Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nevcoup 11-13-04, 11:42 AM	Is it just me, or does the "frame in frame" comic book art style, along with the color schemes distract from the feel of Eberron. I, personally, do not need comic style to create an Indiana Jones type feel for the setting. In fact, the art style takes away from the feeling by making me think of superheroes...undefeatable superheroes. PC's in Eberron are heroes, but they are so by virtue of skill, experience, and luck (action points)....not the same as superheroes. I am an avid fan of Eberron, and my only complaint is the art. Why was this style chosen? :confused: It distracts from the noir feel of Eberron. Comics, to me, are the antithesis of Noir. :weep:
LazarusX 11-13-04, 11:47 AM	I don't know...i look at it as "comics with class". Yes, they are comic style drawings, but I don't think it takes away from anything. But; my opinion, your opinion; they're all opinions :)
jonthegm 11-13-04, 12:03 PM	Is it just me, or does the "frame in frame" comic book art style, along with the color schemes distract from the feel of Eberron. I, personally, do not need comic style to create an Indiana Jones type feel for the setting. In fact, the art style takes away from the feeling by making me think of superheroes...undefeatable superheroes. PC's in Eberron are heroes, but they are so by virtue of skill, experience, and luck (action points)....not the same as superheroes. I am an avid fan of Eberron, and my only complaint is the art. Why was this style chosen? :confused: It distracts from the noir feel of Eberron. Comics, to me, are the antithesis of Noir. :weep: Hmm... I don't know... Kingdom Come, the Watchmen, and some of the Sandman comics are pretty noir-esque. They may not be exactly noir, but they do have that pulpy feel (and the first two still have supers)
MarkB 11-13-04, 12:04 PM	Well, if your experience of comics is limited, then I suppose it's reasonable to think of all comic art as 'superhero' art, but there are plenty of comics that don't deal with superheroes, and even amongst superhero comics there are plenty that deal with dark, even noir, themes. Just to pick a well-known example, anyone attempting to describe the Sandman comics as "the antithesis of noir" would have a hard time of it. Personally, I love the comic art, and don't find it at all out of place. To a large extent, comics are the modern equivalent of pulp fiction, and so are perfectly at home with Eberron.
hiryuu 11-13-04, 12:05 PM	Pulp/noir originated in comics. After all, that's where the term "pulp" comes from, because of the low-grade quality of paper used to print the early magazines on, The art in those chapter openers is really reminiscent of the art styles used in modern pulp. Especially in the Eberron core book - they remind me of the style Mike Mignola uses for Hellboy. So no, I really don't find them distracting myself.
jonthegm 11-13-04, 12:11 PM	Pulp/noir originated in comics. After all, that's where the term "pulp" comes from, because of the low-grade quality of paper used to print the early magazines on, The art in those chapter openers is really reminiscent of the art styles used in modern pulp. Especially in the Eberron core book - they remind me of the style Mike Mignola uses for Hellboy. So no, I really don't find them distracting myself. Who wants to join me in sitting outside Mike Mignola's house until he draws me a warforged and an artificer fighting a vampire in the cogs?
nevcoup 11-13-04, 12:18 PM	comics, it is supposed to be a mood as well (not just a descriptor of poor quality paper). I am not a fan of comics, so maybe this is the issue I have. I am, however, familiar with the comics mentioned so far (and have seen them) because a friend of mine is an avid collector for over 20 years. While I agree that Sandman is not superhero-type work, it also fails to be noir in the sense I see for Eberron. Being "psychologically dark" is a kind of noir, but the problem, as I see it, is that all the "frame in frame" art is just that, dark, tortured, dingy... Also, if the comic art were in charcoal (B&W), instead of color, then it might match the feel better. Psychological noir, done in color, just doesn't seem right. Moreover, Noir can be captured in more ways than comic art with frame in frame art of grimacing tortured people and horse nostrils. There is more to Eberron than that. There is high adventure ala Indiana Jones. Yet I see little artwork that captures that feel, and none of the comic style art does this. Again, I want to know if anyone knows why comic art was chosen to be the general feel for Eberron. If it is just an etymological accident due to "pulp" being associated with comics, then I am dissapointed.
polt 11-13-04, 12:26 PM	I like the comic pages, its awesome art with a lot of eberron feel in it.
jonthegm 11-13-04, 12:29 PM	comics, it is supposed to be a mood as well (not just a descriptor of poor quality paper). I am not a fan of comics, so maybe this is the issue I have. I am, however, familiar with the comics mentioned so far (and have seen them) because a friend of mine is an avid collector for over 20 years. While I agree that Sandman is not superhero-type work, it also fails to be noir in the sense I see for Eberron. Being "psychologically dark" is a kind of noir, but the problem, as I see it, is that all the "frame in frame" art is just that, dark, tortured, dingy... Also, if the comic art were in charcoal (B&W), instead of color, then it might match the feel better. Psychological noir, done in color, just doesn't seem right. Moreover, Noir can be captured in more ways than comic art with frame in frame art of grimacing tortured people and horse nostrils. There is more to Eberron than that. There is high adventure ala Indiana Jones. Yet I see little artwork that captures that feel, and none of the comic style art does this. Again, I want to know if anyone knows why comic art was chosen to be the general feel for Eberron. If it is just an etymological accident due to "pulp" being associated with comics, then I am dissapointed. Noir to me includes Chinatown, Fargo, and Blade Runner (well, ok, so they're neo-noir, but bite me), which are all in color (though Fargo could be said to have been shot in one color). "That Noir feel" isn't about the look, in my mind, it's about the atmosphere. Noir is about nihilism and self-destruction. The bleakness of a world in which you can't do anything but play the sap to machinations beyond your control. Pulp, on the other hand, is not Noir at all. Pulp is skycaptain and flash gordon and Lensman. Pulp to me is "not much plot, a whole lotta action, and even more way cool set pieces." Pulp is where the heros are heros and the bad guys are REALLY BAD. Pulp is about style, not substance. In my mind, eberron is the happy midpoint between the two. A nice category that shares some stylistic similarities to traditional cyberpunk and d20 modern campaigns. It's a world where nothing is what it seems... grand machinations run on behind the scenes... the players are getting used all the time... but at the same time they have the opportunity to rise up and refuse in a meaningful way. If I want a true noir-esque game, I'd make my players play HERO system at 50 point normals.
MarkB 11-13-04, 12:30 PM	I'd mostly assumed that it was due to Eberron being based more upon cinematic than literary styles of fantasy. If you want to portray the dynamism of action-adventure movies and all you've got is the printed page, comic-book-style art is a great way to do it.
nevcoup 11-13-04, 12:41 PM	I appreciate the responses. Alas, I still cannot stand the comic art selections. I can, of course, live with them. I guess it is just that I have never enjoyed the newer comic art (frame in frame, confusing action portraits, everyone seemingly grimacing...). One of you (right above) gave a great description of noir. I agree. Yet, I think comics are the least effective way to portray that mood. In any event, I love Eberron and can simply ignore the comic work :thinks:
Edymnion 11-13-04, 12:47 PM	If you don't like the comic style, you could always just think of it as being the style of the graphic novel instead ;)
nevcoup 11-13-04, 12:52 PM	If you don't like the comic style, you could always just think of it as being the style of the graphic novel instead ;) Thanks Edy.... I see the light now :rimshot: ;)
Edymnion 11-13-04, 01:22 PM	Thanks Edy.... I see the light now :rimshot: ;)Glad to be of service! :D
Lujayne34 11-13-04, 02:07 PM	If you don't like the comic style, you could always just think of it as being the style of the graphic novel instead ;) Or you could look at it as "story board" form. Since Eberron is based on cinematic appeal as well. Ever seen the story board work for Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies? Watch the "making of" portions of the respective dvd's and you will see what I mean.
Korhal IV 11-13-04, 02:26 PM	I like the comic book style too. It's head and shoulders above the artwork of most D&D books, IMO. Especially the full-page illustrations - those just capture the intensity of the actions. :)
Sucros 11-13-04, 03:39 PM	I love 'em. Great feel to them, especially the action ones.
nevcoup 11-13-04, 03:48 PM	Oddly enough, my least favorites are the action comics. They are too confusing and cluttered. I prefer more static images that allow for imagination.
Edymnion 11-13-04, 04:22 PM	Its really just a matter of personal preferance. Some will like it, some won't, and it has nothing to do with the actual image or style in question. For example, I think the busts from the Sharn art preview look TERRIBLE. I would have been ashamed to have made those and have the public see them. But, other people think they look really good. I'm not right, they're not wrong, we just have differant tastes. Its what makes the world go round :D
Androlphas 11-13-04, 04:32 PM	I like the comic illustrations. They convey the cinematic feel of the setting without actually enclosing a DVD. Only problem with them is that you get into them when there's really no rest of the story :(
nevcoup 11-13-04, 04:46 PM	Its really just a matter of personal preferance. Some will like it, some won't, and it has nothing to do with the actual image or style in question. For example, I think the busts from the Sharn art preview look TERRIBLE. I would have been ashamed to have made those and have the public see them. But, other people think they look really good. I'm not right, they're not wrong, we just have differant tastes. Its what makes the world go round :D I know it is a matter of taste, yet I just worry that the old-school taste of D&D art is about to go down the tubes. The comic style is one thing. I don't like it, but can live with it. :surrender The day I see an anime style art in a D&D book will be a sad day indeed. :gah: I think the recent shift is headed that way for marketing purposes :ahem: I do wonder, however, if D&D art is "just" taste based. For example, few (if any) would agree that South Park style animation captures the feel (though I love "The Order of the Stick!"). I am in the minority here, I know this :allalone: Just out of curiosity...for those posting to this thread from here on out...how old are you? I ask, not to be rude, but to get a sense of just how out of touch I am with current fantasy art sensibilities. I am 35, and a fan of the old school (even Otus' work) D&D art. Maybe I'm a silly purist :crazy:
MarkB 11-13-04, 05:09 PM	I know it is a matter of taste, yet I just worry that the old-school taste of D&D art is about to go down the tubes. The comic style is one thing. I don't like it, but can live with it. :surrender The day I see an anime style art in a D&D book will be a sad day indeed. :gah: I think the recent shift is headed that way for marketing purposes :ahem: Well, whilst I do like anime, I certainly wouldn't want that art style to become dominant in mainstream D&D books. But in the case of the comic-book art in the Eberron books, it's not a question of either-or - there's some of the greatest traditional fantasy art in there too, and I think the styles can and do complement each other. If traditional art were dumped from future Eberron books, I'd be the first to protest - but if the comic-style art were removed, I'd be unhappy about that too. I do wonder, however, if D&D art is "just" taste based. For example, few (if any) would agree that South Park style animation captures the feel (though I love "The Order of the Stick!"). I never did get into South Park, largely due to the art style, though the humour isn't to my taste either. But I'll go along with you on OotS - sometimes a deliberately simplistic style can work. I don't think comic-style art could work well in any other D&D setting than Eberron, but on the other hand, I don't think that says anything detrimental about Eberron - the setting has captured a cinematic, action-based style that can be expressed well through comic art. I wonder if WotC would consider a graphic novel line for Eberron fiction? I am in the minority here, I know this :allalone: Just out of curiosity...for those posting to this thread from here on out...how old are you? I ask, not to be rude, but to get a sense of just how out of touch I am with current fantasy art sensibilities. I am 35, and a fan of the old school (even Otus' work) D&D art. Maybe I'm a silly purist :crazy: Well, I'm not sure you're going to find an answer in the generation gap in this case. I'm 33.
Edymnion 11-13-04, 05:14 PM	I'm 23, started playing in 2e, but have books all the way back to OD&D. As for the art, I'm rather glad its moving away from the style they had before. Lots of black and white line art for the most part, that seemed to be more about exaggeration to get a mood across than it was about pose or details. And the omnipresent bare chested girl on a pile of treasure, of course. I'd actually like to see some more anime-esque art in the books, personally. You can knock anime all you like, but you have to agree that it has some of the best expressional ability out there.
Von Ether 11-13-04, 05:38 PM	I'm a fan of Hellboy, a pulpy comic and the panels you talking about are obviously inspired by the same style. Frankly, some of the panel work for me, some don't. The captions that go with the art are pretty spot on for suppling some of the mood, though.
mistakeagian 11-13-04, 07:32 PM	I am 24, and I think the comic style art fit Eberron. I don't think it is particularly noir or pulp, but it is an amalgam. Just like Eberron take those styles, mixes them with fantasy, add classic D&D sensibilities and come out as its own thing. Now, the comic style art wouldn't fit in Forgotten Realms or Krynn. I think that the classic art styles fit those more. I see Eberron as a newer more contemporary D&D, and with that you need to fit all elements of that style to the contemporary styles. Just as people grew out of Realism and on into Abstractism (though not directly) the art for each new setting grows and morphs into something fitting to its, time, target audiance, and style.