Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cloud Divider 02-03-05, 10:36 AM	I was reading through the ECS looking for some information on the nations in the title, while looking for some backstory for some NPCs, and had the following questions... Cyre originally controlled the territories that are now known as Darguun and Valenar, perhaps as early as YK 0, up through the Valenar "annexation" (YK 850-ish) and the Darguul rebellion (YK 869 or so?). Even if Cyre occupied those lands in say, YK 500, there's still essentially almost 400 years where the human nation had a presence in these lands. So what happened to that presence after the dates in question? Even if they were generally lightly populated, there would still have been pockets of significant non-Darguul/Valenar population (ie in the major trade hubs at the minimum; and certainly in the equivalent of a colonial center of the Cyran government). I'm a bit curious as to the total lack of any "human"-named settlements. Granted, maybe many of them were immediately renamed after the rebellions (or outright razed to ash, which makes some sense in Darguun). Was there a Cyran "evacuation" that took place once it looked like the Darguul/Valenar rebellions were not going to be successfully put down, rather like the French evacuation of Vietnam back in the 1960s? What happened to Cyrans that were left behind? Was it peaceful (possible in Valenar - "Renounce your ties to Cyre and remain here, or leave")? Was it bloody (likely in Darguun - I'm thinking of the various Colonial rebellions in our history, such as the British colonies in Africa)? In the case of Darguun, it seems likely that those unfortunate enough to not escape may have been held for ransom and/or pressed into slavery (if not killed outright). Maybe Lhesh Haruuc had hoped for slightly less brutality, but I rather doubt that he attained it in the areas he wasn't directly overseeing. One wonders what Cyre did to help those left behind (if anything). That might just be one of those dirty little political secrets ("We couldn't afford to pay all the ransoms, and with how the rest of the War was going, we couldn't dedicate any military assets to freeing them"). I'm not really looking for answers, just some discussion and idea-fodder... Ultimately, I'm toying around with a team of elite ex-Cyran covert agents and trying to figure out what they might be up to, and I'd like something rather more interesting than just being mercenaries. Plus, having a good motivation can really help make it possible to for the PC's to empathize with their actions... Also, as another interesting oddity I found looking at the timeline...The war really did last a literal 100 years (it started in 894, and the Day of Mourning was in 994). It might be interesting to take that not as mere coincidence, but as a sign that something was going on. Maybe a deal or pact of some sort...
Sharn Inquisitor 02-03-05, 10:44 AM	I am currently playing a Cyran who's backstory puts him as a former scout for the army. He detests the Darguul and Valenar squators and seeks to one day lead an army (sons and daughters of Cyre) to remove them from ancestral Cyran lands. As I understand, there are many Cyran farmers in Valenar that basically act as the basic structure of society to produce the food/needs of the Valenar warriors. They are likely very resentful of their status and view the Valenar as an occupational force that would be kindly removed. I imagine that in the cases of major human settlements not listed on the map is a result of the human's need to remain in low population, low profile in those lands...but they are there. In Darguun, I think most humans have either been taken as slaves or are tough enough to be left alone, but I doubt very much you'll be seeing any major settlements poping up, the goblinoids would meerly seek to wage war against them.
Alac Luin 02-03-05, 12:01 PM	I agree with Sharn Inquisitor. The humans in Dargun either fled, were killed, or keeping an extreamly low profile. Besides, if my memory serves me right, it was only about 1/3 of the land of Dargun was Cyre, the northern farmlands. In Valenar, many humans stayed, in small farming comunities. If you look at the racial breakdown of that nation, you will see 28% or the population is human, and 15% is Half-elfs, heck, full blooded elfs don't even make up the majority (48%).
Cloud Divider 02-03-05, 12:53 PM	I am currently playing a Cyran who's backstory puts him as a former scout for the army. He detests the Darguul and Valenar squators and seeks to one day lead an army (sons and daughters of Cyre) to remove them from ancestral Cyran lands. Yeah, that's roughly the idea I was working with for that covert agent team, though I think I was instead shooting for somewhere between directed terrorism and trying to provoke an out-and-out war between Valenar, Darguun, and the adjacent states (Breland, Zilargo) by taking out people on all sides (wipe out a Brelish town, blame it on the Darguun, raid a Darguul convoy under Zil colors, assassinate a Valenar diplomat while impersonating a Brelish agent, and so on). As I understand, there are many Cyran farmers in Valenar that basically act as the basic structure of society to produce the food/needs of the Valenar warriors. They are likely very resentful of their status and view the Valenar as an occupational force that would be kindly removed. Makes sense to me... But one of the things I was trying to get as is whether or not there are major Cyran populations in the major Valenar cities (like Valaes Taer or whatever it's called) as well. I imagine that in the cases of major human settlements not listed on the map is a result of the human's need to remain in low population, low profile in those lands...but they are there. Certainly. I'm not really concerned about the places that are too small/unimportant to not make the map. But given the history, I'd have expected to see either a few Ruin icons with Cyran names ("Fort Boondocky" or whatever), or trade hubs that still showed signs of the area being historically Galifarian (well, excepting the goblinoid component). In Darguun, I think most humans have either been taken as slaves or are tough enough to be left alone, but I doubt very much you'll be seeing any major settlements poping up, the goblinoids would meerly seek to wage war against them. I'm not really expecting them to be "popping up," but to have been already present... And actually, now that I think about it, I seem to recall something about Lhesh Haruuc's capital having more Galifarian-style architecture (plus, his capital building was made by Zil or Cannith engineers, wasn't it?). In other words, signs that Darguun spent 400+ years controlled by Galifar. Maybe it'd be as simple as having old maps of Darguun show the capital as being called Newhome (or whatever) than Rhukaan Draal (or whatever the city's name is - I don't have my book with me), or having NPCs reference Rhukaan Draal as "Old Newhome" or something similar. Ditto for the Valenar cities...
Alac Luin 02-03-05, 01:52 PM	... But one of the things I was trying to get as is whether or not there are major Cyran populations in the major Valenar cities (like Valaes Taer or whatever it's called) as well.... Probably not, not that humans don't exist there, but they are major elf cities, considering the militaristic nature of the elves, and racial pride, would see having large populations of humans as a weakness. A human enclave that can be easily locked up during a siege is extremely plausible. Certainly. I'm not really concerned about the places that are too small/unimportant to not make the map. But given the history, I'd have expected to see either a few Ruin icons with Cyran names ("Fort Boondocky" or whatever), or trade hubs that still showed signs of the area being historically Galifarian (well, excepting the goblinoid component). In other words, signs that Darguun spent 400+ years controlled by Galifar. Maybe it'd be as simple as having old maps of Darguun show the capital as being called Newhome (or whatever) than Rhukaan Draal (or whatever the city's name is - I don't have my book with me), or having NPCs reference Rhukaan Draal as "Old Newhome" or something similar. Ditto for the Valenar cities... Places with the names of.. Gorgonhorn Skullreave Lyrenton (these are all in the common tounge, not the goblin languge) The Gathering stone, which has been around, even befor the rebelion, and has been in Dannith hands for awhile. Remember, it was only basicly the area north of the Ghaal river that was Cyre. Many towns may have gone through name changes, and many more never had names. Even durring its time as Cyre, most of this land was outpost farming lands.
Somebloke 02-03-05, 08:27 PM	In the sourcebook, I believe Keith makes a point of saying that in Valenar, the Humans 'merely swapped one ruler for another.' I personally see the rule of the elves as actually much lighter than that of the humans- after all, the elves seem to find the idea of administration boring. Who knows- it would be ironic if life under elven rulers was somewhat more relaxed than under Cyre. I suspect the elves let the humans rule themselves to some extend, so long as they keep out of the way and pay some small level of taxes. That being said, there is a definate strain of aparteight-esk thinking in the arrangement that would largely humiliate the humans. I know I misspelt 'aparteight'. As for Darguun, slavery and mistreatment would definately be the norm. Anyone else picture a human underground railroad developing, leading to Breland?
Isran_Imrador 02-03-05, 09:17 PM	If the were no humans in Taer Valaestas almost all the elfs of Valenar would live there..... Valenar pop: 70000 43 % elfs (30000) Taer Valaestas: ca 20000.... So in my opinion Taer Valaestas will have a quite large human and other races populations...in the Fleshing out Taer Valaestas ! (thread) there are some ideas about Taer Valaestas. :lightbulb