Concerning Dragonmarks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concerning Dragonmarks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Torgrim
05-10-05, 11:52 PM This has to do with dragonmarks and half-elves.

On page 16 of the ECS it says, "Since the union of elves and humans sometimes produces half-elves that are not part of the true-breeding race, a small number of half-elves can be found among the human- and elf-contolled dragonmarked houses."

So can a half-elf be a dragonmarked member of House Thuranni? It makes sense to me that the character could bear the mark. His dad was and elf and the mark appeared on the son? I have been told that this will not work. If not it will cause a bit of a problem since one of the players in my game is playing a half-elf with the mark of Shadow. He hasn't used the power associated with the mark yet. If this is against the rules should I pull the feat from the character and have him select something else? He is only first level so I don't forsee it being a huge problem.
Euangelion
05-11-05, 12:01 AM While the half-elf child of a Thuranni elf would be a member of the family by blood and could become quite active in its affairs, according to standard Eberron rules regarding dragonmarks the half-elf in question would never manifest the Mark of Shadow (though it would be possible to manifest an aberrant dragonmark).
That said, it's your game, so you make the final call on the matter.
timothyx
05-11-05, 12:18 AM With the new Novel, the basic problem here is that it basically trashes the rule.. perhaps bending it is more correct..

I would have to say.. that if a normal Human and House Thuranni Elf mated, that Half Elf child could have posibility of manifesting the Mark of Shadows. However, if that half elf mated with another human or half elf, that child would not.. but if said half elf mated with another Elf, then yes, it's possible imo...

I'd say go with 1st generation, the blood is still potent enough, diluted by a 2nd generation of the incorrect Dragonmarked House (ie, human, half elf etc) their blood wouldn't be potent enough...

The mark is still in the genetic memory, so it's possible that say, that 15 generations later a half elf descendant of the original half elf to bear the mark of shadows mated with a pure blood elf (an unmarked Heir of Thuranni, even more so), then there would be a slim chance that child could surface with the mark of shadow. However, a second generation would not, nor would any afterwards unless there were more Elfblooded..

Basically, look at it, as it's the Elven blood that powers the mark, and it needs to be potent enough to allow the mark to surface. It's entirely possible that your Half Elf, is more elf than human.

Eventually however, I would have to say, that even after that first Half Elf manifested the Mark.. no generational descendant could ever manifest it again, except through perhaps an Artifact or monolithic magic event.

my two cents...

While the half-elf child of a Thuranni elf would be a member of the family by blood and could become quite active in its affairs, according to standard Eberron rules regarding dragonmarks the half-elf in question would never manifest the Mark of Shadow (though it would be possible to manifest an aberrant dragonmark).
That said, it's your game, so you make the final call on the matter.
Tanvalis
05-11-05, 12:59 AM This has been discussed before, and I know that the search thingie is broken. So, a half-elf can be found in both of the elven houses, might even be able to take the favored in house feat, but they cannot manifest a the mark of shadows. Else it would say that Half-Elves could in the ECS. Just as it says that both, humans and half-orcs can manifest the mark of finding. If that weren't the case then half-elves would then be able to carry ANY mark allowed by humans, elves, or the half-elf ones. And that simply makes no sense nor is it allowed. SO, while a half-elf can be a member of any of the human or elven houses they cannot manifest one of those marks.
timothyx
05-11-05, 03:16 AM This has been discussed before, and I know that the search thingie is broken. So, a half-elf can be found in both of the elven houses, might even be able to take the favored in house feat, but they cannot manifest a the mark of shadows. Else it would say that Half-Elves could in the ECS. Just as it says that both, humans and half-orcs can manifest the mark of finding. If that weren't the case then half-elves would then be able to carry ANY mark allowed by humans, elves, or the half-elf ones. And that simply makes no sense nor is it allowed. SO, while a half-elf can be a member of any of the human or elven houses they cannot manifest one of those marks.

Oh I totally agree, but the new Eberron Novel, Crimson Talisman, has a half elf with the Mark of Passage... artistic license and all I suppose.. which is where my post was going..

RAW, I wouldn't allow it all... on the other hand, I am the one who came up with the RAW Changeling with a Human Raced Dragonmark...
TranquilDarkness
05-11-05, 04:13 AM Not to start a discussion on the Talisman-novel... but I'm keeping everything in that book far, far away from my Eberron. Too much of a Forgotten Realms style writing, that. :embarrass

As said; official anser is 'nope, can't be done' - but the DM can always do what he thinks will fit best.
Just another user
05-11-05, 04:34 AM dragonmarks <> genetics
dragonmarks = magic
Kid SixXx
05-11-05, 07:43 AM dragonmarks <> genetics
dragonmarks = magic

Couldn't have said it simpler or better myself. If it doesn't jive with the prophecy, it shouldn't happen.

Race is only a factor in dragonmarks because the prophecy dictates whom gets what, not because mortals manifest them naturally.

With the new Novel, the basic problem here is that it basically trashes the rule.. perhaps bending it is more correct..

If this were the FR boards where people are forced to accept the notion that anything with the FR logo (even the computer games, for cryin' out loud..) is part of the FR SACRED TEXT, then I'd say you had a point.

Since this is Eberron, where even Keith Baker says that his suggestions beyond the ECS are only suggestions and not RAW, then I have to conclude that the events in the novel don't affect the ECS RAW one iota.

The novel doesn't bend or trash the rules, it contradicts them, so if I don't wanna acknowledge the seeming faux pas from the novel IMC, then I won't, provided that the events of CT aren't eventually made into revisionist history RAW.

That naturally leaves everyone else free & clear to do what they wish in their own campaigns.

The contradiction also doesn't necessarily mean that Crimson Talisman is a bad book. I've enjoyed what I've read of it so far.
Gurv
05-11-05, 11:16 AM Precisely. If you want a half-elf with a human or elven dragonmark, then that is up to the DM. By the RAW, you must be of both the appropriate house and the appropriate race to have a particular dragonmark, not merely one or the other.

Anything else should be recognized as an acception to the rule, an exception that should have meaning and focus attached to it. There is a reason that the dragonmarks work as they do, and one of the greatest mysteries on Eberron is what that reason is. It has something to do with the Draconic Prophecy, you can be sure of that, but what does it all mean? And having the mark of one race appear on the body of another race is not something that should be casually overlooked; it is a huge, attention-getting, dragon-attracting, scholar-confusing, House-angering, nation-destabiling event.

As far as the genetics of the matter goes...well, it simply isn't genetics. Dragonmarks are passed on from parent to child, yes. But they are passed on by magic, and only to a child of the appropriate race, and only sometimes. Forget genetics...it barely makes any sense that the races can breed at all.
Tanvalis
05-11-05, 02:55 PM I was unaware that the book was out! Hrm... gonna have to go get it now then. Thanks! As for the actual question... seems answered to me! :)
timothyx
05-11-05, 03:15 PM I was unaware that the book was out! Hrm... gonna have to go get it now then. Thanks! As for the actual question... seems answered to me! :)

Oh, I mean for sure. The answer is quite clear. No one may possess any mark if you're not the appropriate race and/or house, thats right in the rules.

If you go by the Eberron core books (and not the silly Races of Eberron, except the parts written by Keith) as canon, thats the straight and simple answer, by the RAW...

but, as always, it's up to the DM. Personally, I might allow for it, but there'd better be one hell of a backstory to it...
Euangelion
05-11-05, 03:23 PM It would make much more sense for the person with the mark being the human child of a human dragonmarked father and a half-elf mother who is the daughter of a human and an elf. Gives you the proper race but retaining a family connection to the elves. To strengthen the bond to the dragonmarked house the mother's human parent could also be a distant member of the same dragonmarked house. It's still a bit of a stretch. Just my :twocents:

Edit: Of course that only counts for human dragonmarked houses. The same sort of thing could be done with a half-elf house as well. But the others wouldn't work. The key to making it even plausible is that the child inherits the race of the parent with the dragonmark. No "dragonmarked human who bears a half-elf who bears a human who then manifests their grandfather's mark" deal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Torgrim 05-10-05, 11:52 PM	This has to do with dragonmarks and half-elves. On page 16 of the ECS it says, "Since the union of elves and humans sometimes produces half-elves that are not part of the true-breeding race, a small number of half-elves can be found among the human- and elf-contolled dragonmarked houses." So can a half-elf be a dragonmarked member of House Thuranni? It makes sense to me that the character could bear the mark. His dad was and elf and the mark appeared on the son? I have been told that this will not work. If not it will cause a bit of a problem since one of the players in my game is playing a half-elf with the mark of Shadow. He hasn't used the power associated with the mark yet. If this is against the rules should I pull the feat from the character and have him select something else? He is only first level so I don't forsee it being a huge problem.
Euangelion 05-11-05, 12:01 AM	While the half-elf child of a Thuranni elf would be a member of the family by blood and could become quite active in its affairs, according to standard Eberron rules regarding dragonmarks the half-elf in question would never manifest the Mark of Shadow (though it would be possible to manifest an aberrant dragonmark). That said, it's your game, so you make the final call on the matter.
timothyx 05-11-05, 12:18 AM	With the new Novel, the basic problem here is that it basically trashes the rule.. perhaps bending it is more correct.. I would have to say.. that if a normal Human and House Thuranni Elf mated, that Half Elf child could have posibility of manifesting the Mark of Shadows. However, if that half elf mated with another human or half elf, that child would not.. but if said half elf mated with another Elf, then yes, it's possible imo... I'd say go with 1st generation, the blood is still potent enough, diluted by a 2nd generation of the incorrect Dragonmarked House (ie, human, half elf etc) their blood wouldn't be potent enough... The mark is still in the genetic memory, so it's possible that say, that 15 generations later a half elf descendant of the original half elf to bear the mark of shadows mated with a pure blood elf (an unmarked Heir of Thuranni, even more so), then there would be a slim chance that child could surface with the mark of shadow. However, a second generation would not, nor would any afterwards unless there were more Elfblooded.. Basically, look at it, as it's the Elven blood that powers the mark, and it needs to be potent enough to allow the mark to surface. It's entirely possible that your Half Elf, is more elf than human. Eventually however, I would have to say, that even after that first Half Elf manifested the Mark.. no generational descendant could ever manifest it again, except through perhaps an Artifact or monolithic magic event. my two cents... While the half-elf child of a Thuranni elf would be a member of the family by blood and could become quite active in its affairs, according to standard Eberron rules regarding dragonmarks the half-elf in question would never manifest the Mark of Shadow (though it would be possible to manifest an aberrant dragonmark). That said, it's your game, so you make the final call on the matter.
Tanvalis 05-11-05, 12:59 AM	This has been discussed before, and I know that the search thingie is broken. So, a half-elf can be found in both of the elven houses, might even be able to take the favored in house feat, but they cannot manifest a the mark of shadows. Else it would say that Half-Elves could in the ECS. Just as it says that both, humans and half-orcs can manifest the mark of finding. If that weren't the case then half-elves would then be able to carry ANY mark allowed by humans, elves, or the half-elf ones. And that simply makes no sense nor is it allowed. SO, while a half-elf can be a member of any of the human or elven houses they cannot manifest one of those marks.
timothyx 05-11-05, 03:16 AM	This has been discussed before, and I know that the search thingie is broken. So, a half-elf can be found in both of the elven houses, might even be able to take the favored in house feat, but they cannot manifest a the mark of shadows. Else it would say that Half-Elves could in the ECS. Just as it says that both, humans and half-orcs can manifest the mark of finding. If that weren't the case then half-elves would then be able to carry ANY mark allowed by humans, elves, or the half-elf ones. And that simply makes no sense nor is it allowed. SO, while a half-elf can be a member of any of the human or elven houses they cannot manifest one of those marks. Oh I totally agree, but the new Eberron Novel, Crimson Talisman, has a half elf with the Mark of Passage... artistic license and all I suppose.. which is where my post was going.. RAW, I wouldn't allow it all... on the other hand, I am the one who came up with the RAW Changeling with a Human Raced Dragonmark...
TranquilDarkness 05-11-05, 04:13 AM	Not to start a discussion on the Talisman-novel... but I'm keeping everything in that book far, far away from my Eberron. Too much of a Forgotten Realms style writing, that. :embarrass As said; official anser is 'nope, can't be done' - but the DM can always do what he thinks will fit best.
Just another user 05-11-05, 04:34 AM	dragonmarks <> genetics dragonmarks = magic
Kid SixXx 05-11-05, 07:43 AM	dragonmarks <> genetics dragonmarks = magic Couldn't have said it simpler or better myself. If it doesn't jive with the prophecy, it shouldn't happen. Race is only a factor in dragonmarks because the prophecy dictates whom gets what, not because mortals manifest them naturally. With the new Novel, the basic problem here is that it basically trashes the rule.. perhaps bending it is more correct.. If this were the FR boards where people are forced to accept the notion that anything with the FR logo (even the computer games, for cryin' out loud..) is part of the FR SACRED TEXT, then I'd say you had a point. Since this is Eberron, where even Keith Baker says that his suggestions beyond the ECS are only suggestions and not RAW, then I have to conclude that the events in the novel don't affect the ECS RAW one iota. The novel doesn't bend or trash the rules, it contradicts them, so if I don't wanna acknowledge the seeming faux pas from the novel IMC, then I won't, provided that the events of CT aren't eventually made into revisionist history RAW. That naturally leaves everyone else free & clear to do what they wish in their own campaigns. The contradiction also doesn't necessarily mean that Crimson Talisman is a bad book. I've enjoyed what I've read of it so far.
Gurv 05-11-05, 11:16 AM	Precisely. If you want a half-elf with a human or elven dragonmark, then that is up to the DM. By the RAW, you must be of both the appropriate house and the appropriate race to have a particular dragonmark, not merely one or the other. Anything else should be recognized as an acception to the rule, an exception that should have meaning and focus attached to it. There is a reason that the dragonmarks work as they do, and one of the greatest mysteries on Eberron is what that reason is. It has something to do with the Draconic Prophecy, you can be sure of that, but what does it all mean? And having the mark of one race appear on the body of another race is not something that should be casually overlooked; it is a huge, attention-getting, dragon-attracting, scholar-confusing, House-angering, nation-destabiling event. As far as the genetics of the matter goes...well, it simply isn't genetics. Dragonmarks are passed on from parent to child, yes. But they are passed on by magic, and only to a child of the appropriate race, and only sometimes. Forget genetics...it barely makes any sense that the races can breed at all.
Tanvalis 05-11-05, 02:55 PM	I was unaware that the book was out! Hrm... gonna have to go get it now then. Thanks! As for the actual question... seems answered to me! :)
timothyx 05-11-05, 03:15 PM	I was unaware that the book was out! Hrm... gonna have to go get it now then. Thanks! As for the actual question... seems answered to me! :) Oh, I mean for sure. The answer is quite clear. No one may possess any mark if you're not the appropriate race and/or house, thats right in the rules. If you go by the Eberron core books (and not the silly Races of Eberron, except the parts written by Keith) as canon, thats the straight and simple answer, by the RAW... but, as always, it's up to the DM. Personally, I might allow for it, but there'd better be one hell of a backstory to it...
Euangelion 05-11-05, 03:23 PM	It would make much more sense for the person with the mark being the human child of a human dragonmarked father and a half-elf mother who is the daughter of a human and an elf. Gives you the proper race but retaining a family connection to the elves. To strengthen the bond to the dragonmarked house the mother's human parent could also be a distant member of the same dragonmarked house. It's still a bit of a stretch. Just my :twocents: Edit: Of course that only counts for human dragonmarked houses. The same sort of thing could be done with a half-elf house as well. But the others wouldn't work. The key to making it even plausible is that the child inherits the race of the parent with the dragonmark. No "dragonmarked human who bears a half-elf who bears a human who then manifests their grandfather's mark" deal.