Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shemov 10-17-05, 08:28 AM	I consider ECS, Sharn:CoT, 3 adventures and Keith Baker's Dragonshards as core material only. The quality of RoE, MoE, 5N, EH is 2 or 3 stars only and brings chaos in my imagination. I have stopped reading Sharn Inquisitive as well. I hope WotC will think about last releases and will work hard to improve back to 5 stars in case of PGtE and other new Eberron materials. Dear WotC, Please think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Splendide 10-17-05, 08:47 AM	I have to say that my biggest concern with Eberron's development is that the non-Keith stuff seems to be about adding new things to the world, as opposed to exploring what is already there. My cynical mind says that this is because making up all new stuff doesn't require much research into what has been previously written, and that this is the preferred option for freelancers superficially involved with Eberron only, but its really not good enough. Eberron is a new world, and to maintain consistency, WotC really need to hire writers that have a genuine interest in the setting as written. It doesn't need a reimagining, its already brand new! Another concern is that, in the ECS we have an excellent infrastructure put in place and the framework of sourcebooks should just about write themselves (Books on Dragonmarked Houses, specific regions, clerical orders, etc)...but WotC aren't using it, and that baffles me. Why are we getting grab-bag sourcebooks?
Glayve 10-17-05, 09:01 AM	I have to agree that I am baffled by most non-Baker colaborated material. "I need more Cow Hell Baby!"
Mula 10-17-05, 09:12 AM	I agree too. More Keith Baker, please.
anarco_rata 10-17-05, 09:20 AM	more moo, less p..
shemov 10-17-05, 09:25 AM	dear all, pls make this thread grow and let's make WotC hear us. :invasion: BTW this is not the joke. they should listen to their customers. I bought all the Eberron books.
Euangelion 10-17-05, 09:50 AM	It's too early in the development of the setting for there to be sourcebooks published that Keith has not looked over before they're sent to the printers, as is the case of MoE. However, since Keith mentioned that this is the first time it has happened, that means he must have at least looked at EH, 5N, and RoE. Personally, I think that the primary mistake was to have so many different people writing material for Eberron (sourcebooks, novels, adventures, etc.) so soon after the launch of the setting, which practically begs for continuity problems. However, the burden should not be on Keith's shoulders alone, since he works on a freelance basis, not as an employee of WOTC.
Splendide 10-17-05, 09:53 AM	I agree that the pool of writers should be much narrower at this stage of development. It doesn't need to be all Keith, it just needs writers focused on the Eberron setting.
Glayve 10-17-05, 10:04 AM	Euangelion brings up a good point concerning the multitude of writers. Easily resolved though...SEND HELLCOW MORE CHECKS BABY!
polt 10-17-05, 10:30 AM	A couple of things: Keith didn't write the ECS alone, he didn't create Eberron alone. The stuff in the ECS, isn't all his. Second, I'm sick and tired of this Keith's word is law. He created some of the setting, and the basic of the feel, but it's not like his Eberron is the RIGHT eberron. He has written some pretty cool stuff, I like it, and I respect him for Eberron and all the time he's using on the setting. But there's also Dragonshards, and parts in the ECS, Sharn and RoE that I don't like, and probably won't include in my world. I agree though that I don't like the stuff in RoE and Five Nations that just doesn't make sense according to other stuff we know.
Euangelion 10-17-05, 10:50 AM	I agree that Keith should not be considered the only valid one who can write about Eberron. There should be others, but not so many others that communication between them breaks down. Some continuity issues are bound to arise since no one is perfect. But why waste words on two contradictory stories regarding the beginnings of Aerenal, for example. There's so much other stuff that could be written about, and yet time and space are wasted with redundant and contradictory stories. It makes no sense at all.
polt 10-17-05, 10:54 AM	I think it's more important that WizO decides on a group of core writers, so it's not like a hundred different writers with a hundred different views on Eberron.
anarco_rata 10-17-05, 10:54 AM	well, of course polt, keith's word isn't law in eberron, because every master play his own eberron, however, as euangelion said, here seems to be too many people trying to get into the eberron setting, now, is not like they are bad writers or developers, but having lots of people seeing the world in a different way and writing about it results in mistakes and contradictions, also, some of them seem have meager understanding of the ECS. What it seems is that eberron is beign tretaed like the realms. Everybody is welcome to join and bring new ideas to the setting, however, eberron is not the realms, is a diferent world from the usual d&d, and is a (still) new setting, wich many haven't played too much yet. What i think we all agree is that eberron should have a few fixed developers that pretty much agree with the basics of the setting and know it and love it. Keith was the creator of the setting, with help from a few other people that i'm sure worked hard to help make eberron the amazing setting it is, so its only natural that keith's vision and the other original develpers (james wyatt for instance) to be the ones that write most of the stuff. Now, i'll be fair, i also dislike some of the things in the ECS (little things i dilike for no particular reason), and i don't accept everything keith's writes in my world just because he wrote it (even tougth i like most of his stuff and think he's one of the best developers lately), but be sure, if the same people wrote every book, we would see a lot less mistakes. Everyone can write something for forgotten, just because everybody that has played d&d for a long time is sure to know a lot about the good old realms, but eberron? no. not yet.
realdm 10-17-05, 11:48 AM	i repost what i said in another thread all the supplements have amazing art and lots of information, but for example, i have been using sharn like a monkey because my campaign was set in it for three months (20 sessions). now my pcs are around the 5 nations. what does the book really states, the 5 n book.. not much they have to go to thrane.. there is not much, it s almost useless. and aundair? same, apart for arcanix. the explorer is amazing, beautiful book. i love it and i'll use it a lot. but it will create millions of group playing the same adventures. i mean i love my eberron books, i really do, but i think that the explorer and 5n, a part for the inconcistencies(lots of them) arent that much, especially if compared to sharn and the ecs--
Brastan 10-17-05, 12:08 PM	A couple of things: *cut for lenght* Ya what he said, kind of. I think it's more important that WizO decides on a group of core writers, so it's not like a hundred different writers with a hundred different views on Eberron. Again agreement, and were is there setting documentation. I would think that havening a unified in-house reference and indexed document would help show what needs development and what has currently been done. It must be the programming class I took but we got hit hard with "document and comment" your work requirements. I see why this is so important even in my own work. I've been trying to re-edit an old manuscript of mine for sometime now. I wish my co-writer and myself had kept better documentation at the time, would be saveing me headaches now. For our younger posters when your teaches say "show your work" and "explain your answerers" there is a very good reason for it as you can see.
Errant 10-17-05, 12:22 PM	Personally, I'm not too phased about who writes about Eberron (so long as Keith continues to be one of the writers!), but I really, really, really wish they'd bring on more classic adventures that draw on the history and factions of Eberron. Show us some more of the the important locations in Eberron and WHY they're important! There are so many hooks and hints scattered throughout. Lets see some of those expanded upon. I'm probably wasting my time, but if I read the product catalog right, there have been six "accessories" (not counting the characters sheets and DM screen), five novels and only three adventure modules! The PCs are supposed to be the heroes of Eberron, accomplishing great deeds and exploring the far and dark corners of the world. Am I the only one who thinks some specific material would be helpful? Give us an expedition to Xen'drik, and an ancient giant-built ruin, mapped out, occupied and ready to explore. Let us discover the ruins of the Dhakaani empire, and the relics used by them to defeat the Daelkyr. Show us a fortified Emerald Claw outpost, with Emerald Claw Knights and Blood of Vol links that the PCs(!) can discover. What are their favored tactics and special weapons? Elaborate on one of the Lords of Dust's plots to spread its influence into the heart of civilized Khorvaire, so the PCs can discover and foil their efforts. Involve us in the ventures of the Dragonmark Houses, protecting their markets and expand their operations into Droamm, Darguun, or Q'barra. Give us maps, NPCs, encounters, legends and magic items that illustrate what its like to adventure in Eberron. This world has so much potential, but those of us with limited time and cartographical skills could use some help to actually bring the world to life for our players. <edited spelling>
realdm 10-17-05, 12:24 PM	i guess what you talk about is in the explorer, Errant
polt 10-17-05, 12:25 PM	Give us an expedition to Xen'drik, and an ancient giant-built ruin, mapped out, occupied and ready to explore. Let us discover the ruins of the Dhakaani empire, and the relics used by them to defeat the Daelkyr. Show us a fortified Emerald Claw outpost, with Emerald Claw Knights and Blood of Vol links that the PCs(!) can discover. What are their favored tactics and special weapons? Elaborate on one of the Lords of Dust's plots to spread its influence into the heart of civilized Khorvaire, so the PCs can discover and foil their efforts. Involve us in the ventures of the Dragonmark Houses, protecting their markets and expand their operations into Droamm, Darguun, or Q'barra. Give us maps, NPCs, encounters, legends and magic items that illustrate what its like to adventure in Eberron. This world has so much potential, but those of us with limited time and cartographical skills could use some help to actually bring the world to life for our players. <edited spelling> Actually, I think most of that is pretty easy to make yourself, as a DM. So I disagree.
Tait Ransom 10-17-05, 12:36 PM	So far, I've been happy with the information in the different books. I'd make changes here and there, but overall my Eberron collection is worth every dime I've given WotC. The ECS could be a one-stop shop for me, if I wasn't such a packrat/completist. My only complaint is there's not a good way to separate DM info from Player info. None of my player's has the ECS, so they don't know that Kaius has this whole vampire thing going on. However, they also don't have access to the artificer class and infusions, new spells, dragonmarks, and Eberron specific feats. I wish Sharn: City of Towers was organized better or had an index, as it takes me forever to find anything. The info there is good, though, and it's worked well in my current campaign. It's hard to find a specific location if the players decide to head there unexpectedly, though. I love the Explorer's Guide, as it fleshes out some general items (mostly transportation methods) very nicely and provides some neat places to explore. Again, it's been very useful to me. Races of Eberron was a good read for me, as it fleshes out the new races better from a character development/roleplaying perspective. I appreciate the info on the standard races almost as much as the info on the new ones. I haven't used it as much in my current campaign, but my players have. The Five Nations would work better for me if it gave consistent information for all five nations. For example, a "man on the street" perspective from someone from Thrane on each of the other 5 nations, and each of the other realms of Khorvaire. This was provided for some of the 5, but it didn't always include all of the other nations. Some of the sections were very useful to me, some were not. It was very uneven in my opinion, but I don't regret buying it. I wish it had a map with the political boundaries, or that the regional maps showed a bit more of what's on the other side of their borders (made it tough to plot out a few trips I've been working up). The info on the website is becoming much more useful to me. Since I print up a handout of The Sharn Inquisitive to hand my players, the SI info on the site has been useful, either as plot hooks or just to show what else is happening. I can't comment on Magic of Eberron, as I don't have it yet. I've gotten a lot out of the Eberron line, but I tend to pick and choose a lot. There are some minor inconsistencies that I've seen (Elaydren having different last names in The Forgotten Forge and Shadows of the Last War, for example). If I read closer, I'd probably see more of them. Overall, though, I feel I've been getting my money's worth. I can't ask for much more than that.
Hellcow 10-17-05, 12:46 PM	Keith didn't write the ECS alone, he didn't create Eberron alone. The stuff in the ECS, isn't all his. This is very true. Bill Slaviscek, James Wyatt, and Chris Perkins were all deeply involved in the creation of Eberron, and they are all part of WotC. Many of the best ideas in the ECS came about through our collaboration, not from any one person. I know that Bill and Chris do review each book and do their best to make sure it matches continuity; if things occasionally slip through the net, well, it can happen. In my mind, a greater issue is what sort of books people want to see: this is something Bill and Chris asked the audience at GenCon, and they do want to know. Do you want to see a book on Dragonmarked Houses? The Last War? Other periods of history? Which would you rather see: a book on Sarlona or a book on the wilder regions of Khorvaire? This is a good subject for a thread (I know one exists, but keep at it) - and it is information WotC wants to know. There are a few other factors to bear in mind. Sometimes when I'm not involved in books it's because I don't have the time - I do have other things going on, like the novels, and I can't necessarily be involved in everything. I do agree that the idea of a core group of Eberron writers is a good one, but I think one can argue that the setting is young and that by giving new writers a chance WotC can see who is best suited to be on such a team. I know that the people I worked with on the Xen'drik book - neither of whom had worked on published Eberron material before - were great to work with and very excited about the project, and I think it's going to be a good book. And on that note, I AM involved on the Player's Guide to Eberron and the, hmm, top-secret Xen'drik book... and I'm just starting work on another sourcebook which hasn't been announced yet, but which I'm really excited about. I'm not going to work on everything; I don't even want to work on everything, and while I respect that your mileage may vary, I'm personally pleased with the last few books (I don't know if he'd like to do more Eberron work, but I'd love to see Rich Burlew do more; OotS aside, I'm very impressed with his design work). I'll also note that even as I prepare to start work on the next book, I've been sent the files for ANOTHER unnanounced sourcebook, so I can skim it over and provide feedback. So... I'm not on WotC staff. I don't make the decisions about what books get published, and I don't have final say on things. But the people who do - Bill and Chris - were part of Eberron from the very begining. And I am going to be a part of Eberron development in the future. I know that Bill at least reads these boards when he has time. So rather than simply "More Keith" - which while I appreciate it, you will get anyway - I would try to highlight what you liked and didn't like about books, and what you want to see in the future. The statement that you want to see more of what already exists developed as opposed to entirely new material - if many people share that belief, THAT'S a very valuable thing to hear. Even if you disliked a book - are there parts you liked, or parts you REALLY disliked? Because if WotC does try to put together a team of Eberron All-Stars, it would help to know "I really liked Nation X in the Five Nations but didn't care for Nation Y". Anyhow, Bill does look at these boards when he can. So you do have a chance of having your voice heard. The key is clarifying your message: if you're not happy with the current Eberron books, how do you feel they could be improved? Personally, I don't think "More Keith" is the answer... but hey, if it is, you'll be getting it in the future anyway.
Siran Dunmorgan 10-17-05, 01:08 PM	Actually, I think most of that is pretty easy to make yourself, as a DM. So I disagree. There is a vast gulf between "should be" and "is". For some of us, yes—it's pretty easy. I can run a Dhakaani ruins adventure off the cuff, making things up as I go along, including non-player characters, monsters, rooms, treasures, and the tunnels the daelkyr-controlled forces used to breach the walls. I can even document it later, well enough that most of you would be able to run pretty much the same adventure my players had experienced. You and I can think of a half-dozen plots by any of a number of organizations—the mind reels at the sheer possibilities implied by an adventure title like "Slaves of the Targath Mines"—and run them to completion with little more than a sketchbook and a pencil. When—presumably—you or I sit down in front of a tool like Campaign Cartographer or Dundjinni and take a couple of days to actually write or draw everything up front, it all comes pretty much naturally to transform what we envision into documentation. But there are a lot of people who run Dungeons & Dragons who can't do that. Not won't, but can't. There are a lot of people who buy and run adventures straight out of the box. They aren't bad Dungeon Masters—they're cunning and resourceful, good with description, they can voice-act non-player characters beautifully, and their players treasure them—but they can't design adventures or come up with non-player character names on the fly. It's for them that the published adventures are written. It's for them that all the books published recently include encounter descriptions and small settings. They can't draw, and they can't write creatively, but they can run things well. So don't knock the idea of more books like Explorer's Handbook, with small-scale adventure components that can be strung together to create more complete campaigns. This is even the most reasonable response to Sir Elton's recent complaint about problems with the "scripted" adventure format: books of adventure components that can be mixed and matched to create complete adventures or campaigns. Such things may not be useful to the likes of you or I, but they would be a godsend for a great many Dungeon Masters. And, of course, you and I would buy them anyway. It's a win-win for Wizards of the Coast, if they go this way. ~~~~~~~~~~ The problem, of course, lies in whether or not they have writers familiar with the material that has gone before, and don't commit atrocities with respect to the legend of Aeren, or the nature of the daelkyr confinement in Khyber. That's one folks on this thread haven't commented on, by the way: the Eberron Campaign Setting describes the daelkyr as being free to roam around in Khyber, but not to breach the surface, and that the daelkyr themselves aren't especially concerned that they're confined—it's the mind flayers who are mostly obsessive about breaking the seals, not the daelkyr. Note that Five Nations has already presented a backstory in contradiction to this, in their description of Yarkuun Draal, in Breland. There, we encouter a daelkyr working more or less alone, on or near the surface, actively attempting to attract people to the area who will break the dimensional seal on the city. But Magic of Eberron presents yet another perspective: in this new text, the daelkyr are physically bound into globes or spheres, and are wholly immobile and only barely capable of communication. Now, it's possible that all three models are true: the statements barely avoid contradiction if at least two daelkyr are free to roam in Khyber, at least two are bound in the manner described in Magic of Eberron, and one is living in Yarkuun Draal. That leaves one of the six mentioned in the Eberron Campaign Setting still at large. Perhaps the next Eberron sourcebook will describe it as a master political manipulator, running for a seat in the Brelish parliament. :) —Siran Dunmorgan
polt 10-17-05, 01:27 PM	Actually, one thing I didnt' like about Five Nations, and I can't belive they missed is this: What do the DM need to know when a party travels through, Karrnath for example. How is the climate? What does their surroundings look like? What is a typical village. Are there guards travelling the roads, and do they demand travel papers? How are the people of Karrnath? I mean, it's all good and well with the NPCs, orginization and all that. But they totally missed the basic stuff, like: How the hell does this place look?
Strae Wolfe 10-17-05, 01:34 PM	At the risk of evoking the wrath of Hellcow: I do agree that the idea of a core group of Eberron writers is a good one, but I think one can argue that the setting is young and that by giving new writers a chance WotC can see who is best suited to be on such a team. The problem I see here is paying PREMIUM prices for soucebooks products on "Trial Writers". And I believe a point is missed here. Its not specific items in specific books that seems to knock the campaign world off kilter, its the appeareance that WoTC is letting anyone with an hour of spare time to write for the setting therefore giving the GENERAL appearence of a patchwork quilt. I interpret that as the concern of the original poster of this thread. And I have to agree, when I pay $30 for a sourcebook I want $30 worth of game material, and I'm not impressed by any "potluck" slammed together word padded "make the deadline" product. I beleieve the poster was calling for a little more forethought on the congruousness of the material.
Edymnion 10-17-05, 01:56 PM	Agreed. The prices of the books keep going up while the page count and quality keep going down. The ECS had 320 pages for $40. The Explorer's Handbook had 157 pages for $30. Thats 12.5 cents per page for the ECS, compared to 19.1 cents per page for the ExH. Thats nearly a 35% increase in price, for lower quality material, worse editing, and no index. Add in on top of that the fact that instead of sticking to people we know can write for this setting, they're essentially throwing it to people that have little to no idea what is actually going on in the setting. Keith, honestly, I love this setting, I really do. It is very likely the only reason I am still playing D&D, because the old stuff had just gotten too stale and repetative. But the situation really is getting unbearable. I would be willing to pay these higher prices, *IF* there was a core team making the material. I would be willing to cut the new guys some slack, *IF* their stuff didn't cost as much as they do. I say this about software companies, I say this about the video game industry, and I'm saying it about Eberron and D&D. And I'm going to use the pronoun "You" a lot, but I'm referring to WotC in general, not you or any other individual. I am not going to pay to do your beta testing. By the time the product hits the shelf, it had damned well better have 99% of the bugs out of it, it had better be the best damned quality your company is capable of producing, and "patches" are not an acceptable procedure for ANY company to rely on. If WotC wants to get new people in to see how they handle things, thats fine. You give them a small little corner that doesn't matter to play in. If they can handle that, you give them a slightly bigger piece that matters a very small bit. You work them up. You do *NOT* give them entire freaking chapters in a brand new setting to screw up on. Just like you don't give new doctors entire wings of a hospital to run right out of med school. Honestly, IMO, the first sign of shoddy work in this industry is when you stop putting an index in your books, and that one has been around far too much lately. I know it takes time, and it takes money. It also means somebody has to sit down and actually READ the damn book to find all the page numbers for things. Which, coincidentally enough, means they actually FIND the freaking typos and outright errors in the book. Seriously here people. I look for two things in D&D books, and when I see them, I am *MUCH* happier with the product I get. An index, and a list of playtesters. So, WotC, you want market research, here it is. We're sick of paying higher prices just so you can pay bottom dollar to the freaking interns to write the foundational material for an entire setting, and then not have somebody that knows what they're doing sit down with the book with a fine toothed comb to catch all the places the intern screwed up. I'll pay for quality, I really will. But I'm just about at my breaking point as far as what you're putting out now. The page count keeps dropping, the quality of the books keep dropping, the outright errors and contradictions keep increasing, and honestly, I keep half expecting to open up a book you print and find that it not only has a full index in the back, but that it doesn't even have a chapter index in the front. That it just starts off right on page 1 (well, page 1 after a dozen pages of ads, but thats another story) because it saves somebody $5 a week in salary expenses for the guy to spend 20 minutes typing it out.
Hellcow 10-17-05, 02:01 PM	The problem I see here is paying PREMIUM prices for soucebooks products on "Trial Writers". Well, an important question is how you define "trial writer". I think it's hard to argue that Bruce Cordell, David Noonan, or Jesse Decker are inexperienced writers. Bruce is arguably the authority on psionics, and I would say that by bringing him in to work on the psionic material in MoE (which I am assuming he did), WotC felt that they WERE giving you a "premium" writer. Now: Does Bruce love Eberron? Is he excited to work on more Eberron books? I have no idea, and I think one could argue that Bruce himself would need to work on the setting to find that out. This is my point about "trial writers." Obviously you want to be certain you're using talented people, but you also want to find the people who have the greatest affinity for the setting, and that may take time. its the appeareance that WoTC is letting anyone with an hour of spare time to write for the setting... Is this really the impression you have? Obviously you're entitled to it if it is, but again, to me, getting the designer of the XPH to work on psionics in an Eberron sourcebook doesn't feel like they are grabbing just anyone.
Hellcow 10-17-05, 02:11 PM	I would be willing to pay these higher prices, *IF* there was a core team making the material. I would be willing to cut the new guys some slack, *IF* their stuff didn't cost as much as they do. Fair enough. I'm not trying to downplay your concerns (and like you, Edymnion, I'm using "you" to mean the broader audience): I'm simply suggesting that you try and focus on specific problems and possible solutions.
Lurkalot 10-17-05, 02:15 PM	Actually, I think most of that is pretty easy to make yourself, as a DM. So I disagree. I'd say that I'm one of the more inventive DMs and I think I have a knack for the breathtaking scenery. But I'd still like to see more of a focus on modules and locations. I don't want quantity in my campaign setting. I want quality. To illustrate what I mean, I see the campaign setting as a piece of artwork. Something like Forgotten Realms is congested, unbalanced and has no overall feel. Parts of it are comic book, parts of it are pastel - it's a mess. Eberron wiped the canvas clean and has painted a simpler and more consistant picture, something that fits together naturally and is easier on the eye. It's as much made by the empty spaces as it is by what's there. I like the balance of it. The new source books look like they might be pushing it towards the Realms style of "Let's cram in new stuff upon new stuff." Soon, it'll become the same mess that FR is, with the same lack of overall vision. The only viable compromise I can see between WotC's need to pump out more books and the Campain Settings need to stay coherent, is to focus on more depth. Give us more detail on what is already there. Gripping adventures are a good way to do this. After all, clearly we all love the original material. Rather than trying to whip up excitement about something new, give us more information on what we're already lapping up. The ECS showed us how interesting a vanilla hobgoblin or a plain old dragon could be. WotC should pay attention to the lesson of their own products. To return to the original point - yes, I can produce my own adventures and breathtaking locations. I'm very good at that. But I also hold down a full-time job, have to study too, and don't have a legion of talented artists, map-makers and writers to draw on like WotC does. With their time, resources and experience, WotC can do it better. Don't give me new stuff. Give me more of the same! Um... please.
REN 10-17-05, 02:21 PM	I would like to chime in here... I'm not all that picky when it comes to the books, although I see the concerns most have about consistency. The bit about the missing index is a big problem for me however. I don't read the books cover to cover (except the novels ofcourse) but I chose to use it as reference material when I need it. With that said, I won't catch or care too much about many of the inconsitencies. However, if people are taking the time to complain about a setting they really like, then WOTC should stand up and listen. Perhaps by begining to release less books so they take more time to review and correct mistakes. This will also allow for an index to be put together. The bussiness decision here is either put out lots of books short term to get more sales and risk losing loyal fans, or put out less books with better quality and retain the fan base over a longer period of time. I think it's a no brainer! For me, I would rather see an adventure a month for 9$ then a source book every 3 months for 30+$. conclusion... More adventures please, and take the time to properly edit source/core books. thanks!
Golbez57 10-17-05, 02:44 PM	Two features of future Eberron sourcebooks that I'd enjoy and find valuable: 1) Sample encounters for different regions of the world, be they specific locales, settlements in cities, or mostly uncharted areas. I'm envisioning these as a page or so in length This ties in with the idea of "more adventure-specific stuff" suggested by others, above. 2) "Transitions" between these places would also be most excellent. I'm imaginging that these would be tied into the sample encounters. For instance, it'd be immeadurably helpful to know what one would encounter when moving between the Talenta Plains and the lands of Valenar beyond the Blade Desert. I don't need a map showing a Valenar scout encampment. What I would like to know is how many scouts would be in camp, how many would be in "in the field", and their general tactics and mannerisms. At the same time, how would they interact with--or avoid--halflings in the area? For these sorts of features, start with some in-character, italicized exposition about the smells, the feel in the air, the things that'd just been encountered in one land. Then, compare and contrast as a new land is entered, including the sorts of things polt noted above when describing the stuff that was sadly missing from Five Nations (in my opinion, an otherwise enjoyable book... especially enjoyed the section on Aundair). Speaking of which, the "common phrases and expressions" sidebars for Five Nations is just the sort of thing that I'm talking about. As a DM and a player, I love the details. If I went to market in a typical Karrnathi village, what sorts of things would be sold at market? In the Demon Wastes, where do most adventurers brave enough to poke around there make camp when they rest? What's the one thing that strikes a person as they approach a Lhazaar port for the first time? I've purchased all of the Eberron materials so far, and enjoyed them all in one way or another. However, a bit more blended fluff-and-crunch would be fantastic, especially as it relates to being able to bring the settings for adventures to life! As for dream products, I'd pay for a sourcebook devoted to Sarlona; it would've been awesome if it was released as a companion to Complete Psionic, but alas....
Strae Wolfe 10-17-05, 02:52 PM	Forgive me if those comments sounded boorish. I used your terminology and paraprasing to the term "young writers" seemed to be inferring of "several inexperienced writers getting a shot to write for the setting" if that was inaccurate, my apologies. And while certainly all the writers you mentioned can not be considered "inexerpeinced" I think the point being the AMOUNT of collaborators involved make for a less than mellifluous conveyance of ideas relating to the setting. My speculation being that time was a determining factor as to how many and how much any particular contributor has to devote. How unfair is it to speculate that a company would say "Just throw something together and slap the Eberron name on it and it will sell."? The proof as they say is in the pudding.
jonthegm 10-17-05, 03:19 PM	Let's forget the nitty gritty, or what a "typical guardsman at this and this town" is statted like. We need more prestige classes, spells, magic items, and rules like we need to get shot in the face. We need more published adventures. The RPGA sucks.
polt 10-17-05, 03:24 PM	Njah, I don't like published adventures.
MadLetter 10-17-05, 04:25 PM	5% Spells 5% Equipment 5% PrC, Feats, Skills 5% Monsters 5% Sample Encounters, NPCs, Locations 25% Details (shortstories for example, fineworks in the next thing:) 50% Background That's how I'd like it. Like his you've got a nice few goodies, monsters, Char-Options and Examples, AND: You have a good grip on what Eberron is, how each thing interacts with each other and about all the stories of past and present. I for my part would like more Infos on Dhakaani and the Reaches for example.. Background-Stuff and maybe a few examples what there could lurk for my players... Until now, I think the published books were pretty good. In detail, I'd say that 5N could've had more Infos on the Lands.... The ExHb was fairly usefull, for my party travels nearly nonstop... Well.. all in all I pretty much love Eberron... Let's hope I'm not disappointed in the coming months ;)
DarkWarriorKarg 10-17-05, 04:34 PM	Oh, I might get flamestruck for this... But I'd rather have crunch in the sourcebooks, with some background info (about 60/40) And have the novels contain the fluff. But that will not happen. More published adventures would be nice...
The White Sorcerer 10-17-05, 04:40 PM	Obviously, Keith can't do everything. However, optimally, one of the following names would appear on the cover of any Eberron book: Keith Baker, Bill Slaviscek, James Wyatt, and Chris Perkins. While Master Baker might be Eberron's father, the other three guys were the midwives.
WarlockDa 10-17-05, 04:41 PM	More information on things already put into the setting would be great. Remember in the begining Xen'Drik was the "DM's land to play with",...not 95% of the core setting. Let's take a look at the maps printed and start getting information on areas shown there. I'd happily, even gleefully purchase a book that was 100% informational and not a single skill/feat/race/class/Prc in it. Take a look at Privateer Press' Iron Kingdom's as an example,.. Book 1 was $50, about 400+ pages, 98% crunch. Book 2, again $50, about 400+ pages (seems thicker though), when I looked through it I saw not one single stat,...but more information on the lands and the setting than any DM could dream for. Now if you're going to slam PrC's at us.... please make since with them. Deadgrim....they hunt and destroy undead....yet as they advance they become some sort of Quasi-Undead ? WTF is that? That's slapping something together to make players go "hey this looks cool" yet having no real logic behind it. Not to be an ass....but have you even read your own guidelines to creating a new Prestige Class? now seriously as ppl are saying...I love this setting. I've bought every single sourcebook, novel, Dragon and Dungeon magazine that so much as mentions Eberron on the cover the week it hit the shelves. I've even bought way more D&D mini boosters than I ever planned to, simply because they have Eberron Minis in them. This is the first D20 Fantasy setting I've truely played since WotC took over,...until now I've only played Star Wars (my rant for that CF is on their boards) and this setting gave me a reason to get back into D&D,... I'd like you to keep it that way. I can live with books being editted by middle school kids,...no really...I own AEG's Stargate RPG,..I can deal with that. But let's not add new things to a new setting just because we don't want to take the time to research past publications and expand on someone else's concepts. You're writters,....if you're writting a novel that's part of a series (NJO is a good example of a long series with many different writters) .... don't you actually get the information on the books prior to yours? I don't expect you to read them...hell half the time other books may not even be printed yet...but at least look into previous information before slapped pen to paper.
Majorafire77 10-17-05, 05:27 PM	I think that WotC is going to have a big problem on their hands if they don't stop pulling this crap that they've been having fun with recently. No Indexes: What gives? Whoever made this decision should think twice about it before he gets the company screwed over. People have been fed up with this fact for a while and I wouldn't be surprised if some massive WotC boycott occurs soon because of this. Honestly, if it did, I'd join in. Lower Page Counts: Same thing as above. What the hell?! Higher Price: Why should we pay more for less pages of material with no indexes that is (in the case of Eberron esepcially) of lower quality than before? Eberron Material: Some of the Eberron material is good, but much of the rest isn't. I get the feeling that many of the writers don't really understand the tone of Eberron, seeing it as yet another FR/DL/GH no matter how much experience they have. Things like high-level NPCs all over the place in the books, as well as PrCs with prerequisites that only a limited NPCs in the world should be able to acheive (being presented as members of orders or guilds, such as the Knight Phantom in FN), are really starting to annoy me. I think that the root of all of these problems (though it's probably been mentioned before) is WotCs mass-production methodology towards D&D books. If Keith and other authors who "understand" Eberron can't be there to help out the authors who don't, then maybe WotC could slow down the production schedule a bit so that we get higher-quality material in the books. I like new books as much as the next guy, but I'd rather see higher-quality books less times per year than this crap canon material that WotC has been sending us very frequently. As for the other books, WotC should go back to producing products at the same rate as they did a while ago, with a decent page count (and index), better editing, a price tag that makes sense, and material that is new instead of rehashed and "updated for 3.5". Unfortunately that's not going to happen because the D&D department at WotC seems to be alright with giving the customers the shaft as long as they get their money. There's really nothing to keep them from doing that either; if the M:tG department (in contrast) started producing complete **** and the pros stopped playing then one of WotC's biggest cash cows would topple over and die. Is there any way to stop them short of completely boycotting their stuff?
Euangelion 10-17-05, 07:18 PM	Opinion was asked for, so I'll give it. One thing I don't like is redundant material between different sources. For example, the Argentum in Thrane from 5N. Seriously, of all the possible organizations that someone playing a character from Thrane could want to be part of, that's got to be at the low end of the stick. Come on, where's the Knights of Thrane? Where's the "heresy investigators?" Where's the theocracy (a table listing the benefits of moving up the ecclesiastical ladder, for example)? What do we get? An organization for thieves, with the only benefits of being part of it is more cash when sellign magic items and "get out of jail free" cards!?! When most players decide to have their character be from Thrane, are they likely to think that these benefits are going to be the most important ones to that character? Uh, no!! On top of that it the drawback: if anyone finds out you are part of the Argentum, you're toast. Then, with the next book comes the Acquisitions Directorate! It's pretty much the same thing!! The Adaption section for the AD could have simply said "Similar organizations are run by the various governments in Khorvaire, including Thrane," and then there would have been room to describe the Knights of Thrane, a unique organization with unique challenges (balancing Church and state, how it handles SF and those who worship other faiths within its ranks, ., the benefits of being part of the Knights, if they have a "squire" system, etc. etc. etc., etc.) It's not that the information about the Argentum was bad, it just didn't fit with Thrane (at least it could have been the clandestine work of a corrupt Cardinal or something like that, rather than an unofficial official part of the theocracy). So once again it seems like the one who wrote it can put together good stuff, but doesn't necessarily have a good feel for Eberron, or at least the section he was working on. There you have it.
REN 10-17-05, 07:26 PM	Well... like I said in my previous post, they need less books per year with better quality. I've purchased EVERY Eberron book, module, Dungeon mag, etc... . Eberron got me into 3.5 cause I was a 2nd & 1st edition player. It also got me involved in collecting ALL the minis. I have over 1200 already and al sets complete. I got maps of Eberron all over my game room and they're incased in plexi glass. I read all the novels. I spent 18$ on the stupid Character sheets and I hate them - I didn't know what they looked like but they are Eberron so I bought them. I mean.... Eberron is the only reason I'm back into DMing and using 3.5 . What I just described to you IS THE PROBLEM with WOTC and EBERRON. We simply take whatever they give us, no matter if it's good or not. If it's EBERRON, then we gotta have it. They know this so they are hitting the market as fast and hard as they can. It's a business decision and a bad one I think. I can tell you (if anyone at WOTC is listening or cares) that I can't continue at this pace... 35$+ per book every 2-3 months (not to mention non Eberron Material) plus minis and all the other stuff I enjoy about your products. If the stuff gets repetitive or useless, I won't be the same consumer next year as I was this past year. I think a lot of people feel the same way. Of course I am not being forced into buying the products – I just like them. But eventually reality will hit and I’ll not care anymore that there are 6 more source books to be released next year. I would hate to see Eberron become over saturated with material and would also hate to see it disappear. There is a fine balance that must be maintained in order to keep the setting alive and as interesting as Day 1. MORE ADVENTURES!!! PLEEEEEEAASE!
Edymnion 10-17-05, 07:53 PM	If it's EBERRON, then we gotta have it. They know this so they are hitting the market as fast and hard as they can. It's a business decision and a bad one I think.Yes, we're at the stage in Eberron where the sales will make or break the setting (although, honestly, I think we're past the most critical stage for this, but we're still in the tail end of it). If a book doesn't sell well, the reflection will be on the setting as a whole, and not on the specific book. If a Faerun book falls flat on it's face, WotC can see "Well, they didn't like that one" and keeps going. If one of the Eberron books had completely fallen flat, it would have run the very real chance of taking the entire setting down with it. We're pretty much past that point now, but still.
Majorafire77 10-17-05, 07:55 PM	I can't believe that the people at WotC don't realize that they're digging themselves into a hole with all of the bad material that they're producing. Many people cannot keep up with D&D and other hobbies at the same time due to budget or time constraints, and it's amazing that WotC doesn't realize that if all they've been putting out is crap, then those people will simply stop buying D&D products and invest in their other hobbies run by companies who know how to put out new stuff that looks like someone put some time into it. If WotC brings D&D back to its former state (slightly lower prices, higher quality material, larger page counts, etc), then they won't completely miss out down the road when said person decides which hobby to choose and goes with the one that has good stuff. Maybe I'm just being stupid and this isn't as big a deal as I think it is, but I think it's a pretty logical argument.
PoeticJustice 10-17-05, 08:22 PM	Honestly, I don'tsee a problem with the line. It could use a little more focus on previously established material, but a bad day in florida is better than a good day anywhere else, if you catch my drift. One other little thing... Now if you're going to slam PrC's at us.... please make since with them. Deadgrim....they hunt and destroy undead....yet as they advance they become some sort of Quasi-Undead ? WTF is that? That's slapping something together to make players go "hey this looks cool" yet having no real logic behind it. Not to be an ass....but have you even read your own guidelines to creating a new Prestige Class? You're entitled to your opinion, but this is more than a PrC that looks cool. Becoming what you hate the most for the sake of its destruction is a staple to noir film and literature. Its as much a staple of the genre as a Dragon is to fantasy. Eberron takes aim at that kind of moody atmosphere, so I think the Impure Prince and the DeadGrim, while presented poorly, have place.
Edymnion 10-17-05, 08:34 PM	Honestly, I don't understand how WotC can fail to realize that D&D players *WILL* stop buying their product, without ceasing to play the game. We have the Out of Print boards. They're still filled with people who play 2e, 1e, or even the original sets. They haven't had a new book printed in YEARS, but they still play the game just fine. And honestly, at this point, I would be with them if it wasn't for Eberron. Anybody that has been on the boards for a while and has seen me around knows full well that I swore up and down that I would *NOT* be buying 3.5 books, because I thought (and still do think) that it was nothing more than a money grab by WotC because the original 3.0 sales had slowed down to a steady, sustainable rate instead of it's initial feeding frenzy. My 3.0 books still worked just fine, and I had no intention of giving WotC one red cent for something that I already owned. Then Eberron came along. I still never bought 3.5 copies of the core rules from WotC (I got mine at used book stores), but I do buy new copies of the Eberron books. I still own my 3.0 books. I still use my 3.0 material. I still run 3.25 games (3.0 base, with a few sprinkles of 3.5 thrown in). Eberron is the ONLY 3.5 material I buy. Period. And honestly, at the rate that the setting is already going downhill because of sloppy writers that don't know enough about the setting before they put pen to paper, I might not be buying them for too much longer. I mean, I'll be getting MoE here soon (soon as I find a place that isn't sold out), so I can't comment on it, but there are only three books that I consider to be "correct" enough to be part of *MY* Eberron game. The ECS (duh), Sharn: CoT, and Five Nations. Races of Eberron, except for a bit of crunch and the Kalashtar chapter, is worse than useless IMO, and it would have been better if the thing had never been printed. Explorer's Handbook wasn't bad, but there was pretty much nothing in it that is useful for my games in any way. Combine that with the low page count, and I honestly consider it to have been a waste of money. Some of the organization stuff was good, but overall, there was NOTHING in it that I couldn't have come up with myself. Oh wow, maps. Big whoop. I'm a DM. If I wanted a drow camp, I could have made one myself. What I want/need is essentially fluff, like what we got with Five Nations, or the crunch for things I couldn't make myself (like full out stuff for Sharn). I don't need new spells, I can make those myself. I don't need PrC just for the sake of PrC, I can make those myself. I don't need deck plans for an airship, I can make those myself. I need to have a better understanding of WHY the setting works, not how. I don't need new spells just for the sake of having new spells, I need to know how those spells affect the world they are in, and how people view them. I don't need PrC just for the sake of PrC, I need to know the organizations that go with them, and which part of the world they effect. And those organizations should make SENSE (as in, a generic PrC like "thieves guild" should not be stuck as a nation specific PrC for someplace that does not have a strong thief population). The Bone Knight is one thing, but making a generic artificer PrC into something that only a member of House Cannith can take is another. Anybody with a bit of experience in this game can make crunch. Whe we need are explinations of what is already there, not a bunch of new stuff.
Majorafire77 10-17-05, 08:46 PM	Honestly, I don'tsee a problem with the line. It could use a little more focus on previously established material, but a bad day in florida is better than a good day anywhere else, if you catch my drift. One other little thing... Yup, but the problem is that we've been getting rainy days in Florida ever since S:CoT had no index, and the skies don't look like they're clearing up. I honestly am not too crazy about new material for the next year or so that Eberron is out. I'd rather see the authors build on and expand the material that we have now. A Xen'drik sourcebook is cool, but do we really need it when we know next to nothing about the Cold Sun Tribes, the Shadow Marches, or what goes on in the Talenta Plains? I think not.
Reinforcements 10-17-05, 10:26 PM	Now, I agree that there are some problems, and some books aren't as good as they could be. Constructive criticism is always good. But, while I don't know how the people at WotC feel, I know that I would take threads like this more seriously if everyone dropped the insulting attitude and insinuating that WotC isn't even trying to proofread or that the authors don't have and single clue what they're doing, etc. Maybe I'm being unfair and irrational, but when someone says something like, "I can live with books being editted by middle-school kids," it makes me want to disagree with him out of spite, or at least just tell him to shut the hell up (and this goes for everyone who says things like that, I apologize for singling that one guy out). As for me, I would ask them to pay extra-special attention to stuff about the world - background info, famous NPCs and organizations, that sort of thing - because that's the stuff that can screw up a setting if you're not careful. Put it in, gods yes, but tread lightly. Crunchier things like prestige classes, feats and spells are great because they are all pretty much by-definition optional. Everything should be as good as possible, of course, but it's that sneaky background stuff that needs to be especially quality. Maybe that's the answer with authors new to Eberron - have the new guys make some spells and feats and the like and have the ones who really know Eberron do more of the fluffy stuff. Oh yeah, and put in indices. Please. :D Justice rocket backpack rocket rocket. Fire.
REN 10-17-05, 10:29 PM	A Xen'drik sourcebook is cool, but do we really need it when we know next to nothing about the Cold Sun Tribes, the Shadow Marches, or what goes on in the Talenta Plains? I think not. Good point. I don't need new spells, I can make those myself. I don't need PrC just for the sake of PrC, I can make those myself. I don't need deck plans for an airship, I can make those myself. Not interested in new spells or PrC, but maps and deck plans are always a good thing. I think explaining the parts of a ship is cool and saves some of us DMs from having to do it ourselves when we have limited time. Anything to help speed along the prep of an adventure or inspire us to come up with adventure ideas is a great thing. Extra or new fluff such as spells and PrC and Feats and other such stuff is not needed for this DM. I guess it gets tricky to please everyone!
Edymnion 10-18-05, 12:03 AM	Anything to help speed along the prep of an adventure or inspire us to come up with adventure ideas is a great thing.Its a point of view thing. For me, every page that is filled with something I could have done myself without too much effort (like layouts for abandoned giant temples) is a page that wasn't filled with something that I couldn't do for myself (not without potentially screwing things up). I would rather have have space taken up with things that bring new depth and flavor to the setting, from which I can make the crunch as needed, than to be given crunch and expected to try and squish it in as best I can. As in, PrC crunch is essentially worthless to me without the flavor for how to encorporate it. Sure, I can take the crunch and make up the flavor text to go with it (I do that with a great deal of non-eberron specific material), but the point is that, in a core line book for the setting, I shouldn't have to be stripping things and rebuilding them just to make them work. Core books for a setting should already mesh together quite easily without wholesale rewrites by the players. For example, the Cataclysm Mage from Explorer's Handbook. What the hell is up with that? Their capstone ability is that one puny little mortal can completely override millenia of the world's most basic underlying properties, and manifest whatever dragonmark they want? Uh, no? Especially not when it makes it just as easy for them to manifest the Mark of Death, or any of the uber Abberant Marks, which there are no stats for (and which should not have stats). I mean, even the Dragons themselves don't fully understand the prophesy, how the bloody hell does a HUMAN not only get a rudimentary understanding of it, but SURPASS the dragons in a few dozen years, when the best dragon scholars can't even come close after thousands of years of study? It saddens me that I've had to ban a PrC from the core Eberron books because of the fact that it doesn't fit the setting, but there it sits. I'm sorry, but anybody that had read the setting enough to know what a dragonmark is should have known that one wouldn't fly, but it still got printed. Some may say I'm just ragging on people, but those that watch what I post will know that I give praise just as freely when it is deserved. Eberron is the best damned setting that I've seen in many a year, because it focused more on bringing a unique breath of fresh air to the game. It saddens me to see, especially this soon, that some of what made the setting so special, so unique, is already being left behind. High level NPCs in every book in a setting where people were supposed to be low level, and have actual NPC classes. Books with spells that have more lvl 8 and 9 spells than they do level 1 spells. A setting where death actually MEANS SOMETHING, and then somebody plops an alter of ressurection into the game with a no questions asked "Gimme gold, and I'll bring them back for you". Drow getting presented as a perfectly acceptable choice for a PC race, despite being a highly xenophobic secretive race on the other side of the planet. The Mournlands being a place scarey enough to keep even Epic level characters stay on their toes for fear of a bunch of zombies, which has degraded into "How can I circumvent that annoying little restriction and heal normally?". Maybe I'm just a hardass, but for me, it was the "This isn't your normal D&D game. Things are differant here. Deal with it." was one of the biggest draws. It just really saddens me to see how things are slowly being watered down into making Eberron "just another setting" instead of allowing it to remain unique, and potentially even growing more-so. Its not the crunch that makes this setting so great, its the flavor. Tree hugging hippy orcs. Vicious warrior elves. Halfling barbarians. Dwarven bankers. Everything that just turned 30 years of D&D on it's head, and made the setting stand out as being something that had never been seen before (at least not outside of homebrews). Eberron had so much... personality, that it just hurts to watch it get processed and homoginized and sterilized, shoved into a neat little plastic bag, and marketted to the masses. No WotC, you can't make a setting that everybody is going to love. What makes us love Eberron is precisely what makes the others hate it. If you try to water things down to get both sides to buy it, then all you've done is alienated those who loved it, and the original haters aren't going to magically convert because you dumbed it down. All you're going to end up with is a bland piece of crap that nobody wants to play in. To quote a Bible verse, Revelations 3:16, "So, because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold - I am about to spit you out of my mouth."
Moria 10-18-05, 12:52 AM	Two things I consider important: 1. The new books are exploring new things, adding stuff to the setting. Which is fine... but that is not what I need. I need you to finish all the good work that you started in the ECS. There are tons of things that need more information. 2. Please, please: read what has been written before. It is annoying for us to have contradictory information. I know it is impossible to know everything, but if you are going to write about Aerenal, please ask the editors AND Keith about the relevant stuff. It won't kill you.
Hellcow 10-18-05, 01:13 AM	A Xen'drik sourcebook is cool, but do we really need it when we know next to nothing about the Cold Sun Tribes, the Shadow Marches, or what goes on in the Talenta Plains? I think not. Well, the Player's Guide to Eberron comes out first, and it DOES cover the Shadow Marches and Talenta Plains; I'm afraid it doesn't add much about the Cold Sun tribes, but they are at least mentioned. But the issue is that SOME people have specifically asked for a Xen'drik book. At the Gen Con seminar, Chris and Bill asked what people wanted to see; there was strong support for a Xen'drik sourcebook and a book about the Last War. So don't damn WotC for not listening to the audience, because actually in this case they are: tell them what YOU want to see and why, and hopefully they'll listen to you. I think a sourcebook on the wild lands of Khorvaire is a good one. I think they chose Xen'drik first because it's so vast, so full of possibilites, and already described as a potential source for truly ancient magic - a chance to touch the history of the Age of Giants. Plus, of course, it's the setting for things like Dragonshard, D&D Online, The Shattered Land, etc, so it's a chance to discuss some of the things raised in those sources. And again, it is designed as a RESOURCE, not as a "We are going to nail everything in Xen'drik down and leave no room for your imagination." But that's why I asked before. Sarlona is completely undefined. What would you rather see: A Sarlona sourcebook, or a "Wild Khorvaire" sourcebook? Speak up and your opinion may make a difference!
polt 10-18-05, 01:46 AM	I for one would LOVE an Xen'Drik book.
ekomega 10-18-05, 01:50 AM	I'm afraid my statements going to sound like everything everyone's already said, but let me share a personal anecdote. I was very reluctant to switch to 3.0, or even 3.5, and didn't until about a year and a half ago, long after both product lines were released. I went out and bought most of the books. I ran a 3.0 FR game, and didn't like it very much because of the amount of published material I felt I had to sift through. Then Eberron came along. There was only one book, and I loved it. I read it so many times. Every bit. It was so different. I decided to run Eberron games, and never go back. When S:CoT came out, I bought it online without even checking it out. Didn't read a word, just bought it. I figured it's Eberron, and written by Keith, so it must be good. Several months later, I did the same thing with Races of Eberron. Man, was I disappointed. I wish I had read the book first, wish I had spent time with it. It wasn't horrible (I consider Races of Destiny to be horrible), but it didn't really fit with anything else. It wasn't great, and not the quality I expected after the greatness that I thought was S:CoT. After RoE, I vowed not to buy any more books without reading them thoroughly. Now, to feel like I am getting my money's worth, and not ripped off, I spend about an hour and a half in my LGS reading through the books when they come out. I don't think they like it, especially when they ask me every five minutes if I "need help". But I'm not just going to throw down $30 on something that sucks. I check the forums now and buy books after the release date to see what everyone's comments are, to hear from those who may have made the mistake I had with RoE. Being an informed consumer is a good thing. But I feel like buying a book without checking out everything, and making sure it's good, is sabotaging myself and my wallet. I have a nice disposable income, but that doesn't mean I like to throw my money away. I shouldn't feel like this when purchasing products from a company that I am very loyal to, and whom I used to trust to produce quality products. What if Mercedes Benz put out a car that was as bad as the Pinto? Would anyone expect their customers to stay loyal and continue buying their cars? They had made the best cars, and then they made something that was garbage. This is how I am beginning to feel about WotC, and every new book does very little to fight that (I only am counting Eberron material here). I think more than hurting Eberron and this particular product line, across the board WotC is making their customers lose loyalty, making people think twice about buying books, and that is the last thing I think everyone wants. Consumers (and customers) like to find a company and stick with it. They like to know that they can buy something and not have to worry about it being good, it will be good because it's by this company. Think about other products, and you can think of brands you'd label as "great" and others you'd never buy. Please improve the quality of your products, WotC. I can go the rest of my life without buying more RPG books. I have so many already. But you can't go on selling products that no one buys, or producing low quality products. Do you want to be the "generic" version of RPG books? Like Vons cola instead of Pepsi? I'd love to buy more great Eberron books. Really. I want to give you my money. Please allow me to do it by doing a better job. Everyone likes to bash the editors, myself included. Here's my solution: Hire another editor. Not to replace anyone, but to work with the current editor. I'd like to think your editors are overworked, but are very good at doing their jobs (I hope). But one person can only do so much. Obviously your consumers are telling you they have a problem, one that needs to be solved. I think you need more editors, not better ones. And write indexes. And take the ads out of your books. I'm not paying you for ads.
maollelujah 10-18-05, 02:34 AM	I, for one, don't think the books have been that bad. and I actually think this is the best book out since the Campaign Setting. (CoTS is nice, but if you it is pretty useless if you aren't playing in Sharn. 5N isn't what is could've been and the PrCs and organizations take up way too much space. RoE isn't too bad, but not great. EH is my vote for 3rd best.) I do like some of the information in the Magic of Eberron and will probably use it (quori, dragonshard items, magic of Karrnath, some of PrCs, feats...) Some other things might prove useful (info about the dragonshards, Finders Guild, Crazy Count Vedim). But there are things that really disappointed me and that is mostly dealing with several of the stories, like the Elf/Giant one. I might be wrong but I had always had the feeling that there was a lengthly struggle before the elves fleed to Aerenal, but instead I find out a few suicide bombers using the Great Ghost Dance took out the Giants, leaving the elves to sail away in the night. I thought Purity of Power fluff was pretty cack too, as is the story about the stealing of the elemental binding secrets. Of course this kind of stuff is easily forgotten. As for what I would like to see in the future? Something more on the Quori/Inspired is high on my list. Xen'drik? Not that big of a deal, since ruins and Giants are standard D&D stuff. I wouldn't mind some good fluff on the History of the Eberron, but at the same time I am seriously leery of what would come out of a project like that.
Yasumoto 10-18-05, 02:36 AM	Although I agree that some of the WoTC published material seems a bit ... off, I want to step in and defend the Explorer's Handbook a bit. The Wayfinder's Tips, although obviously not enough to justify the price of the book, were rather informative, and pretty darn hilarious. (How to Survive a Crashing Airship - need I say more?) As stated earlier, I do wish that WoTC would release more depth, and less breadth (more detail in a fewer amount of topics), though I think that anything that explores Eberron, be it fluff or crunch, can only allow more information for us to use and have fun with. But when this information is contradicted between sourcebooks ... we run into problems. I liked the idea of having a small core of people working on the Eberron material, sort of like the system used for Magic sets. They could ensure a streamlined, consistent vision of Eberron, and help out any new authors and bring them into the fold. P.S. - Thanks Mr. Baker, keep up the great work! EDIT: ekomega wrote: Do you want to be the "generic" version of RPG books? Like Vons cola instead of Pepsi? Very true. I also forgot about the problem with not including an index in books. It is ABSOLUTELY neccesary.
PoeticJustice 10-18-05, 02:51 AM	Hmmmm. Primarily, what the community posts on the board is new, kinda weird stuff. Assuming they watch the boards half as close as I think they do, I think Wizards may be getting the wrong impression from this behavior. Like they assume just because the content producers on these boards make stuff like Crystal Body feats, that's the kind of stuff we'd like to see. Think about all the psionic threads, and all the warforged stuff on the boards. How often do shifters or changelings show up here. Coincidentally, the official support for the Kalashtar and the Warforged is many times more substantial. Attn: Wizards of the Coast Please do not use your message boards as a focus group. Love, Thomas Liles
Strae Wolfe 10-18-05, 07:16 AM	I might not be totally awake yet so someone bonk me if I start sounding goofy. But, from what I gather if what we say is so important as to what ideas and sourcebooks gets published then why not this: Why not create an Eberron Community Census (Group, Counsil, Membership) where folks (community members)that REALLY want to help contribute can sign up for a WoTC generated emailing list where Eberron developers can send us polls that we can vote on via email. Poll responses help define exactly what the writers have in mind compared to what Eberron customers want without a lot of latitude of getting off on crazy ideas. Of course allowing elaboration on any ideas a ECCM (Eberron Community Census Member) may think is important. This type of uniform "voting" would suuuuuure take the frustration out of what we THINK the developers are getting and from who.
Golbez57 10-18-05, 08:46 AM	I might not be totally awake yet so someone bonk me if I start sounding goofy. But, from what I gather if what we say is so important as to what ideas and sourcebooks gets published then why not this: Why not create an Eberron Community Census (Group, Counsil, Membership) where folks (community members)that REALLY want to help contribute can sign up for a WoTC generated emailing list where Eberron developers can send us polls that we can vote on via email. Poll responses help define exactly what the writers have in mind compared to what Eberron customers want without a lot of latitude of getting off on crazy ideas. Of course allowing elaboration on any ideas a ECCM (Eberron Community Census Member) may think is important. This type of uniform "voting" would suuuuuure take the frustration out of what we THINK the developers are getting and from who. And if you were not a part of it...? Would that result in some more frustration? I don't mean to push buttons, but I think the dedicated Eberron players who were not included in the group, due to natural limitations of involvement in such a project, would feel an even more acutely that "this is not 'MY' Eberron", throw their hands up in the air, and move on to other things. Think about Keith's earlier statement that fan response at GenCon to the idea of a Xen'drik sourcebook was taken as a sign that they were on the right track in their setting development. The book was inevitable, and likely to come sooner or later due to tie-ins with other Eberron material, but if people at GenCon had said loud and clear that they wanted a sourcebook on House Cannith, where would we be? I agree that message board content should not be used as 'THE' guide to the creation of official material, as PoeticJustice pointed out seems to be the case with the large amount of Warforged material in the face of a dearth of Changeling info. However, I don't think narrowing the "focus group" would result in good things. The published materials seem to be steering us towards faraway lands and the exceptions to things as they are--"hey, check out this strange aspect of the Church of the Silver Flame; bet you didn't expect treasure-hunters!"--rather than more thorough exploration of why things are as they are in Eberron's "central" play area. If the posts here and elsewhere in the Eberron forums suggest anything, it's that, in general, players and DMs enjoy Khorvaire. I think we're willing and interested in going to those places, but not just yet. We'd rather vacation in the Lazhaar Principalities before buying a condo into the heart of Argonessen.
Strae Wolfe 10-18-05, 09:12 AM	I don't mean to push buttons, but I think the dedicated Eberron players who were not included in the group, due to natural limitations of involvement in such a project, would feel an even more acutely that "this is not 'MY' Eberron", throw their hands up in the air, and move on to other things. Think about Keith's earlier statement that fan response at GenCon to the idea of a Xen'drik sourcebook was taken as a sign that they were on the right track in their setting development. You think more fans more access to GenCon than their own email? Goodness, we are talking about signing up for a mass generated email. Not going to the WoTC offices to sign papers. HOLY BURNING CARIOCA Now that I contemplate it for a moment they have the ability to put polls up RIGHT ON THE EBERRON WEB PAGE.
Rake 10-18-05, 09:51 AM	In the spirit of making our voices heard, I suppose I'll chime in with my two coppers. Yes, there's a bit of an editing problem. Most book publishing companies don't have their stuff poured over by entire subterranian geek-clans with fine-toothed combs, so it might sound like WotC can't publish a material that's not rife with errors, but in reality it's just a matter of the fact that an error in a D&D sourcebook is different than an error in a "For Dummies" book. D&D crunch is akin to math, you make a mistake someplace and it can have consequences all throughout the system. I do believe WotC could do a better job editing and proofreading, both the fluff and crunch, but I don't think it's so bad as it seems (most of the time). Additionally, yes.. there are more PrCs and silly feats than you can shake a stick at in the sourcebooks these days, but complaining about it is not going change anything. At the end of the day, anything that makes the average Joe go "ooo... cool" sells more material. Necessary or not, redundant or not. And wether you think so or not... WotC knows better than you do what makes money, and they're going to print that and (more or less) only that. Every so often one or two of the PrCs is a real gem anyway, and even some the ones that aren't will probably have the opportunity to shine as a neat NPC at least once in your gaming life. A few pages of crunch designed to pacify the masses is no biggie. I do, however, have a big problem with the indexes. Slightly sub-par editing, forgivable. Annoying, but not infuriating. But this index thing? This needs to stop. How much can those one and a half pages cost you? Whose idea was this? How many times do you need to hear your consumers complain about this, over and over, on the boards? It's not a hard complaint to pacify! Print indexes, you sons of... *ahem* Pardon me. Anyhow, one last item. While we've got Mister Baker's attention on the subject, I'm curious... -exactly- what do you think about the quality of that Eberron material that does not have your name on it? Are you truly satisfied with it? Curious as to how you'd answer a direct question like that. By the way, Keith. Thank you for bringing Eberron to my gaming table. Fantastic stuff.
MrFilthyIke 10-18-05, 10:08 AM	A Sarlona sourcebook, or a "Wild Khorvaire" sourcebook? Speak up and your opinion may make a difference! Dear WotC, I want a Wild Koravaire for XMas, please. Thank you. Shane Murphy :D
MadLetter 10-18-05, 10:58 AM	But that's why I asked before. Sarlona is completely undefined. What would you rather see: A Sarlona sourcebook, or a "Wild Khorvaire" sourcebook? Speak up and your opinion may make a difference! Ugh that's a tough one... On one side, I'm pretty much "in love" with Kalashtar, Psionics, Quori and so fort... so my first "me" says: SARLONA!!! But on the other hand.. my player woun't go there for the next year or two... we're playing in the "wild Khorvaire"... Well... to say it clearly after a thught or two: Please give us more about Khorvaires wild places! The Reaches are great! ;D
The White Sorcerer 10-18-05, 11:01 AM	But that's why I asked before. Sarlona is completely undefined. What would you rather see: A Sarlona sourcebook, or a "Wild Khorvaire" sourcebook? Speak up and your opinion may make a difference! Wild Khorvaire would likely appeal to a larger audience. Sarlona, however, is a closed continent far away from Khorvaire (unlike Xen'drik, which is basically a next door neighbor).
D'Mar 10-18-05, 11:11 AM	Let's forget the nitty gritty, or what a "typical guardsman at this and this town" is statted like. We need more prestige classes, spells, magic items, and rules like we need to get shot in the face. We need more published adventures. The RPGA sucks. What an ass-backwards statement, seeing as mark of heroes has produced some pretty fine published adventures for Eberron.
jonthegm 10-18-05, 11:21 AM	What an ass-backwards statement, seeing as mark of heroes has produced some pretty fine published adventures for Eberron. Where can I acquire these adventures in book or pdf form? :rolleyes: Oh... that's right... you have to be part of the RPGA roll players club.
Edymnion 10-18-05, 11:23 AM	Attn: Wizards of the Coast Please do not use your message boards as a focus group.Its a damned sight better than using the RPGA, unlike they are doing now. Least the board goers give a crap about proper balance, instead of how badly they can break whatever comes down the road. I still think that actually bringing back the playtesters would fix a *LOT* of the problems we currently have with the books. Not the people that wrote the material, not someone connected to them, but a totally independant playtesters. Not only would they actually catch all of the honest screw-ups, but would also catch a lot of the flavor mistakes as well. Honestly, if we the normal players can find these errors on our first casual read, a group of honest to god playtesters would have found them, and gotten them corrected, long before the book ever went to press. If not full on playtesters, what about a voluntary review board? I know for a fact that these books are in PDF format during development, and that they get sent around to everybody involved (and even to the writers working on the next book to try and minimize contradictions). Have a group of a dozen or so actual players sign some NDAs, send 'em a copy of the development PDF, and give them a week to read it over and send back corrections. Or just give them two or three days, and do it several times. Essentially, Beta Test the books. As long as it was all done with hard time limits (as in, they've got their one week, they either get their reviews/corrections in within that time frame, or they don't, no extensions), it would add little if anything to development time, and would do wonders for balance and flavor correctness.
D'Mar 10-18-05, 11:39 AM	Where can I acquire these adventures in book or pdf form? :rolleyes: Oh... that's right... you have to be part of the RPGA roll players club. So what? It's free. Want a membership card?
jonthegm 10-18-05, 11:44 AM	So what? It's free. Want a membership card? Actually, I need the link. I got the card, but that's when the RPGA stopped talking to me. Also, I'm lazy. Also, I hate subraces. /edit/ Also, I just went poking around inside my RPGA account, and it says that to use the RPGA adventures, I need to make it an "RPGA event", or they'll stop giving them to me. I don't actually want to RUN these adventures, I want to pick them apart and use them for ideas.
makeshiftwings 10-18-05, 01:05 PM	I agree with a lot of what's been said here; Edymnion has clearly read my mind using his Kalashtar abilities at some points. Also, yes, INDEX PLEASE! Honestly though, I can't come up with a very firm answer on what would make me buy a bunch of new Eberron books at such a fast rate. There's already tons of Eberron info out there now that I've yet to absorb, I don't actually own Explorer's Handbook or MoE yet, and I don't feel any sort of pressing need for more info... the current slew of books is enough for all of my needs, especially since it's fairly easy to convert generic crunch PrC's and such from other books into Eberron stuff. So, of course, what I would like to see is fewer books, with better quality. But I can see how that doesn't make very good business sense. I think WotC will always want to push out as many books as possible no matter how many people say "Fewer books, better quality". Because, even though I agree the quality is getting worse, it's not really horrifically bad. They still have enough quality to get away with pushing for more quantity, so I assume that's what they'll keep doing. I think we were all spoiled because the lead-in book, the Eberron Campaign Setting, made a lot of financial sense to be "Quality, not quantity", since that one book would have a huge impact on whether or not the setting would take off. Somehwat similar to the 3.0 Core books, and 3.5, and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. So it made sense for them to spend a lot of time on it, and make the book as solid as they could. Now that Eberron's doing alright, it makes more financial sense for them to put one or two good ideas into each book, and pad out the rest with uselessness, because people will still buy the books for those one or two good ideas. The trick to getting a quality book is getting WotC to create something that, if successful, will allow them to follow it up with a ton of add-on books that don't need as much quality. I'm not sure what that something would be at this point, excpet for D&D 4.0 (or, god forbid, 3.75).
Golbez57 10-18-05, 01:29 PM	You think more fans more access to GenCon than their own email? Goodness, we are talking about signing up for a mass generated email. Not going to the WoTC offices to sign papers. HOLY BURNING CARIOCA Now that I contemplate it for a moment they have the ability to put polls up RIGHT ON THE EBERRON WEB PAGE. Nah, I don't think that at all. To be clear, I don't think the idea of the GenCon sampling group being representative of demand for a Xen'drik book was a good, as it represents a very small segment of all Eberron players. (I also don't think there's much demand for a House Cannith-specific book, with so much about that group already woven through the other books, but was just using it as an example.) I do not think that a relatively small focus group of people contributing thoughts by email or posts here or polls or whatever--by themselves--will provide the sort of feedback that they need, either, as each is composed of only a bit of the many, many people who are playing in Eberron. Sales figures, too, are deceptive. As stated by others, many of us are going to gobble up anything and everything Eberron, whether or not it ultimately turns out to be things we enjoy. And, ultimately, only some of those who are pleased or disappointed with a book will bother to come here to say so. I do think the direction of future publications needs to be set by lending an ear to as broad a sampling of the Eberron fanbase as possible. All of the above could be good sources, including your suggestion for a dedicated group of interested Eberron fans who are well-acquainted with the setting. Sign me up! So... my response wasn't meand to be so much of a *BoNk* as it might have seemed. It was early for me, too, heh. It's nice to see you at the Explorers of Eberron, by the way, Strae!
Strae Wolfe 10-18-05, 03:10 PM	Thanks G-man good to be with Hroth and EOE. I was in EoN in EQ2 but I really couldn't warm up to EQ2. About the conundrum with an "expansive" fanbase to receive feedback from, well that's is a bit difficult. I realize a lot of the peeps that vote with their cold hard cash doesn't necessarily frequent the boards but maybe that would a starting point. I would vote on a polls held here absolutely.
WarlockDa 10-18-05, 05:33 PM	You're entitled to your opinion, but this is more than a PrC that looks cool. Becoming what you hate the most for the sake of its destruction is a staple to noir film and literature. Its as much a staple of the genre as a Dragon is to fantasy. Eberron takes aim at that kind of moody atmosphere, so I think the Impure Prince and the DeadGrim, while presented poorly, have place. The Impure Prince concept I like...someone willingly and knowingly acceptting a portion of darkness into/onto them in order to defeat the same. Where as the Deadgrim appears to merely just hunt undead then slowly start becoming an undead themselves. Perhaps I've merely not read it closely enough or it was the manner in which it's presented,...but it just doesn't sit well concept wise. If these members are so fanatical in their hatred of undead,..the suicide rate would be 100% at 10th level of this class. It'd be like ol' Van Ritchen from the old Ravenloft 2nd, who hunted all manner of terrors, especially vampires after they killed his wife and child in front of him, becoming a vampire in the process of hunting them...merely because he hunts them. I'll make it a point to throughily read this class inside and out tonight thou...hopefully I'm just wrong :D
WarlockDa 10-18-05, 05:45 PM	But that's why I asked before. Sarlona is completely undefined. What would you rather see: A Sarlona sourcebook, or a "Wild Khorvaire" sourcebook? Speak up and your opinion may make a difference! Looking forward to the Xen'drik book. Wild Khorvaire is a must have / no brainer,.. I assumed it to be in the works after 5N simply because 5n was only 5 of the what 15 nations? A Sarlona guide just makes since, even though I don't even use Psionics in my games I'd support it. Of course a guide to Aerenal and Argonnessen would be great,..perhaps even include a chapter on Frostfell. Sourcebook on Kyber would be someone I'd like to see at some point as well. Basically there's a ton of of areas that are merely hinting at that could use to be covered. And of course let's not for get the most popular requests here: Indexes, Playtesting, and Proofreading/editting
Tainted Mage 10-18-05, 05:56 PM	More history detail! Such as the different Ages, but most importantly, the different races' history! And more Changling stuff. <3 Also, I like the idea of the different Shards being able to be put into a character for bonuses. Oh, and more history!
Majorafire77 10-18-05, 06:42 PM	But that's why I asked before. Sarlona is completely undefined. What would you rather see: A Sarlona sourcebook, or a "Wild Khorvaire" sourcebook? Speak up and your opinion may make a difference! Wild Khorvaire unless the Sarlona book was the best source of new, balanced psionic crunch this side of the XPH. My wishlist for a Wild Khorvaire sourcebook: 1) Index 2) 0 - 1 ads or the standard number of ads but with perforated pages for easy ripping. 3) A proportional number of pages to FN (FN covers 5 places with 157 pages, so an optimal WK book would have about 346 pages). 4) FN style (tons of fluff and hardly any crunch), but with less consistency errors per page, much lower-level NPCs, an emphasis on expanding old fluff as opposed to adding new fluff, and PrCs without prerequisites that NPCs in Eberron could never hope to meet. 5) Worked on by the authors of the ECS or with a lot of support by said authors. 6) Reasonable price tag. The ECS had a few less pages and was $40, so around $41 or $42 makes sense. 7) A small section (no more than 6 pages) giving advice for integrating things presented in other books with what had come out for Eberron up to that point. Stuff like what new domains work well with Eberron deities, how relics in an Eberron campaign could work out, etc... 8) Save room for other material by getting rid of the Breland and House Cannith material, releasing it to us either via WE or Dragonshard. I'm sure there are things that I'm forgetting, but that's a good start :) EDIT: Well, I guess some of the countries not mentioned in FN don't really qualify as "wild", so I guess I'd be alright with two sourcebooks of half the length for half the price but with all of the quality.
Argonel 10-18-05, 07:30 PM	I'll jump on the bandwagon that indices are wonderful things and should be in every book that gets used for references, and that more hellcow is good Now for a few of my own, in no particular order 1) More Rich Burlew. His material was what sold me on the explorers handbook 2) More sidebars / flavor text. Again it's pretty good in the explorers handbook also the Iron kindoms character guide does it well. Give me more material that gives me a view from the characters perspective. 3) How about a faces of Eberron book with a bunch of NPC's fleshed out with stats, and some personality or background notes, possibly even a character sketch. I would like a peasant, a merchant or three, a couple minor nobles, a major NPC, and an iconic adenturer from each region. ALso I'd like to see three of four 'canon' versions of the Lord of Blades. This would be a great way to show what the typical Karnn is like compared to the typical Brelander etc. 4.) More low level spells or modifications to existing spells. Perhaps a web enhancement with changes to HPB spells for Eberron. Ex. in Magic of Eberron Storm touch does extra damage if you have the Mark of Storm or Favored in House Lyrander feats. Extending that could be interesting. As an example that may need polishing, the spell mount could summon one extra horse per level if you have the mark of handling or favored in house Vadalis.
Majorafire77 10-18-05, 07:43 PM	1) More Rich Burlew. His material was what sold me on the explorers handbook *Nods* 2) More sidebars / flavor text. Again it's pretty good in the explorers handbook also the Iron kindoms character guide does it well. Give me more material that gives me a view from the characters perspective. Yes, stuff for a character's perspective is almost always good. More EH-style stuff like that. 3) How about a faces of Eberron book with a bunch of NPC's fleshed out with stats, and some personality or background notes, possibly even a character sketch. I would like a peasant, a merchant or three, a couple minor nobles, a major NPC, and an iconic adenturer from each region. ALso I'd like to see three of four 'canon' versions of the Lord of Blades. This would be a great way to show what the typical Karnn is like compared to the typical Brelander etc. So you're basically suggesting an Eberron-specific E&A? Good idea as long as they don't charge me anything over $15 for it. 4.) More low level spells or modifications to existing spells. Perhaps a web enhancement with changes to HPB spells for Eberron. Ex. in Magic of Eberron Storm touch does extra damage if you have the Mark of Storm or Favored in House Lyrander feats. Extending that could be interesting. As an example that may need polishing, the spell mount could summon one extra horse per level if you have the mark of handling or favored in house Vadalis. Interesting idea, but perhaps this should be a dragonshard instead of material in a sourcebook?
makeshiftwings 10-18-05, 08:12 PM	Here's what I think should be in a Sarlona sourcebook: - 3 new prestige classes for House Cannith members. You should change the lore so that Cannith has enclaves all over out there, and they are the ones who made all the psionic equipment for the quori. - A bunch of new Warforged subraces: Quori-forged, Mega-forged, four-forged, four-forged-and-twenty-years-ago, etc. - More drow equipment! Plus five or six drow prestige classes. - Oh, more Inspired Pretige classes, like one that makes them look just like a Quori, and they should have a big blinking arrow over their head that says "Evil!", and a lot of abilities like Spell-Like Ability (Psionics): Fireball 10/day. And it should be for like level 30 epics, but there should already be like 50000 of them and they are all in Sharn and stuff, that would be neat.
WarlockDa 10-18-05, 08:28 PM	Here's what I think should be in a Sarlona sourcebook: - 3 new prestige classes for House Cannith members. You should change the lore so that Cannith has enclaves all over out there, and they are the ones who made all the psionic equipment for the quori. - A bunch of new Warforged subraces: Quori-forged, Mega-forged, four-forged, four-forged-and-twenty-years-ago, etc. - More drow equipment! Plus five or six drow prestige classes. - Oh, more Inspired Pretige classes, like one that makes them look just like a Quori, and they should have a big blinking arrow over their head that says "Evil!", and a lot of abilities like Spell-Like Ability (Psionics): Fireball 10/day. And it should be for like level 30 epics, but there should already be like 50000 of them and they are all in Sharn and stuff, that would be neat. I do hope there's alot of sarcasm in there. :eek:
Majorafire77 10-18-05, 08:51 PM	I do hope there's alot of sarcasm in there. :eek: He's been around here for a while; I think that he would've been flamed away from the boards a long time ago if he honestly wanted stuff like that. four-forged-and-twenty-years-ago :rofl: :rofl:
Medesha 10-18-05, 09:24 PM	I know that the people I worked with on the Xen'drik book - neither of whom had worked on published Eberron material before - were great to work with and very excited about the project, and I think it's going to be a good book. Gosh, this top secret project just keeps getting secreter and secreter. :P I love how when I make up something new (rules, flavor, fluff, whatever), people complain that I'm adding stuff to a game that already has too much stuff. And when I expand on existing rules/flavor/fluff, I get complaints that I'm re-selling already published material to fill WotC's deep, evil pockets. Going into my Eberron project I read the boards faithfully, did my research, then said to hell with trying to please everyone and wrote the kind of Eberron book I'd use in my own game. Also, I think if Keith did any more work, he'd probably explode. Do we really want Keith to explode? Think about it.
MysticTheurge 10-18-05, 10:01 PM	and a lot of abilities like Spell-Like Ability (Psionics) No, that's just absurd. Everyone knows it should be the special ability "Psionics(Sp)." :D
Edymnion 10-18-05, 10:37 PM	Also, I think if Keith did any more work, he'd probably explode. Do we really want Keith to explode? Think about it.That depends on two things. 1) Could all the king's horses and all the king's men put Keith back together again? and 2) If he did explode, would candy come out? :D
Atlictoatl 10-18-05, 10:56 PM	I've been telling folks today that I've realized I may no longer try and run my campaign in Eberron. I love the setting, and I love the quality of work done on the ECSB and Sharn: CoT. The problem is that the setting doesn't come naturally to me; it's not the world I would run were I to make up my own world. This means I need sourcebooks. I need to be shown in more detail how I can describe life in Aundair versus life in Karrnath. I need to know local politics, geography, history, flora and fauna, climate. I need help better integrating the Dragonmarked Houses with the rich world they have so deeply influenced. For instance -- Sarlona I can do. I have some specific cultural and fantastical referents that I can use to flavor the land. But Wild Khorvaire? No idea. How do I make it different from the Silver Marches, or any other forested land on the outskirts of normal civilization? How do I make it the Eldeen Reaches, or Droaam, and not just generic hinterland? I need sourcebooks that will allow me to run a campaign in Khorvaire, and I frankly haven't been getting them from WotC's release schedule. So I'm strongly considering throwing in the towel. More and more I fantasize about my own world creation, instead of laboring to define what Newthrone in Q'barra is actually like, or what the overland trek there consists of. It's far easy for me to extrapolate the make-believe when it is *my* make-believe instead of someone else's, and WotC hasn't been helping me own Eberron. It's still too alien, too foreign for me, as much as I love it. It's different than what I'm used to, and WotC hasn't made it more familiar, they've just added more and more foreign and alien elements. Personally, I want sourcebooks within the first 12-24 months of the gameworld release that clarify and define the core gameworld. Granted exotic is part of the Eberron methodology, but get exotic after we've gotten a chance to settle into the world. All exotic all the time just = jet lag.
Fedifensor 10-18-05, 10:57 PM	This is very true. Bill Slaviscek, James Wyatt, and Chris Perkins were all deeply involved in the creation of Eberron, and they are all part of WotC. Many of the best ideas in the ECS came about through our collaboration, not from any one person. I know that Bill and Chris do review each book and do their best to make sure it matches continuity; if things occasionally slip through the net, well, it can happen. Anyhow, Bill does look at these boards when he can. So you do have a chance of having your voice heard. The key is clarifying your message: if you're not happy with the current Eberron books, how do you feel they could be improved? Personally, I don't think "More Keith" is the answer... but hey, if it is, you'll be getting it in the future anyway. I think that's the big difference. The perception is, Keith, that you're willing to back up your writing by explaining it, through the Ask Keith thread - heck, even your posts in this thread. I don't really see Bill, James, or Chris doing that on these boards. Heck, being full-time WotC boards, company policy may restrict what they can say here. Granted, the boards only contain a small percentage of Eberron players, but it would be nice to see them post a request like 'we want to hear what areas of Eberron you want fleshed out', instead of you saying that they might read it if we post those requests here. I think your writing for Eberron is better than that of Bill, James, and Chris - not because you originally wrote the setting, but because you continually talk with the players and get a good idea of what the playerbase wants.
Inkling 10-18-05, 10:59 PM	That depends on two things. 1) Could all the king's horses and all the king's men put Keith back together again? and 2) If he did explode, would candy come out? :DAnd 3) Can we use warforged components that are compatible with his Mark of Making? We can rebuild him, we have the technology...but we don't want to spend a lot of money.
Medesha 10-18-05, 11:55 PM	2. If he did explode, would candy come out? When Keith and I had our meeting at GenCon, some random passer-by threw cotton candy at us. Is that close enough? (It was green apple cotton candy. Mmmmmm.) Yes, I took candy from a stranger. My GenCon goals for next year include running with scissors and having fun and games until someone loses an eye.
barrymcw 10-19-05, 01:06 AM	I don't care how many times it's been said, it can't be said enough: These books need indexes. I will stop buying them if they keep not having them. WoTC, I hope that's clear. I will stop buying your books if you don't make them user-friendly. 'Cause the thing is, it's only going to get worse. Now when I forget the details of something I've read in one of the Eberron books, I only have to flip through every freakin' page of 5 different books. With every new book that comes out, it's going to be that much more work for me and - let's be clear here - gaming is supposed to be fun. If I want to do research, I'll volunteer at my local University. So, really, that's it for me. Indexes, or indicies, or whatever. Give them to us. Thanks for listening.
Medesha 10-19-05, 01:22 AM	*waves* Hi Barry! :)
barrymcw 10-19-05, 01:38 AM	Hey Medesha! It was seeing your name as the last post in this thread that got me reading it. I've not been on the boards much at all lately, here or there. It's nice to see a friendly face though. Cheers!
Archangel62 10-19-05, 01:42 AM	The reason I want indexes isn't even the labor intensive aspect, it's the fact that when I'm trying to introduce players to things in Eberron it gets tough to try to track everything when they all want to see something and I have to keep them from going through the whole damn book and learning things they shouldn't, so instead I spend almost a half hour to an hour trying to look stuff up.
LordVanduu 10-19-05, 03:11 AM	I've got to agree with the indexes thing. This is something I've been complaining about to my players for a while and they all agree. One of the reasons I enjoy all the earlier books is because it's easier to find information in them. If I had to choose between a book on Sarlona and a book on Wild Khorvaire, I'd choose Wild Khorvaire. I want both books really bad, but the information that should be in the Wild Khorvaire book is much more pressing and needed. After all, where are most of us playing, Khorvaire or Sarlona? Also, Medesha, you speak as if you have written parts of the books. Who are you and what have you written? Cause I can't tell at all... lol...
Argonel 10-19-05, 08:48 AM	*Nods* Interesting idea, but perhaps this should be a dragonshard instead of material in a sourcebook? I'm not sure where expanded/modified spells should go. ideally it would have been 3-5 pages of Magic of Eberron where each modified spell could have a two or 3 line entry stating that it work exactly as written in the PHB except for XYZ, I don't htink it would make a good topic for a dragonshard, but possibly as an Eberron expanded article? Making Players handbook spells unique in Eberron? Otherwise maybe it could fit in a magic of the houses article.
realdm 10-19-05, 09:33 AM	thats not the point of the discussion, i guess. the important thing is that Eberron lost coerency. You have an entire thread explaining so many mistakes, you can tell that the designers dont even follow basic guidelines. they dont even know that there are several moons. at least have Keith Baker setting general guidelines, for basic things such as the prices: Lyrandar docking tower(explorer): with a 120 GP meal you get a +2 bonus to diplomacy.. with 10 gp per night you sleep in the QUEEN SUITE!!! but then in the sharn web enchancement(lyrandar tower again) you find less important restaurants where you pay much more and dont even get a bonus.. and dont tell me that it is because Sharn prices are higher.. whats the value of money in eberron? nobody knows.. sometimes you spend 10, and sometimes you spend 300.. please organize yourselves wizards just as a sign of respect for the readers.. we are talking about 5 handbooks, not 300 , to reference.. laziness doesnt pay off.
makeshiftwings 10-19-05, 12:27 PM	I must agree. The point of this thread is "WotC needs to slow down and spend an extra week or two fact-checking and indexing their books instead of trying to pump out a new one as fast as possible every two weeks", and the thread has already been diverted into "What books should we make next?!!" The real answer is "It doesn't matter what book you make next, but there had better be an index in it."
Euangelion 10-19-05, 12:42 PM	I must agree. The point of this thread is "WotC needs to slow down and spend an extra week or two fact-checking and indexing their books instead of trying to pump out a new one as fast as possible every two weeks", and the thread has already been diverted into "What books should we make next?!!" The real answer is "It doesn't matter what book you make next, but there had better be an index in it." A week or two if we're lucky! Then there's the month is takes to rewrite that section containing the glaring consistency error, then there's the time it takes to adjust the rest of the material (like the index!!!!) to fit the new version of the section, and so on and so on. With more attention being paid to consistency from the beginning, then all the editors would need to catch are little typos, mechanical errors (along the lines of forgetting one needs to have a +1 BAB to qualify for Quick Draw) and things like that. I guess the bottom line thing that's frustrating to me is that Eberron is still a new setting. There's not that much written about it that's "canon" as compared to Greyhawk or FR, so part of me thinks that it really shouldn't be that hard to write new material that fills in the huge gaps still within the setting while remaining faithful to the tones, themes, and material that's already been produced. But another part of me reminds me that it's always easier to critize (and fun too, as Homer Simpson points out! ;) ) than it is to be the one actually creating the quality material, so my frustrations are tempered with a strong desire to make a positive contribution rather than just whining.
Majorafire77 10-19-05, 12:47 PM	Well, makeshiftwings, another problem besides for the fact that there aren't any indexes in the books is the fact that with each new book we're getting too much new fluff while the old fluff that's been getting the shaft for a while stays in the corner, untouched. I'd rather have a good book without an index than a bad book with one (though I wouldn't like either). Just to clarify for those who don't understand, when I say new fluff, I'm talking about things like the Argentum in FN (which hadn't appeared in any official source before that afaik) and when I say expanded old fluff, I'm talking about something like the Shulassakar dragonshard. The ECS had mentioned "benevolent Yuan-Ti" in that area, but the dragonshard brought it to the next level. That's the kind of stuff I want to see happen with stuff that we haven't heard about since the ECS. Euangelion: Sounds good to me. If everything is pushed back, then we'll have about a 2 month delay, but after that we'll be getting higher-quality material at the same intervals that we're getting the low quality material now, wouldn't we? I know that I can put up with a 2 month material break (especially since we'll be getting stuff like dragonshards anyway). As for mechanical errors, I could care less as long as the errata isn't longer than the book itself. I'm looking primarily for fluff in Eberron books anyway, crunch can be saved until we've gotten to the point where FR is now (if not a bit before).
Edymnion 10-19-05, 01:01 PM	Who are you and what have you written? Cause I can't tell at all... lol...She's had quite a few articles published in Dragon, and she's currently working on an upcoming Eberron book (I think she said in this thread that it's the Xen'Drik book). She's a good girl, I'm expecting good things out of her :) As for the error checking and extra writing times, hell, I've got the full version of Adobe, and I know those books get passed around in PDF format between the differant writers. WotC, I'm volunteering my time as an error checker, and hell, I'll even do the rewrites on it for free :D
The White Sorcerer 10-19-05, 01:32 PM	Medesha. Who are you? She is Amber E. Scott, Mistress of the Pipe. She is one of the authors of a future Eberron book.
MrFilthyIke 10-19-05, 01:55 PM	She is Amber E. Scott, Mistress of the Pipe. Explain the "pipe"...or the ignorant will let our dirty minds run with it... :P
Siran Dunmorgan 10-19-05, 02:10 PM	Also, Medesha, you speak as if you have written parts of the books. Who are you and what have you written? Cause I can't tell at all... lol... According to Giant in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/thegiant.html), she is a known co-conspirator of Kieth Baker's self-proclaimed archnemesis, Rich Burlew. Actually, she's contributed a lot of interesting—and useful—things to the Giant in the Playground site; it's worth taking a look. —Siran Dunmorgan
Hellcow 10-19-05, 02:10 PM	She's a good girl... Hey Amber, I never realized you were an adorable puppy! Whosagoodgirl? Whosagoodgirl??? But yes, she's written a number of great articles for Paizo (Ecology of the Will-o-Wisp springs to mind) and has recently finished work on a, um, top-secret Eberron project that's completely top secret and no one knows anything about. Yeah, that's the ticket. ;)
pilias_simber 10-19-05, 03:30 PM	Personally I like seeing the options added in many of the new books, when comparing the information in Eberron to that of other settings, namely Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms products I feel that much of the information provided is of superior quality, but I think that may be a bias as I don't really care for Dragonlance and only kinda like FR.
Inkling 10-19-05, 03:40 PM	As for the error checking and extra writing times, hell, I've got the full version of Adobe, and I know those books get passed around in PDF format between the differant writers. WotC, I'm volunteering my time as an error checker, and hell, I'll even do the rewrites on it for free :DSame here, I volunteer as well. All WotC needs is a fresh set of eyes to once-over the books before they're released into the wild. We (the fans) all have other full time jobs and we caught all these mistakes just by reading the material once...it's not like it's our JOB to know Eberron. It's the job of the writers and editors of your books to know your material. If the writers for Eberron material aren't interested enough in Eberron to read Eberron books and Dragonshards, then there are more than enough of us who would be happy to help. I mean the Aerenal story came out FIVE MONTHS ago, I'm shocked that no one who worked on the Magic of Eberrron took the 5 minutes to read the Dragonshard in the last 5 months before MoE was released. If it was only one or two mistakes in the last several books, I wouldn't mind, but it's multiple mistakes in nearly every single book WotC produces. Have you read the Races of the Wild? The editors sure didn't! They still haven't listed the mistakes in errata yet and that book came out ages ago. This is a systemic problem and it requires a systemic change. My advice to WotC: hire Keith Baker as continuity consultant (and take out your Axe of Firing and remove some of your half-blind slackers if you need the money) and/or let a couple fans read the books before they're released and save yourself a lot of embarassment and stop aggravating your customers.
Grymar 10-19-05, 04:12 PM	I'm late to the discussion, but here are my few thoughts. I have the ECS, Sharn, Races of Eberron, and Explorer's Handbook, but I regret buying both of those last two. Things just don't feel right and the lack of an index shows how little editorial care was put into them. Sharn also lacked an index, but that was the single low point of an incredible book. What I don't like are pointless PrC's that only seem to be there to take up a few pages. I currently have no plans to get Magic or Five Nations. Too much money for too little information. The quality of the books are just not where they need to be for me to justify the price. On the WK vs Sarlona book, please go for the Wild Khorvair. My game may never deal with the Inspired/Dreaming Dark and I currently have no plans of ever having my players head that way, but there is no doubt that this campaign and every future campaign will use information from the Wilds.
realdm 10-20-05, 05:19 AM	will you set a few damn guidelines and let people know that Eberron hasn't got only one moon??? its so shameful that people write books without even know what they are talking about.. everyone who has got even a minimal idea about Eberron knows that there's more than one moon! i guess five nations was a conversion of some FR book, and they just changed Selune with moon:.
Golbez57 10-20-05, 10:23 AM	Sharn also lacked an index, but that was the single low point of an incredible book. Maybe you've already snagged it, Grymar, but just in case you haven't... Yummy (http://www.bossythecow.com/sharnindex.htm)! Oh, and this is Amber (http://www.bossythecow.com/genconphoto05-23.htm). *sings "Wonder Woman" theme*
The White Sorcerer 10-20-05, 12:24 PM	will you set a few damn guidelines and let people know that Eberron hasn't got only one moon??? Ugh, I hate this. I think that the whole moon issue was just bad wording and an assumption that people had read the Crying Fields description in the ECS. But NO! People just have to assume that the author was ignorant and didn't know that Eberron has 12 moons.
realdm 10-20-05, 12:45 PM	white sorcerer, you defend the wizards because you can cast more spells? check in the accessories.. they talk about the moon more than once. please dont let me look for it once again.
MrFilthyIke 10-20-05, 01:37 PM	white sorcerer, you defend the wizards because you can cast more spells? check in the accessories.. they talk about the moon more than once. please dont let me look for it once again. I know in MoE there are referrences to mutiple full moons occuring...can't place a page, but know I read it.
Medesha 10-20-05, 06:04 PM	LOL, I'd forgotten about that picture. That was a sweet night. As for the super super secret project I did with Keith and Jason that's totally secret, it's not secret anymore! (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786939168/102-4603851-3014568?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance)
Medesha 10-20-05, 07:04 PM	Explain the "pipe"...or the ignorant will let our dirty minds run with it... :P Back in the day, (that is, 2 or so years ago on the WotC boards), there was a group of us who had signature weapons and battle cries/sound effects. We'd bust them out on threads when people annoyed us for various reasons. My friend Arturick had a shovel, which he'd use to hit people over the head with and then bury them in the backyard (hence, "WHAM! *dig* *dig* *dig*" I actually have a Wddd t-shirt...). Shogun Warrior had a giant hammer, and his battle cry was, "Begone, foul troll!" Ivellios Nailo had a rapier he used against those with poor grammar/spelling (I believe its sound effect was, "zing!"). And I had a lead pipe, and my battle cry was, "Pipe down!" /silly reminiscing
WarlockDa 10-20-05, 07:24 PM	Looking forward to July 11th then :) Although I'm not too thrilled to say yet another 160 book priced at $29.95,....but hopefully it'll be well worth it.
Majorafire77 10-21-05, 06:50 PM	If the author of this thread [WOOF!]ed this thread, would Charles Ryan come on by and provide his advice? He is the "Category Manager for RPGs" after all.
LordVanduu 10-24-05, 02:31 AM	Thanks all for the answers to my question. I definately look forward to reading your stuff, Amber. Golbez57: I'd kiss you if I could! Thank you so much for the link to the S:CoT index. And thanks to Keith and the rest for posting it. I hope you all see how much we want indexes... lol... Grymar: I've got to admit, I like the info that's in the 5N. I enjoy reading more details about each nation. What kind of stuff is in that book that people are seeing as being inconsistent? Actually, maybe I should read the inconsistency thread... lol...