Corruption in the Undying Courts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Corruption in the Undying Courts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Decree Of Boredom
03-23-06, 02:57 PM I'd like to know whether you consider it feasible for their to be a fairly substantial minority of corrupt clergy--and, perhaps, the deathless themselves--within the church of the Undying Courts. Of course, a religion worshipping actual live-ish creatures powered by pure life, a force generally associated with good, seems like it would be less vulnerable to corruption than, say, the Silver Flame or Sovereign Host. However, it seems to almost go against the spirit of Eberron to have something be incorrigible and pure. So, what do you think?
(Psi)SeveredHead
03-23-06, 03:25 PM There are two sources of corruption.

1) The clerics (or the church itself). There are bound to be evil-aligned Priests of Transition who still worship their ancestors and are loyal to Aerenal. Or at least more loyal to Aerenal than any other nations (but their greatest loyalty is to themself and their family). So an evil Priest of Transition might be greedy, but he wants to give power to himself and his line, not just to himself. (Nepotism and the like.)

2) The Undying Court might have corrupt members. Sure, they want nothing to do with undeath, and the rules make it hard to justify (the typical member does ability damage to evil creatures), but you could just change that ability's text slightly for evil members of the Undying Court.
Belabras
03-23-06, 03:54 PM I think an evil Undying is about as likely as a good Vampire. The very force that sustains their life pushing the being to be either good or evil. That said, I certainly think it's possible for an Undying Councilor to do evil either through misunderstanding, good intent, or prejudice of some kind. Having a good alignment doesn't always mean you are a good person.
realdm
03-24-06, 04:07 AM Personally I have infiltrators from the days of house Vol hidden in the court.
nyysjan
03-24-06, 05:07 AM it would largely depend on what you mean by corrupt.

the Clerics will follow the teachings because that is part of their faith, if they didn't, they would lose their faith and powers (on most cases, some might keep their faith but interpret the teachings differently).

the undying will have been chosen by the clerics and other undying who have investigated the supplicants in order to make sure that they are worthy, so most (if not all) of the undying will have the best interest of the aerenal and elven race in mind (some not quite so worthy might have slipped by, but peer pressure might change their outlook/actions to better suite the part of the undying).

Alignments would be mostly good, but there is no reason that there would not be some clerics and undying who are ruthless enough to warrant evil alignment, but even then they would be following the teaching (altough their interpretation of those teaching might differ from those of their fellow clergy/undying).

the undying do not have need for money and they already are on top of the hierarchy so there is little one might do to influence them by pribes, but favors might be used to sway their opinions/actions, but that does not necessarily mean corruption (why betray the system where you are on top, and are likely to stay there for rest of eternity).

the clerics might be swayed by pribes, but they woul not betray the unying council unless they knew they had no change to become one of the undying or if the pribe was enough to outweight eternity as undying (becomming a lich/vampire/ghost or other intelligent undead might work if the cleric has lost his faith (and powers), or become disillusioned/dissapointed with his superriors, but it would not be likely).
darkthought
03-24-06, 10:12 AM I'd think that the Undying Court wouldn't be corruptable, or at least they'd have enough checks and balances built in to make it difficult. Unlike the Silver Flame and the majority of other religions on Khorvaire, the writings would be open to interpretation. The holy books for the Church of the Silver Flame were written by a human translating what the spirits in the Flame said. As for the Undying Court, the "saint" that wrote a particular passage in a particular book isn't gone, you walk into Shae Mordai and knock on his door / crypt and ASK him exactly what he meant.

The Undying Court in my games is too alien and strange to be able to be corrupted. I like to imagine that in the past, a few not-so-good people made it into the Court, and might have caused a few problems. The Court has enough years on it to have enough effective options at its disposal to prevent evil people from becoming Deathless, and methods in place to purge the bad Deathless already in their midst. That doesn't mean that they order things to be done that could be considered evil, ala genocide of an entire family who were attempting to stop a war between the elves and the dragons. How many centuries did they two exist peacefully until the breeding of Erandis gave the Undying Court a reason to exterminate the line? Yes, Vol is somewhat tragic in my mind.

As for the priests themselves, they COULD be corruptable, but I highly doubt it. The true Priests of Transition are good, maybe neutral. The evil ones are the priests who are spys for Vol and the Dragons. I also further blur the alignments by saying a priest channels positive and negative energy from their FAITH, not their alignment. So we can have evil priests turning undead instead of dominating them. Likewise good priests of Vol dominate instead of turn.

The Undying Court is powerful enough inside Aerenal that any evil priest would have an EXTREMELY hard time surviving, I'd say maybe 10x harder than a similar evil priest of the Silver Flame located in Flamekeep.
Gez
03-24-06, 11:15 AM it would largely depend on what you mean by corrupt.
I'd say that people who worship a bunch of "we're beings of pure life energy but we look like rotten zombies anyway" pseudo-undead are corrupt from the start. :P
the Clerics will follow the teachings because that is part of their faith, if they didn't, they would lose their faith and powers (on most cases, some might keep their faith but interpret the teachings differently).
That argument holds exactly as much water for the undying court as for any other faith in Oblivion.
the undying will have been chosen by the clerics and other undying who have investigated the supplicants in order to make sure that they are worthy, so most (if not all) of the undying will have the best interest of the aerenal and elven race in mind (some not quite so worthy might have slipped by, but peer pressure might change their outlook/actions to better suite the part of the undying).
True, however mentality may change with such a transformation. Some may grow bitter being bound in the city of the dead. With their long, undead memories, old perceived slights may fester like an infected wound over centuries. And the best interests of Aerenal may not be the best interests of the Aereni, even less of the rest of the world.
Alignments would be mostly good, but there is no reason that there would not be some clerics and undying who are ruthless enough to warrant evil alignment, but even then they would be following the teaching (altough their interpretation of those teaching might differ from those of their fellow clergy/undying).
Exactly.
the undying do not have need for money and they already are on top of the hierarchy so there is little one might do to influence them by bribes, but favors might be used to sway their opinions/actions, but that does not necessarily mean corruption (why betray the system where you are on top, and are likely to stay there for rest of eternity).
Money and power is something you always want more of when you don't need them. And corruption does not have to work against the system. When you're on the top, your interest is in staying on the top, by preventing others from climbing. Also, in an eternal hierarchy, you may be at the top by being an undying, but there are older undyings that are older than you, and thus even higher in the hierarchy, and they will never retire.
the clerics might be swayed by bribes, but they would not betray the undying council unless they knew they had no chance to become one of the undying or if the bribe was enough to outweight eternity as undying (becomming a lich/vampire/ghost or other intelligent undead might work if the cleric has lost his faith (and powers), or become disillusioned/disappointed with his superiors, but it would not be likely).
Those are just a few of the possibilities. Remember though that they can be evil in other ways. Like deciding to eradicate the whole bloodline of Vol when it was known half-dragons (of this house at least) could bear dragonmarks. I've a hard time believing that every single third-degree cousin of a cadet of house Vol was part of the conspiracy, yet they were all axed because of some unexplained threat marked half-dragons were posing.
Maybe this was completely justified, but it's still possible something else, seeming as arbitrary as the destruction of house Vol, will happen another day, with equally valid justifications. It could be enough to cause undying deathless or clerics to rebel and fall, or it may cause the corruption of the whole Court.
dang
03-27-06, 04:06 AM okay, if you want it in your campaign, do it.

BUT, from a practical standpoint, i think it's functionally impossible to have high level corruption in the UC. not the OC, the UC. ;)
an ascendant councilor's magical abilities and basic nature are fundamentally opposed to evil. it has a consecrating aura, an evil-damaging, purifiying touch, and the ability to cast dispel evil at will, and quickened holy word 3 times per day. to be evil would be suicide. non-evil corruption would probably be impossible as well, since the ascendants comprise a deity by their combined essence. if one had ulterior motives, i think they'd all know.

undying councilors run into similar problems with their abilities. i think it's reasonable to assume they're highly tested as well, since it takes a lifetime of advancement plus a thousand years to prove themselves worthy.

i think corrupt priests might be possible, especially in khorvaire... but not in aerenal. the UC is the only faith in which *every* priest can both come face to face with her god, and meaningfully interact with it. i think the level of divine control and influence in such a situation would be incredible. if corruption exists in aerenal, the UC probably knows and is secretly manipulating it with some far-reaching purpose in mind.

and that's a plot hook.
Ellorin
03-27-06, 04:16 AM Besides, according to the ECS, no "flawed" elf is allowed to become a Court member.I believe that "flawed" among other things covers evil elves.A deathless was nonevil to begin with;turning to evil in his new state of being seems HIGHLY unlikely.Of course, living elves are a different story.Many will concentrate on the "great deeds" aspect and forget all about moral integrity.
Gez
03-28-06, 05:55 AM non-evil corruption would probably be impossible as well, since the ascendants comprise a deity by their combined essence. if one had ulterior motives, i think they'd all know.

Nah. The UC collectively is a divine force, but there's no hive mind.

the UC is the only faith in which *every* priest can both come face to face with her god, and meaningfully interact with it.

They're still individuals, it's just that there's a whole too. Like, say, Jedi. The Jedi Council is made up of individuals who may fall, but the Force as a whole can be considered a divine force, a religion.
dang
03-28-06, 12:09 PM Nah. The UC collectively is a divine force, but there's no hive mind.

They're still individuals, it's just that there's a whole too. Like, say, Jedi. The Jedi Council is made up of individuals who may fall, but the Force as a whole can be considered a divine force, a religion.

quote a source, please?

and i didn't argue for a hive mind, but there must be a mystical connection between them on some level. the ascendants don't even usually assume physical form. furthermore, they don't use the force, they ARE the force for millions of UC believers and priests. the plane of Irian doesn't grant spells, nor can an individual councilor -- they do it collectively, and that implies a group agency.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Decree Of Boredom 03-23-06, 02:57 PM	I'd like to know whether you consider it feasible for their to be a fairly substantial minority of corrupt clergy--and, perhaps, the deathless themselves--within the church of the Undying Courts. Of course, a religion worshipping actual live-ish creatures powered by pure life, a force generally associated with good, seems like it would be less vulnerable to corruption than, say, the Silver Flame or Sovereign Host. However, it seems to almost go against the spirit of Eberron to have something be incorrigible and pure. So, what do you think?
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-23-06, 03:25 PM	There are two sources of corruption. 1) The clerics (or the church itself). There are bound to be evil-aligned Priests of Transition who still worship their ancestors and are loyal to Aerenal. Or at least more loyal to Aerenal than any other nations (but their greatest loyalty is to themself and their family). So an evil Priest of Transition might be greedy, but he wants to give power to himself and his line, not just to himself. (Nepotism and the like.) 2) The Undying Court might have corrupt members. Sure, they want nothing to do with undeath, and the rules make it hard to justify (the typical member does ability damage to evil creatures), but you could just change that ability's text slightly for evil members of the Undying Court.
Belabras 03-23-06, 03:54 PM	I think an evil Undying is about as likely as a good Vampire. The very force that sustains their life pushing the being to be either good or evil. That said, I certainly think it's possible for an Undying Councilor to do evil either through misunderstanding, good intent, or prejudice of some kind. Having a good alignment doesn't always mean you are a good person.
realdm 03-24-06, 04:07 AM	Personally I have infiltrators from the days of house Vol hidden in the court.
nyysjan 03-24-06, 05:07 AM	it would largely depend on what you mean by corrupt. the Clerics will follow the teachings because that is part of their faith, if they didn't, they would lose their faith and powers (on most cases, some might keep their faith but interpret the teachings differently). the undying will have been chosen by the clerics and other undying who have investigated the supplicants in order to make sure that they are worthy, so most (if not all) of the undying will have the best interest of the aerenal and elven race in mind (some not quite so worthy might have slipped by, but peer pressure might change their outlook/actions to better suite the part of the undying). Alignments would be mostly good, but there is no reason that there would not be some clerics and undying who are ruthless enough to warrant evil alignment, but even then they would be following the teaching (altough their interpretation of those teaching might differ from those of their fellow clergy/undying). the undying do not have need for money and they already are on top of the hierarchy so there is little one might do to influence them by pribes, but favors might be used to sway their opinions/actions, but that does not necessarily mean corruption (why betray the system where you are on top, and are likely to stay there for rest of eternity). the clerics might be swayed by pribes, but they woul not betray the unying council unless they knew they had no change to become one of the undying or if the pribe was enough to outweight eternity as undying (becomming a lich/vampire/ghost or other intelligent undead might work if the cleric has lost his faith (and powers), or become disillusioned/dissapointed with his superriors, but it would not be likely).
darkthought 03-24-06, 10:12 AM	I'd think that the Undying Court wouldn't be corruptable, or at least they'd have enough checks and balances built in to make it difficult. Unlike the Silver Flame and the majority of other religions on Khorvaire, the writings would be open to interpretation. The holy books for the Church of the Silver Flame were written by a human translating what the spirits in the Flame said. As for the Undying Court, the "saint" that wrote a particular passage in a particular book isn't gone, you walk into Shae Mordai and knock on his door / crypt and ASK him exactly what he meant. The Undying Court in my games is too alien and strange to be able to be corrupted. I like to imagine that in the past, a few not-so-good people made it into the Court, and might have caused a few problems. The Court has enough years on it to have enough effective options at its disposal to prevent evil people from becoming Deathless, and methods in place to purge the bad Deathless already in their midst. That doesn't mean that they order things to be done that could be considered evil, ala genocide of an entire family who were attempting to stop a war between the elves and the dragons. How many centuries did they two exist peacefully until the breeding of Erandis gave the Undying Court a reason to exterminate the line? Yes, Vol is somewhat tragic in my mind. As for the priests themselves, they COULD be corruptable, but I highly doubt it. The true Priests of Transition are good, maybe neutral. The evil ones are the priests who are spys for Vol and the Dragons. I also further blur the alignments by saying a priest channels positive and negative energy from their FAITH, not their alignment. So we can have evil priests turning undead instead of dominating them. Likewise good priests of Vol dominate instead of turn. The Undying Court is powerful enough inside Aerenal that any evil priest would have an EXTREMELY hard time surviving, I'd say maybe 10x harder than a similar evil priest of the Silver Flame located in Flamekeep.
Gez 03-24-06, 11:15 AM	it would largely depend on what you mean by corrupt. I'd say that people who worship a bunch of "we're beings of pure life energy but we look like rotten zombies anyway" pseudo-undead are corrupt from the start. :P the Clerics will follow the teachings because that is part of their faith, if they didn't, they would lose their faith and powers (on most cases, some might keep their faith but interpret the teachings differently). That argument holds exactly as much water for the undying court as for any other faith in Oblivion. the undying will have been chosen by the clerics and other undying who have investigated the supplicants in order to make sure that they are worthy, so most (if not all) of the undying will have the best interest of the aerenal and elven race in mind (some not quite so worthy might have slipped by, but peer pressure might change their outlook/actions to better suite the part of the undying). True, however mentality may change with such a transformation. Some may grow bitter being bound in the city of the dead. With their long, undead memories, old perceived slights may fester like an infected wound over centuries. And the best interests of Aerenal may not be the best interests of the Aereni, even less of the rest of the world. Alignments would be mostly good, but there is no reason that there would not be some clerics and undying who are ruthless enough to warrant evil alignment, but even then they would be following the teaching (altough their interpretation of those teaching might differ from those of their fellow clergy/undying). Exactly. the undying do not have need for money and they already are on top of the hierarchy so there is little one might do to influence them by bribes, but favors might be used to sway their opinions/actions, but that does not necessarily mean corruption (why betray the system where you are on top, and are likely to stay there for rest of eternity). Money and power is something you always want more of when you don't need them. And corruption does not have to work against the system. When you're on the top, your interest is in staying on the top, by preventing others from climbing. Also, in an eternal hierarchy, you may be at the top by being an undying, but there are older undyings that are older than you, and thus even higher in the hierarchy, and they will never retire. the clerics might be swayed by bribes, but they would not betray the undying council unless they knew they had no chance to become one of the undying or if the bribe was enough to outweight eternity as undying (becomming a lich/vampire/ghost or other intelligent undead might work if the cleric has lost his faith (and powers), or become disillusioned/disappointed with his superiors, but it would not be likely). Those are just a few of the possibilities. Remember though that they can be evil in other ways. Like deciding to eradicate the whole bloodline of Vol when it was known half-dragons (of this house at least) could bear dragonmarks. I've a hard time believing that every single third-degree cousin of a cadet of house Vol was part of the conspiracy, yet they were all axed because of some unexplained threat marked half-dragons were posing. Maybe this was completely justified, but it's still possible something else, seeming as arbitrary as the destruction of house Vol, will happen another day, with equally valid justifications. It could be enough to cause undying deathless or clerics to rebel and fall, or it may cause the corruption of the whole Court.
dang 03-27-06, 04:06 AM	okay, if you want it in your campaign, do it. BUT, from a practical standpoint, i think it's functionally impossible to have high level corruption in the UC. not the OC, the UC. ;) an ascendant councilor's magical abilities and basic nature are fundamentally opposed to evil. it has a consecrating aura, an evil-damaging, purifiying touch, and the ability to cast dispel evil at will, and quickened holy word 3 times per day. to be evil would be suicide. non-evil corruption would probably be impossible as well, since the ascendants comprise a deity by their combined essence. if one had ulterior motives, i think they'd all know. undying councilors run into similar problems with their abilities. i think it's reasonable to assume they're highly tested as well, since it takes a lifetime of advancement plus a thousand years to prove themselves worthy. i think corrupt priests might be possible, especially in khorvaire... but not in aerenal. the UC is the only faith in which every priest can both come face to face with her god, and meaningfully interact with it. i think the level of divine control and influence in such a situation would be incredible. if corruption exists in aerenal, the UC probably knows and is secretly manipulating it with some far-reaching purpose in mind. and that's a plot hook.
Ellorin 03-27-06, 04:16 AM	Besides, according to the ECS, no "flawed" elf is allowed to become a Court member.I believe that "flawed" among other things covers evil elves.A deathless was nonevil to begin with;turning to evil in his new state of being seems HIGHLY unlikely.Of course, living elves are a different story.Many will concentrate on the "great deeds" aspect and forget all about moral integrity.
Gez 03-28-06, 05:55 AM	non-evil corruption would probably be impossible as well, since the ascendants comprise a deity by their combined essence. if one had ulterior motives, i think they'd all know. Nah. The UC collectively is a divine force, but there's no hive mind. the UC is the only faith in which every priest can both come face to face with her god, and meaningfully interact with it. They're still individuals, it's just that there's a whole too. Like, say, Jedi. The Jedi Council is made up of individuals who may fall, but the Force as a whole can be considered a divine force, a religion.
dang 03-28-06, 12:09 PM	Nah. The UC collectively is a divine force, but there's no hive mind. They're still individuals, it's just that there's a whole too. Like, say, Jedi. The Jedi Council is made up of individuals who may fall, but the Force as a whole can be considered a divine force, a religion. quote a source, please? and i didn't argue for a hive mind, but there must be a mystical connection between them on some level. the ascendants don't even usually assume physical form. furthermore, they don't use the force, they ARE the force for millions of UC believers and priests. the plane of Irian doesn't grant spells, nor can an individual councilor -- they do it collectively, and that implies a group agency.