Code of Kaius [Archive] - Wizards Community

Code of Kaius [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kawnell
10-26-06, 05:53 PM The only mention of the Code of Kaius is in the ECS and states, "..., the Code of Kaius that developed from (the Galifar Code of Justice) is more rigid and less forgiving."

So I can see punishments being harsher for crimes than they would have been, but are there any other changes that you are including?

One of the things I definitely need to know is 'are you innocent until proven guilty' ? Under the Galifar Code of Justice that's the case. Has Kaius III changed that?
yossarius
10-26-06, 06:09 PM I would think that it would have the feel of military tribunals and martial law. "Disenters" can be legally abducted in the middle of the night, the accused don't necessarily have a right to confront the evidence/witnesses against them, etc. Mildly paranoid "drumhead" trials.

Not that every single trial should be this way. Only those where a lower level of the government (or perhaps Kaius himself) has a specific intrest in the outcome of the trial.

EDIT: Removed offending text.
darkthought
10-26-06, 08:12 PM I'd also add in the ability to be held without being charged. Heck, in the ECS, I believe there's a plot hook about the PCs not having the correct travelling / identification papers, and are given the choice of doing a job for Karrnath, or serving Karrnath as undead over in Fort Bones / Zombie.

Sort of the way things are getting to now in America (sorry, couldn't resist).

Shame that you don't have enough willpower to resist. This is not the place or topic to discuss RL political matters. Take it somewhere else please.
Thanqol
10-26-06, 08:22 PM I also suppose it'd involve a line of thinking like "Kill him first, Speak with Dead to find his guilt, then raise him as either a vampire or a mindless zombie depending on innocence or guilt."
TheFounderPrime
10-27-06, 01:51 AM I sometimes envision the Karnnathi justice system like the Cardassian justice system from Star Trek (TNG and DS9). Here are some of the basics:

1). No "criminal" is brought to trial until authorities have already found the defendent guilty.

2). Defendents cannot present evidence until the trial is underway--and therefore, until AFTER the verdict of guilty has already been rendered.

3). Defendents are required to testify against themselves.

5). The "prosecutor"'s function is mainly to help the offender concede to the wisdom of the court and confess his guilt. The "defense" attorney assists the offender during the proceedings, but is not permitted to address the court or any other officers of the court.

6). The purpose of the court system is to reinforce cultural norms, and to reassure the people that "good" triumphs over "evil."

If you can get your hands on the Star Trek DS9 episode "Tribunal," everything will be made much clearer....
Melvin the Mediocre
10-27-06, 02:42 PM I'll pull in two historical examples that I think Kaius should follow: Dracula (of course) and Gengis Khan.

Dracula would frequently test his guests/subjects to see if they would be innocent. For example, if he promised them 100 silver coins, he would give them a bag with 101. If they did not return the extra coin, they were thieves and would be put to death.

Under Gengis Khan, a soldier discovered that his lieutenent was plotting to assinate Gengis. When the soldier reported the news to the Khan, the leiutenant was put to death for his plot, AND the soldier was put to death for insubordination.
goblin_pride
10-29-06, 09:52 AM Under Gengis Khan, a soldier discovered that his lieutenent was plotting to assinate Gengis. When the soldier reported the news to the Khan, the leiutenant was put to death for his plot, AND the soldier was put to death for insubordination.

The soldier was put to death for disloyalty to his superior not insubordination.
DarkWarriorKarg
10-29-06, 11:30 AM Under Gengis Khan, a soldier discovered that his lieutenent was plotting to assinate Gengis. When the soldier reported the news to the Khan, the leiutenant was put to death for his plot, AND the soldier was put to death for insubordination.

This part, I would object to. Why? It enforces the idea that loyalty to your Warlord, and not the Crown, is primordial.

I never got the impression that Karrnath was "obey, don't think". Note that we don't have the full story, here. maybe the soldier exposed his Kahn in order to gain a reward for himself, and not out of loyalty to Ghengis.

If anyone saw the latest Galactica (season 3), I think the Star CHamber tactics used in episode 5 would summarize "justice" for high-level offenders, along with uses of "Charm Person", "Aura of Truth", the occasional telepath, Speak with dead, etc.

"Come with us. You have been accused of a serious crime. Failure to submit is evidence of guilt."
goblin_pride
10-29-06, 12:06 PM This part, I would object to. Why? It enforces the idea that loyalty to your Warlord, and not the Crown, is primordial.

The point of killing the one that reported the plot is that his loyalty to his fellows is questionable. Mongols took the espirit de corps to an extreme, a man that would report such a plot for his own gain is dangerous to morale. A man that would report such a plot out of duty shouldn't have a lieutenant above him.
aelryinth
10-29-06, 06:55 PM Also note that the Mongol soldier probably knew he was facing a death sentence for doing what he did...and he did his duty anyways. While we might see him nowadays as a fool or a dupe, he was probably seen as a hero by his fellow Mongols.

There's similar stories based on Japanese samurai culture. the one that pops into my head is the one where a village headman approaches the Shogun's caravan as it is on a tour of the lands and throws himself down before it. The shogun hears his tale of a corrupt local governor, investigates, confirms it, and has the governor put to death. he also kills the headsman for daring to speak to someone so far above his station...a punishment the headman knew was going to happen, and yet he did what he must for his village.

Heroism, or fools, or just unlucky bastards? It's for you to decide.

===Aelryinth
OneWinged4ngel
10-29-06, 08:58 PM That's pretty much how it worked. Station was a major deal in both of those societies, as well as submission to those of a higher position.
DarkWarriorKarg
10-30-06, 09:25 AM I never got the idea that Karrnath was so extreme... I think they would have mentioned such a dramatic cultural change in 5 nations.:D
Melvin the Mediocre
10-30-06, 12:02 PM Note that we don't have the full story, here. maybe the soldier exposed his Kahn in order to gain a reward for himself, and not out of loyalty to Ghengis.

I just did a quick search on google to see if I could get a good recounting of the incident, but my google-fu was lacking. At any rate, I should have clarified I was bringing the story up to show how ruthless an evil tyrant could be more than anything. However, I can easily see Kaius ordering and carrying out death sentances for questionable accounts of treason. And a fanatic soldier who figured he would come back as a karnathi skeleton anyways might verywell forfeit his life to serve his king in the fashion of the mongul soldier.
crimson_aneurysm
11-04-06, 07:21 PM My interpretation of Kaius is not an evil tyrant...actually his character is part of what makes the setting so interesting for me. I interpret him as a tyrant, but not necessarily evil. Not really a benevolent dictator, either, just incredibly autocratic - not cruel. The way I think of Karrnath in general is somewhat like Germany shortly before WWI: very nationalistic, little focus on the rights of the individual.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kawnell 10-26-06, 05:53 PM	The only mention of the Code of Kaius is in the ECS and states, "..., the Code of Kaius that developed from (the Galifar Code of Justice) is more rigid and less forgiving." So I can see punishments being harsher for crimes than they would have been, but are there any other changes that you are including? One of the things I definitely need to know is 'are you innocent until proven guilty' ? Under the Galifar Code of Justice that's the case. Has Kaius III changed that?
yossarius 10-26-06, 06:09 PM	I would think that it would have the feel of military tribunals and martial law. "Disenters" can be legally abducted in the middle of the night, the accused don't necessarily have a right to confront the evidence/witnesses against them, etc. Mildly paranoid "drumhead" trials. Not that every single trial should be this way. Only those where a lower level of the government (or perhaps Kaius himself) has a specific intrest in the outcome of the trial. EDIT: Removed offending text.
darkthought 10-26-06, 08:12 PM	I'd also add in the ability to be held without being charged. Heck, in the ECS, I believe there's a plot hook about the PCs not having the correct travelling / identification papers, and are given the choice of doing a job for Karrnath, or serving Karrnath as undead over in Fort Bones / Zombie. Sort of the way things are getting to now in America (sorry, couldn't resist). Shame that you don't have enough willpower to resist. This is not the place or topic to discuss RL political matters. Take it somewhere else please.
Thanqol 10-26-06, 08:22 PM	I also suppose it'd involve a line of thinking like "Kill him first, Speak with Dead to find his guilt, then raise him as either a vampire or a mindless zombie depending on innocence or guilt."
TheFounderPrime 10-27-06, 01:51 AM	I sometimes envision the Karnnathi justice system like the Cardassian justice system from Star Trek (TNG and DS9). Here are some of the basics: 1). No "criminal" is brought to trial until authorities have already found the defendent guilty. 2). Defendents cannot present evidence until the trial is underway--and therefore, until AFTER the verdict of guilty has already been rendered. 3). Defendents are required to testify against themselves. 5). The "prosecutor"'s function is mainly to help the offender concede to the wisdom of the court and confess his guilt. The "defense" attorney assists the offender during the proceedings, but is not permitted to address the court or any other officers of the court. 6). The purpose of the court system is to reinforce cultural norms, and to reassure the people that "good" triumphs over "evil." If you can get your hands on the Star Trek DS9 episode "Tribunal," everything will be made much clearer....
Melvin the Mediocre 10-27-06, 02:42 PM	I'll pull in two historical examples that I think Kaius should follow: Dracula (of course) and Gengis Khan. Dracula would frequently test his guests/subjects to see if they would be innocent. For example, if he promised them 100 silver coins, he would give them a bag with 101. If they did not return the extra coin, they were thieves and would be put to death. Under Gengis Khan, a soldier discovered that his lieutenent was plotting to assinate Gengis. When the soldier reported the news to the Khan, the leiutenant was put to death for his plot, AND the soldier was put to death for insubordination.
goblin_pride 10-29-06, 09:52 AM	Under Gengis Khan, a soldier discovered that his lieutenent was plotting to assinate Gengis. When the soldier reported the news to the Khan, the leiutenant was put to death for his plot, AND the soldier was put to death for insubordination. The soldier was put to death for disloyalty to his superior not insubordination.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-29-06, 11:30 AM	Under Gengis Khan, a soldier discovered that his lieutenent was plotting to assinate Gengis. When the soldier reported the news to the Khan, the leiutenant was put to death for his plot, AND the soldier was put to death for insubordination. This part, I would object to. Why? It enforces the idea that loyalty to your Warlord, and not the Crown, is primordial. I never got the impression that Karrnath was "obey, don't think". Note that we don't have the full story, here. maybe the soldier exposed his Kahn in order to gain a reward for himself, and not out of loyalty to Ghengis. If anyone saw the latest Galactica (season 3), I think the Star CHamber tactics used in episode 5 would summarize "justice" for high-level offenders, along with uses of "Charm Person", "Aura of Truth", the occasional telepath, Speak with dead, etc. "Come with us. You have been accused of a serious crime. Failure to submit is evidence of guilt."
goblin_pride 10-29-06, 12:06 PM	This part, I would object to. Why? It enforces the idea that loyalty to your Warlord, and not the Crown, is primordial. The point of killing the one that reported the plot is that his loyalty to his fellows is questionable. Mongols took the espirit de corps to an extreme, a man that would report such a plot for his own gain is dangerous to morale. A man that would report such a plot out of duty shouldn't have a lieutenant above him.
aelryinth 10-29-06, 06:55 PM	Also note that the Mongol soldier probably knew he was facing a death sentence for doing what he did...and he did his duty anyways. While we might see him nowadays as a fool or a dupe, he was probably seen as a hero by his fellow Mongols. There's similar stories based on Japanese samurai culture. the one that pops into my head is the one where a village headman approaches the Shogun's caravan as it is on a tour of the lands and throws himself down before it. The shogun hears his tale of a corrupt local governor, investigates, confirms it, and has the governor put to death. he also kills the headsman for daring to speak to someone so far above his station...a punishment the headman knew was going to happen, and yet he did what he must for his village. Heroism, or fools, or just unlucky bastards? It's for you to decide. ===Aelryinth
OneWinged4ngel 10-29-06, 08:58 PM	That's pretty much how it worked. Station was a major deal in both of those societies, as well as submission to those of a higher position.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-30-06, 09:25 AM	I never got the idea that Karrnath was so extreme... I think they would have mentioned such a dramatic cultural change in 5 nations.:D
Melvin the Mediocre 10-30-06, 12:02 PM	Note that we don't have the full story, here. maybe the soldier exposed his Kahn in order to gain a reward for himself, and not out of loyalty to Ghengis. I just did a quick search on google to see if I could get a good recounting of the incident, but my google-fu was lacking. At any rate, I should have clarified I was bringing the story up to show how ruthless an evil tyrant could be more than anything. However, I can easily see Kaius ordering and carrying out death sentances for questionable accounts of treason. And a fanatic soldier who figured he would come back as a karnathi skeleton anyways might verywell forfeit his life to serve his king in the fashion of the mongul soldier.
crimson_aneurysm 11-04-06, 07:21 PM	My interpretation of Kaius is not an evil tyrant...actually his character is part of what makes the setting so interesting for me. I interpret him as a tyrant, but not necessarily evil. Not really a benevolent dictator, either, just incredibly autocratic - not cruel. The way I think of Karrnath in general is somewhat like Germany shortly before WWI: very nationalistic, little focus on the rights of the individual.