Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChrisTheS 11-13-04, 12:51 AM	Reading through the cost guidelines in the Visitor's Guide to Sharn chapter, I'm trying to figure out what sort of cash flow the average person would have, relative to an adventurer... and so far, it seems to indicate that adventurers are filthy rich. My reasoning: Rent runs between 1-4 thrones per month for a poor residence. Assuming lodging to consume about 1/4 of the average low-income worker's wages, that means the low-income wages are somewhere between 100-400 sovereigns a week (less for poverty-line: 30 sp a week can keep a peasant in food, shelter, and basic amenities, but not much else). For middle-class inhabitants, the same reasoning gives a range of between 10-40 thrones a week, so the average resident (at 2000 sovereigns a week, say--accounting for a rough estimate of the tax rate) has 1375 sovereigns a week left after rent, about 1360 after food, and let's say, for the sake of ease, 1300 left after subtracting other miscellaneous necessary expenses. This means an average citizen of Sharn would have a total disposable income of about 600 gp a year, give or take. Now, an adventurer with regular work can make a hundred times as much, if not more, unless the GM is stingy with the treasure. While an average citizen can afford a night out a the theatre pretty much whenever they want, or a good meal out occasionally, they'd have to scrape for a few weeks to afford most House services beyond the basic Orien and Jorasco services. Whereas adventurers can afford most of these things as a matter of course. So... either adventuring is a surefire way to get really rich really quick (assuming you're canny enough to survive it) or I made a mistake in my calculations somewhere. Personally, this is leading me to consider downgrading the standard treasure awards by a currency category (gp --> sp, sp --> cp... copper awards can stay the same, though). Opinions?
GoodTeletubby 11-13-04, 01:42 AM	Adventuring is SUPPOSED to be a way to get rich quick. You've still got to survive it though. People don't make millions by sitting back nice and comfy behind a desk job, they have to take risks to make it big. Adventureres are the high rollers in society, and they gain the benefits of taking the risks they take.
Bluebrush 11-13-04, 05:45 AM	and so far, it seems to indicate that adventurers are filthy rich. It says in the ECS in Life in the World, starting adventurers are at least middle class in terms of money, and that higher level adventurers move amoung the upper class.
Hellcow 11-13-04, 01:37 PM	So... either adventuring is a surefire way to get really rich really quick (assuming you're canny enough to survive it) or I made a mistake in my calculations somewhere. Personally, this is leading me to consider downgrading the standard treasure awards by a currency category (gp --> sp, sp --> cp... copper awards can stay the same, though). Opinions? While I agree with the others that adventuring is supposed to be a way to get rich quick, I think that reducing monetary rewards could certainly make for an interesting campaign, and would be especially well suited to an urban game with a noirish tone; for example, you could decide that your adventuring group are going to be an inquisitive agency, in which case there's no reason you should be making that much more than other inquisitives. This would also make having wealthy patrons more significant, and make even small treasures more relevant. So I think it could be interesting, as long as the style of the campaign fit it. As a note -- since it's now set in stone in City of Towers: The Novel -- the currency of the Five Nations is: Copper: Crown Silver: Sovereign Gold: Galifar Platinum: Dragon
Edymnion 11-13-04, 01:42 PM	As a note -- since it's now set in stone in City of Towers: The Novel -- the currency of the Five Nations is: Copper: Crown Silver: Sovereign Gold: Galifar Platinum: DragonChanged it up a bit, did we?
Hellcow 11-13-04, 02:04 PM	Changed it up a bit, did we? No, actually it's what I ended up with from the previous discussion - check message #66 of this thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=301137&page=3) I'll go ahead and repost it in the Ask Keith thread - I should have done that originally.
debatedeus 11-14-04, 01:28 AM	A guideline that I like using to get a cap on understanding money in DnD generally is to equate 1gp to about $100 USD. It leads to a couple of small holes in the understanding of the game (for example: unskilled, untrained laborers make 1sp a day, where skilled workers make an average of 2gp a week), but helps you and your PCs get an idea of how much money they find and how to understand it.
Feneem 11-14-04, 01:57 AM	Frankly I'd try to stay away from any comparisons between player wealth and average NPC wealth. The need for an exponentially increasing total to balance PCs in a item-oriented system like this one just about garauntees that the numbers aren't going to make any sense.
debatedeus 11-14-04, 11:01 AM	Frankly I'd try to stay away from any comparisons between player wealth and average NPC wealth. The need for an exponentially increasing total to balance PCs in a item-oriented system like this one just about garauntees that the numbers aren't going to make any sense. It's a roleplaying distinction. It's a way for PCs to understand how rich they really are. What do you mean exponentially increasing total? Do you mean the standard wealth at every level? That's clearly a polynomial increase. Could you explain how it doesn't make sense to you?
grimfaery 11-14-04, 12:24 PM	Economics is not a concept in D&D. Yes adventurers should make more than most people. But the fact that they can become rich enough to buy a small kingdom is very unrealistic. To this end I have also made up ways to cut down on the overall cash flow for the parties I run for but without unbalancing the game. I also don’t really understand how magic has become the technology in Eberron when your average person is still unable to afford any of it. Where is the demand for magic? If there is no real demand for a product the how can money be made. If there is no money to be made then why would the houses (I.e. Eberron version of modern corporations) bother making all this magic stuff? Sure there are governments but that only accounts for some of the demand and that certainly wouldn’t be enough demand to make magic more common. And if magic is more common then why isn’t it cheaper in Eberron than other D&D worlds? Just wondering!
debatedeus 11-14-04, 01:12 PM	Economics is not a concept in D&D. Speaking as someone with an Economics background, Economics is a concept in any system where goods and services are exhanged. Yes adventurers should make more than most people. But the fact that they can become rich enough to buy a small kingdom is very unrealistic. It is unrealistic that people run around with magical swords, wands of fireballs, and rings of power; do you cut those out of your game as well? I also don’t really understand how magic has become the technology in Eberron when your average person is still unable to afford any of it. The simple answer is that magic is not the technology of Eberron. That's a distinction that people make often on the boards that is a misinterpretation of something that the folks at WotC say. They say that instead of advancing technology, the people in Eberron advanced magic as a science and found more practical uses for it. There are problems to advancing magic instead of technology. For example, multi-factor productivity (MFP) stays low for a number of reasons. Also, Because magic balances out as a system, more efficient magic is not possible to create because it will always require extremely gifted people to create or operate the most powerful equipment. That said, Eberron has a few advances that make production more efficient; the creation forges used to make Warforged, Schemas and Creation Patterns, and Eldritch Machines are all examples of the Eberron world starting to develope ways to make magic more efficient, and therefore less expensive, and so more accesible. Where is the demand for magic? If there is no real demand for a product the how can money be made. If there is no money to be made then why would the houses (I.e. Eberron version of modern corporations) bother making all this magic stuff? Drop the modern comparisons. Magic is going to be something that only the wealthy can use. It effects everyone's lives, but it isn't as pervasive as technology is for people today. Also, check your economics. First, there is money to be made; just because the Dragonmarked are not serving the unwashed masses of Khorvaire directly doesn't mean that they are not in buisness. If you sell a little bit of a good for a high price, you gross the same amount as you would if you sell a lot of it for a low price. Dragonmarked Houses cannot afford to sell the good at too low of a price because they would not cover costs. Second, the prices that are in the PHB and the ECS represent an equilibrium where Supply and Demand Curves meet. Third, Dragonmarked Houses dominate their associated fields because they can most efficiently produce their goods and services--by keeping their costs low they can charge less than other producers and thus stay in buisness. Consider examples of modern economics to back me up a little. Most people cannot afford to buy an iPod, but Apple has still sold thousands of those (about $400 or 4gp if you use my rule). Most people can only afford to buy a car once every few years, but car companies still sell those ($10,000-30,000, or 100-300gp). Also, think how much money the American Government pays for weapons today. A single Automatic Rifle costs about $3000 USD, a Tank costs on the order of a few million dollars. Still more powerful items cost worlds more. Demand for weapons or transportation is limited to organizations with high power and powerful individuals, like adventurers. Most people will go their entire lives without flying on an Airship. Some people might get magical healing cast on them, even though it costs several gold pieces (and thus about several hundred dollars), but very few people are going to get a meal purified by House Ghalldra. Sure there are governments but that only accounts for some of the demand and that certainly wouldn’t be enough demand to make magic more common. And if magic is more common then why isn’t it cheaper in Eberron than other D&D worlds? Just wondering! Magic is only more common because the creators of Eberron made the realization that magical advances would certainly be used to improve the lives of people who could afford those advances. They realized that other worlds where magic was less pervasive just don't make sense, because rational investors and buisness people would use magic on a large scale to make money in ways that just do not happen in FR or Greyhawk. While it is true that there would be a greater demand for magic items if they were cheaper, at that price, firms (ie: Dragonmarked Houses) would not be able to stay in buisness.
Bluebrush 11-14-04, 06:58 PM	Undoubtedly, magic effects the economy of Khorvaire, even in small hamlets full of farmers who think Mordenkain is a herb grown in Valenar. That Korranberg chronicle you bought yesterday in that large town in Breland? Wouldn't have been so interesting without House Sivis sending stories from across the five nations back to Korranberg for the editor to look at and cross out. Wouldn't have gotten to Breland without House Orien's lightning rail, and wouldn't have got far from the local station without a House Vadalis magebred Horse carrying a house Orien courier, who carries the news in his house Cannith satchel of newspaper holding (Type A) to the newstands of your town. Sure, the Korranberg Chronicle could equip all their reporters with magical communicators and teleport all their issues drect to the newstands, but that would mean the Chronicle would cost a good few platinum. Maybe worth it for the rich nobles to read, but out of the reach of the regular serfs. But, thanks to magic, all that happens in the Five Nations is yours for a mere three copper pieces. And, if you're somewhat closer to the middle class than a guy who shovels pig muck for a living, House Cannith's magewrights can offer you a fine selection of quality products for low prices. Even if you're not, the bar you drink at (if you live in a decent sized small town) might be tended by a magewright who keeps it clean with Prestigiation, freeing up his time to deal with other issues, meaning he doesn't need to employ a janitor, bringing the cost of your glass of ale down. (Or increasing his profits if he's the only magewright bartender in town.)
ChrisTheS 11-18-04, 12:45 AM	In general terms, I don't have a problem with PCs getting rich quick. I don't even have a problem with them getting super-rich quick. It's expected that eventually they're going to be hobnobbing with the highest in the land anyway (sometimes literally, especially in Sharn). What I have a problem with is PCs getting rich enough to buy the entire Brelish aristocracy in practically no time at all. I used 'filthy rich' for a reason. The average adventurer could easily outstrip the Carnegies and Rockefellers of Khorvaire in no time. And most players wouldn't even think in those terms. We look at 100g and think it a pittance, but to the social class that adventurers in other settings would normally occupy, that's two months' wages. So what are PCs doing hanging out in seedy bars to get their next adventure tips, when they could be hiring underlings to go sit in the seedy bars for them, and not have to worry about being randomly attacked by warforged fanatics? Why do they have to steal invitations to ambassadorial masques? Why are they walking around like normal people in slums that they can afford to buy, houses and inhabitants both? In short, why are they not behaving like the nouveau-riche that they are? With this sort of economy, adventurers should be pulling a Lamont Cranston--going out on a crawl or two, then coming back and living the high life for the rest of the year. And yet, many adventurers don't have any permanent residence... isn't that odd? I kind of want to play with this idea now... I'll probably still end up cutting treasure awards, but only in half (rather than factoring it down by 10). I'd like to minimize the ability to buy nations while still giving the opportunity to interact extensively with high society. --- The other thing that gets to me is that a middle-class person can afford to go out to eat for every meal and go to the theatre every day and not feel a substantial dent in their pocketbook. Those costs should really be doubled or tripled...
Brastan 11-18-04, 02:53 AM	And that doesn't happen in Middle and Upper middle class United States House holds? The way to bring that down is insurance payments, tithes to the Church(s), taxes, and other things of a similar nature. For adventures money, hit them with taxes and transaction fees. What makes most adventures stick to the lower class areas is paranoia. Its assumed that people with money (other than the PCs) are out to get them in some way. Also they get the same nights rest in a low class establishment as an upper-class one so why spend more money? Also hiring minions is iffy. There not under the adventures control so they might double cross them. Its all about paranoia. That and saving for that super magic time that will make their lives much easier. Many adventures do retire after that short time period. How do you think a town/district gets a middle level wizard or cleric. Its really only the PCs that don't stop. Their goal goes beyond money (sometimes) to just adventuring for adventuring's sake
debatedeus 11-18-04, 03:22 AM	I used 'filthy rich' for a reason. The average adventurer could easily outstrip the Carnegies and Rockefellers of Khorvaire in no time. And most players wouldn't even think in those terms. We look at 100g and think it a pittance, but to the social class that adventurers in other settings would normally occupy, that's two months' wages. Remember that in other settings, that even though there is a prevalence of high level characters, the common man still makes very little money. Just because this adventurer caste is larger in Greyhawk or FR does not mean that adventurers are any less stinkin' filthy rich. So what are PCs doing hanging out in seedy bars to get their next adventure tips, when they could be hiring underlings to go sit in the seedy bars for them, and not have to worry about being randomly attacked by warforged fanatics? Why do they have to steal invitations to ambassadorial masques? Why are they walking around like normal people in slums that they can afford to buy, houses and inhabitants both? In short, why are they not behaving like the nouveau-riche that they are? I look at things differently. First, the PCs get the really juicy adventure tips because of personal relationships with their stool pigeons. Second, PCs don't just hang out in bars to get all of their adventure tips. Third, it makes for interesting story for them to be attacked sometimes in the bar, or make them think up a way to get into a fancy ball. WotVB does not preclude adventures from bribing or talking their way in, does it? Fourth, people in Eberron are not crazy or stupid. If you see a legendary adventurer (as most level 12 people are) in front of you, and you attack them, you are insane. Fifth, the PCs are different than average people, and that means transcending the bonds and bounds of class. If they started in the streets, maybe the PC feels a special connection to the streets and will still walk. Sixth, I think that PCs don't act like New Money mostly because Players do not think about it that way. I think that some of them definitely should. With this sort of economy, adventurers should be pulling a Lamont Cranston--going out on a crawl or two, then coming back and living the high life for the rest of the year. And yet, many adventurers don't have any permanent residence... isn't that odd? Both of these are functions of the DM who runs the game, and are exogenous to the rules. In my games both of these are considered. One, adventurers keep pushing on because they are adventuring for a reason. Two, during down time adventurers have the option of maintaining a Day job. Three, most adventurers can afford to travel with all of their meaningful belongings and stay in the most expensive rooms in hotels, etc. I kind of want to play with this idea now... I'll probably still end up cutting treasure awards, but only in half (rather than factoring it down by 10). I'd like to minimize the ability to buy nations while still giving the opportunity to interact extensively with high society. Be careful not to underpower your PCs by denying them items they should have. In my game, PCs could never buy nations because they are using their wealth to become more powerful to take on bigger and badder things to accomplish their long run goals. The other thing that gets to me is that a middle-class person can afford to go out to eat for every meal and go to the theatre every day and not feel a substantial dent in their pocketbook. Those costs should really be doubled or tripled... What else is there to do for someone in the "Middle Class"? Think about how much of your money you spend on entertainment. It probably comes out to be about the same percent as the Middle Class people who go to the theatre.
ChrisTheS 11-19-04, 12:48 AM	I never said it wasn't a problem in other settings--only that I hadn't noticed it before now. Admittedly, in the FR game I've been playing in, our supply of cash has been kept down by the fact that the monk donates most of the treasure we get to charity before we can divvy it up... It is sort of a moot point for the games I run, because I never run dungeon crawls and thus never use the treasure tables... But anyway--in other settings, it isn't quite so much of an issue because they're firmly rooted in the medieval social systems by which social rank is a factor of birth, not economic clout. It doesn't matter whether the PCs amass enough gold to buy a kingdom--they're still (probably) commoners. In Eberron, society is more reminiscent of the early Victorian period; consequently, wealth means more to rank than lineage does. Certainly, new money is considered much less respectable than old money, but the point remains--if the PCs are amassing this much wealth, even if they're spending it all on magic items, they would still be viewed as rich by society. Whether or not it's something that players and GMs DO think about, it's something that they SHOULD think about.
Brasidas 11-19-04, 04:26 AM	...if the PCs are amassing this much wealth, even if they're spending it all on magic items, they would still be viewed as rich by society. Whether or not it's something that players and GMs DO think about, it's something that they SHOULD think about. And if even relatively small numbers of PCs are able to amass great wealth, that should lead to a much larger supply of adventurers. Even if NPCs aren't generally as capable overall, they could still acquire a lesser degree of wealth by adventuring in larger groups, and possibly forming Adventuring Corporations. Heck, the Aristocrat isn't such a bad class, you'd think all those second and third sons/daughters who don't stand to directly inherit would be out trying to gather up all that extra gold & experience.
nyysjan 11-19-04, 04:48 AM	I never said it wasn't a problem in other settings--only that I hadn't noticed it before now. Admittedly, in the FR game I've been playing in, our supply of cash has been kept down by the fact that the monk donates most of the treasure we get to charity before we can divvy it up... It is sort of a moot point for the games I run, because I never run dungeon crawls and thus never use the treasure tables... But anyway--in other settings, it isn't quite so much of an issue because they're firmly rooted in the medieval social systems by which social rank is a factor of birth, not economic clout. It doesn't matter whether the PCs amass enough gold to buy a kingdom--they're still (probably) commoners. In Eberron, society is more reminiscent of the early Victorian period; consequently, wealth means more to rank than lineage does. Certainly, new money is considered much less respectable than old money, but the point remains--if the PCs are amassing this much wealth, even if they're spending it all on magic items, they would still be viewed as rich by society. Whether or not it's something that players and GMs DO think about, it's something that they SHOULD think about. it is my understanding and it may be wrong that in feudal society could buy "rank" with money if you were discreet enough even if this rank usually might come with a wife attached or land or other side effects
ChronosCrow 11-19-04, 08:31 AM	You're exactly right about thinking adv. are stincking rich. Those boys rack up the money and fast sometimes. It's all due to the fact that it's a lucrative field, much like trying to be a professional musician or a lone shark. Also, the average life span of an adventurere is not a long one. Play these factors up in your games and things seem very realistic.
billseurer 11-19-04, 08:39 AM	Note that here on real live Earth it used to be that adventurers could get stinking rich really quickly too. If you were lucky and found some gems off in a corner of India you could head back to England and buy your way into the aristocracy. After a couple of generations no one would remember that granddad was a poor soldier any more.
nyysjan 11-19-04, 08:48 AM	has it been into consideration in the living expenses that by DMG normal untrained commoner gets paid 1sp/day so even if they work every day of the week they can make the maximum of 28sp/month so how do you get by in the city with that. The DMG seems to assume that people are largely self sufficient by raising livestock and farming or by hunting but that won't work in a metropolis like Sharn
Sarlax 11-19-04, 05:12 PM	has it been into consideration in the living expenses that by DMG normal untrained commoner gets paid 1sp/day so even if they work every day of the week they can make the maximum of 28sp/month so how do you get by in the city with that. Sharn notes that renting a poor-quality residence costs 1d4 gp per month. That'll work out to an average of 25 sp. So a single commoner can barely scrape by with 3 sp per month. On average. Of course, this means a lot of people will live in groups. Most college-age people will acknowledge that "having your own place" is a luxury. In Sharn, many people will live with their families, be married, have roommates, etc. If at least two people are working, then housing becomes more affordable. That 28 sp doubles to 56. Less the cost of housing, there's 31 sp to spend. That's enough to cover really cheap food. Add in a live-in brother, teenage workers, etc., and you've got an affordable lifestyle. I'd guess that Sharn laborers earn a bit more. This is a city with a lot of money, and some of it will trickle down a bit to the extent that commoners can survive. Living in Sharn costs more, so you earn more.
debatedeus 11-19-04, 09:55 PM	Being an untrained commoner is pretty rare. Many commoners learn a trade from their parents, and they apply that trade to their day to day. I mean, they get skill ranks in something right? Also, Sharn has a relatively high cost of living. It's like New York City compared to 'burbs; prices are high and the cost of living is outrageous.
nyysjan 11-20-04, 04:47 PM	on other note im making a house Kundarak dragonmarked character and i'd like to emphasize the fact that he is an member of a rich and powerful family and one of my ways of doing this is having a servant an DMG lists valets/lackeys wage to be 2sp/day but not wery forthcoming in other details so 1. any other expenses on having a valet/lackey 2. a valet expert or commoner and what skills 3. dwarf or human 4. should i pay him/her more note that my character is travelling all ower Khorvaire at this point and while im planning on getting an base of operations later i don't have one now