Conspirators Unite! Help please. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conspirators Unite! Help please. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
trentgrey
11-06-04, 07:41 PM I need help pulling off a massive conspiricy. I'm an Artificer that specializes in making golems. I'm also a member of the Golem Master Prestige class fro Kingdoms of Kalamar. This means the Flesh Golems I make look like real humans. I make a new types of Flesh Golems that are medium and small size. I then use Awaken Constuct to make them intelligent. I now have really powerful "Humans." I need help figuring out:
A) How much would it cost to install fake Dragon marks? Basically, they look like Dragon marks and I simply enchant into them the appropriate spells. I need to know how to make these look real too.
B) How can I properly train my "children" to infiltrate the Dargonmarked houses, and achieve postions of authority.
C) Once in positions of Authority, how can they unite to increase the rights of Warforged? This is my ultimate goal as a Warforged Artificer. I would like the forges re-opened and given the the Warforged as a way to propagate the species.

I know this sounds very complex and expensive, but It's a really cool thought I would like to explore and possibly pull off to some degree in my campaign. Thanks in advance for any help. :D
Joni-san
11-06-04, 08:08 PM Well a few homunculus that would help you craft magic items or constructs would help.

Then you need somebody that would get you money, bodies, other materials and the contacts needed to get this stuff.

Perhaps a spy in the Dragonmarked houses.

More later
trentgrey
11-07-04, 02:27 AM I've got my finances covered. One of my coleagues is a Siberys hier, with the mark of making. No one knows he has the mark and we're making sure to only spend it in not entirely noticable ways. I more need help with answers to A, B, And C.
Hellcow
11-07-04, 05:15 AM I've got my finances covered. One of my coleagues is a Siberys hier, with the mark of making.
Bear in mind that the Siberys Mark of Making does have the usual XP cost: this has been confirmed and will be in the next iteration of the errata.

Also, if you're trying to get around the Treaty of Thronehold, it's not the houses you have to control, it's the governments. House Cannith would love to get the forges going again; the clause is, among other things, an effort on the part of the Thronehold nations to limit the power of the houses.

And once your awakened constructs are in place in governments across Khorvaire -- what do you do if they decide to revolt? If I'm a flesh golem in a position of power, I might decide that the warforged are no longer my primary concern...

(The other issue, of course, is what happens when you unwittingly interfere in the plans of the Lords of Dust/Dreaming Dark/Chamber while spreading your agents across the continent -- the danger of starting a conspiracy is tripping over the other older conspiracies. Heck, perhaps Sora Teraza foresaw your plans long ago and the Daughters and Mordain the Fleshweaver already have plans to turn your army against you...)
Kinger
11-07-04, 11:32 AM And once your awakened constructs are in place in governments across Khorvaire -- what do you do if they decide to revolt? If I'm a flesh golem in a position of power, I might decide that the warforged are no longer my primary concern...

Is it just me, or does this sound remarkably similar to a certain world power's history of foreign policy? :)

As Hellcow has said, you probably need to get your "humans" in positions of authority in the governments, rather than the Houses. If you're conspiring, why not go deeper and... "replace" certain key officials? I'd think you'd get to your goals sooner if you start at the top, rather than working your way up all the way from the bottom. You'll have to make rather convincing duplicates, of course, but wouldn't your duplicates be rather convincing if the corpses they were crafted from were in fact those authorities you are trying to duplicate? Granted, you need that person to "disappear" briefly for the whole crafting process, but I'm sure that can be arranged easily enough. Government officials take vacations all the time. :devil:
zambuka
11-07-04, 08:48 PM A) How much would it cost to install fake Dragon marks? Basically, they look like Dragon marks and I simply enchant into them the appropriate spells. I need to know how to make these look real too.

I don't know about the rest of your questions, that would be pretty much up to you and the DM to figure out. But forging a dragon mark is covered in the ESB page 46 under forgery.

FORGERY
A character who can cast arcane mark can attempt to forge
someone else's mark using the Forgery skill while casting
the spell. This special use of both spell and skill stretches
the casting time of the arcane mark spell to 10 minutes. The
character makes a Forgery check as normal, taking a -10
penalty on the check.
(At least I think this is referring to Dragon marks)

And I suggest looking under the item creation rules in the DMG for mimicing the marks powers. That or the tattoo rules from the Forgotten Realms sourcebook, but with some modifications since those are one shots.
trentgrey
11-08-04, 06:21 PM Bear in mind that the Siberys Mark of Making does have the usual XP cost: this has been confirmed and will be in the next iteration of the errata.
Well, that does damper my resources. But I think my wealth as an Artificer could still suffice.
And once your awakened constructs are in place in governments across Khorvaire -- what do you do if they decide to revolt? If I'm a flesh golem in a position of power, I might decide that the warforged are no longer my primary concern...
Well, it mind sound cruel to do this to my "children" but I would have to implant some kind of fail safe device that would allow me to destroy them should they revolt.

(The other issue, of course, is what happens when you unwittingly interfere in the plans of the Lords of Dust/Dreaming Dark/Chamber while spreading your agents across the continent -- the danger of starting a conspiracy is tripping over the other older conspiracies. Heck, perhaps Sora Teraza foresaw your plans long ago and the Daughters and Mordain the Fleshweaver already have plans to turn your army against you...)

I guess this part can't be planned for other than having a loyal "army" of golems.

BTW, I'm very honored to have the Hellcow himself address my post. :bow:
Raffadus
11-09-04, 12:39 AM Arcane mark would allow you to make a fake dragon mark on your golems, but arcane marks fade in about a month when put on living flesh, though your golems arent living so they may last longer. If you can regularly cast arcane mark on your golems no problem. A permanency spell may, may allow your arcane mark to last longer. A permanent image spell may also duplicate the look of a dragon mark but that is stretching the spells description. An Alter self spell or a disguise self spell might also work as well. The best way to make these spells last longer is to make a wand with the desired spell and then use meta magic spell trigger ability or the meta magic item infusion to make the spells peristent.

Dupilcating the effects of a dragon mark will require a ring or amulet of some sort. You may also be able to use the imbue with spell ability spell, not sure though, it may be beyond the abilities of the spell.

Inflitrating the houses will be difficult. The dragon marked houses know who has a dragon mark and who doesn't. They keep track of the blood lines of all the dragon marked after the war of the mark. Replacing existing members within a house will also be tricky since to duplicating them requires more than just taking on their outward apperance. Spying on them and using spells such as detect thoughts, scry, clairaudience/claivoyance, and using a homunulus could all be ways to find out info on your target. Still the most effective way will be bribing the information out of their servants.
There are still better ways to infiltrate, replace and manipulate organizations than using "loyal" flesh golems. Using charm spells, domination spells, geas spells, mundane black mail, threating them or their families,etc.. are all effective and alot cheaper. Also here is an idea you may not have thought of. Frist off you will have to find and kill a gargantuan scorpion, cr 10 by the way, then take its posion sac. Now you have a DC 23 posion that does 1d8 con damage for intial and secondary effects. Now you find some flunky that you want to do a task for you. You find them corner them and cast delay posion on them. Then you inject them with the scorpion posion. Now you let them know that they must do exactly what you want or you won't cast delay posion on them again and they will die. Ofcourse this tacit wont work on anyone that can afford the 250gp for a neutralize posion spell from house jorasco. But most people cant afford that so you should be good to go.
You could use your golems to replace police officers and judges in a city, then use the posion tacit and your remaining golems as muscle to set your self up as a crime boss in a large city.

But you say your goal is to further the rights of warforged and open the creation forges and hopefully give the warforged a way to propagate the species. Is that even possible? I mean, can you even make a warforged that procreate? It seems that you are getting ahead of your self in your planning. Your first goal would should be to either make a creation forge of your own or steal one from somebody else. Then use the creation forge to experiment in making a warforged that can reproduce.
Objulen
11-09-04, 01:32 AM A) How much would it cost to install fake Dragon marks? Basically, they look like Dragon marks and I simply enchant into them the appropriate spells. I need to know how to make these look real too.

I would talk to my DM about trying to develop permanent or longer lasting Psionic Tatoos installed that use powers mimicing the Dragon marks' spells. You are trying to set up a consiparacy, so where are your fellow conspirators? Get a psion or two with a mind (no pun intended) for some research and development involved and see what you can pull off.

B) How can I properly train my "children" to infiltrate the Dargonmarked houses, and achieve postions of authority.

The same way you train anyone else -- learn the different customs, situations, dynamics, and cultures of the different houses through spies, bribes, mental intrusion, and other such sources and have your "children" study them.

C) Once in positions of Authority, how can they unite to increase the rights of Warforged? This is my ultimate goal as a Warforged Artificer. I would like the forges re-opened and given the the Warforged as a way to propagate the species.

Charisma, leadership, and the force of arms and economics. Your best bet is to make yourself so much stronger than anyone else that no one can dare oppose you. But better yet, keep your potential foes off balance. Don't let them know what you are planning, but find out about what they are planning. Read some Sun Tzu (sic probably) and Machiavelli.

Some general tips:

1) Don't let anyone know who they are working for beyond their next superior. The old cliche about the left hand not knowing what the right hand does applies, but take it further -- don't let the fingers know what the hell is going on beyond their little piece. You must be willing to accpet losses. It is better to lose a finger through inaction than a hand through action.

2) Don't attach your name to it in any way. Use false names and proxies. Magic and psionics help as well. Your face should not be seen. Become innocuous and put up an innocent front. You study golems, and you sell them, and help with the town defense. Nothing to see here, move along. No one should realize that they spoke with a shadowy master of a conspiracy when they speak with you.

3) Spies. Spies. Spies. Knowledge is power in a world of shadow conspiracies and politics. Keep your movements unknown and unknowable -- non-detection, mind blank, and other such spells are your best friends and the best friends of your organization. Ignorance in your lackies and minnions is a good thing -- only you should have complete knowledge of your plans, capabilities, and organization. Learn everything you can about everything else -- even the most seemingly pointless detail could prove to be a valuable piece of information some where down the road.

4) You are warforged. You are immortal. Protect your immortality -- you decay, but unlike the other races, your decay can be repaired with relative ease, and you don't need powerful magic or undeath to survive. Your studies into the nature of golems will help in this. Take the long view; generations of elves will pass during the span of your life if you are careful enough. Taking nine steps backwards so you can take ten steps forward decades or even centuries later should be perfectly acceptable to you; time is something you have in abundance. If you are crafty, cunning, and careful enough, your victory will be like death for the organic races -- slow, steady, and inexorable, an unavoidable fate that can not be averted, only accepted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trentgrey 11-06-04, 07:41 PM	I need help pulling off a massive conspiricy. I'm an Artificer that specializes in making golems. I'm also a member of the Golem Master Prestige class fro Kingdoms of Kalamar. This means the Flesh Golems I make look like real humans. I make a new types of Flesh Golems that are medium and small size. I then use Awaken Constuct to make them intelligent. I now have really powerful "Humans." I need help figuring out: A) How much would it cost to install fake Dragon marks? Basically, they look like Dragon marks and I simply enchant into them the appropriate spells. I need to know how to make these look real too. B) How can I properly train my "children" to infiltrate the Dargonmarked houses, and achieve postions of authority. C) Once in positions of Authority, how can they unite to increase the rights of Warforged? This is my ultimate goal as a Warforged Artificer. I would like the forges re-opened and given the the Warforged as a way to propagate the species. I know this sounds very complex and expensive, but It's a really cool thought I would like to explore and possibly pull off to some degree in my campaign. Thanks in advance for any help. :D
Joni-san 11-06-04, 08:08 PM	Well a few homunculus that would help you craft magic items or constructs would help. Then you need somebody that would get you money, bodies, other materials and the contacts needed to get this stuff. Perhaps a spy in the Dragonmarked houses. More later
trentgrey 11-07-04, 02:27 AM	I've got my finances covered. One of my coleagues is a Siberys hier, with the mark of making. No one knows he has the mark and we're making sure to only spend it in not entirely noticable ways. I more need help with answers to A, B, And C.
Hellcow 11-07-04, 05:15 AM	I've got my finances covered. One of my coleagues is a Siberys hier, with the mark of making. Bear in mind that the Siberys Mark of Making does have the usual XP cost: this has been confirmed and will be in the next iteration of the errata. Also, if you're trying to get around the Treaty of Thronehold, it's not the houses you have to control, it's the governments. House Cannith would love to get the forges going again; the clause is, among other things, an effort on the part of the Thronehold nations to limit the power of the houses. And once your awakened constructs are in place in governments across Khorvaire -- what do you do if they decide to revolt? If I'm a flesh golem in a position of power, I might decide that the warforged are no longer my primary concern... (The other issue, of course, is what happens when you unwittingly interfere in the plans of the Lords of Dust/Dreaming Dark/Chamber while spreading your agents across the continent -- the danger of starting a conspiracy is tripping over the other older conspiracies. Heck, perhaps Sora Teraza foresaw your plans long ago and the Daughters and Mordain the Fleshweaver already have plans to turn your army against you...)
Kinger 11-07-04, 11:32 AM	And once your awakened constructs are in place in governments across Khorvaire -- what do you do if they decide to revolt? If I'm a flesh golem in a position of power, I might decide that the warforged are no longer my primary concern... Is it just me, or does this sound remarkably similar to a certain world power's history of foreign policy? :) As Hellcow has said, you probably need to get your "humans" in positions of authority in the governments, rather than the Houses. If you're conspiring, why not go deeper and... "replace" certain key officials? I'd think you'd get to your goals sooner if you start at the top, rather than working your way up all the way from the bottom. You'll have to make rather convincing duplicates, of course, but wouldn't your duplicates be rather convincing if the corpses they were crafted from were in fact those authorities you are trying to duplicate? Granted, you need that person to "disappear" briefly for the whole crafting process, but I'm sure that can be arranged easily enough. Government officials take vacations all the time. :devil:
zambuka 11-07-04, 08:48 PM	A) How much would it cost to install fake Dragon marks? Basically, they look like Dragon marks and I simply enchant into them the appropriate spells. I need to know how to make these look real too. I don't know about the rest of your questions, that would be pretty much up to you and the DM to figure out. But forging a dragon mark is covered in the ESB page 46 under forgery. FORGERY A character who can cast arcane mark can attempt to forge someone else's mark using the Forgery skill while casting the spell. This special use of both spell and skill stretches the casting time of the arcane mark spell to 10 minutes. The character makes a Forgery check as normal, taking a -10 penalty on the check. (At least I think this is referring to Dragon marks) And I suggest looking under the item creation rules in the DMG for mimicing the marks powers. That or the tattoo rules from the Forgotten Realms sourcebook, but with some modifications since those are one shots.
trentgrey 11-08-04, 06:21 PM	Bear in mind that the Siberys Mark of Making does have the usual XP cost: this has been confirmed and will be in the next iteration of the errata. Well, that does damper my resources. But I think my wealth as an Artificer could still suffice. And once your awakened constructs are in place in governments across Khorvaire -- what do you do if they decide to revolt? If I'm a flesh golem in a position of power, I might decide that the warforged are no longer my primary concern... Well, it mind sound cruel to do this to my "children" but I would have to implant some kind of fail safe device that would allow me to destroy them should they revolt. (The other issue, of course, is what happens when you unwittingly interfere in the plans of the Lords of Dust/Dreaming Dark/Chamber while spreading your agents across the continent -- the danger of starting a conspiracy is tripping over the other older conspiracies. Heck, perhaps Sora Teraza foresaw your plans long ago and the Daughters and Mordain the Fleshweaver already have plans to turn your army against you...) I guess this part can't be planned for other than having a loyal "army" of golems. BTW, I'm very honored to have the Hellcow himself address my post. :bow:
Raffadus 11-09-04, 12:39 AM	Arcane mark would allow you to make a fake dragon mark on your golems, but arcane marks fade in about a month when put on living flesh, though your golems arent living so they may last longer. If you can regularly cast arcane mark on your golems no problem. A permanency spell may, may allow your arcane mark to last longer. A permanent image spell may also duplicate the look of a dragon mark but that is stretching the spells description. An Alter self spell or a disguise self spell might also work as well. The best way to make these spells last longer is to make a wand with the desired spell and then use meta magic spell trigger ability or the meta magic item infusion to make the spells peristent. Dupilcating the effects of a dragon mark will require a ring or amulet of some sort. You may also be able to use the imbue with spell ability spell, not sure though, it may be beyond the abilities of the spell. Inflitrating the houses will be difficult. The dragon marked houses know who has a dragon mark and who doesn't. They keep track of the blood lines of all the dragon marked after the war of the mark. Replacing existing members within a house will also be tricky since to duplicating them requires more than just taking on their outward apperance. Spying on them and using spells such as detect thoughts, scry, clairaudience/claivoyance, and using a homunulus could all be ways to find out info on your target. Still the most effective way will be bribing the information out of their servants. There are still better ways to infiltrate, replace and manipulate organizations than using "loyal" flesh golems. Using charm spells, domination spells, geas spells, mundane black mail, threating them or their families,etc.. are all effective and alot cheaper. Also here is an idea you may not have thought of. Frist off you will have to find and kill a gargantuan scorpion, cr 10 by the way, then take its posion sac. Now you have a DC 23 posion that does 1d8 con damage for intial and secondary effects. Now you find some flunky that you want to do a task for you. You find them corner them and cast delay posion on them. Then you inject them with the scorpion posion. Now you let them know that they must do exactly what you want or you won't cast delay posion on them again and they will die. Ofcourse this tacit wont work on anyone that can afford the 250gp for a neutralize posion spell from house jorasco. But most people cant afford that so you should be good to go. You could use your golems to replace police officers and judges in a city, then use the posion tacit and your remaining golems as muscle to set your self up as a crime boss in a large city. But you say your goal is to further the rights of warforged and open the creation forges and hopefully give the warforged a way to propagate the species. Is that even possible? I mean, can you even make a warforged that procreate? It seems that you are getting ahead of your self in your planning. Your first goal would should be to either make a creation forge of your own or steal one from somebody else. Then use the creation forge to experiment in making a warforged that can reproduce.
Objulen 11-09-04, 01:32 AM	A) How much would it cost to install fake Dragon marks? Basically, they look like Dragon marks and I simply enchant into them the appropriate spells. I need to know how to make these look real too. I would talk to my DM about trying to develop permanent or longer lasting Psionic Tatoos installed that use powers mimicing the Dragon marks' spells. You are trying to set up a consiparacy, so where are your fellow conspirators? Get a psion or two with a mind (no pun intended) for some research and development involved and see what you can pull off. B) How can I properly train my "children" to infiltrate the Dargonmarked houses, and achieve postions of authority. The same way you train anyone else -- learn the different customs, situations, dynamics, and cultures of the different houses through spies, bribes, mental intrusion, and other such sources and have your "children" study them. C) Once in positions of Authority, how can they unite to increase the rights of Warforged? This is my ultimate goal as a Warforged Artificer. I would like the forges re-opened and given the the Warforged as a way to propagate the species. Charisma, leadership, and the force of arms and economics. Your best bet is to make yourself so much stronger than anyone else that no one can dare oppose you. But better yet, keep your potential foes off balance. Don't let them know what you are planning, but find out about what they are planning. Read some Sun Tzu (sic probably) and Machiavelli. Some general tips: 1) Don't let anyone know who they are working for beyond their next superior. The old cliche about the left hand not knowing what the right hand does applies, but take it further -- don't let the fingers know what the hell is going on beyond their little piece. You must be willing to accpet losses. It is better to lose a finger through inaction than a hand through action. 2) Don't attach your name to it in any way. Use false names and proxies. Magic and psionics help as well. Your face should not be seen. Become innocuous and put up an innocent front. You study golems, and you sell them, and help with the town defense. Nothing to see here, move along. No one should realize that they spoke with a shadowy master of a conspiracy when they speak with you. 3) Spies. Spies. Spies. Knowledge is power in a world of shadow conspiracies and politics. Keep your movements unknown and unknowable -- non-detection, mind blank, and other such spells are your best friends and the best friends of your organization. Ignorance in your lackies and minnions is a good thing -- only you should have complete knowledge of your plans, capabilities, and organization. Learn everything you can about everything else -- even the most seemingly pointless detail could prove to be a valuable piece of information some where down the road. 4) You are warforged. You are immortal. Protect your immortality -- you decay, but unlike the other races, your decay can be repaired with relative ease, and you don't need powerful magic or undeath to survive. Your studies into the nature of golems will help in this. Take the long view; generations of elves will pass during the span of your life if you are careful enough. Taking nine steps backwards so you can take ten steps forward decades or even centuries later should be perfectly acceptable to you; time is something you have in abundance. If you are crafty, cunning, and careful enough, your victory will be like death for the organic races -- slow, steady, and inexorable, an unavoidable fate that can not be averted, only accepted.