They are going to get the crappy jobs most likely. And actually yeah, you CAN klil them with no legal repurcussions if your say a noble or something. King Boreanel himself could go around killing monsters left and right and he'd be just fine. As could any other well to do citizen. Sorry pal but no one cares about the plight of the poor downtrodden monsters and you need to get that just because they live in the city doesn't mean someone who IS racist and hatefull couldn't go down and kill them. You totally and completly misinterpet what I say but I'm used to that on the net. You think that because I say they wouldn't be trusted that NOONE would trust them. You think because I say that some people would indeed kill them and that the right people could get away with it that everyone would do it. :rolleyes: Hmmmmm so according to you the watch doesn't care about poor PEOPLE. As in any poor person no matter the species. I think that's somewhat accurate. I never got the vibe from S:CoT the entire watch was utterly corrupt and incompetent though. You commit a crime right in front of their face they're going to care. Maybe they won't care if you slip them some coin but that's just a different kind of care. Lets see try reading page 125-126. Oh and heres a nice one that you somehow didn't see. MURDER on page 127. It mentions how the death of a goblin gambler wouldn't even reach court. You'd be incorrect. Go ahead and ask Keith. The law protects any citizen. You can argue the implementation isn't 100% fair and even. I'll agree with you on that. But that wasn't what you asked. Nah I wouldn't. Oh btw monsters WOULD get a -8 penalty after all considering they are monsters and most are in peasant clothes if not worse or none at all and peasant clothes give a -4 to a reaction roll. Monsters are pretty screwed when it comes to legal matters. Get over it already. :D
Nived 06-16-07, 02:45 AM	[I] Lets see try reading page 125-126. Oh and heres a nice one that you somehow didn't see. MURDER on page 127. It mentions how the death of a goblin gambler wouldn't even reach court. Had you read page 126 this wouldn't even be a thread, please read my above post quoting page 126. Also this conversation was inevitable because in your original post that started this thread you said "I know monstrous humanoids aren't" We disagreed with that statement, so yeah in answering the question of whose protected we brought up your assertion
Shady314 06-16-07, 02:57 AM	[I] WRONG. It's so typical a idiot would read ECS and think the world is full of Drizzt clones monsters. Whoa careful with the flaming. Try to control yourself. What is with the extremes? Just because monsters are no longer bloodthirsty hordes and I point that out I play every monster as a goody two shoes paladin? :confused: It doesn't say all of a sudden monsters are good and happy and nice. True...... What it says is that not all the old sterotypes are as true. It doesn't just throw the alingemnts out the window. Uh yes it does. If the stereotypes (which isn't the right thing to call them since in DnD the stereotypes are basically 100% true) are no longer true it all goes out the window. The ECS says monsters no longer follow alignment rules and specifically references the ALWAYS evil monsters like red dragons and says there are just as mnay good and neutral ones as evil. If this is true of monsters that are ALWAYS evil why does it not apply to the often evil ones??? Most monsters are STILL evil pal. Get over it. So are many humans... What's your freaking point? You just keep repeating the same things over and over that have nothing to do with your OP! What does alignment have to do with citizenship?! Evil humans can be citizens therefore alignment means NOtHING! Yeah the nation full of EVIL monsters who don't like humans? No one hates Droaam because of the alignment. Abandon this ridiculousness. Droaam is a serious military threat to the nations and that fear becomes hatred. It doesn't have anything to do with their species. Please remember the territory that is now Droaam used to be Breland! They took brelish territory and Boranel thinks the Hags killed his wife. That's where the vitriol comes from. Wrong again. I didn't bring up that monsters were protected by Galifar. You or someone else did. I disagreed and in typical internet argument fashion you try and twist it around and make it look like I brought up the monsters first. Um you mean in your very first post you didn't say monstrous humanoids are not protected? Better look again. That's bringing it up. Sigh. Nice of you to misinterpet what I said. I meant monsters wouldn't be welcomed into a high class joint to work there. Page 120 S:CoT don't talk again till you've read about Karg ok? I mean really are you going to hire what is the equivalent of someone dressed in rags and with a low education in a big ole law firm or something? :rolleyes: Again your point means nothing because it has nothing to do with species. I wouldn't hire ANY unqualified unkempt individual even if they were a human citizen. NO your not. That's what the equivalent of having most monsters work for you would be like. Since when does MOST=ALL? Monsters aren't gonna get the big bucks jobs. They are going to get the crappy jobs most likely. Another irrelevant point. What's this have to do with citizenship and legal protection? And actually yeah, you CAN klil them with no legal repurcussions if your say a noble or something. King Boreanel himself could go around killing monsters left and right and he'd be just fine. As could any other well to do citizen. That's utterly ridiculous. If you're going to argue something that asinine you better have something concrete to back it up.... I'll wait. Sorry pal but no one cares about the plight of the poor downtrodden monsters and you need to get that just because they live in the city doesn't mean someone who IS racist and hatefull couldn't go down and kill them. Well there's the fact a hateful racist SOB down in the slums is surrounded by the big bad evil monsters... That'd complicate things. Then there's the fact it's illegal. You totally and completly misinterpet what I say but I'm used to that on the net. You think that because I say they wouldn't be trusted that NOONE would trust them. You think because I say that some people would indeed kill them and that the right people could get away with it that everyone would do it. :rolleyes: I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying you're just presenting a horrid argument. You are supposedly trying to prove monsters can't be citizens and lack any legal protection whatsoever. Then you argue things like "If I kill an ogre in the slums the watch won't investigate." Anyone can tell you that logical train of thought is broken. If I steal money from a cash register and no one even notices and therefore no one investigates that doesn't mean it's magically legal. Or you say Ogre's can't be citizens! No one trusts them! Which ignores the fact lots of people aren't trusted. Changelings are the ones famous for being untrustworthy. But they are citizens nonetheless. Your arguments aren't supporting your position. Mostly because they're your own crazy opinions with no basis in the canon. Lets see try reading page 125-126. Oh and heres a nice one that you somehow didn't see. MURDER on page 127. It mentions how the death of a goblin gambler wouldn't even reach court. (Sigh) Ok for the fourth..fifth? time. There's a difference between having legal rights and getting the benefit of them all the time. That's straight from your own posts. So please please please get it through your head that arguing there's prejudice against races and therefore uneven law enforcement does not support an argument that they don't have any rights at all. Nah I wouldn't. Oh btw monsters WOULD get a -8 penalty after all considering they are monsters and most are in peasant clothes if not worse or none at all and peasant clothes give a -4 to a reaction roll. Monsters are pretty screwed when it comes to legal matters. Get over it already. :D It's becoming painful to read your "arguments" if they can be called that. I could take a human commoner (oh and most commoners are peasants so they have peasant clothes omg! -4 right there) and do enough to get them an even worse modifier than -8. That doesn't mean the default is -8 or whatever nor does it mean magically humans can't be citizens with rights.
Nived 06-16-07, 03:03 AM	You know what? Lets stop this, we have our opinions, and you have yours Akuma, we're allowed to disagree. But you know what every part of your original question has been answered. I'm just wondering what races are protected under the code of Galifar? I know monstrous humanoids are not. What about subraces? Like would drow, duergar, sniverneblin be protected? What about planetouched? I belive I read something somewhere that said planetouched were protected but not sure where I saw it. The laws protect the liberties of humanoids-even orcs and drow-as long as they do not engage in criminal activities. This includes a few creatures that are not humanoids, but fall into the same catagory, such as the planetouched races and outsiders. Monster Manual: bugbear, dwarf, elf, gnoll, gnome, goblin, halfling, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, locathah, merfolk, orc, plantouched (all), sahuagin, troglodyte. Monster Manual II: Planetouched (All) Monster Manual III: flind (gnoll), kenku, phoelarch, warforged scout. Fiend Folio: feytouched, planetouched (all) Eberron Campaign Setting: changling, inspired (all), kalashtar, shifter, warforged. That is the entirety of your answer right there. That's it. Planetouched protected. You did read it.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 04:37 AM	Trust me, it's just as painfull to read your arguments and strawmen.
Shady314 06-16-07, 04:48 AM	Trust me, it's just as painfull to read your arguments and strawmen. Well then that will teach you to ask for opinions on a message board if you're not actually interested. :rolleyes:
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 05:06 AM	Well then that will teach you to ask for opinions on a message board if you're not actually interested. :rolleyes: Pft, so because I disagree it means I'm not interestested. Typical. :rolleyes: If I ask someone for a answer on something and I feel it to be incorrect I'm just supposed to nod my head and agree? Sorry but no, I don't work that way and neither should you. If I ask for a answer and the answer I get sounds wrong to me I say so.
Shady314 06-16-07, 08:23 AM	Pft, so because I disagree it means I'm not interestested. Typical. :rolleyes: If I ask someone for a answer on something and I feel it to be incorrect I'm just supposed to nod my head and agree? Sorry but no, I don't work that way and neither should you. If I ask for a answer and the answer I get sounds wrong to me I say so. If you we're interested in a real discussion why did you just dismiss what was said out of hand without attempting to respond constructively? When someone's response is simply "Nope. That's wrong" after they've asked a question I tend to assume they're not really looking for opinions. And yes if I ask a question and get an answer I don't argue with the person. If I think I already know the answer I'm not going to ask the question. That's one of the most annoying things people can do. I once had someone who asked me for directions to a store. This store was next to where I lived. I drove by the store very often. I said "Oh no problem I know exactly where that is" and I gave them detailed directions and the person looked at me and said I don't think that's correct and walked off. And this was basically a tourist that had no idea where anything was. Needless to say I was left speechless. I thought they must have been pranking me or something until they asked someone else. Don't be that person ok. If you know the answer don't solicit opinions so you can tell someone they're wrong. If you must you could try doing it politely. "Gee are you sure?" "Why do you think that?" "Is there something in the books or on the web that makes you assume that?" That shows an interest. Calling me an idiot drizzt clone lover shows you don't really care what I'm saying.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 08:39 AM	If you we're interested in a real discussion why did you just dismiss what was said out of hand without attempting to respond constructively? When someone's response is simply "Nope. That's wrong" after they've asked a question I tend to assume they're not really looking for opinions. And yes if I ask a question and get an answer I don't argue with the person. If I think I already know the answer I'm not going to ask the question. That's one of the most annoying things people can do. I once had someone who asked me for directions to a store. This store was next to where I lived. I drove by the store very often. I gave them detailed directions and the person looked at me and said I don't think that's correct and walked off. And this was basically a tourist that had no idea where anything was. Needless to say I was left speechless. I thought they must have been pranking me or something until they asked someone else. Don't be that person ok. If you know the answer don't solicit opinions so you can tell someone they're wrong. If you must you could try doing it politely. "Gee are you sure?" "Why do you think that?" "Is there something in the books or on the web that makes you assume that?" That shows an interest. Calling me an idiot drizzt clone lover shows you don't really care what I'm saying. Just because I don't know the 100% correct answer doesn't mean I dont know a wrong answer when I hear one. I can ask someone the answer to something and still be pretty sure what something ISNT vs what it is. Don't be the person who can't take it when someone asks a question and their answer is wrong. That CAN happen. I could ask you what page a rule is on and you could give me the wrong page number and I could respond that "no that page has x on it." If I ask someone a question and their answer sounds pretty damn wrong to me I don't have to act like it's right. If I ask you what color the sky is (lets say it's black) and you tell me it's red and I know it's not red that doesn't mean I know the answer to my question. It just means I know YOUR answer is wrong. I mean haven't you heard of multiple choice? Sometimes you take a test and you don't know which answer is the 100% right one but there's a few answers your sure are wrong?
Shady314 06-16-07, 09:29 AM	Just because I don't know the 100% correct answer doesn't mean I dont know a wrong answer when I hear one. I can ask someone the answer to something and still be pretty sure what something ISNT vs what it is. Don't be the person who can't take it when someone asks a question and their answer is wrong. That CAN happen. I could ask you what page a rule is on and you could give me the wrong page number and I could respond that "no that page has x on it." If I ask someone a question and their answer sounds pretty damn wrong to me I don't have to act like it's right. If I ask you what color the sky is (lets say it's black) and you tell me it's red and I know it's not red that doesn't mean I know the answer to my question. It just means I know YOUR answer is wrong. I mean haven't you heard of multiple choice? Sometimes you take a test and you don't know which answer is the 100% right one but there's a few answers your sure are wrong? You DO have to act like your the one asking the question and show a certain civility to someone that bothers to respond to it. Whether they're wrong or not. Honestly. In those situations I would not correct them. I would just ask someone else. Or disagree politely. Because they're either just really stupid or intending to lie to me OR there's that tiny possibility I'm the dumb one. Of course I'm not going to ask what color the sky is since I know the answer. :) If I make a mistake on a page number you could come back and call me an idiot or say you think I might have made a mistake and to check. I'm sure you see the difference in tone. I can accept when I'm wrong. I've even apologized for it on this very board and you can search topics I've been in and find them. I have many vices but not pride. However when you call me an idiot drizzt clone lover and yell at people to "read the book!" you're not showing an interest and constructively criticizing. Saying "page such and such leads me to believe otherwise" is a good way to respond and start a real discussion. Saying "geez have you even looked at this book" shows an utter disregard for someone bothering to help. I even took the opportunity to go ahead and ask Keith for you. Who said he'd try to post his answer on bossythecow over the weekend. Keith's view may be closer to yours than mine. I don't know. It doesn't bother me either way. But I know I'll think twice before answering anything you ask in the future. Sorry for bothering to respond to your topic. Next time I'll try to just ignore any requests for help you make. Later.
Edymnion 06-17-07, 12:48 PM	But I know I'll think twice before answering anything you ask in the future. Sorry for bothering to respond to your topic. Next time I'll try to just ignore any requests for help you make. Later.Sad, but true.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 04:07 PM	Whats more sad but true is him acting like he's the only person I could ever ask for help who could give any decent answers. I've already asked Keith Baker anyway and he gave some far better answers, which actually did back up some of what I was saying.