Cunductor Stones + Mine Cart = Craziness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cunductor Stones + Mine Cart = Craziness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Majorafire77
07-23-05, 10:57 PM So, I'm planning on running an adventure in the Graywall Mountains concluding with a wild mine cart chase/battle scene at the end. The problem is that I really don't know how fast a Mine Cart would go on a line of conductor stones if the lightning rail goes 30 mph. The ECS only has the following to say on the matter:
Smaller vehicles incorporating conductor stones can often attain high rates of speed, but are prone to mishap without the great weight of a lightning rail coach counteracting the repulsion effect of the conductor stones.
If the Mine Cart is going way too fast to work out well, is there any way that I could slow it down (spreading out the conductor stones or something like that)?

Also, if one of my players decides to use a Magic Missile spell (or something like that) to destroy conductor stones in front of the opponent's mine cart, would the opponent get some sort of whiplash effect when their speeding cart due to a sudden stop, or would the cart gradually slow down when not connected to the line of stones?

Any ideas would be nice.
Gurv
07-23-05, 11:20 PM Everyone is going to tell you one thing about the speed of such a cart: "all forms of transportation on Eberron move at the speed of plot". Since you can put in all the uphills and downhills you want, you can make the cart go whatever speed best fits the scene you envision.

It sounds to me like you have an excellent scene in mind. Don't let some stupid rules ruin for you: you know this scene can happen, so there is no reason to let anyone say it can't. I would recommend that the cart be moving somewhere between 200-400 feet per round. But what will really matter is whether one cart is moving faster than another, and by how much. Anyone who falls off is going to take some serious damage unless you provide a reason why not (water below, something to grap onto, etc.) and be left far behind.

Your idea of spreading the conductor stones out sounds like a perfectly plausible reason for a cart to move slower. Use that.

Magic missiles can't hurt conductor stones, because magic missiles can't target objects. And safety measures for lightning rail technology is being improved all the time, with some of the older devices being terribly dangerous and some of the newer ones have fantastic protection. If they're using something older, it might not be very safe (it's entirely up to the DM to do whatever fits the story best). And who knows? Maybe conductor stones have very high hardness and hit points, rendering this option unviable.

Basically, don't look for how it works. Decide how it works, and then come up with a reason why. DMing the other way works too, but isn't nearly as interesting.
Majorafire77
07-23-05, 11:38 PM Alright, thanks a lot for your advice.
Edymnion
07-23-05, 11:54 PM Yes, you'd need a spell that can target objects to damage a conductor stone.

One other thing to remember, the propulsion effect for the lightning rail has nothing to do with the conductor stones. They are just the tracks. The ENTIRE ability for the lightning rail to move forwards comes from the fact that there is an elementally bound car (the engine) pulling the others, or possibly that EVERY car has a bound elemental in it to keep it on the track and moving.

It sounds like a good scene, but those are going to be some really expensive mine carts...
Bluebrush
07-24-05, 08:04 AM Another thing to consider: Do you really need lightning mine carts?

The mine cart operates on the same basic idea as a train, with a standardised axle and rail width, yes, but it doesn't need expensive propulsion when you have miners/horses/working class teenagers with no labour rights to move them.

So in the mines of Khorvaire, maybe they do have long lines of railway track, just for mine carts rather than trains.
Gurv
07-24-05, 10:23 AM One other thing to remember, the propulsion effect for the lightning rail has nothing to do with the conductor stones. They are just the tracks.

It sounds like a good scene, but those are going to be some really expensive mine carts...
On the flip side of that coin, the weight of a lightning rail and the cargo it must be able to pull is massive. It needs the power of an elemental to pull it. But something smaller and lighter might not need that much power, and could instead be propelled by much lesser magics. I also see no reason why the carts need their own propulsion system any more than real-world carts did.

There are a lot of ways to make this scene make sense, monetarily. Lightning rail technology is simply better than railroad tracks, because you have less grading to worry about, and it seems likely that conductor stones are easier to remove and re-lay elsewhere than miles of track. That makes it cheaper in the long run. If whatever is being mined is especially valuable, then no reason not to spend the money to get it to the surface ASAP.

Now, the way to do magical-mining on a budget works the way my own PCs decided to do it (they're just moving stone though). Hire a few magewrights and provide them with an eternal wand of floating disk. With a caster level of six, it costs 4,420 gold pieces and allows a single worker to move 600lbs at his normal movement rate, for up to 12 hours each day. Alternatively, two magewrights can share the eternal wand.
Majorafire77
07-24-05, 06:30 PM Another thing to consider: Do you really need lightning mine carts?

The mine cart operates on the same basic idea as a train, with a standardised axle and rail width, yes, but it doesn't need expensive propulsion when you have miners/horses/working class teenagers with no labour rights to move them.

So in the mines of Khorvaire, maybe they do have long lines of railway track, just for mine carts rather than trains.
Well, I figured that my whole idea of a wild chase through the mountain depths with a Kobold Sorcerer flinging Magic Missiles back at the PC's mine cart wouldn't be nearly as kickass if there were horses or teenage slaves pulling the carts. But that's just me :P

As for the propulsion, it turns out that Edy is right. Instead of elementally bound carts, I'm thinking about attaching miniature windsails (sails with a permanent gust of wind cast on them, presented in part 2 of the Lhazaar Principalities Dragonshard) instead, which wouldn't make it go as fast as if it were elementally bound, but still fast enough for high-speed action.
Edymnion
07-24-05, 07:42 PM Well, this image makes me rather leary of the prospect of anything actually pushing/pulling the carts...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90011.jpg
Its titled "Lightning Rail Arc", and it was schedualed for Five Nations.
Maybe it'll make it into the Explorer's Handbook.
Bluebrush
07-24-05, 09:30 PM Well, I figured that my whole idea of a wild chase through the mountain depths with a Kobold Sorcerer flinging Magic Missiles back at the PC's mine cart wouldn't be nearly as kickass if there were horses or teenage slaves pulling the carts. But that's just me :P

The point was that carts can serve their purpose without magic.

And I was under the impression there'd be some kind of downhill acceleration to make the carts move without teen-power.
Majorafire77
07-24-05, 10:15 PM Well, this image makes me rather leary of the prospect of anything actually pushing/pulling the carts...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90011.jpg
Its titled "Lightning Rail Arc", and it was schedualed for Five Nations.
Maybe it'll make it into the Explorer's Handbook.
Well, I still need to develop the actual adventure, I just knew that I wanted that to be the ending. There'll probably be plenty of time for me to change around what makes the carts move, just in case something is released in the EH.

I'm confused as to why you think that way though. What does the electricity arc have to do with what makes a lightning rail / mine cart move along the conductor stone track?

The point was that carts can serve their purpose without magic.

And I was under the impression there'd be some kind of downhill acceleration to make the carts move without teen-power.
Meh, magic makes everything more exciting.
Edymnion
07-24-05, 10:56 PM I'm confused as to why you think that way though. What does the electricity arc have to do with what makes a lightning rail / mine cart move along the conductor stone track?No, I mean it has something to do with you would still need some kind of magic to move the cart, you couldn't just push it along yourself. Otherwise *zap!*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majorafire77 07-23-05, 10:57 PM	So, I'm planning on running an adventure in the Graywall Mountains concluding with a wild mine cart chase/battle scene at the end. The problem is that I really don't know how fast a Mine Cart would go on a line of conductor stones if the lightning rail goes 30 mph. The ECS only has the following to say on the matter: Smaller vehicles incorporating conductor stones can often attain high rates of speed, but are prone to mishap without the great weight of a lightning rail coach counteracting the repulsion effect of the conductor stones. If the Mine Cart is going way too fast to work out well, is there any way that I could slow it down (spreading out the conductor stones or something like that)? Also, if one of my players decides to use a Magic Missile spell (or something like that) to destroy conductor stones in front of the opponent's mine cart, would the opponent get some sort of whiplash effect when their speeding cart due to a sudden stop, or would the cart gradually slow down when not connected to the line of stones? Any ideas would be nice.
Gurv 07-23-05, 11:20 PM	Everyone is going to tell you one thing about the speed of such a cart: "all forms of transportation on Eberron move at the speed of plot". Since you can put in all the uphills and downhills you want, you can make the cart go whatever speed best fits the scene you envision. It sounds to me like you have an excellent scene in mind. Don't let some stupid rules ruin for you: you know this scene can happen, so there is no reason to let anyone say it can't. I would recommend that the cart be moving somewhere between 200-400 feet per round. But what will really matter is whether one cart is moving faster than another, and by how much. Anyone who falls off is going to take some serious damage unless you provide a reason why not (water below, something to grap onto, etc.) and be left far behind. Your idea of spreading the conductor stones out sounds like a perfectly plausible reason for a cart to move slower. Use that. Magic missiles can't hurt conductor stones, because magic missiles can't target objects. And safety measures for lightning rail technology is being improved all the time, with some of the older devices being terribly dangerous and some of the newer ones have fantastic protection. If they're using something older, it might not be very safe (it's entirely up to the DM to do whatever fits the story best). And who knows? Maybe conductor stones have very high hardness and hit points, rendering this option unviable. Basically, don't look for how it works. Decide how it works, and then come up with a reason why. DMing the other way works too, but isn't nearly as interesting.
Majorafire77 07-23-05, 11:38 PM	Alright, thanks a lot for your advice.
Edymnion 07-23-05, 11:54 PM	Yes, you'd need a spell that can target objects to damage a conductor stone. One other thing to remember, the propulsion effect for the lightning rail has nothing to do with the conductor stones. They are just the tracks. The ENTIRE ability for the lightning rail to move forwards comes from the fact that there is an elementally bound car (the engine) pulling the others, or possibly that EVERY car has a bound elemental in it to keep it on the track and moving. It sounds like a good scene, but those are going to be some really expensive mine carts...
Bluebrush 07-24-05, 08:04 AM	Another thing to consider: Do you really need lightning mine carts? The mine cart operates on the same basic idea as a train, with a standardised axle and rail width, yes, but it doesn't need expensive propulsion when you have miners/horses/working class teenagers with no labour rights to move them. So in the mines of Khorvaire, maybe they do have long lines of railway track, just for mine carts rather than trains.
Gurv 07-24-05, 10:23 AM	One other thing to remember, the propulsion effect for the lightning rail has nothing to do with the conductor stones. They are just the tracks. It sounds like a good scene, but those are going to be some really expensive mine carts... On the flip side of that coin, the weight of a lightning rail and the cargo it must be able to pull is massive. It needs the power of an elemental to pull it. But something smaller and lighter might not need that much power, and could instead be propelled by much lesser magics. I also see no reason why the carts need their own propulsion system any more than real-world carts did. There are a lot of ways to make this scene make sense, monetarily. Lightning rail technology is simply better than railroad tracks, because you have less grading to worry about, and it seems likely that conductor stones are easier to remove and re-lay elsewhere than miles of track. That makes it cheaper in the long run. If whatever is being mined is especially valuable, then no reason not to spend the money to get it to the surface ASAP. Now, the way to do magical-mining on a budget works the way my own PCs decided to do it (they're just moving stone though). Hire a few magewrights and provide them with an eternal wand of floating disk. With a caster level of six, it costs 4,420 gold pieces and allows a single worker to move 600lbs at his normal movement rate, for up to 12 hours each day. Alternatively, two magewrights can share the eternal wand.
Majorafire77 07-24-05, 06:30 PM	Another thing to consider: Do you really need lightning mine carts? The mine cart operates on the same basic idea as a train, with a standardised axle and rail width, yes, but it doesn't need expensive propulsion when you have miners/horses/working class teenagers with no labour rights to move them. So in the mines of Khorvaire, maybe they do have long lines of railway track, just for mine carts rather than trains. Well, I figured that my whole idea of a wild chase through the mountain depths with a Kobold Sorcerer flinging Magic Missiles back at the PC's mine cart wouldn't be nearly as kickass if there were horses or teenage slaves pulling the carts. But that's just me :P As for the propulsion, it turns out that Edy is right. Instead of elementally bound carts, I'm thinking about attaching miniature windsails (sails with a permanent gust of wind cast on them, presented in part 2 of the Lhazaar Principalities Dragonshard) instead, which wouldn't make it go as fast as if it were elementally bound, but still fast enough for high-speed action.
Edymnion 07-24-05, 07:42 PM	Well, this image makes me rather leary of the prospect of anything actually pushing/pulling the carts... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90011.jpg Its titled "Lightning Rail Arc", and it was schedualed for Five Nations. Maybe it'll make it into the Explorer's Handbook.
Bluebrush 07-24-05, 09:30 PM	Well, I figured that my whole idea of a wild chase through the mountain depths with a Kobold Sorcerer flinging Magic Missiles back at the PC's mine cart wouldn't be nearly as kickass if there were horses or teenage slaves pulling the carts. But that's just me :P The point was that carts can serve their purpose without magic. And I was under the impression there'd be some kind of downhill acceleration to make the carts move without teen-power.
Majorafire77 07-24-05, 10:15 PM	Well, this image makes me rather leary of the prospect of anything actually pushing/pulling the carts... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90011.jpg Its titled "Lightning Rail Arc", and it was schedualed for Five Nations. Maybe it'll make it into the Explorer's Handbook. Well, I still need to develop the actual adventure, I just knew that I wanted that to be the ending. There'll probably be plenty of time for me to change around what makes the carts move, just in case something is released in the EH. I'm confused as to why you think that way though. What does the electricity arc have to do with what makes a lightning rail / mine cart move along the conductor stone track? The point was that carts can serve their purpose without magic. And I was under the impression there'd be some kind of downhill acceleration to make the carts move without teen-power. Meh, magic makes everything more exciting.
Edymnion 07-24-05, 10:56 PM	I'm confused as to why you think that way though. What does the electricity arc have to do with what makes a lightning rail / mine cart move along the conductor stone track?No, I mean it has something to do with you would still need some kind of magic to move the cart, you couldn't just push it along yourself. Otherwise zap!