Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WayneTheGame 09-16-05, 07:19 AM	Okay I have a quick question that's bothering me.. to have a dragonmark, you need to be a BLOOD member of a dragonmarked house, right? So this would mean that members of the same house who both have a dragonmark (except aberrant, of course) are cousins or somehow related? Second, if thats NOT the case, then could you be a member of a dragonmarked race, and develop a dragonmark related to a house for that race? i.e. could you be an elf from Aerenal (actually FROM aerenal itself) and develop the Mark of Shadow? Sorry if these are silly questions :)
The White Sorcerer 09-16-05, 07:26 AM	i.e. could you be an elf from Aerenal (actually FROM aerenal itself) and develop the Mark of Shadow?) Sure. One might not be a member of the House, but one can still be related to them. It happens.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-16-05, 07:35 AM	An Aereni could develop the Mark of Shadow, but he would be a direct decendant of one of the original members of House Phiarlan. That fact may have been forgotten however, and his recent ancestors may not have manifested a mark. These people are known as 'foundlings.'
Save-vs-DM 09-16-05, 07:36 AM	Okay I have a quick question that's bothering me.. to have a dragonmark, you need to be a BLOOD member of a dragonmarked house, right? So this would mean that members of the same house who both have a dragonmark (except aberrant, of course) are cousins or somehow related? Not quite in every circumstance. If you are a member of a family that has strong ties to a mark, your chance of manifesting one might be better. But anamolies exist. At the very basic level, dragonmarks are magical things that follow their own rules. Most dragonmarked members arn't all that related. In fact, they encourage marrying other marked memebrs, as this increases the chance of a marked child. I think the phrase related by blood is more metaphoric than literal in this instance. Second, if thats NOT the case, then could you be a member of a dragonmarked race, and develop a dragonmark related to a house for that race? i.e. could you be an elf from Aerenal (actually FROM aerenal itself) and develop the Mark of Shadow? Sure. That's not a problem. The marks really don't care where you're from, so long as you fit the racial profile. Cheers! Save vs DM
Pharun 09-16-05, 08:05 AM	I agree with what Save said. With more dragonmarked blood you have a much better chance of manifesting the mark. But even people who have a very small amount of the blood, maybe there grandfather was from House of Shadows. Then there is still a chance that they can manifest a mark, its just much smaller then an elf whos parents were both hiers of the mark.
ussie 09-17-05, 01:16 AM	pretty much what everyone else is saying, all u need is a drop of blood and u have a chance of developing a dragonmark. So lets say, your great grandmother was an illegitimate child of House Deneth. She married some Cyrian peasant, who when war began migrated to Qbarra, and you moved to The Principalities, so youve gone pretty far from the family and you dont have the name and you probably are the poorer relative if even considered that (random obscure cousins could be forgotten) and next thing u know u have a Dragonmark and your last name is Smith. u get where im driving at, you can have a completly different family history for a couple of generations as long as somewhere along the line your ancestor was a direct blood relative to a proper House or markbearer. Tho your last name might be Smith, your kid could develop the mark as well.
Straylight 09-17-05, 05:33 AM	In addition to everything else mentioned here, I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that some scholars think that about 1 in 100 people in Khorvaire have some sort of blood relation (even if several generations removed) to one of the Dragonmarked houses. That makes the presence of foundlings and other anomalies perfectly acceptable. However, with the nature of PCs in Eberron, having one manifest a mark even though he has no ties with the house and no known blood relation to it is not, I would imagine, an uncommon thing with PCs. (City of Towers and Binding Stone spoilers ahead)After all, we already have one foundling Jorasco, an excoriate Cannith and two disaffected (albeit unmarked) Deneith in the novels, so, well, why break tradition?
Kid SixXx 09-18-05, 08:03 AM	However, with the nature of PCs in Eberron, having one manifest a mark even though he has no ties with the house and no known blood relation to it is not, I would imagine, an uncommon thing with PCs. (City of Towers and Binding Stone spoilers ahead)After all, we already have one foundling Jorasco, an excoriate Cannith and two disaffected (albeit unmarked) Deneith in the novels, so, well, why break tradition? Well, to be honest the novels aren't the best place to go for precedents concerning Dragonmarks. After all, we do have that little matter of the Half-Elf with the Mark of Passage in The Crimson Talisman. As to the premise of foundlings, they are perfectly acceptable and are no more far-fetched an anomoly than a person with an Aberrant Dragonmark.
MysticTheurge 09-18-05, 09:39 AM	Well, to be honest the novels aren't the best place to go for precedents concerning Dragonmarks. After all, we do have that little matter of the Half-Elf with the Mark of Passage in The Crimson Talisman. Vol technically shouldn't have ever had a mark either. DMs of course can do whatever they want, but to have a firm claim to stand on if you're trying to play a Dragonmarked character, you're going to want to stick with the appropriate race.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-18-05, 09:55 AM	Vol technically shouldn't have ever had a mark either. Ah, an unsafe assumption. Since we have no rules for the Mark of Death, that Dragonmark may be able to be inherited by elves and half-dragon elves, as the Mark of Finding is spread across two races.
MysticTheurge 09-18-05, 10:23 AM	Ah, an unsafe assumption. Since we have no rules for the Mark of Death, that Dragonmark may be able to be inherited by elves and half-dragon elves, as the Mark of Finding is spread across two races. Oh alright. But she definitely shouldn't have been able to become a lich. ;)
Gurv 09-18-05, 10:33 AM	Ah, an unsafe assumption. Since we have no rules for the Mark of Death, that Dragonmark may be able to be inherited by elves and half-dragon elves, as the Mark of Finding is spread across two races. Or to make it even simpler, by elves and dragons, two races just as the Mark of Finding. I like to think, and this is how it is in my campaign, that half-dragons can inherit any dragonmark from their non-draconic parent. Because dragons are the direct creation of the Progenitors who created the Prophecy, their blood is neutral in matters such as dragonmarks, and therefore does not count when determining who may have one. Of course, given this close relationship with the Prophecy, there is an obvious conflict of interest when they involve themselves (as the Chamber sometimes does); actually becoming such an intricately bound part of its unfolding is dangerous in the extreme. This is entirely my opinion, and how I use it in my game, not something official nor is it Keith Baker's word on the subject. But to answer the OP question: yes, most members of the dragonmarked houses are somehow related. But that doesn't mean you're marrying your cousin or anything; the Houses keep close track of lineage for exactly those reasons. When the dragonmarks first appeared, they appeared on a small number of related people. Those people had children with unmarked people, producing some more mark individuals, who likewise spread the blood. Eventually, all those cousins become so distantly related that marriage between them would be perfectly fine, even by modern standards.
KP91 09-18-05, 11:21 AM	Well, to be honest the novels aren't the best place to go for precedents concerning Dragonmarks. After all, we do have that little matter of the Half-Elf with the Mark of Passage in The Crimson Talisman. As to the premise of foundlings, they are perfectly acceptable and are no more far-fetched an anomoly than a person with an Aberrant Dragonmark. For the last time. Under Half-Elves dragonmarks in the ECS. Half-Elves can have any dragonmark a human or elf can have. Doesn't anyone read it! :rant:
Twiggly the Gnome 09-18-05, 11:58 AM	For the last time. Under Half-Elves dragonmarks in the ECS. Half-Elves can have any dragonmark a human or elf can have. Doesn't anyone read it! :rant: Not true. The table in the section describing true dragonmarks makes clear which race may bear which mark. Half-elves may only bear the marks of detection and storm. The only true dragonmark that can be found on more than one of the standard races is the mark of finding, which both humans and half-orcs may bear. Half-elves can be members of a human house, but can not bear its' mark.
Majorafire77 09-18-05, 12:46 PM	Not true. The table in the section describing true dragonmarks makes clear which race may bear which mark. Half-elves may only bear the marks of detection and storm. The only true dragonmark that can be found on more than one of the standard races is the mark of finding, which both humans and half-orcs may bear. Half-elves can be members of a human house, but can not bear its' mark. Correct. Whether a member of a race can get a dragonmark is not due to biology, it's due to what actual race that person is a member of. Half-Elves cannot get any human or elf marks. I don't care if you have the Human Heritage feat or whatever, you're not getting a human or elf dragonmark unless you're a tenth level Cataclysm Mage. Changelings cannot get any dragonmarks unless they have ten levels in Cataclysm Mage. Dragonmarks don't care about subtypes, they care about what race you are. Half-elf =/= Human and/or Elf. The ONLY way to get around dragonmark race restrictions is by getting 10 levels in Cataclysm Mage. Period.
The White Sorcerer 09-18-05, 02:33 PM	For the last time. Under Half-Elves dragonmarks in the ECS. Half-Elves can have any dragonmark a human or elf can have. Doesn't anyone read it! :rant: For the last time. Under Half-Elves dragonmarks in the ECS. Half-Elves can be members of any house a human or elf can be a member of. Doesn't anyone read it! :rant: In short, the text you're referring to doesn't say they can have the dragonmarks.
zambuka 09-18-05, 08:48 PM	Oh alright. But she definitely shouldn't have been able to become a lich. ;) She didn't choose to become a lich, she was made a lich by her mother. But to the original topic. The marked members of a house would be blood relations, albeit quite a few generations removed. The Houses keep very accurate records of births, deaths and marriages (with the help of house Sivis) in order to track their members. If you go back far enough you see the relations within the houses a lot clearer. The elves are from a limited gene pool of refugees from the shattered continent of Xen'Drik, a few clans at most so the families were closely related way way back then. The dwarven mark rose from a limited pool of settlers from Frostfel (or whatever it is called). These original settlers were probably from only 2 or 3 related clans (or 13 families to go with the spirit of the setting). The Human houses are also from a limited pool of refugees and settlers as well. They probably had similar clan groups come over in various waves with different settler groups going to different parts of Khorvaire, there would be quite a bit of inbreading before the settlements were big enough to form nations. Basically, because of circumstance, all the dragon marked houses come from races with very limited original gene pools.
CravesLove 09-19-05, 12:43 AM	For the last time. Under Half-Elves dragonmarks in the ECS. Half-Elves can be members of any house a human or elf can be a member of. Doesn't anyone read it! :rant: In short, the text you're referring to doesn't say they can have the dragonmarks. Ok, I'm under the impresion that I read somewhere that Dragonmarks are racialy limited, but aside from Changelings and Shifters and Warfarged not being able to have Dragonmarks, the only passages I've found limit Dragonmarks by House and blood. Can anyone point me to a passage that says otherwise, or at least more explicitly? Or did I just read too much into seeing races that were barred from Dragonmarks? Fitz
Lina_Inverse 09-19-05, 01:14 AM	Ok, I'm under the impresion that I read somewhere that Dragonmarks are racialy limited, but aside from Changelings and Shifters and Warfarged not being able to have Dragonmarks, the only passages I've found limit Dragonmarks by House and blood. Can anyone point me to a passage that says otherwise, or at least more explicitly? Or did I just read too much into seeing races that were barred from Dragonmarks? Fitz Under dragon mark prerequisite:Blank Race there ya go. reincarnate nulls the feat,lich template nulls the feat. etc.
CravesLove 09-19-05, 02:29 AM	Under dragon mark prerequisite:Blank Race there ya go. ..... Ok, the prereq is: "Member of appropriate dragonmarked race and house." This, combined with the the Half-Elf race descrip, subheading Dragonmarks: "A small number of half-elves can be found among the human- and elf-controlled dragonmarked houses." seems to indicate Half-Elves can indeed take any Elf, Half-Elf, or Human dragonmark. I don't like this, but given that its found in the Dragonmarks section of the race description, I don't see how it can be taken any other way. Regards, Fitz
zambuka 09-19-05, 02:32 AM	Ok, I'm under the impresion that I read somewhere that Dragonmarks are racialy limited, but aside from Changelings and Shifters and Warfarged not being able to have Dragonmarks, the only passages I've found limit Dragonmarks by House and blood. Can anyone point me to a passage that says otherwise, or at least more explicitly? Or did I just read too much into seeing races that were barred from Dragonmarks? Fitz ECS Page 48 under least dragon mark prerequisites: member of appropriate dragon marked house and race Page 63 Table in bottom left hand corner listing house and race prerequisites for each mark.
Sereno 09-19-05, 09:50 AM	The feat: Least Dragonmark Member of appropriate dragonmarked race and house Choose a least dragonmark spell-like ability associated with your dragonmarked house The table: DRAGONMARKS Detection Medani Half-elf Warning Guild Finding Tharashk Half-orc, human Finders Guild Handling Vadalis Human Handlers Guild Healing Jorasco Halfling Healers Guild Hospitality Ghallanda Halfling Hostelers Guild Making Cannith Human Tinkers Guild, Fabricators Guild Passage Orien Human Couriers Guild, Transportation Guild Scribing Sivis Gnome Notaries Guild, Speakers Guild Sentinel Deneith Human Blademarks Guild, Defenders Guild Shadow Phiarlan Elf Entertainers and Artisans Guild Thuranni Elf Shadow Network Storm Lyrandar Half-elf Windwrights Guild, Raincallers Guild Warding Kundarak Dwarf Banking Guild, Warding Guild Strange, I don't see Half-elf listed under Cannith, Orien, Shadow, Deneith or Vadalis. The only one that lists two races is Finding (humand and half-orc). Since these are the *racial requirements* (see the feat), half-elves can ONLY have marks of Detection and Storm.
Sir Elton 09-19-05, 11:04 AM	Strange, I don't see Half-elf listed under Cannith, Orien, Shadow, Deneith or Vadalis. The only one that lists two races is Finding (humand and half-orc). Since these are the *racial requirements* (see the feat), half-elves can ONLY have marks of Detection and Storm. A DM can rule otherwise.
Kid SixXx 09-19-05, 11:07 AM	A DM can rule otherwise. Which is a house rule, done with the understanding that the house rule is not how Dragonmarks work in the setting. Sereno is absolutely correct in his interpretations of the table.
Tom McCarthy 09-19-05, 11:12 AM	I'm part way through the Crimson Talisman. It certainly feels like Adrian Cole wrote it when info about Eberron was harder to find. I find it curious that the half-elf in question (so far in the book) never compares his dragonmark to another form the family, never calls it the mark of passage, and his only use of it is, I believe, to speed a ship along its way. I wonder if Mr. Cole actually thought a half-elf child of a dragonmarked human and an elf could manifest the mark of storms. Or if the parentage of that half-elf is perhaps muddier than most assume (illegitimate child of Lyrandar ?). Strangely, no one seems to question the unsubstantiated rumours that said half-elf has dragon blood from his mother's side. Because elf-dragon miscegenation is no big deal in Eberron, hm ?
The White Sorcerer 09-19-05, 11:23 AM	to speed a ship along its way. Really? I'll have to read the book myself, but that seems like the mark of Storm to me, and I believe Vaddi is an Orien. I wonder if Mr. Cole actually thought a half-elf child of a dragonmarked human and an elf could manifest the mark of storms. Considering the number of people who still adamantly believe it to be so, it's no wonder.
CravesLove 09-19-05, 11:27 AM	Strange, I don't see Half-elf listed under Cannith, Orien, Shadow, Deneith or Vadalis. The only one that lists two races is Finding (humand and half-orc). Since these are the *racial requirements* (see the feat), half-elves can ONLY have marks of Detection and Storm. That table isn't about requirements. Its a quick reference guide to Dragonmarks/Houses/Guilds. How do you explain away that the Half-Elf race section specificaly mentions Half-Elves as members of Elven and Human houses, in the Dragonmarks section? Fitz
MysticTheurge 09-19-05, 12:03 PM	How do you explain away that the Half-Elf race section specificaly mentions Half-Elves as members of Elven and Human houses, in the Dragonmarks section? Fitz Because they can be members of the Elven and Human Houses however the feat requires you to be of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. Therefore, given that Orien is listed as a Human Dragonmark and half-elf born to an Orien parent, while being a member of house Orien, will be a half-elf, not a human, he or she is therefore not of the appropriate dragonmarked race and can't get the feat, or in fluff terms will never manifest the mark.
CravesLove 09-19-05, 01:03 PM	Because they can be members of the Elven and Human Houses however the feat requires you to be of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. Therefore, given that Orien is listed as a Human Dragonmark and half-elf born to an Orien parent, while being a member of house Orien, will be a half-elf, not a human, he or she is therefore not of the appropriate dragonmarked race and can't get the feat, or in fluff terms will never manifest the mark. At the very least, if one assumes you are reading this right, that section (Half-Elf Dragonmarks) was very badly edited. I'm of the opinion that the writers actualy meant to allow Half-Elves to take Dragonmarks from whatever Elven, Half-Elven, or Human House they are born into. Also, Orien is listed as a Human House with the Mark of Passage. Regards, Fitz
MysticTheurge 09-19-05, 01:38 PM	Q Originally posted by jedi8187 Hey Keith, would you think it possible for half-elves to develop the mark of shadow? A By the rules? Definitely not. You'll never see a half-elf with the Mark of Shadow in any official Eberron book. While dragonmarks flow down bloodlines, there is far more to a dragonmark than simply genetics. It is a magical mystery, and only the dragons have and understanding of it. The mark of Shadow is held by the elves, and only by the elves. Unofficially? It's your campaign. Do what you want. It's seems pretty clear that half-elves were never intended to be able to inherit Elven or Human dragonmarks from their elven or human parents. He doesn't actually say so with regards to each of the human dragonmarks, but I think it's a fair extrapolation.
Kid SixXx 09-19-05, 10:44 PM	He doesn't actually say so with regards to each of the human dragonmarks. In the Organizations section of the ECS, the races who receive the dragonmark of a particular house are listed in the first few sentences of each House description. Half-Elves are not named as recipients in the Houses where humans receive the marks. The descriptions follow suit with the table on pg. 62 of the ECS, which clearly shows which race receives which dragonmark. No extrapolation or philosophical debate is needed, unless it is in the course of developing a house rule.