Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 02-11-06, 08:03 PM	Alright, I'm honestly stumped about how to get my PCs out of this fiasco. Here's the situation. The PCs are: A lhazzar privateer paladin captain, a house deneith ranger, an ex-Trust gnome, a goliath cleric, and a gatekeeper druid. They're heading into Greenheart to catch an orien trade caravan to Varna. When they get close, they encounter 2 Warden rangers who ask who they are. Everyone tells the truth except for the gnome, who lies for no good reason. The other party members call him on it, and the gatekeeper druid goes "These are the Wardens, they're good people, you don't have to lie." Things get a little tense, because the rangers just realize they've been lied too. They tell the PCs to explain themselves. The Gatekeeper druid decides its a good idea to reach for his weapon (He intended to drop it on the floor). This causes the rangers to attack, who were already suspicious and looking for any wrong moves (such as drawing a weapon). The gnome casts a new spell out of the spell compedium that causes them to take a -10 penalty on initiative, so they go last but I still said it was obvious that they were poised to attack. The druid drops his weapon on the ground, the deneith ranger and goliath follows suit, then the ex-Trust gnome casts Invisibility, then the lhazzar paladin (who technically had command), tried to talk everybody into being calm. The Wardens don't take the druid dropping his weapon as an absolute sign of innocence, because they did change into an attack posture before he dropped it. They aren't sure of anyones intentions at this point, so they order everyone to get down on the ground. It takes another couple of rounds for the paladin to convince the ex-trust gnome to comply and just be calm. So eventually they're tied up and led to a room where a third Warden starts asking them questions. Through a bit of discussion they decide that if the gatekeeper can take care of a small manifest zone to Mabar nearby, then he really is who he says he is and they'll let them go. The wardens decide to hold a few of the PCs as collateral, and only allow the gatekeeper and the goliath to go, but instead of saying "You and the goliath", he says "You and whatever he is *pointing at the goliath*" For some reason, the gatekeeper decides to open his wise mouth and says something like "What kind of druid are you that you don't know what he is?" And just starts berating the Warden and says somethign to the effect of "We'll fix your problem for you." ...I couldn't believe the attitude he just copped with the Warden. The warden told him to sit down and shut up and the deal was off. Why would he trust him now? He would have to be stupid or insane to let the gatekeeper out of his bonds with that kind of superiority complex, and now he is *sure* that they aren't who they say they are. What do I do now? The Wardens were supposed to be allies but due to one screw-up after another, they're now prisoners. I tried giving them a way to get out of their bonds without making enemies of the Wardens, but after that display of idiocy on the part of the gatekeeper, I just don't know what to do anymore... The session ended there, so I have a week to come up with something... preferably that leaves both sides allies. I don't want the PCs to become fugatives hunted by the wardens.
bholdr_mage 02-11-06, 10:50 PM	Woah. Stupid gatekeeper. WTF was he thinking??!! Have you asked the player this question? Sigh...Have a contact of the Gatekeeper, or someone that knows a party member be in league with the rangers. He walks into the room and is startled to see his friend/contact/nephew whatever tied in bonds. The contact and the rangers have a heated argument over to the side (if in case, someone wants to listen) and the characters have to agree to a true seeing spell as well as a zone of truth spell to see if: a)they aren't changelings. b)they really are telling the truth. After this, of course the rangers are sceptical. Why on Eberron would they act like pompous jerks if they just had to be honest? From this point on, instead of allies, these rangers should just be doing favors for the "contact." by helping the characters. Otherwise they are just plain "indifferent" on other areas. But the first thing you should do is: bop the druid player on the head with something heavy. Seriously, you can't keep bailing the PC's out of danger everytime they do something stupid. If it was at any other time, the druid would have been coup de grace'd; in front of the others. Either that, or have them chop a finger off for being rude. And another thing to answer, "you don't know what a goliath is?!!" The answer would be, "no dumb-ass, goliaths live in MOUNTAINOUS regions. Eldeen Rangers live in FORRESTED regions. BIG DIFFERENCE."
Sieylianna 02-11-06, 11:38 PM	Allow me to be the first to point out that if you hadn't let goliaths in your campaign, this wouldn't have happened. :D Ed
AvonRekaes 02-12-06, 12:11 AM	I'm pretty sure you meant that as a joke, but I for one am tired about all this bull**** whining about subraces (and goliaths aren't even a subrace for chrissakes). If I can find a place for them in my game, then there gonna be in my freaking game. If you don't like that, then please don't derail this post to point that out. Start yet another "subraces are bad" thread. This thread is to help me with a problem and no one is forcing you to post on it. With that said... Thanks for your input bholder_mage. I think that's what I'll do. The nearest gatekeeper grove near greenheart I marked as being 12 days away. This could be itneresting, making the PCs stew for 24 days... Then again, it'll give them another chance to be idiots and try to break out. -_-...
Kalanth 02-12-06, 12:47 AM	I like the idea of letting them take a ride on the idiot express. It certainly will make things harder on them, especially when they discover (by some other means) what the Wardens were intended for. Hopefully that will "rail" them into a position where they have to go back to the Wardens and beg both for forgiveness and aid. And all, hopefully, before they are killed for being morons. And having the Goliath makes for outstanding RP possibilities, especially in this situation. Course, when it came to such an action I would have allowed the PC a Knowledge (Nature) roll to see if they knew the origin's of the Goliath's. That may have helped to prevent the outburst before it happened. I usually make comments like that available for a take back if the Player is not thinking as clearly as the stats on the sheet say they would. But the chess aproach (hand off the piece it is a done deal) is a good way to go as well. The way you described it all made it sound like a solid session in either case.
AvonRekaes 02-12-06, 12:43 PM	Oh, the PCs know all about the goliaths. The problem arrose when the NPC druid didn't. THe Player found it so ridiculous that a druid didn't know what a type of monstrous humanoid was that he got on some sort of high-horse and ran his mouth off. I looked at him stunned, and very seriously said "...You..say that in character?" I gave him an out. In our group, asking "did you say that in character" is understood by all to mean "I can't believe you just said that, do you really want to face the consequences for it?". So I did give him a take-back chance, but he didn't want it. Afterward, he complained that any self-respecting druid should know what a given type opf monstrous humanoid was. I very plainly told him that not every druid on the planet puts ranks into Knowledge Nature, not every druid succeeds on a given knowledge nature check, and not every druid cares to study monstrous humanoid species.
Kinger 02-12-06, 01:05 PM	And goliaths, as monstrous humanoids, might not fall under the category of Knowledge (Nature) in the first place. Knowledge (Arcana), (Dungeoneering), (Geography), or (Local), perhaps instead. I don't think many of those are on the druid skill list. :)
one_winged_angel720 02-12-06, 05:08 PM	One tried and true way to create allies out of awkward situations is the banding against a common enemy. It's a bit cliche, but consider forcing the situation by presenting an outside force that threatens the lot of them, forcing them to cooperate to survive.
AvonRekaes 02-12-06, 05:52 PM	Actually no, it is Knowledge (nature), so a druid can make a check to identify one. However, even Knowledge checks won't let you know something you couldn't possibly know. I mean, if you travel to the heart of Xen'drik and find a never-before-encountered-lost-to-all-time race of Monstrous Humanoids, I don't care if you get a check result of 100, you don't know what the hell that is in front of you. In my game goliaths are isolated and have had minimal contact with other species. I guess the gatekeeper thought the druid should have some mystical knowledge of nature or something.
Euangelion 02-12-06, 09:01 PM	Another possibility for an out is to have the Wardens bring them to Greenheart, where you arrange for an NPC there to have heard of the party or at least the Gatekeeper druid (not too much of a stretch since we're talking about the "heroes of the ages" here, which is just sad in a way! ;) ). That one, upon recognizing the druid, could make some comment to the Wardens along the lines of "Oh! So you picked him up! I knew his big mouth would get him into trouble one of these days. I don't know what he said to you, but deep down he's solid apart from lacking basic skills in diplomacy. You might want to give him another chance." Perhaps the idea that NPCs that the players have never met before could be familiar with their "stupidity" (or to put another way that their reputation for "foot-in-mouth-disease" proceeds them) might provide the wake-up call that they seem to desperately need.
MojoMonkeyMan 02-12-06, 09:02 PM	What do I do now? The Wardens were supposed to be allies but due to one screw-up after another, they're now prisoners. I tried giving them a way to get out of their bonds without making enemies of the Wardens, but after that display of idiocy on the part of the gatekeeper, I just don't know what to do anymore... The session ended there, so I have a week to come up with something... preferably that leaves both sides allies. I don't want the PCs to become fugatives hunted by the wardens. I don't know if you will like this, but here is my suggestion. It sounds to me like you want to railroad them. Meaning, you had a plan for where you wanted the adventure to go, and they blew it. In my opinion, this is the hardest thing for a DM to deal with. You must let go of any expectations you have. They must find their own way out of this situation. Perhaps this changes the whole campaign. Perhaps it totally ruins it. Next time, maybe they (your players) will have a better understanding of the impact their actions have in the world. Maybe this will make them better people. I don't know. What are their real world personalities? Are they always arrogant jerks? Maybe now is a good time to learn a lesson? Perhaps they feel frustrated in their lives and they want to take it out on the people of Eberron. It sounds to me like they have let you down. Maybe you need to tell them that either in game or out. Their "contact" can let them know how disappointed he is in their behavior if you are not comfortable doing it yourself. These are your friends after all, or at least people you spend a good deal of time with. If you let them off the hook too easily, you will be back on these boards again in a month asking how you can get them out of the next jam. I look forward to hearing how this issue is resolved.
AvonRekaes 02-12-06, 09:30 PM	I'll admit to railroading, but only because my players generally have to be railroaded. I started the campaign with a general "You're in regalport, Lhazzar. Go." type attitude and they sat on their bums and generally showed no interest in anything. They even asked me what they were "supposed" to be doing. I guess it's just this groups taste to "live the story" the DM has in mind. Generally, I do want to make them face the consequences of their actions. However, the current "consequences" seem to point to them being held as prisoners for a very long time. (In my game the Last War started again, so the Wardens are on a hightened state of security, meaning the PCs are prisoners of war). I really don't want to be heavy handed with my dissappointment, cause it is just a game afterall. I may be the DM but I don't really have any authority over my friends, and I'm not their father. They threw me for a loop, sure, but if I'm dissappointed with anything it's my lack of being able to come up with something on the fly. I actually did come up with that "take are of a manifest zone to Mabar" thing on the fly. It was just gonna be a small encounter with a few mindless undead and maybe a more powerful one they had to Banish instead of defeat. When the gatekeeper ran his mouth off, it was like a one-two punch. It was the second loop they threw me for in ten minutes and I just couldn't handle it. With that said, I'm perfectly fine with roleplaying NPC's dissappointment. The Lhazzar paladin I mentioned was a PC is actually a DM pet NPC (He usually stays on the ship, but he came with the PCs on this one mission). After the interrogator left the room and the gatekeeper was restrained again, the paladin very angrilly told the gatekeeper "The next time you want to express your stupid opinions, don't.". Afterall, because of the PC's flub, he's stuck in prison longer, away from his ship. And no, the player isn't usually an arrogant jerk. The ex-trust gnome's player that caused the whole fiasco to begin with usually is, so I kinda expect it from him... But yeah... I am railroading them. I could easily just let them sit there until they decide to break out. And at 8th level, I'm pretty sure they could. But the paladin has told everyone they're under strict orders not to do anything... This could indeed very well "screw up" the campaign, loosing a powerful ally like the captain, and making a powerful enemy, like Oalain.
Kalanth 02-13-06, 12:36 AM	The "screw up" sounds like a great plot twist in the entire story that would be player driven. I love it, personally, and would go with it. Railroading is fine, so you know. People kick and scream about it all day long, but as you pointed out, even in the most free flow game, without some forced direction there would never be any plot. Now, you don't have to be heavy handed in your dissapointment, save that for the NPC's to do. What I normally do with my friends is to tell them with a smile what I was expecting of them, and how things got sidetracked because of it. Normally they pick up on those little clues and correct themselves, or make an attempt to set things right so the plot can get back on track. Course, if they make things go from bad to worse, I ride that train and do all I can to make them suffer. It's just more fun that way. Take this DM pet and use him as you have, a wonderful tool to make them feel guilty about what they did. Maybe see the error of their ways. I can actually sympathize with the ex-Trust Gnome for lying to the wardens during a war time situation. I would not want people to know I had ties with the trust during such delicate times. The Gnome should be yelling at the people that called him out, because letting someone know of his origin's could also lead to just as much trouble as they are in now. In truth, this is a great RP situation that you have gotten yourself into, and it has been seen in real life and movies on countless occasions. Think Cold War Russia or edgy situations with the downed U.S. Airforce Awac in China. This could mean that the Wardens might get a Embassador or other political individual to come and defend the players on the behalf of the nation they call home. It could lead to a couple of real gritty, RP heavy, court room drama like A Few Good Men or movies similar in style. Put them on trial, trump up some charges, run with this, cause it could be a memorable moment in your game.
MojoMonkeyMan 02-13-06, 09:04 AM	thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post. I respect that you have given this so much thought. Ultimately, I am sure you will find a way out of this situation that is good for everyone. Ideally, we would all play with great players, but that has never been the case for me. I look forward to hearing more about this.
Arz 02-13-06, 11:20 AM	I can respect that your players need a definite direction to be motivated. It sounds like they messed up an alliance with the wardens that they needed and they also need an appropriate lesson in humility. Just guessing. I am going to assume your villain for this story is intelligent. Have him spring them from jail and smooth things over with the authorities in return for a favor. It could be retrieving an item from a sect of druids or anything that your players would be morally capable of doing. Later on, after many trials your villain either use the item on your player, beating them handily or uses it on a region and pins the blame on them. Generally, try to use the situation they got into to show them that their actions have an effect on your world.
Acev 02-13-06, 05:32 PM	Railroading is fine, so you know. Only if your players don't notice you doing it. If you expect your players to do something, you have to give them options. In my experience, just telling them "go" leads to them doing nothing. Now, I don't consider it railroading if you present an option which is clearly superior to all others. Nor do I believe you should punish your players for choosing an other route. You presented them with potential allies and they said to hell with them? Fine. Let them proceed alone. If they really need help from the Wardens later on, they'll go back and apologize. Don't throw all the work you've done out the window. Just modify it. An unwillingness to modify your plans for the players is railroading.
Kreistor1 02-13-06, 06:03 PM	Have the party actually done anything more than run their lip? Not really. In terms of how much of a threat they are, they haven't proven themselves to be murderous or treacherous. Just mistrustful and uninformed. So, IMO, the right way to deal with them is to basically escort them back the way they came and tell them not to come back until they've learned how to respect authority. I don't see a crime here, and no danger to the land, so ultimately, the Warden shouldn't be looking at cutting their throats just because they lip off to "the man". Make them work to find a new way to get where they're headed to. An expensive way.
PEBKAC 02-14-06, 03:00 PM	I am taking the side of the Gnome. The Trust is the super secret Gnome Inquisition. It is not public knowledge that the Trust exists. It was well within character for the Gnome to lie about being an ex-Trust member. I doubt even the fellow PC’s would know that he was ex-Trust without meta-game knowledge. All that being said, the Druid had a triple dose of foot in mouth potion. I would bring the appropriate amount of law and order down on them and hopefully the Druid learns a little tact in the future.