Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ccerose 06-09-05, 12:08 AM	Is there anywhere in the ECS that lists the price for overland travel? I couldn't find any price guides for booking passage on airships or lightning rail. I thought I had read information about the cost of renting mage bred horses, but can't find it.
Shurijo 06-09-05, 12:14 AM	Traveling via Lighting Rail - Times, Distances, and Cost (http://www.wayward4.com/eberron/LR_Chart.txt) Shows departure times, distances, and cost for traveling using the Lighting Rail across Khorvaire. Traveling via Road - Times, Distances, and Cost (http://www.wayward4.com/eberron/Road_Chart.txt) Shows traveling times for various modes of travel, distances, and cost for purchasable transportation. I found these a few months ago and bookmarked the pages.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-09-05, 07:42 AM	All the information used in the above was found on page 121 of the ECS.
Cloud Divider 06-09-05, 09:50 AM	Just as a note - I started a thread a few months back on the cost of overland travel. I wish I could find it again, it had some very good discussion. :( One of the problems with the listed costs is that they're very high. IIRC, airship travel is 1gp/mile; lightning rail is 1sp/mile, and caravan is around 1cp/mile. When you look at actual travel distances in Khorvaire, those prices are result in a very high cost of travel. Even for an independently wealthy person, a round-trip flight via Airship from Sharn to Wroat (~250mi) is 500gp. Going to somewhere like Flamekeep (~2500mi) is 5000gp. Taking yourself and your family/party and a few servants/entourage? We're talking a veritable small fortune... Renting horses is a bit trickier of a proposition - on its own, the horse is pretty valuable (75-200gp, IIRC); so you'd need some kind of lien against the renter to ensure the animal gets returned. In the past, I'd generally handled the "rent-a-horse" by having the employer arrange something via a letter of credit.
Gurv 06-09-05, 10:56 AM	The thing to remember about travel costs is that important people get discount, perhaps even free, travel. Anyone House Orien/Lyrandar wants favor with (or to do business with), from nobles, to church leaders, to important members of other dragonmarked houses, might be able to get it for less. This reduced cost might be constant, or for a particular journey, varying on a case-by-case basis. This can be passed down to PCs who are working for such a patron. If they are on an important job for Lady ir'Tain, or Baron d'Cannith, you can be sure that these elite persons will pick up the tab for travel expenses, a tab that might never be called in by the Houses. This makes expensive traveling methods a "glass wall" (to use an old term), as it results in free travel in the direction that the plot actually goes, and impossible rates when doing it would go against the grain of the adventure. Another thing to consider is that both of the transportation networks in Eberron can carry a large amount of cargo. This makes it easier to see why such high rates for individual travel don't put them out of business for a lack of customers. Moving people from place to place is not where the businesses get the majority of their income; they could easily thrive on what they make on shipping costs. They don't need to transport people at all to stay afloat, and thus can charge whatever they like, knowing that people will take it or leave it without hurting them in the least.
ccerose 06-09-05, 11:08 AM	All the information used in the above was found on page 121 of the ECS. Holy macaroni! I guess that'll teach me to read more closely. :eek:
Cloud Divider 06-09-05, 05:25 PM	The thing to remember about travel costs is that important people get discount, perhaps even free, travel. Anyone House Orien/Lyrandar wants favor with (or to do business with), from nobles, to church leaders, to important members of other dragonmarked houses, might be able to get it for less. This reduced cost might be constant, or for a particular journey, varying on a case-by-case basis. That much is definitely a possibility. However, on some level, there's still probably some accounting going on, even between patrons of Dragonmarked Houses (perhaps especially Dragonmarked Houses). Orien's providing a service, and could very reasonably expect just compensation. So perhaps Orien authorizes 50,000gp in "travel vouchers" a year to the Brelish government. They'd probably expect at least 50,000gp worth of compensation (reduced taxes, or other less tangible goods). <WARNING: Discussion of Khorvairian Economics follows> One does wonder, really, what the operating expenses of the Lightning Rail (or any other semi-magical transportation) are. Do the coaches have a maintenance/upkeep cost? I'm sure maintaining the rail network itself is reasonably work- and supply-intensive (ensuring the conductor stones are all in place; repairing damage caused by floods, which may include replacing conductor stones). So the Orien would need to recoup those costs at the very minimum. That upkeep cost will ultimately determine what the resource cost of lightning rail transportation is. If maintaining the Sharn-Wroat leg of the rail network costs (absolutely arbitrary numbers to follow) 10,000gp/year, and maintaining/staffing 5 coaches costs 20,000/year, Orien would need to make at least 30,000gp/year in transport fees, plus a bit to cover the initial cost of the coach and conductor lines amortized over time. </Economic discussion> This makes expensive traveling methods a "glass wall" (to use an old term), as it results in free travel in the direction that the plot actually goes, and impossible rates when doing it would go against the grain of the adventure. The glass ceiling isn't a bad notion - but I still feel it's a bit high. Even reducing the cost to 1sp/mile makes the Sharn-Wroat trip cost 25gp either way, which still limits travelers to mostly the middle class (because 25gp is a half-year's rent for a poor commoner - and it's easily a month's rent for the middle-class as well). So while yes, it does help act as a Plot Steering Device (PC's can only afford to travel in the direction of plot), it's also rather limiting on the plot as well (...because it then suggests that anyone who's traveling on the rail has Deep Pockets, or is connected to someone with same). The "battered wife hopping on the Rail with 2 kids to escape Sharn and the abusive husband to make a new life in Flamekeep" scenario takes on a VERY different set of implications (the ex-husband is wealthy and the wife stole a great big pile of cash, the wife is wealthy, she's got contacts with the Orien or someone else who can write off the expense). Additionally, it also puts things into perspective - an employer paying to send 4 PC's 2000 miles across the country via rail is a) VERY wealthy, b) VERY connected, and c) REALLY wants whatever it is he's sending the PC's after, d) all of the above. I mean, if this dude offers the PC's 500gp each to do a job (a sizeable payment at 2nd or 3rd level), it's a pittance compared to what he's paying to transport them. 2000gp to hire the PC's is nothing, compared to the 16,000gp he's shelling out for the train tickets (in cash, favors, or influence). It also really means the PC's are likely never going to reach the point where they can afford to travel so recklessly - they'll always be beholden to some patron. I mean, a trip across Khorvaire (say, Sharn to the big military academy in Karrnath and home again) represents a MAJOR chunk of a PC's wealth, even at reasonably high level (I can't find the wealth-by-level table in the SRD). And even then - if the PC does make the purchase, they're sacrificing quite a bit, and ultimately, they don't really get a whole lot out of it (other than a nifty sightseeing trip). For the 10 grand it'd cost them, they could have bought some pretty kick-butt magical doodads. And if you do make the PC's fabulously wealthy (so they can in fact, go gallavanting around as necessary, without invoking patrons), what's to keep them from blowing that money on big magical doodads instead? Reducing the price of travel would also help even things out a bit between the DMarked houses, economically. The Deneith are paupers (by a few orders of magnitude) compared to the Orien or Lyrandar. I did an analysis of this on another thread...though I can't find a link to it anymore. [/quote]Another thing to consider is that both of the transportation networks in Eberron can carry a large amount of cargo. This makes it easier to see why such high rates for individual travel don't put them out of business for a lack of customers. Moving people from place to place is not where the businesses get the majority of their income; they could easily thrive on what they make on shipping costs. They don't need to transport people at all to stay afloat, and thus can charge whatever they like, knowing that people will take it or leave it without hurting them in the least.[/QUOTE] Perhaps so. But also consider what the published Lightning Rail coaches have looked like to date - they're all VERY passenger-heavy (out of a total of 10 cars, the train in WotVB had what, 4-6 passenger cars, 2 cargo cars, and the "engines"?). I think it's even said to have something like 200 people aboard... Granted, it's pretty easy to just handwave that as an "Oops" situation, and adjust as necessary in your campaign... Furthermore, it does bring up the question of how much the Orien (or Lyrandar) charge for shipping goods. 1cp/lb? 1gp/ton? That'll also have it's own supply/demand scenario (transported goods need to be relatively high value-density...and an item that's actually needs shipment in large quantities).
taski 06-09-05, 11:24 PM	In my game, we've house-ruled to adjust the prices for Lightning Rail travel to something much cheaper, rather than adjust the number of passengers to those who can afford 5 silver (a day's worth of good food!) per mile. That's over a year's worth of good food for a one-way trip from Sharn to Wroat! Such high prices aren't suitable for my group, since we want to use the Lightning Rail like the trains of the mid-1800s. Because we like trains. Or at least I do. We've decided to price the Rail based on a combination of distance, demand, and danger. The Three D's...? Anyway, the Sharn-Wroat line is very popular and in relatively safe territory, so it is cheap -- around 5 gold round-trip. Peasants can't afford it, but a Wroat clerk can bring his family on a vacation to Sharn, and a Mror can afford to do business in person in both Sharn and the capitol. However, the Irontown-Krona Peak line is less used, and more difficult to maintain, what with the mountains, avalances and occational Orc raid. It is around 15 gold round-trip, even though it is a shorter distance. Cloud Divider's "battered wife hopping on the Rail with 2 kids to escape Sharn and the abusive husband to make a new life in Flamekeep" scenario could happen in our campain for only 40 gold (including kids). She probably wouldn't be a simple commoner unless she saved up for the trip, but an expert could fairly easily afford it.
Lanthir 06-09-05, 11:58 PM	Just never let your PC wizard get to 18th level if (s)he has the idea of placing permanent portals/teleportation circles ,etc. around. There are enough reason why that player wouldn't live to long. :evillaugh :schemes: And it are just minor reasons like governments don't wanting a backdoor into their territories, houses that see their profits dissapear, etc.
Gurv 06-10-05, 12:41 AM	However, on some level, there's still probably some accounting going on, even between patrons of Dragonmarked Houses (perhaps especially Dragonmarked Houses). Orien's providing a service, and could very reasonably expect just compensation. So perhaps Orien authorizes 50,000gp in "travel vouchers" a year to the Brelish government. They'd probably expect at least 50,000gp worth of compensation (reduced taxes, or other less tangible goods). Accounting? Absolutely. But it doesn't always have to be measured in gold pieces. Back room deals, favors, good politics, and dirty politics all come into it, and if there is an accountant somewhere tallying it all up, then he is a very lonely fellow who is vastly unappreciated. But the thing of it is, is that it doesn't cost Orien that much to transport people, not by a long shot. They don't see each extra person as losing huge sums: if you are running a train somewhere anyhow, it doesn't cost more to add a person. Anything they get from the deal is icing on the cake. I think that the high cost is meant as a deterrent, to prevent people they don't care about from riding. They don't need that many people riding on the lightning rail and there aren't have enough coaches or the manpower to do much more than they already are. <WARNING: Discussion of Khorvairian Economics follows> One does wonder, really, what the operating expenses of the Lightning Rail (or any other semi-magical transportation) are. Do the coaches have a maintenance/upkeep cost? I'm sure maintaining the rail network itself is reasonably work- and supply-intensive (ensuring the conductor stones are all in place; repairing damage caused by floods, which may include replacing conductor stones). So the Orien would need to recoup those costs at the very minimum. I am sure there is a great deal of upkeep. As you said, things get damaged. Things get stolen. And costs for magical battles on the tops of out-of-control coaches add up pretty quick, even if the PCs never have to pay for them. Plus there are taxes to be paid, conductors and engineers who need salaries, as do the artificers and magewrights who do all the repairs. Plus Orien likely wants to continue growing, adding new lines and increasing the number of coaches. In my game, they're working on that annoying gap between Vedykar and Vulyar. It also really means the PC's are likely never going to reach the point where they can afford to travel so recklessly - they'll always be beholden to some patron. I mean, a trip across Khorvaire (say, Sharn to the big military academy in Karrnath and home again) represents a MAJOR chunk of a PC's wealth, even at reasonably high level (I can't find the wealth-by-level table in the SRD). And even then - if the PC does make the purchase, they're sacrificing quite a bit, and ultimately, they don't really get a whole lot out of it (other than a nifty sightseeing trip). For the 10 grand it'd cost them, they could have bought some pretty kick-butt magical doodads. It depends on the game. I like the way the various transportations are extremely limiting. Naturally, you can and should adjust it to your own game. If you want them and other non-wealthy people using it on a daily basis, there is nothing wrong with lowering the price. The "patron pays travel costs" works pretty well for me because I like the control it gives me over which direction the PCs go, but there are other ways to give them the power to ride for free. Saving an important Orien heir, even by accident in the most minor of encounters, might result in riding free forever. But it remains a tool in the DM's hand, which is a good thing, IMO. Reducing the price of travel would also help even things out a bit between the DMarked houses, economically. The Deneith are paupers (by a few orders of magnitude) compared to the Orien or Lyrandar. I did an analysis of this on another thread...though I can't find a link to it anymore. You may be right. I haven't really thought about it. But as you noted yourself, Orien and Lyrandar have upkeep costs above and beyond paying members. They might make more, but they also spend more. And on even more of a tangent, who says the Dragonmarked Houses need to be equal on economic grounds? My money's on Orien in a race, Deneith in a fight and it has nothing to do with who has the biggest bottom line. But also consider what the published Lightning Rail coaches have looked like to date - they're all VERY passenger-heavy (out of a total of 10 cars, the train in WotVB had what, 4-6 passenger cars, 2 cargo cars, and the "engines"?). I think it's even said to have something like 200 people aboard... From what I hear, WotVB had many a problem with internal consistency. I haven't done more than glance at it, so I don't know, really, but I doubt that it sets a reliable precedent. But for all we know, for every such train, four or five trains exist, carrying nothing but pure cargo. Having so many people capable of paying such a high price, all at the same time, does seem odd. Which is why I think it makes more sense if many of them cannot actually pay and are being covered by people who can strike favorable deals with Oren. I agree it still doesn't make perfect sense, but I think it is more likely than that many aristocrats simultaneously riding on a train. Why do so many people have to travel hundreds of miles anyway, even setting the cost aside? Furthermore, it does bring up the question of how much the Orien (or Lyrandar) charge for shipping goods. 1cp/lb? 1gp/ton? That'll also have it's own supply/demand scenario (transported goods need to be relatively high value-density...and an item that's actually needs shipment in large quantities). Shipping costs are a very good question. There are many, many variables to take into account regardless of the price set. Eventually, it costs more to move something than it is worth on the market. But a very good question.
ussie 06-10-05, 01:36 AM	this is just my opinion but characters from level 1-4 have no business flying around anywhere, they should stick to their home town and neighbouring towns and should they decide to move around they should be get their donkey saddle ready (kidding, they can use horses but in a realistic way low level characters dont have any need to leave their province (i know there are not provinces but a region of the country) If you are using an adventure that involves a lot of travel then it really should be for higher level characters, cos would it make sense for a person to hire a lowly level one character to do something? i duno, this is what im just thinking, when u hit level 5 characters have reputations, are owed maybe a favour or two, they are of repute and can be hired by a house which is willing to compensate characters. by the time they hit level 5 this is where there are really going around the continent. this is as i pointed out my opinion, it is the way i justify the characters not flying around a lot. in my campaign the characters' first flight was was when they were level 3 and they had to reach another country by sundown and they really had no choice, so i pretty much left the characters 3 options (try and raise money for the journey, by promising to do a mission or actually do a mini mission in a couple of hours, call in a favour, or sign a contract with house orien or lyander), but eventually when the journey was made it felt magical and special, i dont think flying airships no matter how accepted in eberron should be as simple as "u hop on ,are served peanuts, see the sea and land"
Darth Syntax 06-10-05, 07:41 PM	ccerose, it definately looks like you can adjust the prices or not depending on the kind of game you want to DM. If you want more control over where the PCs travel, then use prices they can't afford, making them rely on patrons (you). If you want to give the PCs a certain amount of freedom, use prices they can afford, or have them earn anytime-anywhere access to the Rail for saving Orien children (or something). Of course this also depends on your players. Some players might not respect the fact that unexpected travel can create extra work for you and abuse what freedom you might give them, while some other players may prefer to let the DM handle the decisions of where to go. For these, of course, using the unaffordable prices and rich patron would work best. On the other hand, some players may want the freedom to decide where to travel, and also posess the wisdom to realize that creating more work for the DM can increase the time until the next session. If the players and DM are okay with that, and the DM doesn't mind giving the players some control over the direction of the plot, then giving them access to the Rail, either by cheap prices or Orien playing favorites, should be reasonable.
Gurv 06-10-05, 09:25 PM	this is just my opinion but characters from level 1-4 have no business flying around anywhere, they should stick to their home town and neighbouring towns and should they decide to move around they should be get their donkey saddle ready (kidding, they can use horses but in a realistic way low level characters dont have any need to leave their province (i know there are not provinces but a region of the country) If you are using an adventure that involves a lot of travel then it really should be for higher level characters, cos would it make sense for a person to hire a lowly level one character to do something? i duno, this is what im just thinking, when u hit level 5 characters have reputations, are owed maybe a favour or two, they are of repute and can be hired by a house which is willing to compensate characters. by the time they hit level 5 this is where there are really going around the continent. Well, you did open with "just my opinion", so you are entitled to feel however you wish about it. But many players in the setting are enthused about the fact that just being 1st level PCs sets them ahead of the rest. In Eberron, a 1st level character might have a reputation, even if it is just for the ability to "learn spells in a single day, just by reading them out of a book". Most NPCs are, after all, individuals with NPC classes, none of which allow such a wonderful thing. Don't mistake "1st level PCs" with "mere commoner". A key element of the Eberron setting is that the player characters are remarkable individuals, possessed of uncommon skills and potential. This advantage is reflected both by action points, which most NPCs do not possess, and by the versatility of the PC classes. When the campaign begins, the PCs' potential may not be fully realized. A 2nd-level wizard is not a world shaking force, but the fact that he is pursuing the difficult field of arcane study is impressive in its own right; it provides him with opportunities and causes potential patrons to seek his help. Many villains will be the equals of the player characters, and some will be more powerful, highlighting the world's need for heroes. Eberron is not a world where powerful NPCs typically show up to save the day; by the time the player characters reach the middle levels, they will be their own best allies.About the travel: Eberron's excellent modes of travel are more of a DM tool than a player tool. Saddling up the donkey to head off and adventure is a fine thing for a classic D&D game, and can happen in Eberron as easily as anywhere else (due to the normally high rates for special travel). But what if I don't want to run that kind of game? What if I, as the DM, have a campaign in mind that involves traveling to far-flung locations early on? Do I have to wait until the PCs are high enough level to make decent time on their own? Am I obligated to hit them with random encounters along the way? I don't like the idea of being limited to that kind of, single-location-until-you-graduate-to-a-higher-level type of game. The best thing about the lightning rail and airships is that if I want, I can tell the players "You're there, and then X happens". If I don't want them there, I don't have to make it easy.
ccerose 06-11-05, 12:52 AM	Actually, those prices set in the ECS are working with my group. They spent levels 1-4 mostly in and around Sharn. So when the latest adventure took them to the Eldeen Reaches, the only way the party could arrive in time was to suck up and pay the price for the lightning rail. After the ride back, each player spent a little over 1800 gp to cover travel expenses. Granted, I made sure the loot they collected from the adventure helped to take some of the sting away. A few of the players did stow away on the lightning rail before they had enough to purchase a ticket. I had them make a hide checks as the train pulled out of each stop versus the conductor's spot check. They made it through three stops before they were caught. As punishment, they got to spend 3 days in the Starilaskur city prison. When they were released, the weapons they had been carrying had been mysteriously misplaced.
Psymnotica 06-11-05, 03:20 PM	In my campaign I have modified the prices for the lightning rail to make it semi affordable (only the upper-middle class and above travel any great distance), but I've also done two things to make travel either more-affordable or less. First, to make it more afffordable, I've made passenger cars that are cheap, but are very uncomfortable to travel in for long distances. You'd be very lucky to find a seat that hasn't already been taken, and then, only if you are one of the first people on that car. While the benefit of this is a cheaper ride, it is in a cramped space with 100+ passengers, hard wooden bench seats, no egress to other rail cars or even open windows during travel, and only one w.c. among them all. House Orien calls this "Economy Seating". :) As for making it more expensive, during the course of play, whenever the characters go to the rail station I will put up random notices that the travel rates between such-and-such locations have skyrocketed in price. If the characters inquire with the ticketing agent about the reason for such rate hikes, the agent will let them know of some accident, bandit raid or political grandstanding between the nations that makes it more difficult and expensive for House Orien to operate the rail lines safely in that area. And because it doesn't immediately concern them (and seems to be so much background flavor) the players don't think much of it. Having set all of that up, when my players ever decide that they are going to take a rail someplace I really don't want them to go, I have it so that an "Economy Seating" car is not available for that leg of the rail line or have a sudden rate hike happen due to one of the afore mentioned reasons. :) That way, my players can't think too badly of me when I guide them away from a course of action I don't want them to take and the preparation I have put into the game isn't suddenly thrown out the window.