Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Will_Shakespeare 01-27-06, 11:17 AM	Hey guys, there is one thing i've been wondering about awhile. Now i'm gonna clarify that with you guys. Why the heck are Profession checks "Trained only" and Craft checks go untrained. Doesn't make any sense, or!?! This is a mistake IMO, but it has not been revised in the errata or explained in the FAQ. To me it is obvious, that craft checks have to be marked as "Trained only". So what do you guys think? I mean, if it can be used untrained, then every commoner can take 10 on his armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, blacksmithing, carpentry, cobbling, weaving, alchemy etc., making some fine gold pieces per week, instead of working as an untrained laborer who earns an average silver piece per day. Opinions? Cheers Will
NathanD 01-27-06, 12:50 PM	Think about it this way. I could not make a living as a Chef without going to school, but I am a pretty good cook. No one would pay me to build them a boat, but given time and tools, I think I could make one that would work. Just because someone can make something does not mean that the item is good enough that someone else would pay for it. Also, remember that taking 10 on a skill takes longer to do the same task.
Clone547 01-27-06, 12:53 PM	By RAW, yeah untrained workers could make alot of gold by taking 10, but think about this: if you had the choice of buying a weapon made by a comoner or one made by a master smith, which would you choose? It would by like aa kid trying to make money selling homemade bird houses. Sure they may work, and might even be cheaper, but they probable won't last as long, be as sturdy, or evan look as nice. In my opinion, an untrained worker who does craft check would be working as an apprentice for some one who has a Profession skill and a Craft skill that work in conjunction, like Proffesion (Blacksmith) and Craft (Armorsmithing). The untrained worker would run the bellows, clean the shop, or fetch firewood, and that's not worth gold. So by RAW it looks like everyone should be making tons of money , but commoners don't know the rules. They're not players. They just fill a role in a story that we as DM's and Players shape.
Will_Shakespeare 01-27-06, 01:15 PM	Hi there, the thing is, according to the RAW, every commoner could open his own smithy, produce things of average quality and sell them for several gold pieces per week. E.g. a commoner with a Int-modifier of +0 can take 10 on his Craft (Blacksmithing) check and earn 5 gold pieces per week that way. He would earn 20 gold pieces per month! I don't think the designers wanted that to happen. None of the craft skills mentioned in the PHB have to be learned and trained, whereas you have to learn real hard to be a fisher, woodcutter, driver or porter (cause they're all professions and trained only). So who else thinks this is wrong? BTW, taking 10 does not take more time to use a skill. Not by RAW. Cheers Will
Sereno 01-27-06, 01:19 PM	Think about it this way. I could not make a living as a Chef without going to school, but I am a pretty good cook. No one would pay me to build them a boat, but given time and tools, I think I could make one that would work. Just because someone can make something does not mean that the item is good enough that someone else would pay for it. Also, remember that taking 10 on a skill takes longer to do the same task. You're right about everything above, except what I bolded. Taking 10 doesn't take longer, that's "Taking 20". Taking 10 is just applying your average skill when there's nothing stressful going on. Most of our lives are spent Taking 10. My daily commute to work is all a matter of Taking 10 on my Drive Automobile skill ... unless some bastard cuts me off and I've got to swerve onto the shoulder and try to get back on the road without slamming into the speeding semi or the guardrail ... then I've got to roll! :)
Lucent 01-27-06, 01:34 PM	Let's assume you made Craft a trained only skill. Let us now assume that someone in the group would like to draw a map. This is covered under craft (cartography). If they do not have any ranks, they can not make a check in it. Which means no matter how hard they try, they can not make a map of any quality. A sketch, or even a doodle that resembles terrain. That would be an error. By the RAW every commoner could take a 10 on a craft check and create an item, yes. However, these items require raw materials, the proper facilities to create them, and the crafting time to make said object. Certainly, any man with motivation could work his way as an off the cuff craftsman making a wage. However, without profession they would not know much about running a business, keeping a profit nor would they have the capacity to regularly make anything other than ordinary tools. The next question is, what would the commoner put his skill points in? If he is a by the seat of his pants craftsman and has no understanding of business, does he pay the local taxes properly? How does other business competition feel about him? Are his products actually reliable? When you begin to apply more than just numbers to the rules, regardless of loopholes they begin to make more sense. Sure, some people could do this (and probably do) but all they can do without ranks in the skill is make average (or if they have less than a 10 int) less than average items. Just because the man makes the items does not mean people buy them. Do not assume he makes several GP per week because he would need the capital to actually craft the item in the first place, as well as the facilities. The cost for "skilled laborers" isn't what they earn on their own, it is their expected pay scale if they are hired exclusively by an individual. Just a thought.
JulesCARV 01-27-06, 02:11 PM	Using the craft skill to make money, as opposed to making items, is trained only. It says, "(Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.)" in the craft entry. I think that it's reasonable that the typical commoner has a rank or two of craft or profession. An int 10 non-human commoner has 2x4 = 8 skill points by the time he becomes a level 1 adult, after all. It would be kind of silly if a commoner, growing up, put all his efforts into learning how to use ropes and listen. Now, I can accept that there are some commoners who have no skills or training, who make 1 sp/day. However, I think these are the equivalent of people who work at McDonalds making $5.15 an hour, not the typical commoner, who is better off than an untrained laborer/assistant. I mean, making 6 gp per week isn't THAT much, if you're raising kids and such.
Inkling 01-27-06, 08:19 PM	My groups always add a house rule that you can't make masterwork items untrained. Personally I wish they made a list of trained-only craft skills like weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, gem cutting, etc and just left out the untrained craft skills like basketweaving, pottery making, writing, etc. and put those under the Profession list. The entire economics of D&D are completely screwed up, you can go on and on about all the mistakes in there. The rules really only apply to the adventuring heroes. The commoners have a different set of rules. I mean how would a book keeper become a higher level Expert by killing goblins? Commoner levels are just arbitrarily set by the DM to loosely describe their skills, no commoner optimizes his skill set. Commoners are just scenery. I'm sure WotC's philosophy is that D&D is about busting into Dungeons and slaughtering Dragons, not about building stuff, so they didnt spend any time thinking about those rules.
MobiusKlein 01-28-06, 01:12 AM	Inspired the the Above posts, I'll announce my new game, C & C, with a fully fleshed out skill can craft system: Caligraphy & Cooking. But seriously folks, most craft skills out there for DnD are more for role playing flavor than hard core use. My Changeling Rogue (named Rouge, don't ask) spent a few ranks on Craft ( Sewing ) so she could justify making improved disguises. Have I actually make a single Sewing check while playing? Nope. It's there for flavor. If you want to encourage players to actually build up craft skills, you could give them 1 extra skill point (times level +3) to spend soley on 'useless' skills. Craft (anything non-weapon / armor / trap / alchemy), Profession (any). Perhaps allow extra skill points to be spent on cool craft skills at a 2 for 1 cost?
Golbez57 01-28-06, 07:46 AM	Not that I spend much time thinking about such things, but mulling it over now, I think it's a matter of having the right tools and following logical progressions of NPC advancement. An untrained Commoner would be find it impossible to put together a fine set of armor without all the trappings of the armorsmith trade: an anvil, something that'll hold mass amounts of heat, a number of quality hammers, and so on (probably lots more--I haven't done much research on blacksmithing, heheh). This would cost loads of capital to get started, with no guarantee that he could Craft something useful with it, anyways. So, he's likely to pursue more menial pursuits to earn the money he and his family needs to survive. And, if he did start doing so, using his own or someone else's equipment, for this or any other Craft, he's really better described as an Expert rather than a Commoner, and his class levels should reflect this. Note that Crafting something isn't the same as creating things as part of a Profession--the former just produced the item (of progressively better make with a higher modifier), while the latter allows a character to market and sell the items or services (along with the creation of passable goods, in some cases).