Curiosity Killed the Cat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Curiosity Killed the Cat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nature-boy
02-01-05, 08:43 PM Okay guys, I've got a PC who loves Eberron and his character. Thing is, he may love it too much. He spends his time soaking up as much as he can find about the organizations he's in and anything that that organization is linked to. Then I fear he'll research those.

My main issue here is that I feel that he may stumble across something that may spoil a piece of Eberron for him. I want Eberron to be surprising when the pulp/noir kicks in. And if he knows a secret about an organization, he won't feel the kick that the rest of the PCs will.

I've asked him not to read the ECS and stay off the boards, and he says he'll be careful not to find anything of value, but there is always a chance of stumbling across some spoilers. He came close last night at my house. Now he's excited about the new Eberron novels coming out and I know there'll be something crazy in there.

So I ask you, how do you all deal with PCs and their curiosity? Should I just throw him the book and let him go? Or should I continue to preserve his "Eberron virginity" so that he may experience betrayal, action, and intrigue at their best?
zambuka
02-01-05, 09:11 PM Change things.

For example: the Aurum with their 8 rings. You may want to change things so the identification and levels withing the organisation are different. Say they only wear 2 rings, the lowest level is 2 copper rings, then a copper and a silver, then 2 silver, then a silver and gold etc. Members wearing the 8 rings are only just part of a front organisation and don't really have any power or knowledge of the inner workings. the truth of the organisation may be that they are dragon blooded descendants from the line of Vol but are completely unable to manifest a dragon mark (those genetics are no longer part of their family)

or with vampires: in order to destroy a vampire you must drive a dragon shard through each eye rather than a wooden stake through the heart.

Leave the player to find out all the info they want. When he complains that it isn't the way it is meant to be then you can reply with "Aaah but what you thought is what the average joe on the street thinks about x"

Change things, add your own flavour to the game, you will enjoy it even more.
Cloud Divider
02-01-05, 09:14 PM So I ask you, how do you all deal with PCs and their curiosity? Should I just throw him the book and let him go? Or should I continue to preserve his "Eberron virginity" so that he may experience betrayal, action, and intrigue at their best?
That's a tough one. On the one hand, a player with a good handle on the setting can be really useful for a number of reasons. His character concept will hopefully be a better mesh with the setting; he'll understand the setting better, so his character will be able to interact more "realistically." His enthusiasm is likely to be contagious among the other players.

On the downside, yeah, if he's really well read on the setting (ie he's read Sharn and devours everything else he can get his hands on), you're kinda hosed when it comes to wanting to pull some of the surprises ("Oh! So so-and-so was actually a member of the such-and-such. Yeah, I remember reading about that...". That is, unless you build your own surprises... Eberron's certainly flexible enough for that.

As another upside, if you've got one of those golden players, you could essentially use him as a plant in your gaming audience - he can help steer the party in certain ways, in order to make things more interesting. But he'd need to be one of those guys who not only doesn't use OOC info to his benefit, but is willing to use that same OOC info to his (or the group's) disadvantage because that would tell a better story.

I'm kinda struggling with that myself for my pending Eberron campaign. I'm personally leaning towards wishing my players all had at least a reasonable understanding of the setting to work from...

So maybe just warn your guy that while it's really cool that he's so enthusiastic about the setting, he's risking losing the "oomph" of any surprises...
Edymnion
02-01-05, 10:52 PM It all boils down to one thing really.
Do you trust him?

Do you trust that he will be able to read whatever he wants (really, you can't stop him, you can ask him not to, but punishing in game for reading a book is not cool), and not let it affect how he plays his character?

Or do you not trust him, and think that he will metagame?

Personally, I only play with people I can trust not to screw things up with rampant metagaming. All of the people I play with would be able to know that the Blood of Vol's leader was an evil lich, but they would still be able to play their characters as if it were a surprise.

I find that reading the little "secrets" of the setting as present just go a long ways to making the setting that much more cool, when you know that everywhere you look, things are not as they seem.

And really, since he's going to read it anyway (again, you can't stop him, and doing something like saying he can't play because he read them would just be you making an ass of yourself), if he starts metagaming, use it against him. Throw in scenarios that the rest of the party doesn't know whats happening, but that sound like they're something he's read. Then, when it all goes down, you pull the old 180 on him. Make it sound like the Blood of Vol is pulling the strings, then at the last moment yank it around to be the Dragons.
Nature-boy
02-02-05, 01:34 PM Thanks guys, your input really helps. :)
Sharn Inquisitor
02-02-05, 01:55 PM I've had to deal with this on my end and can truthfully state that the whole issue of trust is where it stands. My own players are good folks and I trust them not to spoil the game for themselves. I call them out in session if I feel like they are meta-gaming and most of the time they agree and apologize.

The ECS says that it's for players and DM's so telling this guy to stay out isn't cool. My own players are really beginning to pick up the regional stereotypes and it really helps to add flavor and dimension.

The easiest way I deal with them knowing too much is make something appear one way and end up being another. I give them a whole bunch of clues to one affect, making them think a certain way and that they are all-knowing and then execute a plausible trick. They secretly love it.
Gurv
02-02-05, 02:18 PM I would use a combination of those techniques. I have several players with access to a ECS, and I plan on having their characters be the ones 'in the know', members of knowledgable organizations. The other players will have to have some reason not to know everything, or at least not know the details.

I have warned all the players who have the ECS that all the information they have may or may not be true. Rumors, half-truths, stories, etc. I plan to use their knowledge to my advantage. I will finally be able to run a game where not every third person knows exactly what happens when a person dies, for example. Knowing that the Speaker of the Flame is a child pawn unaware of the corruption around her may or may not be the result of the rumor mill. The Blood of Vol? There are so many crazy rumors there that I won't know where to start. But I will tell my players that they know nothing about a lich, and even if they did, it is pure rumor.

If the players don't know something from personal experince, then it is subject to change. Currently, I have the idea that both the quori and daelkyr invasions were caused by overuse of an ancient portal network that broke down the planar fabric and drew the attention of those outsiders. That might change as time progresses, and I won't be held to anything until the characters have iron-clad proof of such a thing. Every once in a while, have an NPC tell them a complete whopper, just so they know not everything they hear is true.

But in general, knowing as much about the setting as possible is good. It sets the flavor. I don't really plan on running a game that revolves around Kaius, or Vol, or any of those things. The information on the Aurum merely says that they are willing to manipulate anything for money. I don't mind if the players know that. My plots may make mention of Kaius, Vol, or the Aurum...but the goal won't be to defeat them outright, so keeping metagame knowledge where it should be shouldn't be a problem.

If a player randomly, halfway through The Forgotten Forge, decides that his goal in life is to expose Mordain the Fleshweaver, then I may have some issues. And he won't have much by the way of XP.
Streamweaver
02-02-05, 03:01 PM I'm not sure keeping a player from materials they are interested in is the way to go. You have to really examine what you're trying to accomplish here. If you just want the player to have the most fun, shouldn't they be the judge of what is more fun for them? It sounds like it's possible you're trying to control his experience for your own enjoyment and it's not that you want him to experience eberron but you experience relating it to him. Not that it's a bad thing to do, but if what we're really talking about how you would enjoy it being played out veruses what the player would like to do, you have to allow them to have some fun as well.

My advice is let them read whatever they want as long as it's not modules or threads you are posting plots in. Then use Eberron as you like, you are the DM and take the book as suggestion only. If the player is bad about metagaming then talk to them or change things up.
m15a
02-02-05, 03:18 PM i think you should tell him your opinions, and then let him choose. if he's too immature not to "cheat" then you can consider either changing things up or disallowing some stuff, but otherwise give him the benefit of the doubt. advise him that he might be losing out on some of the surprise aspect, but it's up to him.

in general, i think if he's interested in reading the book, you shouldn't stop him. that's just a lot of fun you'd be depriving him of. (assuming he'd like the book.)

another productive way to deal with one character having a lot of out of game knowledge (and more than the other players), is to suggest the player's character be someone who would know a little bit more than others. like, have them play a bard (someone with bardic knowledge), or someone with a lot of knowledge ranks, especially in knowledge (local). then if something slips out, it's kinda justified.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nature-boy 02-01-05, 08:43 PM	Okay guys, I've got a PC who loves Eberron and his character. Thing is, he may love it too much. He spends his time soaking up as much as he can find about the organizations he's in and anything that that organization is linked to. Then I fear he'll research those. My main issue here is that I feel that he may stumble across something that may spoil a piece of Eberron for him. I want Eberron to be surprising when the pulp/noir kicks in. And if he knows a secret about an organization, he won't feel the kick that the rest of the PCs will. I've asked him not to read the ECS and stay off the boards, and he says he'll be careful not to find anything of value, but there is always a chance of stumbling across some spoilers. He came close last night at my house. Now he's excited about the new Eberron novels coming out and I know there'll be something crazy in there. So I ask you, how do you all deal with PCs and their curiosity? Should I just throw him the book and let him go? Or should I continue to preserve his "Eberron virginity" so that he may experience betrayal, action, and intrigue at their best?
zambuka 02-01-05, 09:11 PM	Change things. For example: the Aurum with their 8 rings. You may want to change things so the identification and levels withing the organisation are different. Say they only wear 2 rings, the lowest level is 2 copper rings, then a copper and a silver, then 2 silver, then a silver and gold etc. Members wearing the 8 rings are only just part of a front organisation and don't really have any power or knowledge of the inner workings. the truth of the organisation may be that they are dragon blooded descendants from the line of Vol but are completely unable to manifest a dragon mark (those genetics are no longer part of their family) or with vampires: in order to destroy a vampire you must drive a dragon shard through each eye rather than a wooden stake through the heart. Leave the player to find out all the info they want. When he complains that it isn't the way it is meant to be then you can reply with "Aaah but what you thought is what the average joe on the street thinks about x" Change things, add your own flavour to the game, you will enjoy it even more.
Cloud Divider 02-01-05, 09:14 PM	So I ask you, how do you all deal with PCs and their curiosity? Should I just throw him the book and let him go? Or should I continue to preserve his "Eberron virginity" so that he may experience betrayal, action, and intrigue at their best? That's a tough one. On the one hand, a player with a good handle on the setting can be really useful for a number of reasons. His character concept will hopefully be a better mesh with the setting; he'll understand the setting better, so his character will be able to interact more "realistically." His enthusiasm is likely to be contagious among the other players. On the downside, yeah, if he's really well read on the setting (ie he's read Sharn and devours everything else he can get his hands on), you're kinda hosed when it comes to wanting to pull some of the surprises ("Oh! So so-and-so was actually a member of the such-and-such. Yeah, I remember reading about that...". That is, unless you build your own surprises... Eberron's certainly flexible enough for that. As another upside, if you've got one of those golden players, you could essentially use him as a plant in your gaming audience - he can help steer the party in certain ways, in order to make things more interesting. But he'd need to be one of those guys who not only doesn't use OOC info to his benefit, but is willing to use that same OOC info to his (or the group's) disadvantage because that would tell a better story. I'm kinda struggling with that myself for my pending Eberron campaign. I'm personally leaning towards wishing my players all had at least a reasonable understanding of the setting to work from... So maybe just warn your guy that while it's really cool that he's so enthusiastic about the setting, he's risking losing the "oomph" of any surprises...
Edymnion 02-01-05, 10:52 PM	It all boils down to one thing really. Do you trust him? Do you trust that he will be able to read whatever he wants (really, you can't stop him, you can ask him not to, but punishing in game for reading a book is not cool), and not let it affect how he plays his character? Or do you not trust him, and think that he will metagame? Personally, I only play with people I can trust not to screw things up with rampant metagaming. All of the people I play with would be able to know that the Blood of Vol's leader was an evil lich, but they would still be able to play their characters as if it were a surprise. I find that reading the little "secrets" of the setting as present just go a long ways to making the setting that much more cool, when you know that everywhere you look, things are not as they seem. And really, since he's going to read it anyway (again, you can't stop him, and doing something like saying he can't play because he read them would just be you making an ass of yourself), if he starts metagaming, use it against him. Throw in scenarios that the rest of the party doesn't know whats happening, but that sound like they're something he's read. Then, when it all goes down, you pull the old 180 on him. Make it sound like the Blood of Vol is pulling the strings, then at the last moment yank it around to be the Dragons.
Nature-boy 02-02-05, 01:34 PM	Thanks guys, your input really helps. :)
Sharn Inquisitor 02-02-05, 01:55 PM	I've had to deal with this on my end and can truthfully state that the whole issue of trust is where it stands. My own players are good folks and I trust them not to spoil the game for themselves. I call them out in session if I feel like they are meta-gaming and most of the time they agree and apologize. The ECS says that it's for players and DM's so telling this guy to stay out isn't cool. My own players are really beginning to pick up the regional stereotypes and it really helps to add flavor and dimension. The easiest way I deal with them knowing too much is make something appear one way and end up being another. I give them a whole bunch of clues to one affect, making them think a certain way and that they are all-knowing and then execute a plausible trick. They secretly love it.
Gurv 02-02-05, 02:18 PM	I would use a combination of those techniques. I have several players with access to a ECS, and I plan on having their characters be the ones 'in the know', members of knowledgable organizations. The other players will have to have some reason not to know everything, or at least not know the details. I have warned all the players who have the ECS that all the information they have may or may not be true. Rumors, half-truths, stories, etc. I plan to use their knowledge to my advantage. I will finally be able to run a game where not every third person knows exactly what happens when a person dies, for example. Knowing that the Speaker of the Flame is a child pawn unaware of the corruption around her may or may not be the result of the rumor mill. The Blood of Vol? There are so many crazy rumors there that I won't know where to start. But I will tell my players that they know nothing about a lich, and even if they did, it is pure rumor. If the players don't know something from personal experince, then it is subject to change. Currently, I have the idea that both the quori and daelkyr invasions were caused by overuse of an ancient portal network that broke down the planar fabric and drew the attention of those outsiders. That might change as time progresses, and I won't be held to anything until the characters have iron-clad proof of such a thing. Every once in a while, have an NPC tell them a complete whopper, just so they know not everything they hear is true. But in general, knowing as much about the setting as possible is good. It sets the flavor. I don't really plan on running a game that revolves around Kaius, or Vol, or any of those things. The information on the Aurum merely says that they are willing to manipulate anything for money. I don't mind if the players know that. My plots may make mention of Kaius, Vol, or the Aurum...but the goal won't be to defeat them outright, so keeping metagame knowledge where it should be shouldn't be a problem. If a player randomly, halfway through The Forgotten Forge, decides that his goal in life is to expose Mordain the Fleshweaver, then I may have some issues. And he won't have much by the way of XP.
Streamweaver 02-02-05, 03:01 PM	I'm not sure keeping a player from materials they are interested in is the way to go. You have to really examine what you're trying to accomplish here. If you just want the player to have the most fun, shouldn't they be the judge of what is more fun for them? It sounds like it's possible you're trying to control his experience for your own enjoyment and it's not that you want him to experience eberron but you experience relating it to him. Not that it's a bad thing to do, but if what we're really talking about how you would enjoy it being played out veruses what the player would like to do, you have to allow them to have some fun as well. My advice is let them read whatever they want as long as it's not modules or threads you are posting plots in. Then use Eberron as you like, you are the DM and take the book as suggestion only. If the player is bad about metagaming then talk to them or change things up.
m15a 02-02-05, 03:18 PM	i think you should tell him your opinions, and then let him choose. if he's too immature not to "cheat" then you can consider either changing things up or disallowing some stuff, but otherwise give him the benefit of the doubt. advise him that he might be losing out on some of the surprise aspect, but it's up to him. in general, i think if he's interested in reading the book, you shouldn't stop him. that's just a lot of fun you'd be depriving him of. (assuming he'd like the book.) another productive way to deal with one character having a lot of out of game knowledge (and more than the other players), is to suggest the player's character be someone who would know a little bit more than others. like, have them play a bard (someone with bardic knowledge), or someone with a lot of knowledge ranks, especially in knowledge (local). then if something slips out, it's kinda justified.