Crafting mundane items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crafting mundane items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Beowulfe
03-21-06, 09:38 AM Ok, the rules seem kind vague on this. When crafting a magic item, the crafter can only work 8 hours a day. There is no such wording for craft skill but it seems a logical conclusion.

Now with spell in Eberron, Unseen Crafter you create an unseen servant who can craft items for you. It stays either days/lvl or until task is complete, whichever is first. Would these "creatures" just work the 8 hours or the full 24hrs? To clear this up, I have an example. Say I have a 7th level caster who cast the spell so crafter will make a suit of armor. Normally for craft skill you would take check results X craft DC and that is amount of in SP of completion for the week. Would unseen crafter multiple that result by 3 since it is working 24 hrs or are they just assumed to be only working 8hrs on it?
DarkWarriorKarg
03-21-06, 11:41 AM Logically, yes.

Just as, IMG, I ignore the silly rule that says WF can only work 8 hrs on 1 thing. (Long riverboat rides are a boon to the sculpting WF artist)

Then you'll have the paranoid people excalim that Warforged could be reapired a lot faster (which I would agree with).

Warforged were feared on the battlefield. Not just for their competency, but the fact that they can get back to it a lot faster than their fleshy counterparts.
jonthegm
03-21-06, 12:13 PM Ok, the rules seem kind vague on this. When crafting a magic item, the crafter can only work 8 hours a day. There is no such wording for craft skill but it seems a logical conclusion.

Now with spell in Eberron, Unseen Crafter you create an unseen servant who can craft items for you. It stays either days/lvl or until task is complete, whichever is first. Would these "creatures" just work the 8 hours or the full 24hrs? To clear this up, I have an example. Say I have a 7th level caster who cast the spell so crafter will make a suit of armor. Normally for craft skill you would take check results X craft DC and that is amount of in SP of completion for the week. Would unseen crafter multiple that result by 3 since it is working 24 hrs or are they just assumed to be only working 8hrs on it?
I reason from effects.

Since the spell doesn't mention a speed increase on creating items, I reason that while the unseen crafter CAN work 24/7, it doesn't get any more work done in a day than a craftsman in 8 hours.
Vegepygmy
03-21-06, 12:36 PM I would rule that an unseen servant can Craft items three times faster.
DarkWarriorKarg
03-21-06, 12:43 PM I reason from effects.

Since the spell doesn't mention a speed increase on creating items, I reason that while the unseen crafter CAN work 24/7, it doesn't get any more work done in a day than a craftsman in 8 hours.

It's unionized?
jonthegm
03-21-06, 01:00 PM I would rule that an unseen servant can Craft items three times faster.
Why? This blatantly disregards the RAI, and arguably the RAW as well.
Kreistor1
03-21-06, 03:31 PM Unseen Crafter is insane. Unmodified, with a 7th level unspecialized Wizard, you can have a minimum of 6 of these bad boys working for you at once.

Personally, I limit it to one Unseen Crafter active at one time per caster. Since it is unaffected by Magecraft, a true living artisan will always be better.
Beowulfe
03-21-06, 03:38 PM Unseen Crafter is insane. Unmodified, with a 7th level unspecialized Wizard, you can have a minimum of 6 of these bad boys working for you at once.

Personally, I limit it to one Unseen Crafter active at one time per caster. Since it is unaffected by Magecraft, a true living artisan will always be better.

But really is it that unbalanced? Artificers can churn out one magic item a day. Crafting mundane items still takes time. Even going 24hrs a day, it still takes an unseen crafter 13 WEEKS to create a Darkleaf Breastplate. Considering there are not many casters above 5th level, it is not too overpowerful.
Kreistor1
03-21-06, 04:16 PM If you don't let your PC's Craft between adventures, no problem. But do you seriously want your Wizard cranking out that, plus selling spells? They'd be making 100's per week, just for downtime, while the fighter is earning, what, a few gold a week doing bodyguard duty, or some weak thing?

No, it's seriously over the top, off the scale, and ill conceived.
jonthegm
03-21-06, 04:24 PM If you don't let your PC's Craft between adventures, no problem. But do you seriously want your Wizard cranking out that, plus selling spells? They'd be making 100's per week, just for downtime, while the fighter is earning, what, a few gold a week doing bodyguard duty, or some weak thing?

No, it's seriously over the top, off the scale, and ill conceived.
You're incorrect.

Sure, the wizard can create a bajillion mundane items. What wizard has dumped enough points into Profession(Business)?

He's gonna get cheated like no other when it comes to buying the raw materials and end up with a bunch of unsellable product due to a flooded market that can't afford to purchase enough. Then he's going to get taken to the cleaners by the transportation costs to move his excess wares to other markets.
Vegepygmy
03-21-06, 06:50 PM Why? This blatantly disregards the RAI, and arguably the RAW as well.Because the Craft rules assume an 8-hour workday, and there's no reason to believe that assumption applies to unseen crafter spells.

I haven't seen "RAI" before. Is that Rules As Intended?
Beowulfe
03-22-06, 12:46 PM Because the Craft rules assume an 8-hour workday, and there's no reason to believe that assumption applies to unseen crafter spells.

I haven't seen "RAI" before. Is that Rules As Intended?

That's my question. I've seen where it says crafting magic items is 8hr, but I don't see any limitation on the craft skill. And the craft rules assume a PC needs sleep and rest so they can only work 8 hrs.
Kreistor1
03-22-06, 01:19 PM Jon, is that how it is for your average Blacksmith? Or Potter? Or everyone else in the world? Without Profession(Business) you lose your shirt? That's hardly conducive to a good business climate, like what one finds in Sharn, a bustling mecca of trade, manufacturing, and invention. You don't get that kind of an atmosphere in a place where 1/2 the businesses are closed down each year because the people who started them didn't have any business sense.

Sorry, I just don't think that way. If things were as you suggest, the average citizen couldn't even start up a bakery, or they'd get taken to the cleaners buying flour without Prof(Business), and every customer would rip them off. Or, for that matter, shopping in the market for dinner would cost you a week's wages.

If the average citizen can start a Blacksmith's, a Bakery, a Mill, a Farm, or anything else without some particular business skill, then so can the Wizard. If they don't get taken to the cleaners, then neither does he. If they make money, then he makes money.

You are certainly welcome to run your Sharn your way. But I think you're competely overplaying that skill, or you don't understand the repercussions of charging prices like you're suggesting. Putting your clients out of business, or even ensuring that they make no profit, is a great way to not have any clients. As a producer of cheap goods, so long as there is a better deal elsewhere, you don't need to have Prof(Business), you just have to wait for the smarter businessman to walk up to your doorstep and offer a better deal than the last smarter businessman. Competition obliviates the need to be incredibly business savvy. You will get a good price, because someone will want to buy your goods for a reasonable price, when they see you're getting a raw deal from someone more shady. Why? Because t new guy will make more money by getting you out of it and buying from you at a higher price than he will by letting you stay in that bad deal and not moving your goods. So, in the end, overplaying Prof(Business) winds up only screwing the business that goes for the short term reward. A good businessman doesn't lose that source of goods, and the only way to do that is to keep the source happy and profitable.
jonthegm
03-22-06, 01:47 PM Jon, is that how it is for your average Blacksmith? Or Potter? Or everyone else in the world? Without Profession(Business) you lose your shirt? That's hardly conducive to a good business climate, like what one finds in Sharn, a bustling mecca of trade, manufacturing, and invention. You don't get that kind of an atmosphere in a place where 1/2 the businesses are closed down each year because the people who started them didn't have any business sense.

Sorry, I just don't think that way. If things were as you suggest, the average citizen couldn't even start up a bakery, or they'd get taken to the cleaners buying flour without Prof(Business), and every customer would rip them off. Or, for that matter, shopping in the market for dinner would cost you a week's wages.

If the average citizen can start a Blacksmith's, a Bakery, a Mill, a Farm, or anything else without some particular business skill, then so can the Wizard. If they don't get taken to the cleaners, then neither does he. If they make money, then he makes money.

You are certainly welcome to run your Sharn your way. But I think you're competely overplaying that skill, or you don't understand the repercussions of charging prices like you're suggesting. Putting your clients out of business, or even ensuring that they make no profit, is a great way to not have any clients. As a producer of cheap goods, so long as there is a better deal elsewhere, you don't need to have Prof(Business), you just have to wait for the smarter businessman to walk up to your doorstep and offer a better deal than the last smarter businessman. Competition obliviates the need to be incredibly business savvy. You will get a good price, because someone will want to buy your goods for a reasonable price, when they see you're getting a raw deal from someone more shady. Why? Because t new guy will make more money by getting you out of it and buying from you at a higher price than he will by letting you stay in that bad deal and not moving your goods. So, in the end, overplaying Prof(Business) winds up only screwing the business that goes for the short term reward. A good businessman doesn't lose that source of goods, and the only way to do that is to keep the source happy and profitable.

How many merchant princes are there? I'd say that to make REAL money, money above and beyond a "living wage" you're going to have to sink significant amounts into Prof(Business) or Prof(Blacksmithing) or whatnot. Cheapie everyday blacksmiths don't make a whole lot of money. It's as simple as that.

All you're going to get with magical "dumping" of mundane items into an economy is a bunch of people who won't have a livelihood.

So yes, the PLAYERS will get screwed by Prof() skills. The PLAYERS also get screwed by pricing, which is balanced against party power levels and not against actual economics.

NPCs are there for flavor. If you as GM want players to make a bunch of money, then let them. Just don't make them do the nitty gritty... D&D isn't set up for that.

In my campaign, I assume that all of my PCs have spent their lives learning how to be adventurers. If they spent skill points on a Profession, then that shows they also spent time learning how to do that job. Even so, if a PC wizard suddenly comes up with a mass production scheme, he's got a few hurdles to go over:
1) Suppliers have their own clients already. Since the PC is new (unless the PC did a big favor to the supplier), he'll have to pay up front for raw materials.
2) There're already sellers there. The PC is going to have to undercut the current sellers to overcome his lack of reputation. If he's part of Cannith, that may not really be an option (I assume that Cannith personally keeps tabs on anyone selling things and works to keep Cannith prices around even)
3) Paying the Goon Squad. Especially in Sharn, any new businessperson is going to have to pay fees, taxes, bribes, and outright extortion to do business in the city. It's a fact of life.

I move that into the Profession skill (with modifiers on how the PC thinks of the above), and just say "Ok, you make X amount of money in a week." Because dealing with all that for ONE person is like RPing shopping: it's BORING.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beowulfe 03-21-06, 09:38 AM	Ok, the rules seem kind vague on this. When crafting a magic item, the crafter can only work 8 hours a day. There is no such wording for craft skill but it seems a logical conclusion. Now with spell in Eberron, Unseen Crafter you create an unseen servant who can craft items for you. It stays either days/lvl or until task is complete, whichever is first. Would these "creatures" just work the 8 hours or the full 24hrs? To clear this up, I have an example. Say I have a 7th level caster who cast the spell so crafter will make a suit of armor. Normally for craft skill you would take check results X craft DC and that is amount of in SP of completion for the week. Would unseen crafter multiple that result by 3 since it is working 24 hrs or are they just assumed to be only working 8hrs on it?
DarkWarriorKarg 03-21-06, 11:41 AM	Logically, yes. Just as, IMG, I ignore the silly rule that says WF can only work 8 hrs on 1 thing. (Long riverboat rides are a boon to the sculpting WF artist) Then you'll have the paranoid people excalim that Warforged could be reapired a lot faster (which I would agree with). Warforged were feared on the battlefield. Not just for their competency, but the fact that they can get back to it a lot faster than their fleshy counterparts.
jonthegm 03-21-06, 12:13 PM	Ok, the rules seem kind vague on this. When crafting a magic item, the crafter can only work 8 hours a day. There is no such wording for craft skill but it seems a logical conclusion. Now with spell in Eberron, Unseen Crafter you create an unseen servant who can craft items for you. It stays either days/lvl or until task is complete, whichever is first. Would these "creatures" just work the 8 hours or the full 24hrs? To clear this up, I have an example. Say I have a 7th level caster who cast the spell so crafter will make a suit of armor. Normally for craft skill you would take check results X craft DC and that is amount of in SP of completion for the week. Would unseen crafter multiple that result by 3 since it is working 24 hrs or are they just assumed to be only working 8hrs on it? I reason from effects. Since the spell doesn't mention a speed increase on creating items, I reason that while the unseen crafter CAN work 24/7, it doesn't get any more work done in a day than a craftsman in 8 hours.
Vegepygmy 03-21-06, 12:36 PM	I would rule that an unseen servant can Craft items three times faster.
DarkWarriorKarg 03-21-06, 12:43 PM	I reason from effects. Since the spell doesn't mention a speed increase on creating items, I reason that while the unseen crafter CAN work 24/7, it doesn't get any more work done in a day than a craftsman in 8 hours. It's unionized?
jonthegm 03-21-06, 01:00 PM	I would rule that an unseen servant can Craft items three times faster. Why? This blatantly disregards the RAI, and arguably the RAW as well.
Kreistor1 03-21-06, 03:31 PM	Unseen Crafter is insane. Unmodified, with a 7th level unspecialized Wizard, you can have a minimum of 6 of these bad boys working for you at once. Personally, I limit it to one Unseen Crafter active at one time per caster. Since it is unaffected by Magecraft, a true living artisan will always be better.
Beowulfe 03-21-06, 03:38 PM	Unseen Crafter is insane. Unmodified, with a 7th level unspecialized Wizard, you can have a minimum of 6 of these bad boys working for you at once. Personally, I limit it to one Unseen Crafter active at one time per caster. Since it is unaffected by Magecraft, a true living artisan will always be better. But really is it that unbalanced? Artificers can churn out one magic item a day. Crafting mundane items still takes time. Even going 24hrs a day, it still takes an unseen crafter 13 WEEKS to create a Darkleaf Breastplate. Considering there are not many casters above 5th level, it is not too overpowerful.
Kreistor1 03-21-06, 04:16 PM	If you don't let your PC's Craft between adventures, no problem. But do you seriously want your Wizard cranking out that, plus selling spells? They'd be making 100's per week, just for downtime, while the fighter is earning, what, a few gold a week doing bodyguard duty, or some weak thing? No, it's seriously over the top, off the scale, and ill conceived.
jonthegm 03-21-06, 04:24 PM	If you don't let your PC's Craft between adventures, no problem. But do you seriously want your Wizard cranking out that, plus selling spells? They'd be making 100's per week, just for downtime, while the fighter is earning, what, a few gold a week doing bodyguard duty, or some weak thing? No, it's seriously over the top, off the scale, and ill conceived. You're incorrect. Sure, the wizard can create a bajillion mundane items. What wizard has dumped enough points into Profession(Business)? He's gonna get cheated like no other when it comes to buying the raw materials and end up with a bunch of unsellable product due to a flooded market that can't afford to purchase enough. Then he's going to get taken to the cleaners by the transportation costs to move his excess wares to other markets.
Vegepygmy 03-21-06, 06:50 PM	Why? This blatantly disregards the RAI, and arguably the RAW as well.Because the Craft rules assume an 8-hour workday, and there's no reason to believe that assumption applies to unseen crafter spells. I haven't seen "RAI" before. Is that Rules As Intended?
Beowulfe 03-22-06, 12:46 PM	Because the Craft rules assume an 8-hour workday, and there's no reason to believe that assumption applies to unseen crafter spells. I haven't seen "RAI" before. Is that Rules As Intended? That's my question. I've seen where it says crafting magic items is 8hr, but I don't see any limitation on the craft skill. And the craft rules assume a PC needs sleep and rest so they can only work 8 hrs.
Kreistor1 03-22-06, 01:19 PM	Jon, is that how it is for your average Blacksmith? Or Potter? Or everyone else in the world? Without Profession(Business) you lose your shirt? That's hardly conducive to a good business climate, like what one finds in Sharn, a bustling mecca of trade, manufacturing, and invention. You don't get that kind of an atmosphere in a place where 1/2 the businesses are closed down each year because the people who started them didn't have any business sense. Sorry, I just don't think that way. If things were as you suggest, the average citizen couldn't even start up a bakery, or they'd get taken to the cleaners buying flour without Prof(Business), and every customer would rip them off. Or, for that matter, shopping in the market for dinner would cost you a week's wages. If the average citizen can start a Blacksmith's, a Bakery, a Mill, a Farm, or anything else without some particular business skill, then so can the Wizard. If they don't get taken to the cleaners, then neither does he. If they make money, then he makes money. You are certainly welcome to run your Sharn your way. But I think you're competely overplaying that skill, or you don't understand the repercussions of charging prices like you're suggesting. Putting your clients out of business, or even ensuring that they make no profit, is a great way to not have any clients. As a producer of cheap goods, so long as there is a better deal elsewhere, you don't need to have Prof(Business), you just have to wait for the smarter businessman to walk up to your doorstep and offer a better deal than the last smarter businessman. Competition obliviates the need to be incredibly business savvy. You will get a good price, because someone will want to buy your goods for a reasonable price, when they see you're getting a raw deal from someone more shady. Why? Because t new guy will make more money by getting you out of it and buying from you at a higher price than he will by letting you stay in that bad deal and not moving your goods. So, in the end, overplaying Prof(Business) winds up only screwing the business that goes for the short term reward. A good businessman doesn't lose that source of goods, and the only way to do that is to keep the source happy and profitable.
jonthegm 03-22-06, 01:47 PM	Jon, is that how it is for your average Blacksmith? Or Potter? Or everyone else in the world? Without Profession(Business) you lose your shirt? That's hardly conducive to a good business climate, like what one finds in Sharn, a bustling mecca of trade, manufacturing, and invention. You don't get that kind of an atmosphere in a place where 1/2 the businesses are closed down each year because the people who started them didn't have any business sense. Sorry, I just don't think that way. If things were as you suggest, the average citizen couldn't even start up a bakery, or they'd get taken to the cleaners buying flour without Prof(Business), and every customer would rip them off. Or, for that matter, shopping in the market for dinner would cost you a week's wages. If the average citizen can start a Blacksmith's, a Bakery, a Mill, a Farm, or anything else without some particular business skill, then so can the Wizard. If they don't get taken to the cleaners, then neither does he. If they make money, then he makes money. You are certainly welcome to run your Sharn your way. But I think you're competely overplaying that skill, or you don't understand the repercussions of charging prices like you're suggesting. Putting your clients out of business, or even ensuring that they make no profit, is a great way to not have any clients. As a producer of cheap goods, so long as there is a better deal elsewhere, you don't need to have Prof(Business), you just have to wait for the smarter businessman to walk up to your doorstep and offer a better deal than the last smarter businessman. Competition obliviates the need to be incredibly business savvy. You will get a good price, because someone will want to buy your goods for a reasonable price, when they see you're getting a raw deal from someone more shady. Why? Because t new guy will make more money by getting you out of it and buying from you at a higher price than he will by letting you stay in that bad deal and not moving your goods. So, in the end, overplaying Prof(Business) winds up only screwing the business that goes for the short term reward. A good businessman doesn't lose that source of goods, and the only way to do that is to keep the source happy and profitable. How many merchant princes are there? I'd say that to make REAL money, money above and beyond a "living wage" you're going to have to sink significant amounts into Prof(Business) or Prof(Blacksmithing) or whatnot. Cheapie everyday blacksmiths don't make a whole lot of money. It's as simple as that. All you're going to get with magical "dumping" of mundane items into an economy is a bunch of people who won't have a livelihood. So yes, the PLAYERS will get screwed by Prof() skills. The PLAYERS also get screwed by pricing, which is balanced against party power levels and not against actual economics. NPCs are there for flavor. If you as GM want players to make a bunch of money, then let them. Just don't make them do the nitty gritty... D&D isn't set up for that. In my campaign, I assume that all of my PCs have spent their lives learning how to be adventurers. If they spent skill points on a Profession, then that shows they also spent time learning how to do that job. Even so, if a PC wizard suddenly comes up with a mass production scheme, he's got a few hurdles to go over: 1) Suppliers have their own clients already. Since the PC is new (unless the PC did a big favor to the supplier), he'll have to pay up front for raw materials. 2) There're already sellers there. The PC is going to have to undercut the current sellers to overcome his lack of reputation. If he's part of Cannith, that may not really be an option (I assume that Cannith personally keeps tabs on anyone selling things and works to keep Cannith prices around even) 3) Paying the Goon Squad. Especially in Sharn, any new businessperson is going to have to pay fees, taxes, bribes, and outright extortion to do business in the city. It's a fact of life. I move that into the Profession skill (with modifiers on how the PC thinks of the above), and just say "Ok, you make X amount of money in a week." Because dealing with all that for ONE person is like RPing shopping: it's BORING.