Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heykidoverthere 08-30-06, 01:57 AM	How do the Martial Adepts fit into Eberron? How do the effects of the Devoted Spirit discipline work in the Mournlands? Where would the Nine Swords be located in Eberron? Thank you, and if there are any other good questions relating to Tome of Battle, please post them.
The White Sorcerer 08-30-06, 03:34 AM	How do the effects of the Devoted Spirit discipline work in the Mournlands? Unless they're Conjuration (Healing) effects, perfectly fine.
igotsmeakabob!! 08-30-06, 03:36 AM	They all fit quite easily. Martial Adepts fit anywhere Monks would, plus some more. Elite warriors of the crown comes to mind. Devoted Spirit works like everything else that isn't healing subschool based. Nine Swords could be wherever you want to stickem, maybe in the hands of Martial Adepts they fit with.
cancerousmango 08-30-06, 10:24 AM	Crusaders are obviously from thrane. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krumping) The other two can be from just about anywhere. (http://www.socal.com/absolutenm/articlefiles/1709-lamesh_tommy4.jpg)
Hellcow 08-30-06, 02:22 PM	FYI, The Tome of Battle is one of the books that will be covered in Eberron Expanded... so while it's not canon, you'll get to see my take on this a little down the line.
Joni-san 08-30-06, 02:25 PM	Cool, now I have one more reason to get that book :P
The White Sorcerer 08-30-06, 04:16 PM	Cool, now I have one more reason to get that book :P Vi parolas la veron, mia finna kamarado. As if it wasn't enough that Tome of Battle seems like a book made just for me, now I can easily adapt it to the setting made just for me.
Siran Dunmorgan 08-30-06, 05:02 PM	FYI, The Tome of Battle is one of the books that will be covered in Eberron Expanded... so while it's not canon, you'll get to see my take on this a little down the line.Hellcow, while it's true that the Eberron Expanded articles are not themselves canonical, the material in them will likely be taken as a starting point for what does become canon, perhaps in a manner similar to the oriental classes sidebars in Player's Guide to Eberron. That said—since you haven't written those articles yet, now is the time for us to come up with interesting ideas that will influence how you're thinking about the setting, and therefore influence the setting that the rest of us share, since—official or not, there is a tradition similar to hadith in play here. The obvious ideas—the inclusion of martial adepts among the already recognized martial traditions such as the Aereni, Deneith, Dhakaani, and Tairnadal—we can skip; you'll cover those. You'll probably also mention the traditions of Karrnathi masters of fence, with a note to the effect that this is different from the art of war as taught at Rekkenmark: the Academy teaches war, rather than individual prowess in battle. Some of the more interesting ideas—combining martial adepts with the kalashtar traditions—you're already likely to have considered; beginning a career as a soulknife or psychic warrior, and continuing as a martial adept would provide a classic backstory as well as a potent character. Some of the less well-known traditions, now... those could be interesting. I'm happy to toss some ideas into the ring: A tradition of shulassakar swordsages, for example, could go a long way toward explaining why Krezent has gone so long unmolested by the younger races. The idea that many of the knights of the Silver Flame are crusaders rather than paladins has a certain appeal, particularly since the class is free of the paladin's strict no-evil morality. In the matter of crusaders, a crusader tradition is quite viable within the Blood of Vol, or even within the Order of the Emerald Claw. And the character concept of an orc crusader or paladin/crusader of the Maruk Ghash'kaala works brilliantly. Shifters seem a good fit for martial adepts, particularly with respect to those traditions that call for natural weapons or unarmed strikes. The martial adept traditions may also be alive and well in Sarlona: being neither precisely magic nor psionics, they may slip through the boundaries established by the Inspired. It's possible that there are martial adepts among the Seren as well, but I'm less certain about this, particularly since we have not seen the effect that the upcoming publication of Dragon Magic will have on Seren culture. The Eternal Blade Prestige Class seems to have been written with Eberron in mind, though there is no explicit mention of the setting even in the Adaptation notes.And that's just from flipping through the book; more ideas are likely to come from deeper inspection. Discussion, comment, and dissent on these observations, are, as always, welcomed. —Siran Dunmorgan
Hellcow 08-30-06, 05:21 PM	That said—since you haven't written those articles yet... Actually, I'm afraid that's where you're mistaken. WotC does everything FAR in advance, and actually, that article is already submitted for WotC approval. :(. Needless to say, I'm curious to see if the ideas follow the same path, and I'm the first to admit that you may come up with better ideas than I did! It's likewise the case that I can't cover every possibility in an article; I tend to go over the desired word count as it is. So while I cover some ideas I like, I don't address every idea *I* can think of! The goal with Eberron Expanded is inspiration as opposed to absolute authority. In the case of Tome of Battle, this is particularly relevant because there are many different ways to use it. Do you say that it exists but is extremely obscure... that there is only a single master of each discipline, and that common people will have never seen a martial adept in action? That the traditions have not been incorporated into the military (after all, PC classes are supposed to be rare), but that people are generally familiar with them, and that you could simply go looking for a martial school in Sharn? Or that the martial adepts are truly commonplace, that martial adepts can be found in the armies of the Five Nations and even in the city watch? Each of these will give a campaign a very different flavor, and each lends itself towards a different history for the disciplines. (As a side note, I think an order of Shulassakar swordsages or crusaders is a great idea. Since it's already done, you won't see it in the article... but I'll certainly use it in my game!)
Nived 08-30-06, 05:28 PM	I don't think Crusaders have to be married to the Silver Flame. Just like Paladins, they can be of the Host, or other religions. Indeed with the alignment restrictions being significantly different than a Paladin, there could be Crusaders of the Dragon Blow. Particularly with their 'divinely guided' i.e. random combat maneuver style imagine for a second, a 'madness' driven Chaotic Crusader devoted to the Daeklyr or some such would be quite interesting. Like any other class Crusaders can be from anywhere, not just Thrane. Disciplines could certainly be regional, but I see no reason to limit the classes as such.
Lafarallin 08-30-06, 05:39 PM	I don't think Crusaders have to be married to the Silver Flame. Just like Paladins, they can be of the Host, or other religions. Oh but they fit so well!! The Silver Flame is just so perfect for religious zealots! I really love Thrane and the Silver Flame as protagonists. Halt infidel!! You are a blasphemer!!
eehamburg 08-30-06, 05:47 PM	Thing to remember is that roleplaying is whatever you want it to be. So if you want a paladin or crusader of the Silver Flame then so be it. If you want it of the Host then so be it. to go even further, if you want it of the Dark Six, then so be it. This logic can be applied to religious organization ... even the Dreaming Dark. Remember that alignments are more fuzzy and grey so you can have a Riedran who is devotely worshipping the Inspired and Dreaming Dark and becomes a crusader to their cause. Afterall ... Anything is possible.
Nived 08-30-06, 06:28 PM	Sorry just every thread I've seen thus far about ToB & Eberron had someone talking about how Crusaders belong in the Silver Flame. I agree. Crusaders are a good fit for knights of the Silver Flame, but they need not be the only, nor the origininators of the class.
Siran Dunmorgan 08-30-06, 07:17 PM	I don't think Crusaders have to be married to the Silver Flame. Just like Paladins, they can be of the Host, or other religions. Indeed with the alignment restrictions being significantly different than a Paladin, there could be Crusaders of the Dragon Blow. Particularly with their 'divinely guided' i.e. random combat maneuver style imagine for a second, a 'madness' driven Chaotic Crusader devoted to the Daeklyr or some such would be quite interesting. Like any other class Crusaders can be from anywhere, not just Thrane. Disciplines could certainly be regional, but I see no reason to limit the classes as such.You're right! The Church of the Silver Flame is used here for illustrative purposes. But indeed, Crusaders of virtually every religious tradition on Eberron could be used as champions of the religion in place of the ubiquitous paladin. For instance, it could be vastly amusing to pit the characters against a crusader-led force of Medusas out of Cazhaak Draal, servants of the Shadow. And I can easily see something like a warblade tradition developing among the sahuagin of Shargon's Teeth. Their holy 'men' might also take levels in Crusader, their devotion to the Devourer unswerving. Another amusing option is to conceive of—somewhere in the darkness of Khyber below Sarlona, born of the vast deposits of deep crystal that underlie that continent—is the notion of a legion of maenad devotees of the Fury, combining the most fearsome traits of the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. Against them, even the armies of the daelkyr fear to stand. So no, Crusaders aren't just for the Church of the Silver Flame. But they are a good alternative when you don't want the character dealing with the Code of Conduct and alignment restrictions of the paladin class. —Siran Dunmorgan
ryanroyce 08-30-06, 08:29 PM	I still like the idea of gnomes being the masters of the Setting Sun school. :cool:
Decree Of Boredom 08-30-06, 09:38 PM	FYI, The Tome of Battle is one of the books that will be covered in Eberron Expanded... so while it's not canon, you'll get to see my take on this a little down the line. Can this please, please be the first of the new EE's? Tome of Battle is 9 gallons of awesome in a three gallon bag.
aelryinth 08-30-06, 11:35 PM	Remember that if you read over the text of Crusaders, the Crusader does NOT get along well with established churches. Because the root of their power is martial in nature, even be it divinely inspired, and the orders of Crusaders share a bond even if rivals, the theme of 9 Swords is that only the order of Wee Jas, which submitted utterly to the Church of that Goddess, basically remains intact...the rest were hunted down as heretics or infidels and are widely scattered. In short, a Crusader is a rare item, and knightly orders of them almost unseen. Paladins are by extension divine servants and work with the Church...Crusaders have no such reliance. ===== It's fairly well established in the books that Diamond Mind is associated with elves....stone dragon with dwarves...Tiger Claw with Orcs...Iron Heart with Hobgoblins. I expect the Shadow Style will go with gnomes...I haven't actually seen a desert culture in Eberron except for the barbarians around the Demon Wastes, and certainly that didn't have the arabic theme of the Sun style. I expect the Karrns might get the White Raven style as an example of the power of their Rekkenmark officers. Note that Martial Adepts tend towards the very individualistic side of things...out for their own glory and aggrandizement, not content to be part of the machine. Thus crusaders don't follow the church...they go do what THEY think is best. Swordsages are all about finding the next better combat trick, and trivial things like the Last War just aren't important. Warblades see war as a way to gain glory...meaning they'd have to be in charge, and taking orders would just chafe on them unless great rewards and glory were to follow. Hmm. That does sound like Karrnathi Warlords, now that I think about it. In any event, it has to be remembered that martial glory is as important to these characters as staying in the favor of your god is to a priest, and gaining new spells is to a wizard. Things that interfere with that are simply not going to be abided by. Thus, there is a massive independent streak in all the martial adepts classes and traditions. personally, i think just about every non-humanoid Power that exists would have dearly liked to see these classes and the power they represent fail. Some of those manuvers are extremely powerful, and just like they'd like to crush archmagi and bury knowledge of high level spells, they'd like to see the Ninefold Path quietly done away with...except for their own use, of course... ==Aelryinth
ArcTan 08-31-06, 01:17 AM	Remember that if you read over the text of Crusaders, the Crusader does NOT get along well with established churches. Because the root of their power is martial in nature, even be it divinely inspired, and the orders of Crusaders share a bond even if rivals, the theme of 9 Swords is that only the order of Wee Jas, which submitted utterly to the Church of that Goddess, basically remains intact...the rest were hunted down as heretics or infidels and are widely scattered. In short, a Crusader is a rare item, and knightly orders of them almost unseen. Paladins are by extension divine servants and work with the Church...Crusaders have no such reliance. In other words, ordinary religious orders have a hard time maintaining Crusader orders. Crusaders can only flourish in an environment where church and state are combined and religion is *so* ubiquitous and *such* a basic defining feature of people's culture that religious authority has no reason to fear the Crusaders' individuality nor governmental authority the Crusaders' zeal. Few places in Eberron are actually like this. Definitely not most of the Five Nations. Thrane is *becoming* like this, but not there yet -- hence there may be a young order of Crusaders there, but distrusted and small. True fanatics of the Emerald Claw might become Crusaders, but I think the cult is still too scattered and small for this to be viable -- the mainstream Blood of Vol, on the other hand, is exactly the wrong kind of religion to produce Crusaders -- people in Karrnath with a Crusader-ish bent are far more likely to join the ordinary military and become Fighters (or maybe Warblades). It's fairly well established in the books that Diamond Mind is associated with elves....stone dragon with dwarves...Tiger Claw with Orcs...Iron Heart with Hobgoblins. I expect the Shadow Style will go with gnomes...I haven't actually seen a desert culture in Eberron except for the barbarians around the Demon Wastes, and certainly that didn't have the arabic theme of the Sun style. The Talenta halflings live on the steppe, which is similar to the desert in many ways -- it adjoins the Blade Desert, which is the only major desert on Khorvaire. And much about Talenta culture could fit what I've seen of the Sun style. Shadow style could easily be something taught to a restrictive order within the Houses of Shadow. In fact, it almost begs to be treated this way, along with similar sects in the Umbragen, perhaps. I expect the Karrns might get the White Raven style as an example of the power of their Rekkenmark officers. Note that Martial Adepts tend towards the very individualistic side of things...out for their own glory and aggrandizement, not content to be part of the machine. Thus crusaders don't follow the church...they go do what THEY think is best. Swordsages are all about finding the next better combat trick, and trivial things like the Last War just aren't important. Warblades see war as a way to gain glory...meaning they'd have to be in charge, and taking orders would just chafe on them unless great rewards and glory were to follow. Hmm. That does sound like Karrnathi Warlords, now that I think about it. But the regimented style of the Karrnathi military, as I see it, makes this seem less likely to me. Perhaps if it's very explicitly only available to the elite of the Karrnathi nobility and discouraged among the rank and file Karrns. Still, having read the Warblade description, I can't help but think the very individualistic and very personal-glory-oriented view of the Warblade is a more Aundairian or Brelish attitude than Karrnathi, since Karrns are supposed to be about self-sacrifice and patriotism. In any event, it has to be remembered that martial glory is as important to these characters as staying in the favor of your god is to a priest, and gaining new spells is to a wizard. Things that interfere with that are simply not going to be abided by. Thus, there is a massive independent streak in all the martial adepts classes and traditions. personally, i think just about every non-humanoid Power that exists would have dearly liked to see these classes and the power they represent fail. Some of those manuvers are extremely powerful, and just like they'd like to crush archmagi and bury knowledge of high level spells, they'd like to see the Ninefold Path quietly done away with...except for their own use, of course... ==Aelryinth Well, sure. Threats are threats. But no one has enough power to try to ban or destroy whole schools of thought or disciplines, on Khorvaire, anyway. The question of what it's like in Riedra is an interesting one, and the individualistic nature of the Ninefold Path makes me think that it's something the Riedrans have done away with altogether, much like arcane magic, rather than attempting to harness it. Some traditions might work best as things only preserved in the ancient temples of Adar, including the very esoteric stuff like the Jade Phoenix Mage (see a debate going on in another thread).
Nived 08-31-06, 10:20 AM	But the regimented style of the Karrnathi military, as I see it, makes this seem less likely to me. Perhaps if it's very explicitly only available to the elite of the Karrnathi nobility and discouraged among the rank and file Karrns. Still, having read the Warblade description, I can't help but think the very individualistic and very personal-glory-oriented view of the Warblade is a more Aundairian or Brelish attitude than Karrnathi, since Karrns are supposed to be about self-sacrifice and patriotism. I agree with you to a point. One of the reasons people keep saying Rekkenmark when they bring up the White Raven style is because that would keep it OUT of the hands fo the rank and file. Rekkenmark Academy is an elite officer's training facility, the Khorvaire equivalent of West Point. The White Raven style is the style of a commander, not a rank and file soldier. Even so it would be a specialized form of training either not widely offered to all those that go through the academy. It could easily be the equivalent of certain real life military programs were say 50 apply each year and only say 6 make it through the program (for various reasons). Also I think a War Blade can be about self sacrifice and patriotism... just in a very flashy way that lets EVERYONE know he's willing to sacrifice for his country.
Kreistor1 08-31-06, 12:55 PM	One of the reasons people keep saying Rekkenmark when they bring up the White Raven style is because that would keep it OUT of the hands fo the rank and file. Now, this I seriously wonder about. It has become common thinking that nobility supressed martial skill, but this is not true. Notably, in Britain, the elite martial prowess of the Archer was enforced by Law. Also note the British Greencoats of the War fo 1812 were also an elite and highly specialized unit. If the Rekkenmark produces the best military minds of their nation, they are not going to hamstring their troops by restricting access to useful knowledge. Smart military minds realized that Officers were there to lead, not fight, so the best fighters should be the troops and the best leaders the Officers. Now, what is useful to a front line soldier may not be the Martial Styles presented in the Tome of Battle. That is up to the individual DM's to decide. So there may be reasons for front line Karrnathi to know other things. I just do not see the consequences of such a prejudicial opinion on the training of the troops to survive the first ten years of the Last War.
Nived 08-31-06, 01:03 PM	Its a matter of practicality. Using modern day annalogies. Every soldier is taught how to shoot. Not every soldier is trained to be a scout sniper, trained to sit camoflaged for 5 days not moving to take one shot at the range of a mile. There is basic training, (Warriors), Elite training (Fighter), and Specialized Elite training (Warblade, Paladin, Marshal, Ranger, Scout, etc). We're talking what separates basic training, from the Army Rangers, the Navy SEALS, or the British SAS, etc.
Kreistor1 08-31-06, 02:22 PM	Right, and the transition to giving that training to a "commoner" happened a very long time ago. Some (like myself) consider the technology and political systems of Eberron to be consistent with 1800's era, rather than 1400's, consequently making the transition to a more modern mindset concerning any matters (including militry) appropriate. Your suggestion is that only nobility would be given specialized training. This has not been true since at least the year 1800, and I might be able to find even earlier examples if I bothered. At the very least, Napoleon did the same with his Skirmishers, so that training wasn't even limited to the British mindset.
Nived 08-31-06, 02:33 PM	Again I was generalizing. When I was refering to nobility I was directly refering to the passage (either in the EBCS, or Five Nations) that before the Last War it was common that aristocratic 'noble' households would send at least one of their kids to Rekkenmark Academy. I'm merely suggesting that SOME of those sons and daughters could have come away Warblades with certain disciplines and after the Last War started continued to teach those disciplines within their families and yes to others. However Rekkenmark was still probably the 'seat' of The White Raven Discipline... or at least that's what came to mind for me, and at least a few others reading other 'ToB in Eberron' threads.
Kreistor1 08-31-06, 02:49 PM	Something like a West Point only teaches the rudimentary basics of self-defense. It's not in the State's interest to spend a lot of time teaching officers to be expert combatants. Historically, expert swordsmanship was the purview of specialized and independent schools, much like kung fu dojos are now, not military facilities. The Rekkenmark wouldn't teach fencing: but a couple places might teach that, if your family could afford the extra expense and the college gave you the free time. The Rekkenmark teaches how to array your troops, how to attack a fort, how to inspire a broken unit. The State has hundreds of soldiers for each officer. It can't afford to waste that limited resource on fighting. So, no, I don't think the Rekkenmark would teach any combat style. There may be facilities like Fort Benning that teach how to fight better or in specialized ways, but that training goes to soldiers that have proven themselves on the field, not officers-in-training without proof of military success.
aelryinth 08-31-06, 08:22 PM	New Officers historically had far more weapons training then their soldiers. Part of being in a formal training atmosphere is having constant access to the best of teachers and that includes martial instructors. While the Advanced Strategic Studies area of West Point, catering to the evolution from COlonel to General (or whatever the name of the place is), specifically addresses this role, the fact is an officer coming out of West Point has more combat training then a raw recruit coming out of basic. So yes, the Rekkenmark will indeed teach fencing, and probably some of the best fencing in the whole country, considering the martial pride the Karrns have. There may well be individual instructors who have greater skills who can be hired for princely sums...but the ones in the Rekkenmark aren't going to be slouches. A Rekkenmark White Hand Warblade would be almost the perfect Karrn officer...good at fighting, focused on group efforts, decent skill points and the correct skills, and more to the point, driven by glory to pursue war and be in the limelight. Important Karrns, and the Karrn people, are always itchy and ready for war, war, war...let's go fight! That impetus is built into the flavor text of the Warblade...be it disguised as patriotism or hidden personal ambition, it is there. A Brel Warblade would be more about individual prowess, i.e. an Iron Heart/Diamond Mind sort of Warblade, I am the Champion, Follow ME! sort of person. A White Raven explicitly needs a troop following him to maximize his abilities...a Brel swings his battles on his personal prowess and inspiration more then the ability to effectively command troops. But, that's all a viewpoint and flavor issue. Also, don't treat Warblades as being elitist and noble only...they are a core class and unlike Knights, don't have the stigma of noble reputation attached to them. ==Aelryinth
ArcTan 09-01-06, 01:08 PM	You mean a *base* class. (A base class as opposed to a PrC, I assume, meaning that they're less special than Ghost-Faced Killers or Citadel Elites or Jade Phoenix Mages.) They are not a *core* class. Not yet, anyway. We'll see about 4th Edition.
igotsmeakabob!! 09-01-06, 06:53 PM	Oh man... I know thats its already written but I hope you did the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC as well.. if not, then I just hope that the ToB article is the first one released. When are they supposed to be released anyway?
taski 09-02-06, 07:20 PM	I only had a brief look at the Tome of Battle, but I liked what I saw. Anyway, I thought the Desert Wind went very well with the Vaelnar, what with them being in the Blade Desert and in love with scimitars. Shadow Hand goes with Phiarlan/Thurrani (more in Thurrani), and the Trust. Okay, those were the only ones I really looked at.. I want the book, but I have limited funds, and I want Faiths of Eberron more. Material for Dragon Below cultists and beasties is more useful for my game (plus, neither of the PCs are martial! :crazy:).
mhacdebhandia 09-03-06, 08:46 PM	It strikes me that the esoteric knowledge of the swordsage and the Desert Wind style are both a good fit for the magical aptitude and established fighting style of the elves in Valenar.
heykidoverthere 09-04-06, 07:02 PM	Which Martial Adept would be more prevelent through Darguun, Crusaders fighting to bring back Goblinoid supremacy or Warblades fighting to prove that individually gobinoids are superior or possibly swordsage, though I see them least likely in Darguun.
The White Sorcerer 09-05-06, 05:04 AM	Which Martial Adept would be more prevelent through Darguun, Crusaders fighting to bring back Goblinoid supremacy or Warblades fighting to prove that individually gobinoids are superior or possibly swordsage, though I see them least likely in Darguun. I'd say warblades. Apart from their own personal glory, they might be fighting to bring glory to their clan or something.
Nived 09-05-06, 05:05 PM	Besides, Goblinoids in Eberron are apt to dislike the divine, they don't produce Paladins or Clerics, and thusly wouldn't be likely to produce a Crusader.
aelryinth 09-05-06, 06:22 PM	agreed, Warblades would be most common. If you use them as the source of the Iron Heart school, they'd focus on that. I'd probably add the Spiked chain to the list of Iron Heart weapons if you are going to do so in Eberron, however, as it is THE weapon of the race there. ==Aelryinth
Nived 09-06-06, 10:18 AM	I disagree. While Goblins developed the Spiked Chain as a weapon (and the Dire Flail... I have my own personal theory about the Daelkyr War and the development of the Dire Flail), their primary weapon, and the weapon 'of leadership' as shown us by Geth's Sword in the Dragon Below series and the Skai Shaarat in the player's guide shows a marital tradition with swords. Remember you can still use the manuvers with any weapon, not just the style's perfered weapons. Thusly an Iron Heart Warblade COULD use the Spiked Chain, Just wouldn't be able to use it with some feats. I'd say the Iron Heart style is either so old it predates the perifilation of the spiked chain in Dhakaan culture, or it was a competeing fighting style. Or you could houserule it... but the spiked chain already has too many nice features if you ask me.
heykidoverthere 09-07-06, 03:32 AM	Agreed, spiked chains are good enough already. I really like the idea of competing styles. Also it does make the most sense for Warblades, though for the record Crusaders do not have to be religous zealots, they could just as easily believe that their power comes from their firm belief that Goblins were and shall be again, the rulers of Khorvaire.
Bluebrush 09-07-06, 07:11 AM	Also, the spiked chain is primarily a tactical weapon, rather than a powerful damage dealing weapon. What you'd likely see is a Dhakanni warblade accompanied by a spiked chain wielder. The chainmaster harasses, trips and protects, while the warblade does most of the actual damage-dealing.
aelryinth 09-07-06, 07:20 PM	If you are using it as a Hobgoblin-derived source Path, it would be extremely foolish of the Hobgoblins NOT to include the weapon that is considered the totem weapon of the race as among the favored weapons of the style. The spiked chain takes great skill to wield...and skill is the essence of the iron Heart. Also, the chain plays hugely to the strengths of the style...this is a weapon with reach that can be used long, short, has a great bonus to trips and disarms...for a truly skillful warrior, it's the best weapon out there. And goblins get it as a racial weapon. Do I think the chain is too good? Well, yeah. But from a flavor standpoint, if the Iron Heart is born from ancient Dhakaani traditions, not integrating it around the mythos of the culture doesn't make much sense. ==+Aelryinth
Bluebrush 09-07-06, 09:49 PM	And goblins get it as a racial weapon.Wait, was this printed in a book somewhere? I'm fairly sure I would have noticed that.
ArcTan 09-07-06, 10:50 PM	If you are using it as a Hobgoblin-derived source Path, it would be extremely foolish of the Hobgoblins NOT to include the weapon that is considered the totem weapon of the race as among the favored weapons of the style. The spiked chain takes great skill to wield...and skill is the essence of the iron Heart. Also, the chain plays hugely to the strengths of the style...this is a weapon with reach that can be used long, short, has a great bonus to trips and disarms...for a truly skillful warrior, it's the best weapon out there. And goblins get it as a racial weapon. Do I think the chain is too good? Well, yeah. But from a flavor standpoint, if the Iron Heart is born from ancient Dhakaani traditions, not integrating it around the mythos of the culture doesn't make much sense. ==+Aelryinth It could be that Iron Heart disciplines don't actually work with the spiked chain, given that it's not a rigid weapon. (Don't a lot of them deal with using the sword to block and such?) Saying it would be "foolish" of them not to develop a Nine Swords tradition around the Spiked Chain is like saying it's "foolish" of Wizards to have never developed a level 1 spell that kills an opponent instantly. It's not like they have absolute control over what's possible in Eberron and what isn't. And, again, Kech Shaarat means "Bearers of the Blade", not "Bearers of the Chain". The spiked chain is *a* Dhakaani racial weapon but not the only one, and the ultimate symbol of martial authority in their culture is, in fact, a sword. Also, they don't get the spiked chain automatically as a racial weapon. They have to take a feat to get it. (Races of Eberron.)
davethebrave371 09-08-06, 03:08 PM	That's it, I'm sold. I'm buying this book. This thread has me convinced that I need to make a particular Valenar NPC I have in mind as a Desert Wind focused swordsage.
Prince Indirian 09-08-06, 04:11 PM	Actually I would have given many of the Nine styles to the Dhakanni. What drew me to the setting was the goblins, yet they have got very little love at all. Even the Aereni have a PrC made for them, the Gobs have nothing. So as a remedy I would pretty much give the Dhakkani quite a few of the paths. Also I find a Sharat-kesh Assassin/monk with the Shadow Hand style to be awesome. And appropriate...they are martial enough to actually create something like IMO Devoted Mind and Crusader might become an issue, but then again their devotion might be to wards their empire or some such.
aelryinth 09-09-06, 02:14 AM	The SPiked Chain is considered a martial weapon for all Dhakaani clans. Goblins don't have to take a feat..they need to have a level in a class which grants martial weapon proficency, exactly the same as Mror get with the War Axe and Urgosh, Valenar with Double Scimitar, etc. The sword is a totemic and older weapon, but the weapon that is identified with the hobgoblins as THEIR weapon, as the Dwarven war axe is with the Mror and the Double Axe with the Orcs, is the Spiked Chain...and the most lauded weapon masters among the hobgobs are the chainmasters, not the swordmasters. As Keith put it, if you learn the spiked chain, you are learning a gobling fighting style. So, if you are going to make Iron Heart come from the Dhakaan, that's also a goblin fighting style...seems very much like one would be an extension of the other. Of course, this doesn't mean that other races won't need an Exotic weapon prof to learn the chain... ===Aelryinth
Nived 09-09-06, 03:38 AM	The SPiked Chain is considered a martial weapon for all Dhakaani clans. Goblins don't have to take a feat..they need to have a level in a class which grants martial weapon proficency, exactly the same as Mror get with the War Axe and Urgosh, Valenar with Double Scimitar, etc. I call shenanigans! That's a houserule buddy. No where in the Eberron Campaign Setting, Races of Eberron, the Player's Guide to Eberron, or the goblin themed Dragonshards does it give that ability. Even the Darguun Maulers feat (notice the fact that its named after the modern country), has the prerequisit of being proficient with the light and heavy flail to give proficiency with the spiked chain and (gods help up) the dire flail. Now granted, its a logical and fair houserule. One that makes a lot of sense, one I'd be apt to adopt myself, one that I'd love to be a player under. Yet we have to acknowledge that for the moment its a houserule. You can prove me wrong by giving me a page number. THAT ALL BEING SAID. I respect your opinion, I do, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. For me I see the Iron Heart discipline being one of the oldest of the 'blade magic arts', predating the proliferation of the spiked chain in Dhakaan culture. Using the weapons listed in ToB. This doesn't stop a goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear, or anyone else for that matter, using the spiked chain with Iron Heart manuevers... all it means is you can't use the spiked chain for Iron Heart feats, which are designed with those specific weapons in mind. Now I could see spiked chain fighters amongst the Dhakaan to see adherants to the Iron Heart discipline that use the 'prefered' weapons to be old fashioned (which is saying something in a culture centered around historical greatness). In my head I could see a true rivalry between two Dhakaan Hobgoblins (perhaps from different clans... remember the Dhakaan are not united), one a traditional Warblade focused on the iron heart with the feats and prefered weapons... vs a tricked out 'Darguun Mauler' Fighter build with every bit of Spiked Chain cheese you can imagine and Exotic Weapon Master, throw in Martial Study and its even worse. Actually that'd be a heck of a fight... I'd give the advantage to the fighter (now that's a rare thing to say) with the reach. But hey I don't have ToB in front of me. Now I noticed you aren't calling for the flails (light, heavy, and dire) to be put on the Iron Heart list. Which is one of the reasons I questioned the 'flavor' reasons for putting the spiked chain on... as all the flails are just as 'traditional' goblin weapons (Even though I'm convinced the dire flail was invented durring the Daelkyr war by a goblin driven insane from fighting the minions of Xoriat, but that's beside the point). Regardless, this is just my view, this is just how I would run it in my game. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, I respect the fact you disagree with me. Choosing to tie the iron heart discipline to the chained weapons that the goblins seem to favor is a cool, valid and logical choice. It is. I just think the spiked chain is powerful enough as it is.
Hellcow 09-09-06, 04:12 AM	And, again, Kech Shaarat means "Bearers of the Blade", not "Bearers of the Chain". True, but the Kech Shaarat are a specific Dhakaani clan... and in fact, their devotion to the sword is noteworthy enough for them to bother making it the name of their clan (if you think about it, "Bladebearers" is an odd name for a clan if hobgoblin soldiers of all clans favor the sword). And while Darguun Mauler uses "Darguun" instead of "Dhakaan", it is the use of chain weapons by the heroes of the ancient empire that makes them popular among modern hobgoblin warriors. Both Dhakaani and Ghaal'dar employ swords in addition to chain weapons, just as human troops may use a wide range of weapons. But in this case, Aelryinth has anticipated my action. It's not quite as simple as saying "Iron Heart is the goblin discipline", as you'll see when the article comes out. But yes, in the Eberron Expanded article, I say that the weapons associated with the Dhakaani Iron Heart tradition are the bastard sword, longsword, dire flail, and spiked chain... replacing the axe and hammer with the chains. Of course, it's up to you as a DM as to whether to use this in your campaign, just as it's up to you to decide whether to allow the Tome of Battle or, for that matter, the spiked chain in your game. If you hate it, just pull the :censored: thing out!
ArcTan 09-09-06, 02:03 PM	The SPiked Chain is considered a martial weapon for all Dhakaani clans. Goblins don't have to take a feat..they need to have a level in a class which grants martial weapon proficency, exactly the same as Mror get with the War Axe and Urgosh, Valenar with Double Scimitar, etc. ...If that were true, Darguun Mauler wouldn't need to be a feat. I'm looking at the Heirs of Dhakaan article and Strike Force: Dhakaan and don't see any such automatic martial proficiency for spiked chains. Spiked chains are powerful enough that giving this to Dhakaani hobgoblins for free would give them a lot of power, even with their existing +1 LA. If Keith likes the idea of altering Iron Heart to use spiked chains, far be it for me to protest. But I'm one of the ones who thinks spiked chains already verge on broken in the first place.
Hellcow 09-09-06, 03:45 PM	...If that were true, Darguun Mauler wouldn't need to be a feat. To the best of my knowledge, the dire flail and spiked chain are not normally martial weapons for goblinoids unless they take the Darguun Mauler feat. However, with that said, it's worth pointing out that "Darguun Mauler wouldn't need to be a feat" isn't entirely accurate. Many of the similar feats do in fact overlap with national proficiencies. According to the ECS, Talenta halflings treat the sharrash, tangat, and Talenta boomerang as martial weapons; the Valenar elves treat the double scimitar as a martial weapon. Yet Bladebearer of the Valenar and Talenta Warrior restate these benefits. Among other things, this helps if the feat is transported to another setting, and also ensures that a player who missed this fact in the ECS sees it here. But given that Bladebearer and Talenta Warrior restate benefits that are in fact already possessed by natives of the region, I can see why people would assume that the proficiency aspect of Darguun Mauler was also supposed to be the norm for natives of the region (though as far as I know, in this case it is not). The proficiency aspects are not the only benefits of these feats. Each adds one minor combat bonus under specific circumstances, to overlap weapon-specific feats, and allows you to add an action point roll to both attack and damage. IMO, chain weapons (such as the flail) are common among the Dhakaani. But the spiked chain is still a weapon requiring skill (even if you can go with Darguun Mauler instead of EWP), which is why chainmasters are respected. Same way that you can see swords all over an army, but the guy using the bastard sword one-handed is still pretty cool. If Keith likes the idea of altering Iron Heart to use spiked chains, far be it for me to protest. But I'm one of the ones who thinks spiked chains already verge on broken in the first place. You're well with in your rights to protest, and to choose not to use the article; Eberron Expanded is intended to provide options, nothing more. More importantly, you're well within your rights to remove spiked chains from your game, if that's what you want to do.
heykidoverthere 09-11-06, 12:43 PM	Keith, you said that there is already an article to be published about this topic, is there at all a possibility for you to take all of our opinions into account and make another article incorperating our ideas. Just a suggestion.
eehamburg 09-11-06, 12:44 PM	and when will we see this Eberron Expanded article?
davethebrave371 09-12-06, 12:35 AM	Keith, you said that there is already an article to be published about this topic, is there at all a possibility for you to take all of our opinions into account and make another article incorperating our ideas. Just a suggestion. I'd much rather see more EbExp articles for two different books than one book done a second time. I can do my own corrections for my game if needed (and so far it hasn't been needed for any DS or EbExp to apply to my game 100%).
Hellcow 09-12-06, 01:51 PM	Keith, you said that there is already an article to be published about this topic, is there at all a possibility for you to take all of our opinions into account and make another article incorperating our ideas. Not really. There's a number of factors here: 1. To the best of my knowledge, you're only going to get one Eberron Expanded article per month... and there's a lot of books I'd like to cover. So like DavetheBrave says, spending two articles on the same book means something else DOESN'T get covered. 2. Some of my ideas already are the same as yours. Where they aren't, well, that's the POINT of both the boards and EE - to come up with different ideas. Eberron Expanded tells you *my* thoughts on the matter. It's not supposed to be an official conversion; it's a number of possibilities. Taking the Tome of Battle in particular, it actually offers some suggestions that are mutually exclusive, given that it makes a difference whether you want martial adepts to be common, uncommon, or extremely rare in the world. If these articles came out weekly, it might be different. But given that it may be weeks or even months until the article comes out, I don't think you'll see a second one. And again, given that Eberron Epanded is simply suggestions as to how to incorporate a book into the setting, I don't see much point to doing a thread summary article... after all, people who read the articles (and thus the website) already have access to this thread, and have access to it right now. In many ways, the boards are more useful than Eberron Expanded because you get the opinions of dozens or hundreds of people. Eberron Expanded tells you what *I'd* do with a book. Sometimes it will be the same as what people have come up with on the threads. Personally, I hope it will offer something different, simply because again, you have the threads right now - if I just repeat what you've already come up with, you've gained nothing from the article.
GimliGloinson 09-12-06, 03:39 PM	Not really. There's a number of factors here: In many ways, the boards are more useful than Eberron Expanded because you get the opinions of dozens or hundreds of people. Eberron Expanded tells you what *I'd* do with a book. Sometimes it will be the same as what people have come up with on the threads. Personally, I hope it will offer something different, simply because again, you have the threads right now - if I just repeat what you've already come up with, you've gained nothing from the article. Oh, Mighty Infernal Bovine! I think what some are asking, without saying is that your Eberron Expanded articles will count as canon, or near-canon for many DMs around the world. It's much easier for a player to say, "Well, Keith suggested <insert idea> in Eberron Expanded." rather than "I found this on the Boards." PS Thanks again for signing my ECS way back when.
davethebrave371 09-13-06, 09:43 AM	Yeah, personally, I'd rather have the talents of The Fireballed Mages, Siran Dunmorgans, Save-vs-DMs, ArcTans, Edymnions, Euangelions, Aelryinths, Dreaming Ducks, Charles Phippses and The White Sorcerers of the world at my fingertips interactively than one article that one guy writes (even if that one article rocks and that one guy has more "authority" than the others, officially). I've seen some ideas on this board that have blown me away in ways published sourcebooks for Eberron have yet to do. This board is a creative force, and it can churn out some amazing stuff when some of the more creative people put their heads together (and even when some of the less creative put their heads together).
Hellcow 09-13-06, 02:23 PM	Yeah, personally, I'd rather have the talents of The Fireballed Mages, Siran Dunmorgans, Save-vs-DMs, ArcTans, Edymnions, Euangelions, Aelryinths, Dreaming Ducks, Charles Phippses and The White Sorcerers of the world at my fingertips interactively than one article that one guy writes (even if that one article rocks and that one guy has more "authority" than the others, officially). Absolutely... which is why you have the boards. I couldn't write an article that incorporated all of those ideas if I wanted to. My articles - and even the sourcebooks - are not a substitute for the resource you have here, and you should take advantage of it. And I'm disappointed that *I* didn't make your list, Dave - after all, *I* post on the boards too! ;)
davethebrave371 09-13-06, 10:59 PM	I'm disappointed that *I* didn't make your list, Dave - after all, *I* post on the boards too! ;) Six take your whining, Keithberbaker, Progenitor of Progenitors. I tangentially mentioned you as well as bought all your books (even non-Eberron ones). My money is more than praise enough in a market system. Just ask a Kundarak, or a vassal of Kol Korran. But if you insist, you're the prettiest one, and I didn't want to make the other girls jealous. :rolleyes:
Prince Indirian 09-14-06, 12:59 PM	LOL, dave So when can we espect this Eberron exapanded ?
The White Sorcerer 09-14-06, 01:02 PM	vassal of Kol Korran. Disciple, dave, Disciple. Worshipers of the entire Host are called Vassals.
The White Sorcerer 09-14-06, 01:03 PM	So when can we espect this Eberron exapanded ? When WotC feels like putting it up on their website. When that is, I don't know.
davethebrave371 09-15-06, 12:03 AM	Disciple, dave, Disciple. Worshipers of the entire Host are called Vassals. ...I had just started reading it, and I saw "disciple" in the Dark Six section. Soo...uhh...shhhhh.