Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarthMidget 04-11-06, 05:26 PM	Okay, here's the deal: my latest game group consists of players who don't know very much about Eberron. So, in the course of an adventure in Q'barra the PCs have a run in with an Aundairan nobleman. Let's just say it get's rather...messy. BTW, the adventure takes place in Adderport, Q'barra. To make a long story short the nobleman, Uoman, is a high-ranking member of the Royal Eyes of Aundair and a cousin to Queen Aurala herself. The PCs' village was destroyed by the Royal Eyes, but the PCs don't know the identity of the attackers. The PCs only know that Uoman is connected to the people who murdered their families. Uoman actually didn't have anything to do with the attack itself, but debriefed the Eye agents who did it. So suffice is to say the PCs manage to track the attack back to Uoman. Since Uoman is undercover for the moment he isn't surrounded by a usual noble retinue. So one of the PCs (a changeling) poses as an Eye agent and meets Uoman in a bar. The PCs then manage to kidnap Uoman and get him back to their hideout. Since this board is supposed to be kid friendly I won't get into details, but let me just say the interrogation 'techniques' they used were barbaric. So Uoman has a heart attack from and dies. Now, before he died Uoman indicated he was an important personage. Since the PCs are new to Eberron they don't really know the significance of "cousin to the Queen of Aundair". If they did they probably would have been a bit more careful about how they did things. Basically the PCs fed Uoman and two of his agents to a pair of Talenta raptors who were stabled nearby. They also hid some of Uoman's belongings in the raptor dung in the stable. Yeah, I know, not the best way to get rid of incriminating evidence. So here's how I figure things will play out: The stablemaster obviously will notice the bones in the raptor pen. The Q'barran authorities will be called in. Since the interrogation actually took place inside the stable in the middle of the night all the animals in the stable saw it. Now this wouldn't matter, but in D&D Speak With Animals is a fairly low level spell. As such I'm sure the detectives in Adderport could call in a cleric, druid, or ranger who could cast in pretty quickly. Now I figure the Q'barrans might not be able to figure out who died from the animals, but they could figure out who did it. A few scry spells later and House Deneith Sentinel Marshalls are hot on the PCs' trail. I also figure that the Royal Eyes could be going after the PCs. The Eyes would notice the disappearance of several agents in Adderport, particularly one with such powerful connections. They would obviously monitor constabulary activity and would figure out that the PCs killed Uoman pretty quickly. I figure, however, that the Royal Eyes would not involve the authorities, but would send their own agents after the PCs. So, basically what I would like comments on are if I am going the right direction? Does everything make sense? Is this a good way for the PCs' actions to be found out? I ask this because the group is completely convinced they won't be caught. Also, if they are caught, and I figure House Deneith is pretty good at that, what would the appropriate punishment be? Death penalty? Life in prison?
Bluebrush 04-11-06, 06:12 PM	The detection sounds reasonable, though bringing in a compliant druid (Or higher level ranger or bard) might take a while, but that only gives the PCs a little more time. And the royal eyes might go after the PCs or they might manipulate other groups into bringing about their downfall. If the PCs want to raid a Dhakanni ruin, for instance, the Royal eyes may arrange for the local Dhakanni clan to find out about it. And lifelong imprisonment is pretty much out. In a late-medieval society like Eberron, imprisonment is comparitively quite expensive, and generally reserved for those who would be too troublesome to kill. Death. Is the answer.
Wolfwood2 04-11-06, 08:50 PM	Okay, here's the deal: my latest game group consists of players who don't know very much about Eberron. So, in the course of an adventure in Q'barra the PCs have a run in with an Aundairan nobleman. Let's just say it get's rather...messy. BTW, the adventure takes place in Adderport, Q'barra. To make a long story short the nobleman, Uoman, is a high-ranking member of the Royal Eyes of Aundair and a cousin to Queen Aurala herself. The PCs' village was destroyed by the Royal Eyes, but the PCs don't know the identity of the attackers. The PCs only know that Uoman is connected to the people who murdered their families. Uoman actually didn't have anything to do with the attack itself, but debriefed the Eye agents who did it. So suffice is to say the PCs manage to track the attack back to Uoman. Since Uoman is undercover for the moment he isn't surrounded by a usual noble retinue. So one of the PCs (a changeling) poses as an Eye agent and meets Uoman in a bar. The PCs then manage to kidnap Uoman and get him back to their hideout. Since this board is supposed to be kid friendly I won't get into details, but let me just say the interrogation 'techniques' they used were barbaric. So Uoman has a heart attack from and dies. You introduced an NPC connected with a group who killed the entire village of the PCs, including all their families. You were planning on them killing this guy, right? Because I don't see how they could do anything else. Dude had it coming. In fact, the entire order of Royal Eyes may have it coming. Lock and load. The stablemaster obviously will notice the bones in the raptor pen. The Q'barran authorities will be called in. Since the interrogation actually took place inside the stable in the middle of the night all the animals in the stable saw it. Now this wouldn't matter, but in D&D Speak With Animals is a fairly low level spell. As such I'm sure the detectives in Adderport could call in a cleric, druid, or ranger who could cast in pretty quickly. Now I figure the Q'barrans might not be able to figure out who died from the animals, but they could figure out who did it. A few scry spells later and House Deneith Sentinel Marshalls are hot on the PCs' trail. Whoa, whoa, whoa. 'Speak with Animals', sure I can see that. Scry spells? Seems unlikely. That's getting into some pretty high level magic. That is to say, it's unlikely the Q'barran authorities are going to go to that much trouble. They'll likely make a note to arrest the PCs if they ever come back to town, but Q'barra is a small nation with a lot of problems. They don't have the resources to hunt down every group of suspected criminals. The Royal Eyes are another matter, of course. Once the identity of the dude who had it coming becomes known, they might spring for the scrying magic or other intensive hunting measures. So, basically what I would like comments on are if I am going the right direction? Does everything make sense? Is this a good way for the PCs' actions to be found out? I ask this because the group is completely convinced they won't be caught. Also, if they are caught, and I figure House Deneith is pretty good at that, what would the appropriate punishment be? Death penalty? Life in prison? Well, if you start off the campaign by having the Royal Eyes slaughter their entire village and kill their families, then I kind of think that you intended to have the Royal Eyes be a long-term antagonist of the campaign. So sure, have the Royal Eyes send increasingly tough agents to make the lives of the PCs miserable. I think it's unlikely that the law is going to be involved, though. The Royal Eyes are going to treat this as a private matter, not go running to other national authoities. Of course, if the Q'barran authorities do catch them.... They could just explain that the dude helped kill their entire families and had it coming. And if they have a sufficiently slick talker in the group, that might just get them off. Q'barra is the frontier, and they might just understand that sometimes (say it with me) a dude has it coming.
Kolakuba 04-12-06, 03:22 AM	That is to say, it's unlikely the Q'barran authorities are going to go to that much trouble. They'll likely make a note to arrest the PCs if they ever come back to town, but Q'barra is a small nation with a lot of problems. They don't have the resources to hunt down every group of suspected criminals. But just (highlighted text) this could make it easy for Aundair to apply political pressure on Q'barra and through promises of financial aid, get Q'barra to conduct a full investigation, perhaps calling on the sentinel marshalls for help since Q'barra is their jurisdiction. In addition Riedra has established a power base in Riedra and maintain friendly relations with the nation, even going so far as to lend them men-at-arms. And Riedrans have a nasty habit of knowing most everything that is going on. Perhaps they could lend a helping hand as well, after it has become known in the ruling circles of Q'barra that Aundair is applying heavy pressure to capture the criminals who killed Queen Aurala's dear cousin who was traveling Q'barra to see how the fledgling nation was holding itself together. All in all everyone will then benefit from the PCs capture: Q'barra has secured improved relations with the influental nation of Aundair, Riedra has put Q'barra in even greater debt and Queen Aurala gets the ones who murdered her cousin. It's all politics.
Ellorin 04-12-06, 04:01 AM	I wouldn't think that Q'Barrana are very interested in improving their relations with Aundair or any of the other 5 nations. Q'Barra was founded to maintain the united Galifar traditions, whereas they betrayed them.This is why they turned to other nations like Riedra or the Principalities in the first place...
Kolakuba 04-12-06, 04:26 AM	I can see a difference in ideology. But all the nations maintain diplomatic ties, and from what I can see on the maps, I believe Q'barra is dependent upon trade to supply much needed natural resources to their populace. And no nation can exist in a vacuum. I don't believe Aundair wants to much to do with Thrane, but they have no option but to maintain diplomatic ties because of the imminent threat of war. Q'barra would greatly benefit from at least cordial relations with Breland, Karrnath, Thrane and Aundair, because they are already being harassed by valenar warbands, and if there was to be another outbreak of war those raids would probably intensify. Having established good trading relations with the rest of Khorvaire in addition to Riedra with Q'barra's reportedly vast dragonshard deposits, could serve them well in a coming war when the need for magical supplies skyrocket. If Q'barra managed to remain a steady supplier of Eberron-shards in wartime as well, all the nations would have an interest in stopping the Valenar raiders from gaining any foothold in Q'barra. You could even call it ironic; the true adherents to the code of Galifar grows rich on the morally decayed nations of the once grand Galifar. I just can't see King Sebastes totally disregarding all the nations on his own continent in favor of a nation which is seperated from you with about 2000 miles of sea, even though they have very friendly relations. And they don't maintain good relations with the Principalities. They maintain diplomatic ties, so that they can put a stop to Lhazaar Piracy on Q'barran vessels and coastal communities.
Ellorin 04-12-06, 04:54 AM	I can see a difference in ideology. But all the nations maintain diplomatic ties, and from what I can see on the maps, I believe Q'barra is dependent upon trade to supply much needed natural resources to their populace. And no nation can exist in a vacuum. I don't believe Aundair wants to much to do with Thrane, but they have no option but to maintain diplomatic ties because of the imminent threat of war. Q'barra would greatly benefit from at least cordial relations with Breland, Karrnath, Thrane and Aundair, because they are already being harassed by valenar warbands, and if there was to be another outbreak of war those raids would probably intensify. Having established good trading relations with the rest of Khorvaire in addition to Riedra with Q'barra's reportedly vast dragonshard deposits, could serve them well in a coming war when the need for magical supplies skyrocket. If Q'barra managed to remain a steady supplier of Eberron-shards in wartime as well, all the nations would have an interest in stopping the Valenar raiders from gaining any foothold in Q'barra. You could even call it ironic; the true adherents to the code of Galifar grows rich on the morally decayed nations of the once grand Galifar. I just can't see King Sebastes totally disregarding all the nations on his own continent in favor of a nation which is seperated from you with about 2000 miles of sea, even though they have very friendly relations. And they don't maintain good relations with the Principalities. They maintain diplomatic ties, so that they can put a stop to Lhazaar Piracy on Q'barran vessels and coastal communities. Cordial is a very strong word...but Q'Barra can have some financial dealings with the 5 nations, although my guess is that they would mostly trade with Zilargo, the Principalities and Riedra(I'm not sure about Darguun).Diplomatic ties?Of course there will be-but rather cool, not cordial.Of course you are right, there would be benefits though.I just don't think their ideas would allow sush a thing, even if it would be a great help for a frontier nation like Q'Barra.And having a disdain for the 5 nations doesn't mean you disregard the whole continent...there are other countries too.
Kolakuba 04-12-06, 05:23 AM	And it says in the ECS that Q'barra has made overtures toward the Mror Holds and the Lhazaar Principalities. The Mror Holds holds considerable financial wealth, but is only a nation in name as the twelve clans constantly argue amongst themselves, and the Lhazaar Principalities can scarcely be called a nation but in name. But this doesn't change the fact that these nations can't be counted among the big movers on Khorvaire, and if Q'barra is to survive they are dependent upon outside help. Even though Riedra has considerable psionic power, and have the inspired, that doesn't change the fact that Riedra would have to maintain a supply line over some 2.000 miles of sea, and that would hardly make an effective way to defend a country during a prolonged war. I believe Sebastes ir'Kesslan must have seen this, even though he and his populace disdain the nations that once were Galifar. Feudal monarchies traditionally don't share every detail about their politics with the common populace, and I believe Sebastes ir'Kesslan understands that it is necessary for the young nation's survival to maintain a working relationship with the other nations, even though this isn't in accordance with neither his personal beliefs or his population's. I would think this especially applies to Karrnath, as Karrnath is the only nation capable of quickly establishing a front against Valenar. The three other remaining origional nations must pass natural barriers or hostile territory if taking the land route, and if you take the sizes of boats and their capacity as given in the Explorer's Handbook and Stormwrack into account it would be a massive operation just to transport the troops from Breland to Valenar and establish a front that can hold it's own in enemy territory. Leaders sometimes have to do things contrary to their own beliefs in order to serve the greater good. And Q'barra is desperately in need of this sort of pragmatism if it is to survive a second war. (everything in this post except the first paragrapth is pure speculation)
Wolfwood2 04-12-06, 07:09 AM	If the PCs get a public trial, they'll be able to speak in their own defense. And if they do that, they might start blathering on about how the queen's cousin murdered a village full of people. I think that would be something to avoid. And frankly, it seems more fun to have them pursued by a shadowy intelligence agency that is constantly on their heels than to have the government of every nation hunting them. I mean, what's the point in that? What's more fun here?
Kolakuba 04-12-06, 07:40 AM	If the PCs get a public trial, they'll be able to speak in their own defense. And if they do that, they might start blathering on about how the queen's cousin murdered a village full of people. I think that would be something to avoid. And frankly, it seems more fun to have them pursued by a shadowy intelligence agency that is constantly on their heels than to have the government of every nation hunting them. I mean, what's the point in that? What's more fun here? I'd say beiing chasen by a sinister intelligence agency. If you're referring to Ellorin and me discussing Q'barran foreign policy, when you say "hunted by the government of every nation, I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Don't they use Aureon's Circle for trials on Khorvaire. I fully support your wiew that the Royal Eyes would rather see the adventurers dead than put to court.
Just another user 04-12-06, 08:10 AM	But just (highlighted text) this could make it easy for Aundair to apply political pressure on Q'barra and through promises of financial aid, get Q'barra to conduct a full investigation, perhaps calling on the sentinel marshalls for help since Q'barra is their jurisdiction. But would not this mean they had to explain why they have so much interest in a mr. Nobody, or if they do, what in Dolurrh the cousin of queen Aurala in Q'barra under false identity, And I doubt they want that. Darthmidget: maybe the players don't know what "the cousin of the queen of Aundair would imply, but wasn't possible that the PCs should have known? A thing you must pay attention, BTW, is that at animals humanoids looks much one alike to the other, it is enough if they can say apart a human from an halfling. I think that at best they can tell them the races of the party, even if something like "3 tall ones and 2 small ones" sound more probable to me.
Sereno 04-12-06, 09:41 AM	Huh? The government of Q'barra doesn't have a problem with agents of Aundair slaughtering an entire village of their people? I think the Q'barrans would probably salute the PCs for bringing in the "perpetrator" of this evil attack on an innocent village. I doubt it will matter that he never really ordered the attack ... he was there in Q'barra, doing shifty spy-like stuff. The Q'barrans might have executed the guy just for being a spy! Even if they don't strongly take the side of the PCs I doubt the Q'barran government would do much to pursue this case. Aundair is a LONG way from Q'barra and any political pressure the could bring to bear would be slight in comparison to the interests of the nations immediately around them and within. I can see Reidran agents siding with the PCs and the Q'barrans as it would help to *increase* tensions in Khorvaire which might hasten the next war and give the Riedrans the "in" they need to take over, just as they did in Sarlona. This Aundairian nobleman can be the next war's Archduke Ferdinand!
stone_dog 04-12-06, 10:09 AM	Funny you named the thread this when Mr Baker wrote a d20 book on the subject! (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589780396/102-8504963-5120113?v=glance&n=283155) It is very good and may help you out a bit!
Kreistor1 04-12-06, 11:17 AM	Q'barra is trying to be the epitome of Galifar. It will hold to the Code of Galifar as rigorously as possible. As such, their actions in interogating Uoman were reprensible and unforgivable. The PC's are looking at a Death Sentence. I play my campaign as mid-late 1800's, so the authorities have rudimentary ideas about evidence and whether it is admissable. Speak with Animals may be used in the course of investigation to guide the police to the killers, but it's not admissable in the court (can't cross-examine a horse). The authorities need some hard evidence and solid proof. I also disallow Zone of Truth (which is suggested as being used in Sharn), because even in the 1800's, you could not be forced to testify against yourself. The party left evidence all over. Footprints in the stable. The placement of the attacks. And so on. They can't account for their whereabouts. And so on. It didn't take as much evidence in the 1800's as it does today to hang someone. It's obvious to me the players are still thinking the authorities are stuck in the 1200's. Frankly, such shoddy work would end the campaign and force a "write new characters" event to me. All it takes to interrogate someone is Suggestion: I suggest you answer all of our questions truthfully. No fuss, no mess.
DarthMidget 04-12-06, 12:40 PM	You introduced an NPC connected with a group who killed the entire village of the PCs, including all their families. You were planning on them killing this guy, right? Because I don't see how they could do anything else. Dude had it coming. Oh, agreed, the PCs had a proper motivation to be rather ruthless. My problem is they were kind of lazy about hiding it. ;) Darthmidget: maybe the players don't know what "the cousin of the queen of Aundair would imply, but wasn't possible that the PCs should have known? Not really, the PCs are from a refugee village that's 'not on the map' so to speak (basically an in-game way to justify the player's lack of knowledge). So the PCs and the Players don't know much about Khorvaire. Huh? The government of Q'barra doesn't have a problem with agents of Aundair slaughtering an entire village of their people? The village isn't Q'barran. The village was on an island east of Q'barra. It was a refugee village set up after the Last War in now ay affiliated with the government of Q'barra. As a matter of fact the throne never even knew the village existed (nor did most other people for that matter). Q'barra is trying to be the epitome of Galifar. It will hold to the Code of Galifar as rigorously as possible. As such, their actions in interogating Uoman were reprensible and unforgivable. The PC's are looking at a Death Sentence. I play my campaign as mid-late 1800's, so the authorities have rudimentary ideas about evidence and whether it is admissable. Speak with Animals may be used in the course of investigation to guide the police to the killers, but it's not admissable in the court (can't cross-examine a horse). The authorities need some hard evidence and solid proof. I also disallow Zone of Truth (which is suggested as being used in Sharn), because even in the 1800's, you could not be forced to testify against yourself. Interesting points, and good ones. I think I'll be using them. ;) The party left evidence all over. Footprints in the stable. The placement of the attacks. And so on. They can't account for their whereabouts. And so on. It didn't take as much evidence in the 1800's as it does today to hang someone. It's obvious to me the players are still thinking the authorities are stuck in the 1200's. Yup. The PCs are acting like its a medieval setting when I've told them countless times that Eberron is more sophisticated than the Dark Ages. Maybe it'll sink in once they get arrested or hunted by the Eyes. Frankly, such shoddy work would end the campaign and force a "write new characters" event to me. All it takes to interrogate someone is Suggestion: I suggest you answer all of our questions truthfully. No fuss, no mess. I agree, but I'm not sure I want to end the campaign. For one this is the first Eberron game and we've only played one session. :D Still, though, I have to agree that the that is the most likely and logical outcome. It is something I will have to consider.
Kreistor1 04-12-06, 01:29 PM	Actually, that it happens in the first session is the best thing. They've got no attachment to these characters, and it's a great object lesson to the players. My lessons had to come later in my campaign, so I had to soften the blow. (Fortunately, the situation was such that I could, while still making it clear this would have been a character ender normally.) Now the players are all about using the law for their own benefit, so my non-Evil villains have to be a bit more cagey.
Sereno 04-12-06, 02:07 PM	Actually, that it happens in the first session is the best thing. They've got no attachment to these characters, and it's a great object lesson to the players. It can also server as an object lesson to the DM to be careful in setting up his campaign with his players "custom-made" with an overpowering hatred for a particular organization. Having the "secret service" of a nation completely wipe out their village (were the PCs the only survivors?) is a pretty brutal way to start a campaign. I'm not surprised the PCs reacted with brutality when they met the person the believed was responsible. To then bring the might of two nations down on the PCs is overkill....
Wolfwood2 04-12-06, 02:29 PM	Oh, agreed, the PCs had a proper motivation to be rather ruthless. My problem is they were kind of lazy about hiding it. ;) It doesn't sound to me like they really put a lot of thought into it. Still, they tricked the guy into going off alone and disposed of him without any witnesses. (They can be excused for not thinking of Speak with Animals.) Frankly, that's more than 90% of murderers think to do. Obviously these players aren't interested in playing Ocean's 11 and dancing carefully around the law. And that's okay, because there's plenty of places in Eberron to pound on bad guys without worrying if anyone saw you do it. That may not be the campaign you planned on, so you and your players should have an OOC discussion and make sure you're on the same page. The village isn't Q'barran. The village was on an island east of Q'barra. It was a refugee village set up after the Last War in now ay affiliated with the government of Q'barra. As a matter of fact the throne never even knew the village existed (nor did most other people for that matter). Why in the world would a bunch of Royal Eyes, who are mostly interested in activities of the Five Nations, go kill a village of refugees? I'm sure you have an explanation, but it seems uncharacteristically bloodthirsty and blatant for an organization of spooks and information-gatherers. Yup. The PCs are acting like its a medieval setting when I've told them countless times that Eberron is more sophisticated than the Dark Ages. Maybe it'll sink in once they get arrested or hunted by the Eyes. I agree, but I'm not sure I want to end the campaign. For one this is the first Eberron game and we've only played one session. :D Still, though, I have to agree that the that is the most likely and logical outcome. It is something I will have to consider. I'd have to consider it more a failure of the DM than a failure of the players if you do that. Obviously you set up a situation that was supposed to be handled with intrigue and stealth without either making it clear to the players that was what you wanted, or without making sure the players buy into it. The lesson they learn is, make PCs without families and don't bite on DM plothooks. "This guy killed my entire family? Eh, revenge didn't work so well for the last character. Let's go to Sharn instead."
Kreistor1 04-12-06, 03:08 PM	Sereno, yes, but only to a certain extent. I note that the DM does state he informed teh players of the more advanced social setting they were present in. Is it reasonable for people to react this way (not players, I mean and state people)? I don't think so. Vengeance is a part of people's make-up, but torture and brutality of this type is most certainly not a common event in the 1800's, unless it's state sponsored. I think it's more a case of the players doing it anyway, and expecting teh DM to allow their excesses to pass unpunished, as can happen in an earlier setting. In short, the players did not have proof positive that this person was responsible or directly related, just potentially involved. Torture and abuse is an improper response, because he was potentially innocent, and thus the PC's went much further than anyone would consider reasonable. If the players want to ignore all the hints and do what they want, as if they were a law unto themselves, then it is time to lay them low and make certain they understand the complete lack of heroism in their actions. Frankly, I would have made the victim retroactively a fall guy, completely innocent, and let them chew on that while their characters are hanged. Just to turn the screws even deeper.
Sereno 04-12-06, 03:29 PM	Sereno, yes, but only to a certain extent. I note that the DM does state he informed teh players of the more advanced social setting they were present in. Is it reasonable for people to react this way (not players, I mean and state people)? I don't think so. Vengeance is a part of people's make-up, but torture and brutality of this type is most certainly not a common event in the 1800's, unless it's state sponsored.. A lot of very "noir" characters behave exactly like this; Frank Miller's Sin City has a couple of them. So does the Punisher. Lots of perfectly "normal" characters can be driven to acts of brutality in a quest for vengeance. And, while I agree that in many ways Eberronian society doesn't quite follow a medieval model, I don't think it's fair to impose an 1800s England/Europe/US mentality on the PCs. Even on Earth, today, vengeance killings still occur in some societies. It's not too surprising to find something similar in Q'barra on Eberron.... I think it's more a case of the players doing it anyway, and expecting teh DM to allow their excesses to pass unpunished, as can happen in an earlier setting. In short, the players did not have proof positive that this person was responsible or directly related, just potentially involved. Torture and abuse is an improper response, because he was potentially innocent, and thus the PC's went much further than anyone would consider reasonable. I'm not necessarily justifying the PCs behavoir, and you might be right that they only did it because they thought the DM would let them, but the PCs aren't District Attorneys and need to prove things beyong a "reasonable doubt". After their town was wiped out by the Aundairian Royal Eyes strike team, I think it's perfectly fine that they assumed another Aundairian of the same organization is involved. If the players want to ignore all the hints and do what they want, as if they were a law unto themselves, then it is time to lay them low and make certain they understand the complete lack of heroism in their actions. Frankly, I would have made the victim retroactively a fall guy, completely innocent, and let them chew on that while their characters are hanged. Just to turn the screws even deeper. But, that would just be to "screw" the players. I doubt the PCs had any visions of heroism in their brutality ... but I bet getting vengeance was pretty plain. It was the DM who set the campaign up with "your village has just been *destroyed* by the Aundairian Royal Eyes ... and then threw them a high-ranking member of the Royal Eyes who "did" appear to be involved.
DarthMidget 04-12-06, 04:01 PM	Having the "secret service" of a nation completely wipe out their village (were the PCs the only survivors?) is a pretty brutal way to start a campaign. I'm not surprised the PCs reacted with brutality when they met the person the believed was responsible. Actually they didn't know for sure he was involved. They simply knew he had some relationship to the marauders who destroyed the village. Also, I should mention that the PCs DIDN'T attempt to question him - they simply started torturing him until he died. To then bring the might of two nations down on the PCs is overkill.... Not really, look at it this way: no one in authority in Q'barra knows the Eyes destroyed the PCs village. Only the PCs and the Eyes know that. As such to Q'barran authorities it looks as if the PCs simply murdered a nobleman and his associates. As such, from the NPC point of view the PCs are rogue killers and nothing more. It doesn't sound to me like they really put a lot of thought into it. Still, they tricked the guy into going off alone and disposed of him without any witnesses. (They can be excused for not thinking of Speak with Animals.) Frankly, that's more than 90% of murderers think to do. Their capture of the nobleman was quite clever actually, but after that things got sloppy. Why in the world would a bunch of Royal Eyes, who are mostly interested in activities of the Five Nations, go kill a village of refugees? I'm sure you have an explanation, but it seems uncharacteristically bloodthirsty and blatant for an organization of spooks and information-gatherers. It is! :) The attack was carried out by an Eye agent who is basically a psychopath. His orders were to investigate the village due to reports there was a Targath mine there (there is). The Eye wanted the metal because they thought it would help them fight Karrnathi undead. The agent-in-charge was supposed to negotiate for the mine, but when he discovered the refugees had very little connection to the outside world he simply slaughtered them and pocketed the negotiation money. I'd have to consider it more a failure of the DM than a failure of the players if you do that. Obviously you set up a situation that was supposed to be handled with intrigue and stealth without either making it clear to the players that was what you wanted, or without making sure the players buy into it. I disagree. I am fine with however the PCs handle the situation. If they want to cut a bloody swath through the Eye to find the man that gave the order I don't have a problem. :) My issue was one regarding crime & punishment. Simply because the PCs have a justification for murder doesn't mean local authorities (who don't really know what is going on) are going to let them get away with it. Understand, I'm not trying to 'punish' the PCs for torture/murder. I'm not going to impose my own morality on them. What I will do is attempt to play NPCs organizations (i.e. police/judiciary) realistically. Frankly, I would have made the victim retroactively a fall guy, completely innocent, and let them chew on that while their characters are hanged. Just to turn the screws even deeper. In a away he is. The nobleman knew the village was wiped out, but the Eye agent responsible informed him that they were evil cultists who attacked him. So the nobleman knew all about it, but didn't realize the Eye had inadvertently slaughtered a village of refugees. A lot of very "noir" characters behave exactly like this; Frank Miller's Sin City has a couple of them. So does the Punisher. Lots of perfectly "normal" characters can be driven to acts of brutality in a quest for vengeance. While that is true, it's also true that in both instances the police are hunting the anti-heroes. It was the DM who set the campaign up with "your village has just been *destroyed* by the Aundairian Royal Eyes ... and then threw them a high-ranking member of the Royal Eyes who "did" appear to be involved. While it is true that they hunted down someone they thought was involved it is important to mention again that they never attempted to question the man. They simply began torturing him - brutally and remorselessly. Now, again, I'm not going to judge the morality of my player's characters. The question is: what would local authorities do? I think they'll hunt the PCs down and hang them for what is seen as simple murder.
Sereno 04-12-06, 04:28 PM	In a away he is. The nobleman knew the village was wiped out, but the Eye agent responsible informed him that they were evil cultists who attacked him. So the nobleman knew all about it, but didn't realize the Eye had inadvertently slaughtered a village of refugees. While that is true, it's also true that in both instances the police are hunting the anti-heroes. While it is true that they hunted down someone they thought was involved it is important to mention again that they never attempted to question the man. They simply began torturing him - brutally and remorselessly. Now, again, I'm not going to judge the morality of my player's characters. The question is: what would local authorities do? I think they'll hunt the PCs down and hang them for what is seen as simple murder. I do agree with you that the authorities should be hunting them down. And, likewise, I agree that it was wrong of them to just start in with torturing the guy when he only seemed like the likely cause of the massacre. This is a pretty tough way to begin a campaign, I must admit! :) It certainly has a lot of potential to be very much more "noir" than "pulp." The way I see it, if you actually want to continue this campaign, you're going to have to provide a believable "way out" for the PCs. By now, they've not only got the legitimate authority after them for the murder, they've also got the psychotic Aundairian to deal with, too. Perhaps an intervention by an anti-Aundair/"Free Q'barra" group, who also knows about the massacre, could give the PCs just enough to escape the noose currently settling around their necks. So long as someone knows what really happened (as far as the town goes) they could get a small amount of help avoiding the authorities. Playing hunted anti-heros can make for a fun campaign. However, you do need to make it perfectly clear to the PCs that what they did was wrong (on several levels). If you can do it in-game, it would probably be even better.
Kreistor1 04-12-06, 04:42 PM	Well, my first arguments are that Sin City and the Punisher are either not Noir, or not the Noir spoken of in Pulp Noir. You need to go to the 50's and 60's for Noir examples, and neither of these fit that bill. Sin City, though filmed in Black and White, is not Noir in teh correct sense. It has tragic heroes which essentially qualify it, but the brutality in taht is beyond that which the Noir genre allowed. And the Punisher is based on Mack Bolan, the Executioner. Both Punisher and Bolan kept under the police radar, and neither torture people they are not 100% certain aren't guilty of something. They don't fish for information. And, while I agree that in many ways Eberronian society doesn't quite follow a medieval model, I don't think it's fair to impose an 1800s England/Europe/US mentality on the PCs. Uhm... not all RPG's are set in the 1200's, you know. Many are in the modern era (in fact, I believe there's a D20 Modern system kicking around), post-modern (Cyberpunk), and science fiction (Traveller, Star Wars, etc.). So, no, it certainly is fair to impose an 1800's legal model, as well as a 2000, 2100, 3000, 40000... the PCs aren't District Attorneys and need to prove things beyong a "reasonable doubt" Right. So the PC's need to err on the side of caution. Erring on the side of "hurting people until someone tells us what we need to know" is, frankly, evil, and the players need to learn that lesson. The "ends justify the means" is lawful evil, if you were unaware. After their town was wiped out by the Aundairian Royal Eyes strike team, I think it's perfectly fine that they assumed another Aundairian of the same organization is involved. Correct. It is a good assumption. But assumptions are not actions. It was the action of torture that put the players in trouble, not the action of thinking an Aundairan is involved. After their town was wiped out by the Aundairian Royal Eyes strike team, Was it? Was it really? How can the PC's be so certain someone didn't dress up as them and incriminate the wrong people? Classic intrigue play. The players went way too far, and it is nowhere near a reasonable conclusion that torture was the only PC option in this situation, so it is not 100% predictable that he PC's would go there. Charm Person, Suggestion, and Dominate are all reasonable options, as well as Zone of Truth and other Clerical divinations. In fact, even Augury... "We are going to torture this man for information concerning the destuction of our village." would come up with a Woe result, if the DM knew the players would push until he died or if he knew the authorities would find the crime and jail the players. (I wouldn't even roll the D100 for that one. It's info I want the players to have.) Unless this act of torture was inevitable, the DM cannot be faulted for creating the situation. Since it is entirely not inevitable, and there were many ways to investigate the situation that did not result in this guy dying, it's all on the players' heads.
DarthMidget 04-12-06, 04:47 PM	The way I see it, if you actually want to continue this campaign, you're going to have to provide a believable "way out" for the PCs. By now, they've not only got the legitimate authority after them for the murder, they've also got the psychotic Aundairian to deal with, too. Perhaps an intervention by an anti-Aundair/"Free Q'barra" group, who also knows about the massacre, could give the PCs just enough to escape the noose currently settling around their necks. So long as someone knows what really happened (as far as the town goes) they could get a small amount of help avoiding the authorities. Yeah, that's part of the issue I'm having. I pride myself on playing NPCs as true to themselves as possible. So there's really no way for me to justify letting the PCs get away with it. Now I had thought about some sort of intervention. The problem I'm running into there is no one else knows that the village was destroyed. This little town (about 100+) had isolated itself from Khorvaire. They had almost no contact with anyone else (in part to explain why the characters know nothing about Khorvaire - since the players actually don't). So only the Eyes know the truth of what happened and according to their 'trusted' agent the village was full of murdering cultists. The brutal murderer of Queen Aurala's cousin has only solidified this view. I had thought of one ally the PC's might get, but it could be a longshot. One of the PCs has an abberant mark which he has hidden. I thought maybe introducing a secret member of the Chamber who aids the PCs. This dragon only does so because he is interested in learning more about aberrant marks. Thoughts on that? That's really the only ally that would help the PCs since that's the only group/person I can think of that would have an interest in helping them and even know enough about what's going on to do so. Playing hunted anti-heros can make for a fun campaign. I agree. It could be very interesting. However, you do need to make it perfectly clear to the PCs that what they did was wrong (on several levels). If you can do it in-game, it would probably be even better. Well I have to do it in game since I refuse to explain the situation to them out of game. :) I think the best way to do it might be to have them arrested and detained. Throughout the interrogation process facts could slowly be brought to light about the true nature of their crime. Of course to further this period of 'enlightenment' the Royal Eyes might break the PCs out. The Eyes could do this to interrogate the PCs themselves. The Eye aspect I'm a little iffy on though. Some ideas on how to justify/explain/resolve that part would be welcome. Also any other ideas on how to proceede would be good. My basic thoughts going forward are: 1. Q'barran authorities investigate the bodies found in the stable. They determine it is the PCs in 1d4 days. 2. The Royal Eyes eventually figure out the PCs involvement in 1d8 days. I figure it would take the Eyes longer since they have relatively few assets in Adderport. 3. The Q'barrans send messages via House Sivis across the kingdom to arrest the PCs. This will be done even more emphatically once it is learned that the dead human is Uoman ir'Wynarn. The Q'barrans, while having no great love for Aundair, have no desire to give Aurala a reason to hate them. 4. Once the Eye figures out what is going on they will dispatch a strike team. Now, the PCs are 2nd level. I figure with the death of such an important figure the Eyes would pull any punches. So, what sort of clandestine force would they send to 'deal with the incident'? 5. If the Q'barrans arrest the PCs there will be a lengthy interrogation and eventually a trial. Now only one of the PCs and one NPC, a rogue and warforged mercenary, actually tortured the victims. The other three PCs aided in the kidnapping, but did not actually murder anyone. As such what do you guys think the relative punishments would be? Oh, btw the rogue is a changeling. My thoughts are that the changeling and the 'forged would be executed as quickly as possible. The other three: shifter, human, & human might not be. Of course they were accomplices so they could still be executed, but perhaps some sort of imprisonment? Perhaps to that prison in Lhazaar?
Wolfwood2 04-12-06, 05:35 PM	Yeah, that's part of the issue I'm having. I pride myself on playing NPCs as true to themselves as possible. So there's really no way for me to justify letting the PCs get away with it. See, I think that's bad DMing. "Realism" is overrated, and your primary motivation should always going to be, "What will be fun to play the next time my gaming group spends a few hours together?" not "What will be realistic?" Your NPCs aren't real, and whether they be true to themselves is rather less important than the players having fun. If necessary, you can always retcon things. Maybe the guy wasn't really the cousin of the queen. Maybe he was some dude impersonating him. Maybe this, maybe that, the point is don't let yourself get locked into playing out a foregone conclusion that you know is going to be a huge downer. If you really can't do that, then better to skim over it rather than waste the valuable time of the players (the only real people in the equation) with playing things out. Just sit them down at the beginning of the next gaming session and tell 'em their characters have been captured and executed and start over. Now I had thought about some sort of intervention. The problem I'm running into there is no one else knows that the village was destroyed. This little town (about 100+) had isolated itself from Khorvaire. They had almost no contact with anyone else (in part to explain why the characters know nothing about Khorvaire - since the players actually don't). Unless of course somebody does know and does care. Anything the PCs haven't investigated and learned in-game is still fair game to change. Just because it's in your notes doesn't mean you're stuck with it. I had thought of one ally the PC's might get, but it could be a longshot. One of the PCs has an abberant mark which he has hidden. I thought maybe introducing a secret member of the Chamber who aids the PCs. This dragon only does so because he is interested in learning more about aberrant marks. Thoughts on that? That's really the only ally that would help the PCs since that's the only group/person I can think of that would have an interest in helping them and even know enough about what's going on to do so. I don't know, there have to be a lot of people who don't like the Royal Eyes. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Also any other ideas on how to proceede would be good. My basic thoughts going forward are: 1. Q'barran authorities investigate the bodies found in the stable. They determine it is the PCs in 1d4 days. 2. The Royal Eyes eventually figure out the PCs involvement in 1d8 days. I figure it would take the Eyes longer since they have relatively few assets in Adderport. 3. The Q'barrans send messages via House Sivis across the kingdom to arrest the PCs. This will be done even more emphatically once it is learned that the dead human is Uoman ir'Wynarn. The Q'barrans, while having no great love for Aundair, have no desire to give Aurala a reason to hate them. I thought the "kingdom" of Q'barra consisted of about one largish town plus a few fishing villages. 4. Once the Eye figures out what is going on they will dispatch a strike team. Now, the PCs are 2nd level. I figure with the death of such an important figure the Eyes would pull any punches. So, what sort of clandestine force would they send to 'deal with the incident'? I'd suggest a bard accompanied by a fighter for back-up. The Eyes are going to want to know why the cousin was killed and if anyone else was involved. As someone else suggested earlier in the thread, magic makes interrogations a lot easier. Likely the bard will try to get one of the PCs alone (whomever is judged to have the lowest Will save) and then use Charm Person or Suggestion for a "soft" interogation technique. After they get the information, how they act will depend on their individual personalities and discretion. 5. If the Q'barrans arrest the PCs there will be a lengthy interrogation and eventually a trial. Now only one of the PCs and one NPC, a rogue and warforged mercenary, actually tortured the victims. The other three PCs aided in the kidnapping, but did not actually murder anyone. As such what do you guys think the relative punishments would be? Oh, btw the rogue is a changeling. My thoughts are that the changeling and the 'forged would be executed as quickly as possible. The other three: shifter, human, & human might not be. Of course they were accomplices so they could still be executed, but perhaps some sort of imprisonment? Perhaps to that prison in Lhazaar? As a practical matter, it's probably best to have all the PCs get the same sentence. Not too illogical either. Likely the hangman's noose for them all, unless of course a mission were to arise that's so suicidally dangerous that only men who had already been condemned to death could possibly be used.... (And so a new adventure begins.)
Wolfwood2 04-12-06, 05:38 PM	The players went way too far, and it is nowhere near a reasonable conclusion that torture was the only PC option in this situation, so it is not 100% predictable that he PC's would go there. Charm Person, Suggestion, and Dominate are all reasonable options, as well as Zone of Truth and other Clerical divinations. In fact, even Augury... "We are going to torture this man for information concerning the destuction of our village." would come up with a Woe result, if the DM knew the players would push until he died or if he knew the authorities would find the crime and jail the players. (I wouldn't even roll the D100 for that one. It's info I want the players to have.) The PCs are only second level. All of the magic you mention except Charm Person is beyond them, and there's no guarantee one of the PCs has access to Charm Person. Unless this act of torture was inevitable, the DM cannot be faulted for creating the situation. Since it is entirely not inevitable, and there were many ways to investigate the situation that did not result in this guy dying, it's all on the players' heads. But the important thing is that everybody has a good time next time they meet to play RPGs, right?
Kreistor1 04-12-06, 05:42 PM	I thought the "kingdom" of Q'barra consisted of about one largish town plus a few fishing villages. Well, it depends how you interpret the map. Yes, only one large town/small city in Newtrone, but it's hard to tell if Newthrone is actually in the area calling itself New Galifar. That looks to be the cleared spot in the Southwest, and one would think there should be more cleared towards Newthrone if they were feeder towns. Cities need foor produciton surrounding them to survive, and so I'd say there has to be more cleared around Newthrone (and Adderport for that matter) just to keep the cities alive. That means more than just a few fishing villages. And, given that there are infrequent Pirate and Raider incursions, it's got to have more than jsut a little area that gets looted by everyone in the region every few months. It's got to have a lot more, to support what's supposed to happen there.
Kreistor1 04-12-06, 05:45 PM	Wolfwood, something like this is worth a scroll, don't you think? Vital info about your town's annihilation? And, like I said, Augury (1st level) can even help. There are more solutions than torture. Diplomacy. Intimidation. And there's even, oh woe is me, watching the guy until he commits a crime (which as a bad guy he will do) and then extorting the information. There are literally hundreds of ways to play this, and I don't even have to start on magic to get most of them to work. They chose poorly.
Just another user 04-12-06, 05:58 PM	Do they have seen the face of the psicopath Aundarian that exterminated thier village? Could they recognize him? If not I have an idea. Make the psicopath help them. Killing the nobleman they made him a favor, the dead man was beginning to suspect about him and he would have killed the guy by himself if they hadn't saved him the trouble, of course he would not tell them that. He'll organize their escape and will tell them same lie, for example, that he is an agent of the eyes investigating about a corrupt section of that organizzation that worship the dragon below and that, of course, was the responsible of their village destruction, or some other story like that What he is actually planning is to use them as a scapegoat for something he is organizing, some great attentat that he is preparing and that think to blame on them after it is done, so that he can capture them (bringing them in dead, of course and dead ina way that speak with dead would not work) and in doing so raising in position and reputation to the top tiers of the Eyes of Aundair. If they have seen him, then you can try it all the same, there is a number of way to hide his face, from a mask, to some form of disguise magical or mundane (he is a spy, after all) and he helped them escape beside the pevious reasons because he is not sure how much they actually know and that they could tell to someone about him: Like the queen's cousin there other people in the Eyes that are beggining to suspect about him, and he don't want to take too many risks.
Just another user 04-12-06, 06:07 PM	I thought the "kingdom" of Q'barra consisted of about one largish town plus a few fishing villages. IIRC In Q'barra humans live in two zones, new galifar, that is essentialy civilized and Hope that is, more or less, "no man's land" with a lot of uncarted little villages that stay around until the kobolds or the lizardman don't choose to attack them, if the Pcs goes there they could be not so easy to find.
DarthMidget 04-12-06, 09:24 PM	See, I think that's bad DMing. "Realism" is overrated, and your primary motivation should always going to be, "What will be fun to play the next time my gaming group spends a few hours together?" not "What will be realistic?" Well I disagree. To me having fun with D&D is based on immersion - losing myself in another world. If things start happening that don't make sense based on that world's own 'reality' then I the immersion starts to break. It's why I don't like the concept of Deus Ex Machine in RPG games. Also I player more of a sandbox mode D&D. The PCs know they can go anywhere and do anything. I refuse to railroad them into specific quest that I want to do. My only caveat is that there will be consequences. Usually this is something along the lines of: If you enter the dragon's lair then he will eat you. In this case it seems to be a run in with the law. The players chose to murder/torture someone. If I let them get away with it wouldn't that destroy the immersion of the experience? If you really can't do that, then better to skim over it rather than waste the valuable time of the players (the only real people in the equation) with playing things out. Just sit them down at the beginning of the next gaming session and tell 'em their characters have been captured and executed and start over. Actually I'm quite sure my players would hate that far more than dealing with an arrest, interrogation, and trial. If I were to try to immediatly start up a new game there would be objections. I have to at least give them a chance to escape - even if they fail that is likely what my group would demand. Also I want them to further understand Khorvaire, that it's not a typical D&D world. I think I have a good chance to do that by showing them the legal side of things. But the important thing is that everybody has a good time next time they meet to play RPGs, right? Yes. Answer this though: would my players have fun if I just handed them victory after victory on a silver platter? Where is the glory of success without the chance of shameful failure?
Sereno 04-13-06, 09:24 AM	Uhm... not all RPG's are set in the 1200's, you know. Many are in the modern era (in fact, I believe there's a D20 Modern system kicking around), post-modern (Cyberpunk), and science fiction (Traveller, Star Wars, etc.). So, no, it certainly is fair to impose an 1800's legal model, as well as a 2000, 2100, 3000, 40000... Yeah ... but we're playing on Eberron, not d20 Modern or and sort of futuristic RPG. Sure it's fair to impose a more "enlightened" legal model, but the players should know about it. The only thing I've seen about legal models in the Eberron sourcebooks is in the Sharn book ... and Sharn certainly isn't the rest of Khorvaire. Right. So the PC's need to err on the side of caution. Erring on the side of "hurting people until someone tells us what we need to know" is, frankly, evil, and the players need to learn that lesson. The "ends justify the means" is lawful evil, if you were unaware. Actually, they DON'T need to err on the side of caution. They AREN'T agents of a lawful government. And, yes, I completely agree that their actions were lawful evil. So? They're setting themselves up as classic anti-heros. They're bringing bad guys to justice through brutal means of their own. They're certainly no paragons of virtue, but nobody said you have to play a group of paladins to enjoy and Eberron campaign. Maybe they'll turn this into an "evil fights evil" campaign.... Correct. It is a good assumption. But assumptions are not actions. It was the action of torture that put the players in trouble, not the action of thinking an Aundairan is involved. Was it? Was it really? How can the PC's be so certain someone didn't dress up as them and incriminate the wrong people? Classic intrigue play. Well, according to the DM it was. They were following the evidence they had. I'm not arguing that they weren't brutal, but they were following the leads their DM gave them. The players went way too far, and it is nowhere near a reasonable conclusion that torture was the only PC option in this situation, so it is not 100% predictable that he PC's would go there. Charm Person, Suggestion, and Dominate are all reasonable options, as well as Zone of Truth and other Clerical divinations. In fact, even Augury... "We are going to torture this man for information concerning the destuction of our village." would come up with a Woe result, if the DM knew the players would push until he died or if he knew the authorities would find the crime and jail the players. (I wouldn't even roll the D100 for that one. It's info I want the players to have.) Unless this act of torture was inevitable, the DM cannot be faulted for creating the situation. Since it is entirely not inevitable, and there were many ways to investigate the situation that did not result in this guy dying, it's all on the players' heads. Again, I'm not saying the torture was the DM's fault or at all appropriate in any way. But, the DM did start them out on a brutal path on his own. To start a campaign tracking down the people who slaughtered your entire village sets a distinct tone. There are tons of options, I agree, but they might not have been available to the PCs.
Sereno 04-13-06, 09:40 AM	Well I have to do it in game since I refuse to explain the situation to them out of game. :) I think the best way to do it might be to have them arrested and detained. Throughout the interrogation process facts could slowly be brought to light about the true nature of their crime. Of course to further this period of 'enlightenment' the Royal Eyes might break the PCs out. The Eyes could do this to interrogate the PCs themselves. The Eye aspect I'm a little iffy on though. Some ideas on how to justify/explain/resolve that part would be welcome. You really should take a few minutes to explain a few things about Eberron to your players. Even if they've grown up on an island they still should know something about their world. The problem with having them arrested is that until you spring them, you'll basically be railroading them. That's another bad way to start a campaign. I really like Just Another User's idea that the help actually comes from the psycho that they're trying to catch. That would make for an excellent twist. So long as the PCs don't immediately find out who helped them, they can remain "on the run" and continue to hunt the man who helped free them! :)
Kreistor1 04-13-06, 12:33 PM	S: the PCs aren't District Attorneys and need to prove things beyong a "reasonable doubt" K: Right. So the PC's need to err on the side of caution. S: Actually, they DON'T need to err on the side of caution. They AREN'T agents of a lawful government. I think you got confused here. We're still talking about these guys going to jail for their actions. If not going to jail is a concern for the players, then erring on the side of caution is prudent. No, they don't know the Law like DA's, but since you don't, and that law can put you in jail, being cautious is the only way to avoid it slamming down on you. If you don't know the Law and violate it, you're still going to be hanged for your crime. Not knowing the Law means you better be careful where the Death Penalty is common. They're setting themselves up as classic anti-heros. They're bringing bad guys to justice through brutal means of their own. There is a not so fine line between anti-hero and villain. Classic anti-heroes buck authority, use quasi-legal means, and ignore their superiors. Notice that in Sin City, Marv dies for his crimes (and others), but he avoids being stopped earlier by fighting the Law, who is a part of the crime he is fighting. Marv is fine as anti-hero against the cops who are, to a certain extent, the villains. Hartigan justifies Marv by revealing that all the cops know abotu the Farm and to avoid it. Marv, placed in a situation opposed to the true source of power in Sin City, has no choice in his direction. He chooses to treat other criminals with brutality, but as he says he's just working his way up the food chain. In this case, the Q'barran law is not complicit in the crime and not corrupt. Marv's techniques, if used by the PC's, are heinous and unjustifiable to the reader. Consider Dwight (another anti-hero) when taking the bodies to the pit, says clearly that he doesn't want to kill the cop that stops him for the busted taillight, because he might be one of the rare good ones. To Dwight, since the cops were not a part of his problem, were not touchable. That's the limit on the fine line: if the cops are involved in the crime, they can be touched. If they are not, they're generally good guys (or at least guys with unknown intent) and not touchable. The PC's, in this case, did not have a guilty man, just a man with some information. They killed someone only loosely related to the crime. That is the same as Dwight killing the cop, not Marv killing the assassins that started the food chain. Dwight didn't cross that line because he knew crossing it made him a villain, and lives to another adventure. Marv did cross that line, and died for it. Nobility of purpose does not justify all actions. Anti-hero and villain are very close in style, but the difference is that the anti-hero's intent is noble. I do not see any noble intent in what the PC's did here. It was not necessary and not reasonable to the situation. They went all Marv in a place they needed to be Dwight. That's not classic anti-hero: that's classic villain. Well, according to the DM it was. They were following the evidence they had. What the players "know" is not what the DM "knows". The Dm always knows the truth. The players can never be so certain. I'm demonstrating that to my players right now with a fairly simple intrigue. Three weeks ago, they "knew" some people they'd met to be good people. Then they "knew" they'd been fooled by those people, and had to seek them out to protect themselves. Then they "knew" it wasn't just two guys and their pony, like they'd been told. Now they "know" that the criminals have certain support, and that support has an agenda. Next week, they'll know that everything their prey knows is wrong, too, and that all the PC's have been told is actually wrong, though they won't know it. And then the PC's will see a Truth, but will they believe that to be the ultimate Truth, or was even that Truth manipulated by hidden agendas? Eberron is awash in intrigue at all levels of society. The PC's should never treat anything as "known", until they have rock solid proof. And even then, they should second guess themselves. Again, I'm not saying the torture was the DM's fault or at all appropriate in any way. But, the DM did start them out on a brutal path on his own. To start a campaign tracking down the people who slaughtered your entire village sets a distinct tone. I don't draw that parallel. Lots of noble and good campaigns have started with such events, and the PC's don't always turn to evil methods just because of them. The hero's town almost always gets wrecked at some point, just to drive the point home to the reader that the bad guy is evil and scared of the hero.
taski 04-14-06, 05:45 AM	DarthMidget, you don't have to paint yourself into a corner by thinking no one knew of or cared about the village/island. You're free to change any facts the PCs don't yet know, so long as the change makes for a better story and fits with what the PCs do know. Who might have been hidding in the village? If a war criminal was hidding there, perhaps an undercover agent from, say, the Dark Lanterns, was investigating the whereabouts and current strength of this war criminal, right when the Eye killed them all. The Dark Lanterns would then be very interested in finding out where their agent went and why the village was destroyed. They could see the PCs as a useful tool against the Eyes of Aundair (particularly as witnesses of what could end up being an international incident). The Dark Lanterns could provide bail and protection for the PCs, in return for a few "favors" now and again. This could get even better if the war criminal turned out to be one of the PC's parents (maybe that changeling rogue.. so why he's so brutal?).
Sereno 04-14-06, 08:06 AM	I think you got confused here. We're still talking about these guys going to jail for their actions. If not going to jail is a concern for the players, then erring on the side of caution is prudent. No, they don't know the Law like DA's, but since you don't, and that law can put you in jail, being cautious is the only way to avoid it slamming down on you. If you don't know the Law and violate it, you're still going to be hanged for your crime. Not knowing the Law means you better be careful where the Death Penalty is common. I'm not confused at all. My point is that the PCs AREN'T "the law" ... they're merely out for vengeance against the killers of their village. Perhaps they don't care if they go to jail or the gallows, so long as they get the killers first. If they were agents of the law (or government), they would have to be sure (or at least have decent evidence) before they made any overt moves. But, the PCs are more akin to bounty hunters, who can do things that the police are not allowed to do -- enter without warrants, etc -- but, like bounty hunters, they can also be prosecuted for Breaking and Entering, or other crimes they commit, in apprehending a bad guy. Anti-hero and villain are very close in style, but the difference is that the anti-hero's intent is noble. I do not see any noble intent in what the PC's did here. It was not necessary and not reasonable to the situation. They went all Marv in a place they needed to be Dwight. That's not classic anti-hero: that's classic villain. One action, even an awful one, is not enough to cement the PCs into a particular path. They have every chance in the world to modify their approach. It should occur to them that they were overly brutal in a situation that didn't warrant it. They can "repent" -- realize what they did was wrong and chalk it up to "we got carried away in our thirst for revenge -- we need to be careful or we're going to hang before we ever catch the bad guys." Eberron is awash in intrigue at all levels of society. The PC's should never treat anything as "known", until they have rock solid proof. And even then, they should second guess themselves. There's never ANY rock solid evidence when it comes to intrigue; that's part of the whole problem. And, it's also why these particular PCs are in a lot of trouble. Perhaps, next time, they'll resort to less destructive methods of extracting information. The OP did point out that these players were basically n00bs to Eberron ... they might not have a good understanding of the level of intrigue going on ... or what that even means as far as adventuring goes. I don't draw that parallel. Lots of noble and good campaigns have started with such events, and the PC's don't always turn to evil methods just because of them. The hero's town almost always gets wrecked at some point, just to drive the point home to the reader that the bad guy is evil and scared of the hero. Of course, YMMV. I've always found that the "meaner" the DM is the "meaner" the players are. The DM is responsible for the tone of his/her campaign and the tone of each adventure.