Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-07-07, 09:17 PM	In our world latin has very specific resonances, of antiquity, sholarship and legal propriety, but is there a languge that would have these same resonances in Ebberon?
Splendide 03-07-07, 09:22 PM	Yeah, its boring, but Common, the language endorsed by the race of clerks with the Mark of Scribing. Elven would be most likely for this if you insist Common isn't appropriate. The origins of the half-elves reportedly begin with the unions of human and elven nobility, so as a second language to be a bit of a high-class showoff in, it'd be number one.
Darth Syntax 03-07-07, 09:32 PM	May I suggest Old Galifaran, the now extinct form of the Galifaran language spoken at the time of the formation of the Kingdom? Such a language would have no native speakers, and would not be intelligible (beyond a word here and there, and some stock phrases) to most of the current population. The other possibility would be a somewhat archaic form of Korranberg Zil, especially with regards to legal proceedings.
Lancer2010 03-07-07, 10:01 PM	In the Q'Barra Blindenstone Expeditionary Dispatch, they make reference to a language called "Old Common". That help?
PlaDeDump 03-08-07, 03:05 AM	I've always thought of Draconic as being the "Latin" of the setting. I don't have a good logical reason for thinking this though. It's just that I think of Draconic as being a very old language that is used primarily by scholars (and Dragons). This is sort of standing Latin has in today's world.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 03:17 AM	I wouldn't make Draconic the "Latin" of Eberron. Considering that the dragons are generally a rather insular lot, it dosen't make sense that their language would be widely known. Even then, the 'draconic' that your average Khorvaran scholar might know is probably some vastly simplified creole. The fact that the draconic mind is probably quite different from the humanoid mind, it might not even be practical for humanoids to use such a language, as it would be inherently 'alien'.
Shady314 03-08-07, 04:47 AM	Hmm that's a tough question. There are so many dead/ancient languages in Eberron. What would highly educated and literate nobles speak in Eberron the common masses would probably not? I could see Draconic. It is the default language of magic and come on Dragons! what noble wouldn't lord that over a peasant. I can speak the language of the great wyrms. What do you know? A few elvish curse words? I can't see elven as a parallel since there's just too many that could speak it. Perhaps the language of the Giants of Xendrik not the current bastard version those stunted leftover giants speak. But I think that one's probably too dead and would take decipher script. Maybe Celestial? The language of Angels would probably be the ultimate romance language. Ok I have to cast my vote in with Draconic. It's obscure but not dead. And is still the default language of spellcasters (always of the high int ;)) so is probably a common bonus language of any noble or house scion.
okaynowa 03-08-07, 08:57 AM	Said Darth Syntax (my linguistics hero):May I suggest Old Galifaran, the now extinct form of the Galifaran language spoken at the time of the formation of the Kingdom? Such a language would have no native speakers, and would not be intelligible (beyond a word here and there, and some stock phrases) to most of the current population.For another example of something similar, compare modern Turkish with Ottoman Turkish. All of Turkey's government records and archives from before, say, 1930, are in a language that while technically Turkish, is practically unintelligible to a young native speaker today. For one thing, Ottoman Turkish had a vastly different vocabulary; for another, it was written in a variety of Arabic script. So, records of the early Galifaran Empire might be in Old Common, which is like modern Common but with more Karrnathi dialect, Riedran/Lhazaarite vocabulary remnants, and a more arch writing system (think old German textbook fonts). Your antebellum dwarves, elves, and gnomes probably don't have much trouble with it, and the bookwyrms of Morgrave and Korranberg can rattle off beloved poems in Old Common, but most folks only hear that language when they're on the receiving end of a legal action. (Ooh-- the Marshals of House Deneith might prepare their warrants in Old Common. Someone should come up with Old Common for "You are bound by law to stand down!") I've mused before about the advantages of the non-mortal languages (Risian, Daanvi, etc). On one hand, I presume the languages of elementals and outsiders are static-- that is, the Kythric spoken by a slaad today is the exact same Kythric spoken 20,000 years ago. A scholar might write his treatise in such a language if he was concerned with long-term survivability of the work, since the language will never be lost. And yet, the language will never be lost because (in my interpretation) Kythric and Risian aren't "languages" like people speak-- they are effects, as integral a part of their respective planes as the time and gravity traits. In order to record concepts and concerns that are at odds with the planar language's inherent, unyielding vocabulary, a scholar has to twist and repurpose bits of it. So while that pre-Dhakaani tablet written in Kythric is instantly legible to a post-Last War factotum (who just happens to be fluent in all planar languages), he'll still have to figure out what the author meant by "On leg leg leg leg go day day day day to rock rock rock rock." It might mean "Ride [a horse] for four days to the mountains." Or, it might mean, "Go with the giant all day long/on the summer solstice to his castle." In the millenia since the tablet was written, mortal Kythric speakers went from using repetition to indicate magnitude to using it as a counter. No good asking the slaadi for help-- they don't use either convention, because it's not what Kythric's for! Draconic has a slight advantage in that it's spoken by creatures that live and adapt... but, I'll vote for something closer to home. ;)
ryanroyce 03-08-07, 10:01 AM	In our world latin has very specific resonances, of antiquity, sholarship and legal propriety, but is there a languge that would have these same resonances in Ebberon? In my game, I've introduced Zil, an old Gnomish tongue manufactured for the express purpose of having a very formal language suitable for use in legal documents, diplomacy, scholarship, etc. IMO, a race of wordsmiths like the gnomes don't settle for just one language, they have several. ;) BTW, Zil is a bonus language for anyone from the Five Nations, Zilargo, the Mror Holds, or one of the dragonmarked houses. I've also created several other tongues for Eberron, including Eldeen (common tongue of the Eldeen Reaches, derivative of Sylvan, automatic for Shifters), Droaamic (common, though not universal, tongue of Droaam; counts as bonus language for any creature from Droaam or neighboring nations), Xendi (dead tongue of the Giants' Empire, ancestor tongue to modern giant), Dhakaani (old tongue of the Dhakaani Empire, ancestor tongue to modern goblin and Droaam; mostly spoken by dirgesingers), Q'barran (common, though not universal, tongue of Q'barra; counts as bonus language for any creature from Q'barra or neighboring nations; derrivative of Draconic; spoken by non-dragons who normally speak Draconic, such as kobolds), and Lhazaar (a pidgin of several different languages, including Common, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Gnome, Old Karrnathi, Q'barran, and Riedran). Finally, you gain a +2 synergy bonus on Decipher Script checks to decipher an ancient language (such as Xendi) if you already know its derivative (such as Giant).
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 02:22 PM	On the Kythric Language I must respectfully disagree that it (and other Outsider languages) is unchanging. The beings in Kythri are inherently morphic in nature, they change at a whim, so it makes sense that their language(s) would as well. The language of kythri is radically different from speaker to speaker, and can undergo the degree of change necessary to derive Modern English from PIE (proto-Indo-European) in a matter of days. In short, the Kythric language is a complete impediment to understanding; and even if a mortal figured out how to hold a conversation in it, it would not be all that helpful as the discourse structure is more akin to a Samuel Beckett play than normal conversation. As a general rule, I have made the Outsider languages (which include Draconic actually) quite alien in structure to mortals. Daan, for example, has no nouns of any kind and only refers to concepts in a very elliptical fashion, rather like speaking in riddles. Terran, on the other hand, has no real verbs, and can take a very long time indeed to say even the simplest of things. In light of all of this, Outsider languages make a poor choice for a learned language that sees wide usage.
okaynowa 03-08-07, 03:32 PM	Said Darth Syntax:I must respectfully disagree that it (and other Outsider languages) is unchanging. The beings in Kythri are inherently morphic in nature, they change at a whim, so it makes sense that their language(s) would as well. Kythric was probably a poor choice of example on my part, but I still like to view the planar languages as conceptually static or, if you prefer, atemporal, at least from the perspective of a mortal native of Eberron. If Kythric is in fact something that can be learned, then perhaps a "fluent" speaker is someone who has developed a knack for the jazz-like mutation and improvisation of that tongue.The language of kythri is radically different from speaker to speaker, and can undergo the degree of change necessary to derive Modern English from PIE (proto-Indo-European) in a matter of days. In short, the Kythric language is a complete impediment to understanding; and even if a mortal figured out how to hold a conversation in it, it would not be all that helpful as the discourse structure is more akin to a Samuel Beckett play than normal conversation.Very poetic, but then how do "native speakers" actually communicate, if at all? Intuitive understanding? Telepathy? If it's inherently an impediment to communication, why call it a language? In the paradigm I envision, there'd certainly be differences between the Kythric that a githzerai grows up speaking, the Kythric that a chaotician learns at Morgrave University, and the Kythric a slaad knows when it springs fully formed from the planar fabric. The "pure" Kythric might evolve from second to second, but over time the fluctuations merge like a sort of white noise. The slaadi will roll with the changes and understand each other because it's an expression of who/what they are; mortals will inevitably start imposing some sort of structure on it (pink noise? red noise? analogy... escaping... grasp!). But a mortal who speaks with a slaad will have a chance to shed that imposed structure and regain a little of the accent of "unmodulated Kythric." And in any event, a slaad who was summoned into existence a second ago and a slaad who has spent the last ten millenia in a shard in Arcanix are speaking equally pure/unmodulated/unstructured/fluent native Kythric. Ultimately, the only real impact this view has on my game is that Outsiders understand each other regardless of whether they were called into existence a second ago or have spent the last millenia in a shard in Korranberg. Also, it gives me an excuse to say that magic items (like genie bottles and elemental blitzers) can have knowable command words despite being made during the Age of Demons.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 03:53 PM	Kythric is really best understood as an intensely personal language (or group of languages), it is not meant to be a means of communication in the way we use language, but rather a phonetic expression of the thought of the speaker in its raw state. At the underlying level, all true native speakers of Kythric can understand each other, but they are not sure why they would want to do that. So when two Kythric natives have a chat they don't talk to each other, they talk at each other, rambling off on tangents, overlapping each other, and generally not making any sense to mortals. The prevailing thought behind Kythric is that there is no meaning in anything, no purpose, no truth, so the only way to convey this in speech is by a language which has no fixed shape, no rules, and is really a kind of philosophical gibberish. The irony is that meaning is exchanged in these conversations, in spite of the cacophony. -- Outsider language do change, and they are related to each other, although often in surprising ways. Daan is the closest relative to Kythric, although you'd never know it to listen to them. In turn, these two languages are close relatives of the Syranian languages, Daelkyr, and Quori, but only very very distantly related to the Shavarrathan languages, the Elemental tongues, Fernian and Risian. Even more distant relatives as Eberron Infernal (Rakshas), Draconic, and Progenitor. Granted the time-depth on Outsider languages is much greater than on mortal tongues, but it isn't infinite and should something happen that changes the underlying philosophy of the planes, new languages, and new outsiders will develop out of the old.
Splendide 03-08-07, 03:54 PM	Very poetic, but then how do "native speakers" actually communicate, if at all? Intuitive understanding? Telepathy? I would say it could be subjective. For example, the structure may depend on what you are like at the time, and what the person you're talking to at the time is like, with a ridiculous number of variations possible.
okaynowa 03-08-07, 04:03 PM	Granted the time-depth on Outsider languages is much greater than on mortal tongues, but it isn't infinite and should something happen that changes the underlying philosophy of the planes, new languages, and new outsiders will develop out of the old.That's a concept I'd be comfortable with. In effect, if the nature of Risia changes, the Risian language changes with it. Maybe pre-change native speakers pick up the new language, maybe they continue to speak version 1.0 (but are slowly phased out of existence as new natives are spawned from the altered fabric of the plane). But that's a language change based on a paradigm shift of the cosmos, not linguistic drift-- innit? That's another reason for the Dreaming Dark to resist the change of the cycle in Dal Quor-- they just finished upgrading all their manuals from the last turning of the wheel.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 04:11 PM	Splendide is correct, provided that she/he/respected androgyn is also currently having tea, contemplating the use of sailboats in the eastern Mediterranean, facing west, wearing a large absurd hat, shivering with moderate cold, and herding small whales. Otherwise, Splindide is actually talking about Aundairan dance customs, or not . . . -- On the issue of Old Galifaran, if you are using English to represent the modern language, Anglo-Saxon would make sense as a fill-in language. If you game in Romanian, French, Catalan, or some such, then go with Latin (just make sure to pronouce all c's as "k", all j's as either "i" or "y" and all v's as either "u" or "w", and all will be well). If you game in Mandarin, then go with Old Chinese, etc.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 04:12 PM	That's a concept I'd be comfortable with. In effect, if the nature of Risia changes, the Risian language changes with it. Maybe pre-change native speakers pick up the new language, maybe they continue to speak version 1.0 (but are slowly phased out of existence as new natives are spawned from the altered fabric of the plane). But that's a language change based on a paradigm shift of the cosmos, not linguistic drift-- innit? That's another reason for the Dreaming Dark to resist the change of the cycle in Dal Quor-- they just finished upgrading all their manuals from the last turning of the wheel. I would go a step father and say that when the philosophy changes, the old outsiders die out or completely transform. Dal Quor seems to be the most dramatic example of this.
Roxlimn 03-21-07, 07:54 AM	Old Goblin, definitely. It was the written language of a dead but magically advanced civilization. All the massive old ruins all around you are Goblinoid. Some of the best magic and technology come from the old Goblin Empire. I would say that Old Goblin would probably equate best to Latin.
Darth Syntax 03-21-07, 02:38 PM	Although there might be some precedent in using the ancient Dhakaani language, there is the issue of translation, not to mention the long-standing pejoration of the goblinoids by Galifaran civilization. I don't imagine that there are many about who have any real idea how to understand or pronounce the language. But that's to be expected in a language that has been dead for about 8700 years.
goblin_pride 03-21-07, 03:15 PM	Not to mention that it would be more like Americans using a language like Nahuatl or Chahokian today. I think old Galifaran would be a better choice for the Eberron Latin, or perhaps a language from Sarlona.
AntiSean 03-21-07, 03:27 PM	I'm not sure that I'd have an entirely different old language per se (or at least none with any in-game effects; I like the flavor of this idea, but don't really want to have to deal with any crunchy bits added to the game as a result), but along similar lines to some previous suggestions, I would make sure that, assuming that Riedran evolved from older Sarlonan languages, that there were several cognates/similarities/resonances between Riedran and old Galifaran/whatever, but enough differences to make effective communication impossible. Then again, I've just spent the last couple of weeks having the Latin subjunctive mood hammered into my head, so I might be speaking out of spite. :)
Bluebrush 03-21-07, 07:00 PM	I'll put in another vote for Draconic. Ancient, associated with knowledge and rare enough to keep the common oiks out of it. Plus the image of a random kobold being better at reading legal documents than a scholar is pretty funny. I'd suggest modern gnome as a good official lanuage. It's implied modern gnome is a constructed language (Since it uses dwarvern script instead of specific gnome letters*) and gnomes have wormed their way into the support structure of society. *It mentions in the Zilargo dragonshard that the ancient gnomes wrote by cutting notches into sticks. I'd suggest that dwarvish script was chosen because it uses a lot of easy-to-carve straight lines, similar to the straight cut notches of ancient gnome.
Subtle Knife 03-21-07, 07:42 PM	In our campaign, I've introduced several new languages: - Gnomish – appeared to be accidentally excluded from the Eberron campaign setting; this represents the colloquial language of the gnomes - Common is now known as Galifaran, representing it as the primary language of Khorvaire from the time of Galifar - Old Galifaran (also known as Lhazaarite) – derived from Riedran, and from which Galifaran is derived - Dhakaan – the ancient language of the Empire of Dhakaan, from which the modern goblin language is derived - Zil – the second, lesser-known language of the gnomes, representing their formal and legal language In principle, Giant is also divided into two dialects, the original and highly refined/complex language of the ancient giants of Xendrik, and the degenerate language used by giants, ogres, and to some degree, drow. SK
Edymnion 03-21-07, 08:44 PM	Put my vote in for Old Galifarian/Old Common (which would be the same thing). I mean, look at Old English, it simply isn't readable by most people today. Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum Si þin nama gehalgod. To becume þin rice, gewurþe ðin willa, on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg, and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum. And ne gelæd þu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. Soþlice. Recognize any of that? Its the Lord's Prayer in Old English. Maybe you can recognize Fæder as Father, the articles To and And are unchanged. Gyltendum might throw you for a loop, but its Guilty. Hlaf makes not sense until you realize modern english dropped the H and added an O to make it Loaf, as in loaf of bread (our daily loaf, aka our daily bread). Todæg becomes Today. Think you can read "and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum." now? "And forgive us our guilts as we forgive our guilty", better known today as "And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us". You can see the similiarities when they're pointed out, but very few would be able to read it. And old english is about as old to us as old common would be to khovarians.
Darth Syntax 03-21-07, 09:03 PM	I agree with Edy here that some form of Old Galifaran would be best. And for those you you who are scared of the Old English, might I suggest Middle English? It's almost completely comprehensible, although it sounds really odd, especially sense all those 'silent' letters were pronounced at this point. Example of Middle English Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote The droghte of March hath perced to the roote And bathed every veyne in swich licour, Of which vertu engendred is the flour; 5 Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth Inspired hath in every holt and heeth The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne, And smale foweles maken melodye, 10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye- (So priketh hem Nature in hir corages); Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes; 15 And specially from every shires ende Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende, The hooly blisful martir for to seke That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke. This is, of course, part of the General Prologue to The Canterbury Tales. For fun, here is a translation of the same text into modern english When in April the sweet showers fall That pierce March's drought to the root and all And bathed every vein in liquor that has power To generate therein and sire the flower; 5 When Zephyr also has with his sweet breath, Filled again, in every holt and heath, The tender shoots and leaves, and the young sun His half-course in the sign of the Ram has run, And many little birds make melody 10 That sleep through all the night with open eye (So Nature pricks them on to ramp and rage) Then folk do long to go on pilgrimage, And palmers to go seeking out strange strands, To distant shrines well known in distant lands. 15 And specially from every shire's end Of England they to Canterbury went, The holy blessed martyr there to seek Who helped them when they lay so ill and weak
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-21-07, 09:34 PM	Thank you all, Im leaning towards a languge not far from that spoken by the inital human colonists from sarlona now, 'Lazare' as from colonisation onwards scholars would have had books older than them selves they reffered to and such reference use slows and stagnates linguistic drift.
Woodstock 03-21-07, 10:04 PM	By one side, the language from the Empire of Dhakaan would be a good choice of "latin of Khorvaire". It was the language of a powerful empire that dominated the continent, as the Roman empire dominated Europe 1700 years ago. On the other hand, draconic has the same restricted use as latin used to have in our history. Only the church and some nobles (or their most brillant cientists) had control of the use of Latin; in Khorvaire only arcane students, dragons and other powerful people have access to draconic.
Titanic Ego 03-21-07, 10:24 PM	By one side, the language from the Empire of Dhakaan would be a good choice of "latin of Khorvaire". It was the language of a powerful empire that dominated the continent, as the Roman empire dominated Europe 1700 years ago. On the other hand, draconic has the same restricted use as latin used to have in our history. Only the church and some nobles (or their most brillant cientists) had control of the use of Latin; in Khorvaire only arcane students, dragons and other powerful people have access to draconic. Recall that Draconic is the 'Latin' of the Church of the Silver Flame (and, not coincidentally, the couatl).
Dragonrunner 03-21-07, 11:41 PM	Let us go back to the beggining of this thread. In our world latin has very specific resonances, of antiquity, sholarship and legal propriety, but is there a languge that would have these same resonances in Ebberon? Now, my two pennies of wisdom. Although I agree that Old English sounds weird enough to fit our search, it does not present any of the characteristics of Latin. In this line, Old Galifaran (or Old Common) would fall in the same categories. Very simplistically, and only for the purpose of superficially comparing Latin to Eberron languages, I will divide Latin into two phases: the live one and the dead one. For the first part, any very old Eberron language which saw its structure consolidated beyond the "dialecticisms" of its origins, most probably following cultural and scientific evolutions, is a good candidate to a comparison to Latin. Obviously, records of that language would have to exist in durable means so that future generations could study them. Giant (or Xendi, as someone posted), Dhakaani and Old Gnomish would probably be good choices. Draconic can easily be added to this list, even if only because it is a consolidated language — perhaps even throughout the planes — though nothing is known of how it came to be. Riedran would also be a possibility, if proven it was brought to Khorvaire as an academic language. Elven, Dwarven and Halfling may, of course, also be added to this list. Comparison to the dead phase of Latin calls for a completely different approach. Throughout the Middle-Ages, into the Renaissance and to the Contemporary world, Latin has always been used as an academic language. While the more humanist intellectuals of old would commonly write in their own native languages (English, French, German, Italian, ...), works on subjetcs such as Mathematics and Astronomy by other (or the same) scholars — and for that matter, the Church — would stick to Latin. Middle-English was barely used academically and even then, only by employing hundreds of Latin or Latin-derived French terms. Since the tendency is to compare Common to English, Old-Galifar (or Old-Common) would not be a good choice. Following the requirements of this second category, I must promptly reject Giant (or Xendi), Dhakaani and Riedran for none of them seems to be widely used academically. Of the remaining ones, Draconic is known to be extensively used by wielders of the Arcane Arts, being present in written works as well as spoken ones. Gnomish in Eberron, on the other hand, is probably as much used in the Arcane Arts as Draconic, except that almost by Gnomes only and probably by a few artificers. Elven has not seen a broad erudite use among the human kingdoms and neither have Dwarven or Halfling, so these ones are out. Such as it is, my vote goes for Draconic. Although quite singular in origin and development, it is a proven language in the academic circles of Khorvaire (and probably beyond). It is the "universal" arcane language in a world of magic-developed technology, with thousands of spellbooks, items, wards and whatever-arcane-stuff-you-can-think-of as evidence of its widespread use. For that matter, Giant (or Xendi) may well be something like Arabic, Sanscrit or Chinese. Cultures as advanced (or more) as the Romans or the Greek city-states. Giant has already been proven to be a powerful parallel arcane language, sometimes thought to be stronger than Draconic. Well... that's only because the dragons want it this way.
Darth Syntax 03-22-07, 01:07 AM	I must respectfully disagree with the use of Draconic and with your analysis of why Old Galifaran would not be a suitable language analogue for Latin. As I mentioned above, Draconic is a language (possibly several languages) which are spoken by beings of a very inhuman (and inhumanoid) psychology. As such the structure of that language is unlikely to be particular comprehensible to humanoids. Sure, one can learn it, but it's not the kind of thing one writes lengthy essays or formulates scientific theories in. It is simply too alien a language for such a use. Secondly, I believe you have overlooked one of the primary reasons Latin was afforded such a high status as a language: cultural capital. Latin was the administrative language of the Roman Empire and as such was widely spread and widely understood by people across the empire. Latin is no more structurally suited to being a learned language than any other, it is a quirk of history that is is afforded such status. The Old Galifaran language would have enjoyed much the same cultural position of Latin: it was the administrative language of Early Galifar and as such would be widely understood by the learned elements of society. Legal codes would have been written in it, official documents would be drawn up in it, and it would have enjoyed the status as a lingua franca throughout the Galifaran empire. By all historical rights, old Galifaran is 'Latin'. The only reason such languages as Old English were suggested is because the vast majority of us here on the boards seem to game in English. Sense Old English, and not Latin, is our direct ancestor, the analogy is closer. If we were all gaming in Catalan or Italian then we would all just use Latin, as it would be our direct ancestor. Of course, I don't think that modern Galifaran sounds a thing like modern English (it sounds to me a bit more Like lithuanian crossed with Greek actually), but as I don't feel the need to make either myself or my gaming companions learn a constructed language (cool though that would be), using analogues seems a better, and simpler, course of action. -- As an aside: What approximate technical level do any of you see for the people of the Sarlonan migration? I was seeing mid iron-age people myself.
Splendide 03-22-07, 01:26 AM	Secondly, I believe you have overlooked one of the primary reasons Latin was afforded such a high status as a language: cultural capital. Latin was the administrative language of the Roman Empire and as such was widely spread and widely understood by people across the empire. Latin is no more structurally suited to being a learned language than any other, it is a quirk of history that is is afforded such status.This is why I still favour Elven. I think the Khoravar dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040906a) helps put where my view is coming from into perspective. 1. Elves are renowed users of arcane arts 2. Elves are among the oldest trading partners of both humans AND those scribing gnomes 3a. Elven has been carried across the continent by not only elves, but half-elves too. 3b. Lets not forget that House Phiarlan is responsible for a lot of cultural input. 4. As referenced in the link I gave, elven is most likely to have spread through privileged classes than through low-income guttersnipes. The only strike against Elven being Khorvaire's latin is that it isn't a dead language.
Darth Syntax 03-22-07, 01:45 AM	It's not a bad choice, but it probably would not have the same vibe as Latin when it comes to legal and political affairs. It might be more like the Ancient Greek of the world: a philosophical, scientific language rather than a legalistic one.
goblin_pride 03-22-07, 07:04 AM	Did you consider that elven and draconic both are not dead languages? I think old galifaran or old gnomish would be a better choice. Dhakaani wouldn't be accepted across all of the continent simply because of the bias against the goblinoids. There's the problem with the whole of the Dhakaani empire not being completely studied yet as well. So Dhakaani would be a bit too obscure.
Splendide 03-22-07, 07:35 AM	It's not a bad choice, but it probably would not have the same vibe as Latin when it comes to legal and political affairs. It might be more like the Ancient Greek of the world: a philosophical, scientific language rather than a legalistic one.This makes me think of a bit of an outsider if we're talking about legal use - why not Dwarven? * Galifar and his kin were from Karrnath. Nearest indigenous race to there would probably be the dwarves. * Their language was useful enough that gnomes adopted the script. * Dwarves are a lawful people with a lot of tradition.
Beleriphon 03-22-07, 08:43 AM	As an aside: What approximate technical level do any of you see for the people of the Sarlonan migration? I was seeing mid iron-age people myself. Late bronze age or early iron age. This is compared to the Dhaakani that had progressed into the late iron age before their empire fell apart. I also think that for a Latin like language to be used in Eberron you need to have something that is easily available to be learned, if not commonly used. Despite the fact that nobody uses Latin any more as a full language its very easy to go out an find someplace to learn Latin.
Edymnion 03-22-07, 12:57 PM	Late bronze age or early iron age. This is compared to the Dhaakani that had progressed into the late iron age before their empire fell apart. I also think that for a Latin like language to be used in Eberron you need to have something that is easily available to be learned, if not commonly used. Despite the fact that nobody uses Latin any more as a full language its very easy to go out an find someplace to learn Latin.Which is why I still side with Old Galifar/Old Common. It was the language of the vast all encompassing empire that later fractured apart, to which everyone looks back as being "the glory days", just like Rome. Given that all of the treaties, laws, legal documents, etc of the past thousand years would have been written in it, it makes the ideal latin equivolent, IMO. Because, as was said, latin only became the "scholarly" language because Rome kept extensive records and was a huge center of learning. Even after the fall of Rome, it was the fragments of roman knowledge that were held dear among the scholary type, which were all written in latin. As was said, Latin became the scholarly language purely through coincidence and widespread ancient use, not because it was suited to the task. As for what Common sounds like today, maybe it sounds a bit like Esperanto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto)? A blend of all major languages.
Darth Syntax 03-22-07, 03:19 PM	Esperanto? You wound me sir! The linguist in me dies a little more ;) I wouldn't use dwarven myself, as until comparatively recently the dwaves were a bunch of barbarians with out much of a legal tradition. -- As to the technical level of the Late Dhakaani Empire I was thinking more early 20th century myself.
goblin_pride 03-22-07, 03:52 PM	Late bronze age or early iron age. This is compared to the Dhaakani that had progressed into the late iron age before their empire fell apart. The Empire had been dead and gone for all intents and purposes for more than a Millenia when the Sarlonan invaders arrived. Those late iron age cultures they encontered were the barbarians that once lived outside the fringes of the empire. As to the technical level of the Late Dhakaani Empire I was thinking more early 20th century myself. About WW I or so in your view, Darth? The Dhakaani were more technologically and magically advanced than any other race in the history of Eberron with the sole exception of the Giants. The creatures that the Sarlonans encountered in the territories now called Karrnath poisoned the well so to speak. The reason the Dhakaani language isn't preferential as the latin of the world is because of the bias against theose degenerate barbarians that are similar in form to the children of the Dhakaan. Once again, I would recommend the language that the humans brought with them from Sarlona or the language of the anciant Zil. Personally, I would go with Zil for the simple fact that it developed in the shadow of the Dhakaani. The possibility that the PCs could find Dhakaani artifacts or ruins with writings that they can find a word or two that they understand will screw with them something fierce. Goblin, Ancient Zil, Gnome and even Orc were influenced by the Dhakaani tongue, but for the legal documents it wouldn't do to use the language of "those brutes".
Yakman 03-22-07, 04:13 PM	Well, it really depends on who you are talking to, wouldn't it? The remnants of the Dhakaan would point to High Dhakaani, the language spoken by the courts just prior to the invasion of the Daelkyr. The Elves would most likely direct you to whatever tongue the Deathless speak--perhaps some variation of Giant (which makes for an interesting paradigm, as the Elves of Khorvaire will speak a different elven, one which has evolved, rather than the ancient elven which is maintained in Aerenal) The Gnomes may have an "old Zil", the dwarves the same "Arch-Fellan" As for humans, the answer is clearly Old Galifaran, which is almost certainly a direct descendant of a Sarlonan language.
Edymnion 03-22-07, 09:07 PM	Esperanto? You wound me sir! The linguist in me dies a little more ;) Hey, I never made any claims as to the quality of the language. :P
Darth Syntax 03-22-07, 09:24 PM	Very well then, I shall accept your implied apology, but I will not share my secret recipe for braised short ribs in the western Karrnathi style.
Huzzah! 03-23-07, 10:24 AM	Prior to the advent of common dental care, the lingua franca of the time was a primitive hand-talk. Its users, finding it inadequate for complex information or metaphor, punctuated and emphasized their hand-talk with grunts and whistles. Eventually these proto-words came to ecclipse the hand-talk and became Old Galifar. Oddly enough, some common physical gestures among the goblinoids that are considered vulgar have their roots in lexicon related to braised ribs Karnathi style.... I don't know what I'm talking about.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 11:34 AM	I suppose it has to do with perspective. I certainly don't look to Rome as being particularly glorious, and its fall also didn't affect history all that obviously beyond its sphere of influence. Latin is the dead language concerned with a defunct civilization from some remote part of the world. That makes it like Dhakaani for me. I also don't know that the Khorvairians would view High Dhakaani in the same manner they would view Goblin. After all, all Khorvairains are familiar with old and inscrutable ruins that date back to the days of the Dhakaani Empire. Learned scholars would be even more acquainted with the technical and magical sophistication of this old race - even to the point of teaching its history in Morgrave and the University of Korranberg. Delving into Dhakaani ruins for powerful magical artifacts isn't so obscure that your average adventurer would consider it all that unusual.
ryanroyce 03-24-07, 12:31 PM	Once again, I would recommend the language that the humans brought with them from Sarlona or the language of the anciant Zil. Personally, I would go with Zil for the simple fact that it developed in the shadow of the Dhakaani. The possibility that the PCs could find Dhakaani artifacts or ruins with writings that they can find a word or two that they understand will screw with them something fierce. Goblin, Ancient Zil, Gnome and even Orc were influenced by the Dhakaani tongue, but for the legal documents it wouldn't do to use the language of "those brutes". I would go with Zil, a manufactured tongue designed for a high level of specificity and almost zero error-tolerance, simply because the gnomes are notorious linguists who probably would've been responsible for most of the earliest texts on Khorvaire. Also, since Zilargo was also one of King Galifar's early "conquests", Zil's influence as a scholarly language could have spread as the kingdom did, too. One of the primary benefits of Latin as a scholar's tongue is that it is very difficult for two truly fluent speakers to misunderstand each other. I think a gnomish language fits this bill quite neatly. Dhakaani would also be suitable IF there had actually been any cultural continuity between the two empires.
goblin_pride 03-24-07, 12:39 PM	Dhakaani would also be suitable IF there had actually been any cultural continuity between the two empires. Which two?
Edymnion 03-24-07, 01:08 PM	Prior to the advent of common dental care, the lingua franca of the time was a primitive hand-talk. Its users, finding it inadequate for complex information or metaphor, punctuated and emphasized their hand-talk with grunts and whistles. Eventually these proto-words came to ecclipse the hand-talk and became Old Galifar. Oddly enough, some common physical gestures among the goblinoids that are considered vulgar have their roots in lexicon related to braised ribs Karnathi style....Yes, the hand sign of raising the middle finger is considered vulgar today, but in goblinoid times, holding up fingers in this manner was the way you indicated how many braised ribs Karnnathi style you wanted. They started counting on the middle finger, as the first finger was reserved to indicate direction (hence, holding up the first finger would indicate "Look up", not the number 1). Raising only 1 finger in counting when requesting braised ribs karnnathi style was considered a boarderline insult in that while you did want some, you did not consider the person's cooking adequate enough to warrent more. Over time, the gesture lost it's "barely adequate" meaning and became wholely an insulting gesture. :D
Darth Syntax 03-24-07, 02:52 PM	I would go with Zil, a manufactured tongue designed for a high level of specificity and almost zero error-tolerance, simply because the gnomes are notorious linguists who probably would've been responsible for most of the earliest texts on Khorvaire. Also, since Zilargo was also one of King Galifar's early "conquests", Zil's influence as a scholarly language could have spread as the kingdom did, too. One of the primary benefits of Latin as a scholar's tongue is that it is very difficult for two truly fluent speakers to misunderstand each other. I think a gnomish language fits this bill quite neatly. Dhakaani would also be suitable IF there had actually been any cultural continuity between the two empires. Trouble is, we don't know is Zil was constructed, and even if it was, what you are suggesting is that it is a loglang or Logical Language. If Zil is a longlang, then it is going to be highly unnatural to speak and write and will have 'naturalized' within a very short order. My own assumptions regarding Zil are that it is a perfectly natural language but it's a grammatical omnivore. Zil tends to borrow (and then modify) grammatical features of other languages to suit it own ends. So, proto-Zil borrowed the parative case and the telic/atelic distinction from Old High Dhakaani, which is still preserved in modern Zil. However Zil doesn't borrow words very much, but it does tend to form calques (or loan transfers). A calque is basically when a language borrows the meaning of a word or phrase but realizes it in its own terms. It would be as if English didn't borrow the Greek term tele- and the latin term vision to form 'television' but rather called it a "far-viewer" or "picture-box". In related news, It seems to me to make a bit more historical sense if Zil is written in it's own script and that Dwarven borrowed a heavily modified form of it for their own system.
Roxlimn 03-24-07, 10:25 PM	To some extent, Khorvairian humans do consider themselves the cultural inheritors of the Dhakaani. They loot old Dhakaani ruins and claim its objects as their own. They build on old ruins and probably also study the old designs for inspiration. Heck, there are learned Dhakaani historians in the most prominent universities, and adventurers plunge into old ruins to "rescue" artifacts. Sharnites look at the bowels of their city and see solid Dhakaani foundations, rife with things beyond their understanding, containing power and secrets they can only dream of. I suppose Dhakaan is more like Altlantis than it is Rome, but if High Dhakaani could be understood by modern experts, then it would probably be the great language of learning, since by default, there's a great deal of power to be gained by reading any Dhakaani artifactual script, whereas there isn't all that much to be gained by reading Old Galifar, other than reading old records. The thing I'm getting at is that the Galifaran Kingdom isn't so old that the modern Khorvaire doesn't have any artifacts or magic that didn't rival or exceed it. There would be no terminology in Olf Galifar that didn't have modern translation, such that there's no need to refer to it in Old Galifar. In contrast, there's probably entire magical theories and concepts that are untranslatable from High Dhakaani, and these terms would be incorporated wholesale into Common. As a dead language containing a lot of learning and untranslatable concepts, it would quickly become apparent that just conversing in High Dhakaani itself would be preferrable when discussing, say, advanced architecture in the manner of the Old Goblins.
Dragonrunner 03-24-07, 10:54 PM	In face of the opinions posted, I must admit I have to change my vote. I agree with Darth when it comes to Draconic being a completely alien language while still not dead. Added to that comes the fact that Draconic is actually used differently by every user or group of users, who employ it according to their own needs (e.g., spellcaster 1, spellcaster 2, kobolds, etc.). Thus it's ruled out. Elven, while not as alien as Draconic, is quite new when compared to Draconic, Giant and High Dhakaani and, again, it's not a dead language. So Elven also out. Gnomish is another possibility I'll cast aside. I feel that, outside Gnomish society, it would be a language restricted to arcane spellcasters and artificers. These would take the time to study Gnomish for the sole purpose of benefiting from the magical expertise of the gnomes. So I'll now cast my vote for High Dhakaani. It's ancient, it's humanoid (if not downright human), it has the feeling of a language acquired by conquest long ago (although that is debatable), and it probably had an interesting impact in the way the human settlements evolved in Korvaire, both in magical circles and other socio-political aspects of the human culture.
Darth Syntax 03-25-07, 12:31 AM	Kuln nïïsäzhröi yōm negaolan Kyovarnalo vuktrahlaren sol vonuktalan, kyonn dēshan nedaarlukesham vuktrahlarthnon Translation: If you would wish for for the people of Khorvaire to speak this way, then they must speak Daarlukesh (OHD)
Roxlimn 03-25-07, 01:30 AM	I imagine that actual Khorvairian Common is just as weird, if not moreso.
Darth Syntax 03-25-07, 01:42 AM	Oh I agree, I just felt the need to respond in OHD (in it's current revision).
Yakman 03-26-07, 11:21 AM	I dunno about the Dhakaani. Certainly the majority of humans on Galifar aren't big fans of goblins, and their historical relations are pretty violent. Moreover, when Lhazar showed up, the goblinoids had decayed--they couldn't even understand their own legacy. Would the humans look at themselves as the inheritors of a legacy that had spawned these decayed, corrupt, and venal breeds? I very much doubt it--the 'legacy' was that of opponents who pretty obviously failed hundreds of years before Lhazar showed up. No, I prefer to think that the 5N see themselves as something fresh, but look back to old Sarlona--which is perhaps the reason why the Inspired have been so welcome...
Roxlimn 03-27-07, 10:52 AM	Secrets of Sarlona and the ECS strongly suggest that the humans who came to Khorvaire were looking for something new. They wanted to forget everything they knew about Sarlona. They don't look back to Sarlona as anything but a half-forgotten past best left to itself - or as a new and alien neighbor that's only vaguely related to them. If the ECS tells us about anything, it's that nationalism trumps anything in Khorvaire. The Brelish may be a racist lot who treat goblins as little better than slaves, but they still like those Thranes even less. That means that race is not a big factor or barrier to their incorporating cultural remnants from their new home. I think that humans think of modern goblins as unworthy of inheriting the mighty Empire they once had and think of themselves as the inheritors of old Dhakaan. They won't call their empire New Dhakaan, of course, but they do refer to Dhakaani history as their own, and to old Dhakaani ruins as their own.
Yakman 03-27-07, 10:57 AM	People in RL flee their homelands for all sorts of reasons and then look back to them with some fondness and try to keep old traditions alive. Why should Galifar be different. Moreover, the rapid increase in interest and trade with Sarlona suggests that Khorvairans are interested in their heritage. Why would they look at old Dhakaani ruins as their own? The history of Galifar and its preceding states is one of conflict with the goblinoids. Certainly some of Galifar's cities were built atop goblin ones... but only after the goblins had been put to the sword.
Roxlimn 03-27-07, 02:06 PM	People in RL flee their homelands for all sorts of reasons and then look back to them with some fondness and try to keep old traditions alive. Why should Galifar be different. Uh, because existing printed text says so? The refugees Lhazaar brought with her did NOT want to remember their former lives. They forsook everything. This is not speculation. It's been mentioned several times on the boards, and is printed in Secrets of Sarlona. You are speculating about things which have already been determined. You're quite free to do so, of course, but in all cases, please prefix your statements with clauses to that effect. Why would they look at old Dhakaani ruins as their own? The history of Galifar and its preceding states is one of conflict with the goblinoids. Certainly some of Galifar's cities were built atop goblin ones... but only after the goblins had been put to the sword. Because Khorvairians have a stronger sense of belonging to their land than to their race. Features and the history of their lands would bee seen as "their" history. It's been mentioned that Khorvairian humans contest the Darguun hobgoblins for ownership of ruins and sites. Not just land rights, but cultural rights as well.
goblin_pride 03-27-07, 06:26 PM	It's been mentioned that Khorvairian humans contest the Darguun hobgoblins for ownership of ruins and sites. Not just land rights, but cultural rights as well. Yeah, in Darguun. The graverobbing bastards are looking to claim the culture that would tie together the goblinoids of the nation in the ancient dreams of empire so that they can sell the plunder of the ancient sites to the museums back home. It's not the culture of the Dhakaani that the humans are embracing, it's the lure of the gold that the artifacts from that culture will fill their purses. If there's a common thread to fulfill the role of Latin in Khorvaire, I would still make it the language of old Galifar or even the tongue spoken by Karrn the Conquerer. Go back to the roots of the human history and find the language spoken during the reign of someone that made a significant cultural impact or a kingdom or empire that all others can look back to as influential. Latin became important in our culture because it was the language that the church used, not because Rome was so terribly important. Sure, the Romans carried it far and wide, it was influential in the formation of later languages but that's just because it evolved as a language. Latin became the de facto legal language because of the influence of the church. When the only schools and universities were run by the church, the langauge of the church takes a greater importance. Now that the church has faded from it's importance, we're left looking back and scratching our heads wondering why Latin is used so widely.
Roxlimn 03-27-07, 07:02 PM	It isn't just the gold, and it isn't just the plunder. Most importantly, it isn't just in Darguun! Those Dhakaani ruins are all over the place, and in many instances, humans simply built over foundations already built by goblins. Plunder is attractive to adventurers, of course, but that "plunder" is sought by archeologists and arcanists and governments and organizations. Why? For power. For prestige. For knowledge. For legitimacy. Adventurers in Sharn brave the unknown goblin depths on a continuing basis to unearth architectural wonders and ruins that may or may not have actual magical power. And oftentimes, they DO unearth scribed scrolls containing all kinds of information, sometimes immediately useful (magical scrolls) or sometimes even more valuable (magical spells, magic theories, architectural or military theories). There is a huge incentive, immediate, intermediate, and long term for everyone to learn this language to get at this ancient storehouse. What could facilitate its spread so evenly and completely? Galifar. With One Nation comes one common language, one King, one Law. Whereas before it would only be isolated colleges in competing nations studying these ancient nuggets of power, once they consolidate their findings and discuss them, they're all too likely to just lapse into High Dhakaani wholesale, instead of interspersing Old Galifar with High Dhakaani. Heck, they might have been liable to do that anyway in normal conversation. High Dhakaani would likely not ever have been used for law. It's just too alien, and it seems unlikely that the law concerns of ancient goblins would correlate well with that of Galifar. It would have been in Old Galifar, but these laws would have been translated continuously into Common such that there is no need to refer to Old Galifar at all. Unlike us, the Old Galifarans would likely have used Gnome for law contracts, since Gnomish is likely to contain all kinds of niceties and nuances that's fit to tie legal conundrums with. Meanwhile, High Dhakaani would likely have leaked into such interests as magic, architecture, warfare, even natural sciences and navigation, as well as planar studies.
Euangelion 03-27-07, 09:33 PM	Latin became important in our culture because it was the language that the church used, not because Rome was so terribly important. Sure, the Romans carried it far and wide, it was influential in the formation of later languages but that's just because it evolved as a language. Latin became the de facto legal language because of the influence of the church. When the only schools and universities were run by the church, the langauge of the church takes a greater importance. Now that the church has faded from it's importance, we're left looking back and scratching our heads wondering why Latin is used so widely. Or one could argue that the spread of the Latin language and the spread of the Christian Church were both made possible by the far-reaching borders of the Roman Empire. As I'm sure others have mentioned, while they are no longer Latin, the languages Romanian, Spanish, French, Italian, Portugese, and a myriad of other languages are designated Romance languages because they derive from the language of Rome. The only thing the Church did was artificially preserve (to a certain degree) the mother language in an earlier form due to its natural conservatism (just as its worship leaders preserve the height of Roman fashion in 90 CE, ie. the white robes called albs). Draconic cannot be the Eberronian Latin, since it's a living language. I would have to say that there is no Eberronian Latin, since one would have to find a dead language with descendents that has been preserved in an earlier form by a far-flung institution. Now, if the Dragonmarked Houses were to use a dead language, say an early form of Common, to conduct business among themselves, then you might have something... Keep in mind that while Tolkien created Middle Earth to explain the differences and similarities between two languages he made up, the development and spread of languages was probably not first and foremost on the minds of the developers of Eberron. (If I've said something someone else has said earlier, I apologize for my hasty skimming of the thread...)
Daydreamer 03-27-07, 11:22 PM	dolgrims.
Yakman 03-28-07, 11:17 AM	Uh, because existing printed text says so? The refugees Lhazaar brought with her did NOT want to remember their former lives. They forsook everything. This is not speculation. It's been mentioned several times on the boards, and is printed in Secrets of Sarlona. You are speculating about things which have already been determined. You're quite free to do so, of course, but in all cases, please prefix your statements with clauses to that effect. eh? That they may have sought to forget their former lives, it's a question of who we are talking about. Lhazar and his people were criminals, refugees, renegades, people who were the dregs of Sarlonan society. Would they want to preserve their former lives? I think not. Moreover, this does not translate into their adopting the script of their enemies, who they've spent thousands of years attempting to exterminate, enslave, or drive into the wilderness. Moreover, the vast interest that we see in Sarlonan goods, esp. those of cultural significance in SoS suggests that Khorvairans do possess some fondness for or seek to reclaim their Sarlonan heritage. Because Khorvairians have a stronger sense of belonging to their land than to their race. Features and the history of their lands would bee seen as "their" history. It's been mentioned that Khorvairian humans contest the Darguun hobgoblins for ownership of ruins and sites. Not just land rights, but cultural rights as well.Khorvairans are not only humans, but elves, gnomes, dwarves, halflings, etc.. None of whom have buddy buddy feelings for the dhakaani or their degenerated heirs. That humans are contesting ownership of ruins and sites does not immediately translate into culture wars either. It simply means that one group or the other wants that land for any or all of a plethora of possible reasons.
Roxlimn 03-28-07, 01:37 PM	Yakman: Moreover, this does not translate into their adopting the script of their enemies, who they've spent thousands of years attempting to exterminate, enslave, or drive into the wilderness. Moreover, the vast interest that we see in Sarlonan goods, esp. those of cultural significance in SoS suggests that Khorvairans do possess some fondness for or seek to reclaim their Sarlonan heritage. 1. It's her. Lhazaar is a she. 2. Their enemies were the tribal goblins who bear little to no resemblance to their glorious forebears. 3. There isn't any "great demand" for Sarlonan goods in general in Khorvaire. What interest there is is for raw materials or for extremely exotic items (that are seen as alien). Whatever Sarlona was like when Lhazaar left, Reidra is almost completely alien compared to it. Khorvairans are not only humans, but elves, gnomes, dwarves, halflings, etc.. None of whom have buddy buddy feelings for the dhakaani or their degenerated heirs. Khorvairians are ALSO goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. These races have greater numbers in Darguun, but they can be found in the Five Nations. Many of the workers in Sharn's bowels are goblins. A Brelish craftsman or any race would have a great deal more fondness for his goblin underling than a Thrannish anything. That humans are contesting ownership of ruins and sites does not immediately translate into culture wars either. It simply means that one group or the other wants that land for any or all of a plethora of possible reasons. Including cultural identification. Well respected scholars in prominent universities specialize in Dhakaani ways and history. You don't do that as anything more than a fringe interest if you don't identify with the culture in question. Your entire point rests on racist schism between the Lhazaar humans and their goblin enemies. That is proven to be a false concern. Khorvairians do not discriminate race as much as they do land and nationality.
Edymnion 03-28-07, 02:17 PM	It should be pointed out that Sarlonan basically is Old Common. Its what the first wave of human immigrants coming from Sarlona spoke, and its what later evolved into Common.
Yakman 03-28-07, 03:30 PM	2. Their enemies were the tribal goblins who bear little to no resemblance to their glorious forebears. So how would the ancient institutions of the pre-Galifaran humans pick up on Dhakaani and then use it to build their own nations? They aren't going to borrow laws or culture from degenerated goblinoid tribes. 3. There isn't any "great demand" for Sarlonan goods in general in Khorvaire. What interest there is is for raw materials or for extremely exotic items (that are seen as alien). Whatever Sarlona was like when Lhazaar left, Reidra is almost completely alien compared to it. Re-read the Syrkarn entry. It states specifically that Syrk goods are in higher demand in Khorvaire than Riedran ones because they retain the pre-Riedran patterns and styles--which co-incidentally would be the ones that Lhazar and her people would have brought with them. Khorvairians are ALSO goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. These races have greater numbers in Darguun, but they can be found in the Five Nations. Many of the workers in Sharn's bowels are goblins. A Brelish craftsman or any race would have a great deal more fondness for his goblin underling than a Thrannish anything. certainly--because that goblin underling has been so beaten down that he doesn't have any power--the Thranish can (and have) fight back. The goblin himself does not identify with dhakaan... and if he did, I doubt the Brelander's opinion would remain so favorable. Moreover, your example shows that the local identification is paramount--people identify as Brelanders, Thranes, etc.. This is despite 900 years of unity under Galifar. Including cultural identification. Well respected scholars in prominent universities specialize in Dhakaani ways and history. You don't do that as anything more than a fringe interest if you don't identify with the culture in question. Not true at all. You can study something without identifying with it. You've only proven that there is some interest in Dhakaani history, not that the 5N see themselves as heirs to their legacy. Your entire point rests on racist schism between the Lhazaar humans and their goblin enemies. That is proven to be a false concern. Khorvairians do not discriminate race as much as they do land and nationality. My point rests on a history of antagonism between the human, gnomish, elven, and dwarven races and the goblinoids. People who are busy massacring each other--for whatever reason--are not likely to look kindly on their enemy's social orders or histories. The primary point of the thread is what is the cultural equivalent of Latin on Khorvaire--and the societal mechanisms that built Galifar and continue in the 5N were formed not from the structures of the Dhakaani but from new forces created by the Sarlonan refugees and the demihumans who they co-opted. Finally, we can see that not even the mainstream hobgoblins who rule Darguun are interested in a new 'Dhakaan'.. Haruuc whatshisname certainly isn't--the only ones who are are his enemies, the dhakaani holdout clans in the mountains. If the marjority of modern Hobgoblins who built Dhakaan are not interested in its legacy, then I very much doubt that the descendants of the humans who swept the remannts of that empire into the dark corners of the continent are too keen on it either.
Euangelion 03-28-07, 03:41 PM	I wonder if pre-Inspired Sarlona even had a single language that could be considered "Old Common." However, judging by the Speak Language table in the ECS, Riedran uses what is called the "Old Common" alphabet (I think it's hilarious that the word "alphabet" is really just the names of the first two letters of the Greek alphabet. Maybe English should call its alphabet the "aybee"!) One possibility is that several languages adopted a single alphabet (perhaps the first alphabet to be developed on Sarlona) to render their words phonetically, while maintaining their distinct syntax. Thus early Khorvaire Common would appear to be similar to modern Riedran but in fact be very different grammatically, and the earliest writings of the humans of the Shadow Marches representing a distinct third tradition. I could see House Tharashk in particular bringing some early Riedran words into modern Common. Some influences on those proto-Common languages of Sarlona might be Giant (ogres and half-giants) and Draconic (couatl and Shulassakar), though each of those languages would have been preserved intact as well, especially through the ogre nation (too lazy to look it up now) and those practicing arcane magic respectively. Throw in some early Dwarven, and you're set.
goblin_pride 03-28-07, 03:43 PM	Including cultural identification. Well respected scholars in prominent universities specialize in Dhakaani ways and history. You don't do that as anything more than a fringe interest if you don't identify with the culture in question. Then it could be said that Mayan, Inca, Aztec, Mondol, Vandal, Chinese, Illyrian, Persian, Cimmerian*, Greek, Lydian, Viking, or even Songhai are just as important and as widely used in western culture because studying them isn't just some "passing fad", eh? Following your thinking, we should be using Egyptian words for our legal system and medical jargon, because there are far more egyptologists than there are experts in the Roman empire. If that's true, why aren't all our modern legal and medical terms expressed using nordic or germanic words? If you take the time to actually look at English history specifically and then examine where the various invaders came from over that island's long history, you'll find it would be more appropriate to use germanic or nordic languages instead of Latin. Let's do this for a moment, shall we? We have the Celts, the Picts, the Romans, the Angles, the Jutes, the Franks, the Saxons, the Norse, the Normans, the Danes and a smattering of Viking raids from all of the Nordic countries interspersed from around 800 CE** to 1100 CE. And if you want to use the "the Roman empire was so large" argument, it's foolish, look at the map of europe and start marking off all the places the Vikings managed to reach over the course of their unnumbered thousand journeys. The only possible reason besides one of pure racism against what were perceived as "barbaric" people, is the Catholic Church. Conveniently enough, it was that same institution that was the target for the bulk of the raids for spoils during the earlier days of the Viking period. A bit of a nice coincidence there, eh? Your entire point rests on racist schism between the Lhazaar humans and their goblin enemies. That is proven to be a false concern. Khorvairians do not discriminate race as much as they do land and nationality. How is it proven to be a false concern? You'll find that the Dhakaani were a seperate nation from the ones that sprang up after the humans began settling in over the bones of the empire. A new nation clinging to the culture of one that used to exist, all the while keeping as slaves the people that built that glorious ancient civilization? Yeah, right, go ahead and pull the other one or I'm never gonna be able to stand up straight again. It's foolish to assume that the Humans building Galifar would want to glorify the empire that used to exist and seems to have been built by the people they are now keeping as slaves. The cultural bias may have been introduced for any number of reasons, but I would imagine that first and foremost it would've been a justification for keeping their workforce in chains. *Yes, there was a Cimmeria, it didn't just exist as a homeland for Conan in fiction. It was a kingdom in the area around Greece, prior to the Hellenistic period. The Cimmerian kingdom lasted through a grand total of two rulers, father and son and was gone before the second king's body was even cold. ** I use the more appropriate CE (Current Era) as opposed to the out-dated and culturally biased AD (Anno Domini). I realize it's a bit of a hollow gesture to substitute one for the other simply to omit the Latin "in the year of our lord", but I'm finding more and more historians are beginning to do so, even though the switch from BCE to CE is still the same as the switch from BC to AD. Historians are beginning to understand that in order to remove themselves from the cultural bias, they have to begin removing the bias in the terms they use when presenting what they do have as fact.
goblin_pride 03-28-07, 03:48 PM	One possibility is that several languages adopted a single alphabet (perhaps the first alphabet to be developed on Sarlona) to render their words phonetically, while maintaining their distinct syntax. Somewhat like the Chinese script, eh?
Yakman 03-28-07, 04:56 PM	And if you want to use the "the Roman empire was so large" argument, it's foolish, look at the map of europe and start marking off all the places the Vikings managed to reach over the course of their unnumbered thousand journeys. The Vikings reached a number of places, certainly, but their impact in most of them was arson and theft. Those Vikings who DID settle down usually assimilated into the local culture--the Normans were speaking French when they invaded England, only a few generations after settling down. The Rus were speaking slavonic tongues a generation or two after conquering Russia, while the Norse in Ireland assimilated as Gaels. They brought nothing that would convince the locals to begin speaking their language--unlike the Romans, Greeks, Arabs, English, Chinese, French, etc. who managed to bring subjugated people into their linguistic orbit. The only possible reason besides one of pure racism against what were perceived as "barbaric" people, is the Catholic Church. Conveniently enough, it was that same institution that was the target for the bulk of the raids for spoils during the earlier days of the Viking period. A bit of a nice coincidence there, eh? Because the Church was the only institution that existed in Western Europe that had any wealth at the time. You wanna steal, you take from people who HAVE THINGS. The Vikings, btw, were raiding Orthodox Byzantium, pagan Russia, and Mohammedan Iran at the same time as they were terrorizing western europe. they were equal opportunity thieves. How is it proven to be a false concern? You'll find that the Dhakaani were a seperate nation from the ones that sprang up after the humans began settling in over the bones of the empire. A new nation clinging to the culture of one that used to exist, all the while keeping as slaves the people that built that glorious ancient civilization? Yeah, right, go ahead and pull the other one or I'm never gonna be able to stand up straight again. It's foolish to assume that the Humans building Galifar would want to glorify the empire that used to exist and seems to have been built by the people they are now keeping as slaves. The cultural bias may have been introduced for any number of reasons, but I would imagine that first and foremost it would've been a justification for keeping their workforce in chains. Agreed. Keep them down, keep them sweeping the streets. *Yes, there was a Cimmeria, it didn't just exist as a homeland for Conan in fiction. It was a kingdom in the area around Greece, prior to the Hellenistic period. The Cimmerian kingdom lasted through a grand total of two rulers, father and son and was gone before the second king's body was even cold. There was another Cimmeria--one that lasted far longer--along the Black Sea. ** I use the more appropriate CE (Current Era) as opposed to the out-dated and culturally biased AD (Anno Domini). I realize it's a bit of a hollow gesture to substitute one for the other simply to omit the Latin "in the year of our lord", but I'm finding more and more historians are beginning to do so, even though the switch from BCE to CE is still the same as the switch from BC to AD. Historians are beginning to understand that in order to remove themselves from the cultural bias, they have to begin removing the bias in the terms they use when presenting what they do have as fact.Because CE mirrors AD in every way, what's the point in deluding yourself into thinking that you've detached from your cultural bias?
goblin_pride 03-28-07, 05:05 PM	Because CE mirrors AD in every way, what's the point in deluding yourself into thinking that you've detached from your cultural bias? It takes time to make sweeping changes. Fully detaching from the cultural bias begins with changing the names, we'll get around to the calendars in due time.
Yakman 03-28-07, 05:24 PM	It takes time to make sweeping changes. Fully detaching from the cultural bias begins with changing the names, we'll get around to the calendars in due time. It'll never, ever happen. No one will be able to agree to a common starting point for the calendar.