Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werrwaaa 06-09-04, 10:16 PM	It is known that Eberron is a fairly low-level setting. Many of the acomplished heros passed away during the war [i would asume]. I'm not really sure how to cope with this from a DMing perspective. I want there to be dynamic villains with lots of power, but i don't want established NPCs to have their relative power deluded much. For example, I have been churning some ideas for a game in which the villain is a follower of the LoBster. The idea came from some creative aplications of some 9th level spells and item creation. Of course this would be a fairly late villain if not the "final boss" of an arc. Then i get ye old Dungeon mag and discover that the LoBster is only level 12. How can I justify that? The leader of the Silver Flame is only a level 13[?] cleric. Who has access to 9th level spells? The PCs are suppose to be some of the few high-level characters in the new world order of things, but i woudl like to mix in some relatively high level NPCs other than generic high CR monsters. How do I justify a high level fighter type with a few PrCs? Why wouldn't such a character just march out and pwn the LoBster in the face hole? It just doesn't seem justified to me. And honestly I don't like tampering with settings, so I wouldn't feel cool about bumping the LoBsters class levels. *cries* How are you guys going to cope with it? +++++ P.S. I hope my concern was made clear, i just don't know how to prepare a suitably dynamic environment within such a low level environment. +++++
JohnnyONeal 06-09-04, 10:36 PM	First of all, a character's strength in a toe-to-toe fight isn't the sole judge of his power. The Lord of Blades is a clever villain, with access to many resources and thousands of potential followers. On the other hand, he should also scale with the heroes. Some helpful quotes from Keith:In his first incarnation, he actually was a higher level character. He was dropped in power so that he could be a foe PCs can personally interact with earlier in their careers. I would certainly consider him to be a villian who should evolve with the party -- he will gain experience and power just as they do. I may post my stats for the higher-level LoB at some point. While it's not specifically said, he's also a villain that should always have an escape plan. He's a master strategist, and if he gets to choose the battlefield he'll have lots of tricks prepared. Between infusions, magic items, duplicates, and other tricks, he should keep enemies on their toes. ...The Lord of Blades is a challenge that will grow in power with the adventurers, but he's got a ways to go.
Docrailgun 06-09-04, 11:06 PM	Well, I'll probably start my players' PCs at 2nd-4th level, and make sure they don't go up in level too quickly. I'm looking forward to a very RP-intensive campaign, without a lot of dungeon crawling. Originally posted by Werrwaaa It is known that Eberron is a fairly low-level setting. Many of the acomplished heros passed away during the war [i would asume]. I'm not really sure how to cope with this from a DMing perspective. I want there to be dynamic villains with lots of power, but i don't want established NPCs to have their relative power deluded much. For example, I have been churning some ideas for a game in which the villain is a follower of the LoBster. The idea came from some creative aplications of some 9th level spells and item creation. Of course this would be a fairly late villain if not the "final boss" of an arc. Then i get ye old Dungeon mag and discover that the LoBster is only level 12. How can I justify that? The leader of the Silver Flame is only a level 13[?] cleric. Who has access to 9th level spells? The PCs are suppose to be some of the few high-level characters in the new world order of things, but i woudl like to mix in some relatively high level NPCs other than generic high CR monsters. How do I justify a high level fighter type with a few PrCs? Why wouldn't such a character just march out and pwn the LoBster in the face hole? It just doesn't seem justified to me. And honestly I don't like tampering with settings, so I wouldn't feel cool about bumping the LoBsters class levels. *cries* How are you guys going to cope with it? +++++ P.S. I hope my concern was made clear, i just don't know how to prepare a suitably dynamic environment within such a low level environment. +++++
Azzadar 06-10-04, 03:26 AM	In the immortal words of the friend who taught me how to DM..."You're the Dungeon Master! Run the game how ever you want." Even though the LoB in print is Lvl 12, beef him up if you need to. Give him a giant robot or an army of ninjas. Ultamately, it's you're game, do what you want with the setting, characters and ideas. As far as high level NPC's go, I believe in them. I just retire them. A veteran fighter settles down and opens a sword shop. Why doesn't he smash the Lord of Blades face in? The fighter is 60 years old with a leg wound that won't heal right. Why won't it heal right? He's cursed? He hates magic? Make something up or don't explain it at all. He's no longer the hero, the players are. I'm all for higher level NPC's, just make the players the heroes.
N'wah 06-10-04, 05:29 AM	Not only that, but while NPC allies are low- mid-level, the NPC enemies run the gamut from cunning 1st level street theives and bandits to world-spanning evil agendas and sinister powers of all shapes, sizes, and level. If you don't want the PCs facing off against the LoBster himself (and why not? He is the big baddie, not a flunkie), make his second-in-command (the main villain in your campaign) a 17th level warforged wizard, and the LoBster can be improved to epic levels. Just don't sell the PCs short- have them fight said second-in-command at, say, the Lord of Blades' current level, and fight an improved, uber Lord of Blades at a higher level. And then again. And again. And again. He does have a lot of resources, after all, and if you make him a high- (or epic) level wizard, he'd better have some contingency spells at the ready ("if my HP total drops below 30%, I teleport back to my cadre of warforged artificers for healing and seek revenge"). Then, after they finally defeat the mighty LoBster, it becomes apparent that, OH NO! He was the only thing holding the illithids of Xoriat back from reopening a long-forgotten portal to Xoriat hidden in the Mournlands! Now they've gotta take the fight to Epic-Level masters of said plane, or else face utter extinction!
Alathayn 06-10-04, 06:38 AM	The highest level nonevil NPC is a level 20 druid (and a pine:D) and remember that there are worse villains than the LoBster, like the Lords of Dust, and Eberron supports the recuring villain theme. The LoBster may be level 12 the first time he meets the PCs, but he'll reapear with some more class levels sometime later.
Ezekiel 06-10-04, 06:54 AM	For me, this is one of the things I really enjoy about Eberron. A 12th level NPC is an incredible force in the world. A 16th level is the most powerful the "good guys" have right now (before the PCs go out there and bash enough evil to reach those dizzy hights). Which means that the PCs are powerful even from the onset of the campaign. When they reach level 7, the characters can swing the tide of battle with their spells and combat prowess. They have access to magic most people haven't seen since the last war, and enough HP to stand against a score of lvl1 warriors. Also, I don't see Eberron as a "low level" campaign setting. I see it as a CS that starts off low level, and has all the potential to go into the epics. Unlike FR, the PCs will be a force to reckon with early in a given campaign, because the world isn't filled with high level NPCs that you have to cook up reasons for not doing what the PCs are doing but with just a flick of the wrist. If you want to take Eberron to high levels, including "good" NPCs, it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, if the CS sells well, I'm sure we can expect add ons for higher level play. If you don't feel like doing the work yourself that is. But the thing is, Eberron seems to be intended as a "you're our only hope" kind of world. The PCs are all that will stand between the forces of darkness and the destruction of the civilisations of the world.
Remnant 06-10-04, 09:03 AM	You very nearly touched on it yourself- its all about relative power levels. Is LoB going to be a threat to a level 16 party in direct combat? No. But relative to nearly everything else in the world character wise, he is really dangerous. Eberron does not suffer from the FR paradox (and hopefully never will)- the vast majority of characters, even soldiers and the like, are first and second level. But in FR, the power scale of most written NPCs, and from that, players, is much higher. To me, Eberron is more true to concept than FR. Originally posted by Werrwaaa It is known that Eberron is a fairly low-level setting. Many of the acomplished heros passed away during the war [i would asume]. I'm not really sure how to cope with this from a DMing perspective. I want there to be dynamic villains with lots of power, but i don't want established NPCs to have their relative power deluded much. For example, I have been churning some ideas for a game in which the villain is a follower of the LoBster. The idea came from some creative aplications of some 9th level spells and item creation. Of course this would be a fairly late villain if not the "final boss" of an arc. Then i get ye old Dungeon mag and discover that the LoBster is only level 12. How can I justify that? The leader of the Silver Flame is only a level 13[?] cleric. Who has access to 9th level spells? The PCs are suppose to be some of the few high-level characters in the new world order of things, but i woudl like to mix in some relatively high level NPCs other than generic high CR monsters. How do I justify a high level fighter type with a few PrCs? Why wouldn't such a character just march out and pwn the LoBster in the face hole? It just doesn't seem justified to me. And honestly I don't like tampering with settings, so I wouldn't feel cool about bumping the LoBsters class levels. *cries* How are you guys going to cope with it? +++++ P.S. I hope my concern was made clear, i just don't know how to prepare a suitably dynamic environment within such a low level environment. +++++
Werrwaaa 06-10-04, 10:43 AM	Ok, I think you've all helped me understand how better to adjust to a lower level environment. Thanks for all the constructivness, its helpfull when im so used t the Realms. But, being put at ease in a general sense aside, how would you suggest i modify the villain mentioned in my original post? For the villain to execute the various actions I'm looking for, the application of 9th level spells is required. I'm not really a big fan of 'fudging it' and saying she has some random item that can do it for her. Should i just hold off on this particular arc untill, in game terms, the world has had a chance to grow further? Thanks again for all the help so far, guys!
crazysamaritan 06-10-04, 11:09 AM	Well, some of those effects could be done by an unknown power. Say, LoB is fighting the PCs, and starting to lose. he's only lvl12, and can't escape. But he doesn't want to! He has a plan, and just before he pulls it off, {%/hole opens\&} and drags him in, he's trying to attack the PCs, and shouting that he needs "just one more second" to destroy them.
TwinBahamut 06-10-04, 11:26 AM	Here are some ideas... 1) Incantations. Do you have either the D20 Modern supplement Urban Arcana, or the Unearthed Arcana book? Those details rules for casting high level spells by ways other than being high level. While stopping the 17th level warforged wizard may be cool, stopping the army of warforged cultists might just be more fun (and actually, may be closer to the inspirations for the setting). 2) Some other power providing magic for the LoB in order to serve its own ends. For example, maybe the Lords of Dust intend to use the warforged to their own ends, and are giving the Lord of Blades some potent magic items in exchange for certain services. This can turn the adventure into first a mid-level adventure against the warforged and Lord of Blades, but also lead into higher level adventures against the Lords of Dust. Maybe then the Lord of Blades can return after gaining a few levels. Who knows?
Azzadar 06-10-04, 12:46 PM	1. The villian could use scrolls. 2. The villian can be a 17th level wizard/sorserer who works for or worships the LoB. 3. The villian can have a magic storing ring and a lot of gold to pay for charges.
debatedeus 06-10-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Werrwaaa Ok, I think you've all helped me understand how better to adjust to a lower level environment. Thanks for all the constructivness, its helpfull when im so used t the Realms. But, being put at ease in a general sense aside, how would you suggest i modify the villain mentioned in my original post? For the villain to execute the various actions I'm looking for, the application of 9th level spells is required. I'm not really a big fan of 'fudging it' and saying she has some random item that can do it for her. Should i just hold off on this particular arc untill, in game terms, the world has had a chance to grow further? Thanks again for all the help so far, guys! Some of the effects you want can be generated by the very nature of Eberron itself. High level magical effects without actual high level magic application is fairly common. With the application of dragonshards, you can seal elemental spirits and use them to power an airship. Because of manifest zones, the city of Sharn has skyscrapers--an incredible feat that is supported without the use of technology...only magic. There are actual living spells traveling around the mournland, spells given a life of their own for the brutalizing of PCs. House Canneth built a special breed of constructs that are alive with souls! And they learn and grow like people! In any case, my point is that due to the effects that we know about you have access to a number of interesting ways to generate the effects that you want in creative ways without actually having a high level spellcaster to do it. Also, there have been hints that the Warforged "Technology" is stolen off of a technology present on Xen'drik. Perhaps your Warforged spellcaster is a warforged who got damaged enough to deactivate and has layed dormit for thousands of years, and suddenly was woken up by the LoB and his people. Lots of interesting story chances. Hope this helps.
Hellcow 06-10-04, 01:32 PM	Well, I can't reveal what hasn't already been said, but in case someone with the book feels like mentioning it, and eldritch machine (page 273) can allow a low level villain to produce a powerful and unusual effect. And yes, manifest zones are another way of having unexpectedly powerful or unusual magical effects.
Hardhead 06-10-04, 03:07 PM	Maybe if you'd tell us exactly what you wanted him to do, we could help you more.
Saurenda 06-10-04, 03:40 PM	To be honest break away form the regular and see Eberron as a world were people have lost a lot. (Please skip this paragraph if you like FR) No Elminster or such to save the day regular people needing to rise to heros and take it slow. No plot *****es, or by the nose quests, people do things for themselves and form direction by the things they choose no some ***** named Mistra who sends a symbol out and one day says "No more epic level magic! I don't care about you shadow weave people, but my followers will become seriously underpowered because I'm a goddess who doesn't like the people who bend over backwards for me? ...Crap! What have I done?! Why am I the most stupid goddess in all of FR? Oh no the shadows returned! Lets attack Thae, no way that can go wrong, what are they going to do all teleport back at once?" At any rate this isn't about bashing FR or any other campaign setting, unforetunately, and it is time for any Gm or player to realize what can a normal person do? What can a level one wizard really accomplish? Prestidgitation sounds better and better everyday. Still illusion will become the laymans big spell, or even charm person could be used by the PC merchant to get a better deal, and shocking grasp may replace handshakes on duels. PCs should not be saved, if they are so dumb they cannot function in a world without level 5 magic off the bat kill them. Earn the right to cast the spell I say. If you can't use low level magic effectively you don't deserve to say cloudkill or disjunction. Everyone makes a start from scratch as it should be. Personally things like exploding runes, sephia snake sigil and illusionary script used on a message to the PCS or even a king should be considered deadly, not "Ha ha ha, now I'm going to use my ruby rod of stuff! No damage! I eat spheres of annilation for breakfast." Nice way to kill a specific person you disginate ahead of time if you ask me, it doesn't kill the messenger who tries to read it or any PC so they have no clue if you slap nystul undetectible aura on it. Lets see...thats about it. Hope no one was offended. =D
Docrailgun 06-10-04, 04:40 PM	And there _were_ once high-level magicians, but they died in the Last War. Also, there were once very powerful magicians and divine casters... such as the Gatekeepers from millenia ago. There may be artifacts hanging out there somewhere. Originally posted by crazysamaritan Well, some of those effects could be done by an unknown power. Say, LoB is fighting the PCs, and starting to lose. he's only lvl12, and can't escape. But he doesn't want to! He has a plan, and just before he pulls it off, {%/hole opens\&} and drags him in, he's trying to attack the PCs, and shouting that he needs "just one more second" to destroy them.
stembolt 06-11-04, 12:01 AM	A level 12 villain is not weak compared to a 3rd level party. He is in fact overwhelmingly powerful. He could easily be the evil mastermind that the PCs are fighting. Then he grows as the PCs do. There is also no reason to remain slavishly loyal to the NPC write-ups. For example you could make the LoB 17th level if that’s what your campaign calls for. If you need a 15th level silver flame cleric *poof*. I think it is better to just change things then come up with cheesy work-arounds. I think also in Eberron there are less random high level people and more deliberately placed high level people.
The White Sorcerer 06-11-04, 03:38 AM	Some definitions from the Dungeon Master's Guide... Low Level=2nd-5th level Middle Level=6th-11th level High Level=12th-15th Very High Level=16th-20th level By these definitions, characters like the LoB, the Lhesh Haruuc, and Kaius are actually high-level NPCs, and characters like Jaela Daran and Oalian are very high-level NPCs. It would seem that the Forgotten Realms has made people think that high level=20th-level and up.
DM Almighty 06-11-04, 05:21 AM	The LoB is actually a subordinate of some other "more powerful" villain. Use him as is for a while, and increase his level by 1 for every 3 PC levels, that way when PC's are 12th lvl, LoB is 16th. That's a good match up in my books. Then when LoB is defeated, the new "more powerful" threat is revealed, giving the PC's something to chase through the higher levels. At least, that's how I'm gonna work it.
Brastan 06-11-04, 05:29 PM	Thats a decent match, just don't forget about his helpers. If its four+ on one its no comtets at all. I've come out far worse match ups with moderat pain. However running away and then coming back when the villian least expted was the general method. I'm stating my players out at 1st level. I feel that they should start from the ground up and really explore the setting (not be told about it). I have one (by DMG definition) Mid-level Villine and supporting organization almost ready to go. They are all 9th-10th level. Pay very close attention to that DMG definition and think about the resources that are available at that level. Don't just go by the NPC outfinting tables eather. Thats only good for personal items that are being carried. Now, what I think needs work is the random village table in the DMG. It does not work for Eberron. I'm working though it as I go and my have some ideas later (as usual). I'd say make your supervillain and set her(?) as the super mastermind, the PCs never see her, no one knows about her. See if you can find a copy of the Villains Hand Book from Second Edition. (There's a book I wouldn't mind seeing a reprint of, very easy to do and little updating required). What do you mean you don't like fugge. It's proably the best tool DM's have. I can actualy relate, I don't like to do it but some times it takes to much time (that can be sent woring on other related stuff) to work out how a villain does something, especially one that won't show up for sometime. I'd fouces on the villains that'll be showing up sooner, those are the ones that need your time, attention, and care. Also if you want the high-levels but want to keep the power down try combining NPC Classes (Warrior,Expert,Adept) with PrCs. You'll have to bring every book you own to bare on making it work, but hay you paided for um might as well use um. I'll get back to you on how to make the Master of the Secret Sound work(Dragon Magazine something) work in this way. Great class, can emulate any 9th-level spell/spell-like ability or lower once per day (with you paying the cost associated with it). That is truly epic.