Demon Lords in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demon Lords in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eriedm
05-09-06, 06:01 AM Hopefully I'm putting this in the right spot. I'm wondering how other Dm's are using the Demon lords from the BoVD in Eberron. Especially with the release of Codex Infernum 1 next month.
MarkB
05-09-06, 07:36 AM I haven't used them myself, but making them imprisoned Rakshasa Rajahs seems the obvious way to go.
Urko
05-09-06, 01:05 PM Agreed. And there is some precedent for this, given the mention of Levistus in the Player's Guide.
Titanic Ego
05-09-06, 09:16 PM BoVD archfiends are simply too weak to make good rajahs: it's impossible to imagine them kicking the asses of hundreds of great wyrm dragons. Keith Baker's rajahs, which are basically divine rank 7 lesser who reform from any attack after 24 hours and cannot be bound by mortals, DO qualify. Of course, the BOVD archfiends' problems are even worse in Oerth or Planescape: a fully advanced balor or pit fiend can take out Asmodeus or Demogorgon easily, and it is absurd for the Lords of the Nine to bully Lawful Evil gods who could kill them in one round.

It's possible you could scale down the rajahs' combat capabilities to be close to a great wyrm's, and assume that much of the threat was their ability to come back for more if killed, but in that case it becomes even more essential that they have the immunity to imprisonment the rajahs effective lesser godhood confers. Otherwise the dragons would have just used soul bind and temporal stasis to bind the entire rakshasa race without any help from the couatl/Silver Flame.
Koriel
05-10-06, 06:31 AM I would just make demon lords be the leaders of the demons dwelling on the plane of Shavarath.

Rakshasa Rajas are something entirely different than demon lords. Rajahs are described in Dragon #337 and they're a lot more terrifying.
CzarGarrett
05-10-06, 09:52 AM The Demon Lords could easily be the right hand 'men' of the Rajahs who are stuck in Khyber.

The Lords of the 9 are probably better suited to be on various planes- Mephistolpheles in Fierna, Dispater in his fortress in Shavarrath.
mhacdebhandia
05-13-06, 05:52 AM BoVD archfiends are simply too weak to make good rajahs: it's impossible to imagine them kicking the asses of hundreds of great wyrm dragons. Keith Baker's rajahs, which are basically divine rank 7 lesser who reform from any attack after 24 hours and cannot be bound by mortals, DO qualify. Of course, the BOVD archfiends' problems are even worse in Oerth or Planescape: a fully advanced balor or pit fiend can take out Asmodeus or Demogorgon easily, and it is absurd for the Lords of the Nine to bully Lawful Evil gods who could kill them in one round.
Because it's impossible to use different game statistics for them in your game, of course. Why, Wizards of the Coast will dispatch Game Compliance Ninjae (TM) to your house at the slightest hint of such a heinous deviation from Holy Game Writ!
Koriel
05-15-06, 02:02 PM The Player's Guide to Eberron says the Rakshasa Rajahs are similar to demon lords and archdevils.

The barbarian tribes dwelling in the Demon Wastes worship various Rajahs, night hags and other fiends. It says some of the Rajahs they worship are entities that might be similar to the various arch fiends and it gives specific examples. For example, the Deathbringers tribe worship a lord of death and the undead, and it says their Rajah might resemble Orcus.
turalisj
05-15-06, 09:12 PM So make the Archfiends the frontline soldiers for the LoDs. While the rakajas are handling the oldest of the dragons, the archfiends go out and slaughter the dragon eggs....

You know, with that in mind, you would think the rakajahs should have majorly kicked ass against the dragons.
Grymar
05-15-06, 10:16 PM Personally, I use them as Lords on Shavarath. You could always use one as a Lord of Dust, but I don't feel they qualify to be a Rajah.
Titanic Ego
05-16-06, 02:07 AM I figure the Rajah-Dragon battles were not an instakill win by the rajahs for a few reasons:

1. Numbers: there were only ~30 rajahs (essentially divine rank 7 creatures with 20 outsider HD and 30-40 class levels) versus presumably large numbers of dragons. There were quite a few more lesser rakshasa, but a 10 HD rakshasa would get soul bound pretty quickly against elder dragons, and even the Lords of Dust typically don't get past 25 HD/Caster levels. Advantage: Dragons.

2. Resurrection: rakshasa and lesser fiends automatically return from a day to a year after destruction, and would have to be soul bound or otherwise imprisoned. Dragons would have access to true resurrection, but even dragons can't have unlimited 25,000 gp diamonds in their hoards. Worse, the rajahs were the only combatants who were immune to imprisonment (and every other form of lasting incapacitation). Advantage: rakshasa.

3. Raw combat power. An advanced great wyrm gold with 18 extra hit dice (age category 18) reaches a total of 59 HD, a CL of 31, gets several free Improved Spell Capacity feats and high CHA, SR 45, etc. In other words, it would be somewhat weaker than a rajah but in the same ballpark for most abilities. A tag team of these could be deadly, e.g. dragons using disjunction to break defensive spells so that other dragons can let loose with no save no SR conjurations and the like. It would have some chance of breaching SR, would have a chance of resisting spells from even a pure caster rajah, and quite likely one with some non-caster class levels. Advantage likely to the rajahs but not overwhelming. A dragon army would likely be able to face down any one rajah, or perhaps several, but would take casualties and then have to face the same rajah again 4-24 hours later.

4. Epic spells: dragons can get comparable skill checks, and could have more high level casters for cooperative casting, vs rajah super-mages like Sul Khatesh. But most rajahs would not be totally devoted to caster levels and armed with related salient abilities, so on the whole dragons could rely on better epic magic ('dragon magic').

5. Interest: the rajahs might often wish to promote their spheres more than defeat the dragons, i.e. toying with the mortals. Further, separate rajahs might not work closely, and would not feel any real threat from the dragons until the Silver Flame appeared.
Ellorin
05-16-06, 02:47 AM Oh, not again...
Ellorin
05-16-06, 02:52 AM :

2. Resurrection: rakshasa and lesser fiends automatically return from a day to a year after destruction, and would have to be soul bound or otherwise imprisoned

Hm...Do they? Why? I was under the impression that the ressurection rules for the native outsiders are the same as those for humanoids.
Titanic Ego
05-16-06, 07:23 PM Hm...Do they? Why? I was under the impression that the ressurection rules for the native outsiders are the same as those for humanoids.
I'm basing this on Keith Baker's dragon article and innumerable AKB postings: Eberron outsiders reform after being destroyed (a day to a year later, with more magical, holy, and tailored means of death delaying reappearance), so there is a fixed number of each type. If they have less than 12 HD and levels then they lose their memories and experience in the process, otherwise they come back largely unharmed. Rajahs reform 4d6 hours after being 'killed.'

Rakshasa wouldn't need resurrection magic, except perhaps using true resurrection to restore a fallen comrade immediately in battle or the like.
Ellorin
05-18-06, 03:37 AM I'm basing this on Keith Baker's dragon article and innumerable AKB postings: Eberron outsiders reform after being destroyed (a day to a year later, with more magical, holy, and tailored means of death delaying reappearance), so there is a fixed number of each type. If they have less than 12 HD and levels then they lose their memories and experience in the process, otherwise they come back largely unharmed. Rajahs reform 4d6 hours after being 'killed.'

Rakshasa wouldn't need resurrection magic, except perhaps using true resurrection to restore a fallen comrade immediately in battle or the like.

Even the native ones?So, a tiefling will return as well? I'm not talking about demons or devils-that goes without saying.
Hair Wax
05-18-06, 07:00 AM I'd think it only applies to pure outsiders. Half-whatevers and planetouched have mortal blood running through them so don't regenerate. The primal native fiends, namely Rakshashas and Night Hags would regenerate.
Ellorin
05-20-06, 03:21 PM I'd think it only applies to pure outsiders. Half-whatevers and planetouched have mortal blood running through them so don't regenerate. The primal native fiends, namely Rakshashas and Night Hags would regenerate.

But the Rakshasa isn't pure outsider! It has the native subtype, with the associated features from the Monster Manual. Compare them with the planetouched-same category!
Koriel
05-20-06, 03:37 PM Do Eberron archfiends have to be evil? Can Orcus become a paladin of the Blood of Vol? ;)
Ellorin
05-20-06, 03:41 PM Do Eberron archfiends have to be evil? Can Orcus become a paladin of the Blood of Vol? ;)

I'm not sure of what you mean...
Koriel
05-20-06, 04:13 PM Well in Eberron, monsters don't have to have to follow a specified alignment and therefore a vampire could be good. And clerics don't to match the alignment of their diety or religion and therefore an evil cleric can be a follower of the Silver Flame.

So following this logic, there's been several threads on these forums postulating whether a paladin could be a follower of the Blood of Vol if they didn't know it was an evil religion. So I was jokingly taking this idea to the silliest extreme, whether the most evil of monsters could be good enough to be a paladin and then ironically worship a religion they didn't know was evil. :thinks:
Ellorin
05-20-06, 04:26 PM Well in Eberron, monsters don't have to have to follow a specified alignment and therefore a vampire could be good. And clerics don't to match the alignment of their diety or religion and therefore an evil cleric can be a follower of the Silver Flame.

So following this logic, there's been several threads on these forums postulating whether a paladin could be a follower of the Blood of Vol if they didn't know it was an evil religion. So I was jokingly taking this idea to the silliest extreme, whether the most evil of monsters could be good enough to be a paladin and then ironically worship a religion they didn't know was evil. :thinks:

Oh, I see...Well, not an archfiend for sure. But I could accept a unique individual becoming good( a blood war-disillusionised succubus from example) but still worshipping the Fury or the Shadow("for I am a shade, a monstrous being too). HIGHLY improbable of course...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eriedm 05-09-06, 06:01 AM	Hopefully I'm putting this in the right spot. I'm wondering how other Dm's are using the Demon lords from the BoVD in Eberron. Especially with the release of Codex Infernum 1 next month.
MarkB 05-09-06, 07:36 AM	I haven't used them myself, but making them imprisoned Rakshasa Rajahs seems the obvious way to go.
Urko 05-09-06, 01:05 PM	Agreed. And there is some precedent for this, given the mention of Levistus in the Player's Guide.
Titanic Ego 05-09-06, 09:16 PM	BoVD archfiends are simply too weak to make good rajahs: it's impossible to imagine them kicking the asses of hundreds of great wyrm dragons. Keith Baker's rajahs, which are basically divine rank 7 lesser who reform from any attack after 24 hours and cannot be bound by mortals, DO qualify. Of course, the BOVD archfiends' problems are even worse in Oerth or Planescape: a fully advanced balor or pit fiend can take out Asmodeus or Demogorgon easily, and it is absurd for the Lords of the Nine to bully Lawful Evil gods who could kill them in one round. It's possible you could scale down the rajahs' combat capabilities to be close to a great wyrm's, and assume that much of the threat was their ability to come back for more if killed, but in that case it becomes even more essential that they have the immunity to imprisonment the rajahs effective lesser godhood confers. Otherwise the dragons would have just used soul bind and temporal stasis to bind the entire rakshasa race without any help from the couatl/Silver Flame.
Koriel 05-10-06, 06:31 AM	I would just make demon lords be the leaders of the demons dwelling on the plane of Shavarath. Rakshasa Rajas are something entirely different than demon lords. Rajahs are described in Dragon #337 and they're a lot more terrifying.
CzarGarrett 05-10-06, 09:52 AM	The Demon Lords could easily be the right hand 'men' of the Rajahs who are stuck in Khyber. The Lords of the 9 are probably better suited to be on various planes- Mephistolpheles in Fierna, Dispater in his fortress in Shavarrath.
mhacdebhandia 05-13-06, 05:52 AM	BoVD archfiends are simply too weak to make good rajahs: it's impossible to imagine them kicking the asses of hundreds of great wyrm dragons. Keith Baker's rajahs, which are basically divine rank 7 lesser who reform from any attack after 24 hours and cannot be bound by mortals, DO qualify. Of course, the BOVD archfiends' problems are even worse in Oerth or Planescape: a fully advanced balor or pit fiend can take out Asmodeus or Demogorgon easily, and it is absurd for the Lords of the Nine to bully Lawful Evil gods who could kill them in one round. Because it's impossible to use different game statistics for them in your game, of course. Why, Wizards of the Coast will dispatch Game Compliance Ninjae (TM) to your house at the slightest hint of such a heinous deviation from Holy Game Writ!
Koriel 05-15-06, 02:02 PM	The Player's Guide to Eberron says the Rakshasa Rajahs are similar to demon lords and archdevils. The barbarian tribes dwelling in the Demon Wastes worship various Rajahs, night hags and other fiends. It says some of the Rajahs they worship are entities that might be similar to the various arch fiends and it gives specific examples. For example, the Deathbringers tribe worship a lord of death and the undead, and it says their Rajah might resemble Orcus.
turalisj 05-15-06, 09:12 PM	So make the Archfiends the frontline soldiers for the LoDs. While the rakajas are handling the oldest of the dragons, the archfiends go out and slaughter the dragon eggs.... You know, with that in mind, you would think the rakajahs should have majorly kicked ass against the dragons.
Grymar 05-15-06, 10:16 PM	Personally, I use them as Lords on Shavarath. You could always use one as a Lord of Dust, but I don't feel they qualify to be a Rajah.
Titanic Ego 05-16-06, 02:07 AM	I figure the Rajah-Dragon battles were not an instakill win by the rajahs for a few reasons: 1. Numbers: there were only ~30 rajahs (essentially divine rank 7 creatures with 20 outsider HD and 30-40 class levels) versus presumably large numbers of dragons. There were quite a few more lesser rakshasa, but a 10 HD rakshasa would get soul bound pretty quickly against elder dragons, and even the Lords of Dust typically don't get past 25 HD/Caster levels. Advantage: Dragons. 2. Resurrection: rakshasa and lesser fiends automatically return from a day to a year after destruction, and would have to be soul bound or otherwise imprisoned. Dragons would have access to true resurrection, but even dragons can't have unlimited 25,000 gp diamonds in their hoards. Worse, the rajahs were the only combatants who were immune to imprisonment (and every other form of lasting incapacitation). Advantage: rakshasa. 3. Raw combat power. An advanced great wyrm gold with 18 extra hit dice (age category 18) reaches a total of 59 HD, a CL of 31, gets several free Improved Spell Capacity feats and high CHA, SR 45, etc. In other words, it would be somewhat weaker than a rajah but in the same ballpark for most abilities. A tag team of these could be deadly, e.g. dragons using disjunction to break defensive spells so that other dragons can let loose with no save no SR conjurations and the like. It would have some chance of breaching SR, would have a chance of resisting spells from even a pure caster rajah, and quite likely one with some non-caster class levels. Advantage likely to the rajahs but not overwhelming. A dragon army would likely be able to face down any one rajah, or perhaps several, but would take casualties and then have to face the same rajah again 4-24 hours later. 4. Epic spells: dragons can get comparable skill checks, and could have more high level casters for cooperative casting, vs rajah super-mages like Sul Khatesh. But most rajahs would not be totally devoted to caster levels and armed with related salient abilities, so on the whole dragons could rely on better epic magic ('dragon magic'). 5. Interest: the rajahs might often wish to promote their spheres more than defeat the dragons, i.e. toying with the mortals. Further, separate rajahs might not work closely, and would not feel any real threat from the dragons until the Silver Flame appeared.
Ellorin 05-16-06, 02:47 AM	Oh, not again...
Ellorin 05-16-06, 02:52 AM	: 2. Resurrection: rakshasa and lesser fiends automatically return from a day to a year after destruction, and would have to be soul bound or otherwise imprisoned Hm...Do they? Why? I was under the impression that the ressurection rules for the native outsiders are the same as those for humanoids.
Titanic Ego 05-16-06, 07:23 PM	Hm...Do they? Why? I was under the impression that the ressurection rules for the native outsiders are the same as those for humanoids. I'm basing this on Keith Baker's dragon article and innumerable AKB postings: Eberron outsiders reform after being destroyed (a day to a year later, with more magical, holy, and tailored means of death delaying reappearance), so there is a fixed number of each type. If they have less than 12 HD and levels then they lose their memories and experience in the process, otherwise they come back largely unharmed. Rajahs reform 4d6 hours after being 'killed.' Rakshasa wouldn't need resurrection magic, except perhaps using true resurrection to restore a fallen comrade immediately in battle or the like.
Ellorin 05-18-06, 03:37 AM	I'm basing this on Keith Baker's dragon article and innumerable AKB postings: Eberron outsiders reform after being destroyed (a day to a year later, with more magical, holy, and tailored means of death delaying reappearance), so there is a fixed number of each type. If they have less than 12 HD and levels then they lose their memories and experience in the process, otherwise they come back largely unharmed. Rajahs reform 4d6 hours after being 'killed.' Rakshasa wouldn't need resurrection magic, except perhaps using true resurrection to restore a fallen comrade immediately in battle or the like. Even the native ones?So, a tiefling will return as well? I'm not talking about demons or devils-that goes without saying.
Hair Wax 05-18-06, 07:00 AM	I'd think it only applies to pure outsiders. Half-whatevers and planetouched have mortal blood running through them so don't regenerate. The primal native fiends, namely Rakshashas and Night Hags would regenerate.
Ellorin 05-20-06, 03:21 PM	I'd think it only applies to pure outsiders. Half-whatevers and planetouched have mortal blood running through them so don't regenerate. The primal native fiends, namely Rakshashas and Night Hags would regenerate. But the Rakshasa isn't pure outsider! It has the native subtype, with the associated features from the Monster Manual. Compare them with the planetouched-same category!
Koriel 05-20-06, 03:37 PM	Do Eberron archfiends have to be evil? Can Orcus become a paladin of the Blood of Vol? ;)
Ellorin 05-20-06, 03:41 PM	Do Eberron archfiends have to be evil? Can Orcus become a paladin of the Blood of Vol? ;) I'm not sure of what you mean...
Koriel 05-20-06, 04:13 PM	Well in Eberron, monsters don't have to have to follow a specified alignment and therefore a vampire could be good. And clerics don't to match the alignment of their diety or religion and therefore an evil cleric can be a follower of the Silver Flame. So following this logic, there's been several threads on these forums postulating whether a paladin could be a follower of the Blood of Vol if they didn't know it was an evil religion. So I was jokingly taking this idea to the silliest extreme, whether the most evil of monsters could be good enough to be a paladin and then ironically worship a religion they didn't know was evil. :thinks:
Ellorin 05-20-06, 04:26 PM	Well in Eberron, monsters don't have to have to follow a specified alignment and therefore a vampire could be good. And clerics don't to match the alignment of their diety or religion and therefore an evil cleric can be a follower of the Silver Flame. So following this logic, there's been several threads on these forums postulating whether a paladin could be a follower of the Blood of Vol if they didn't know it was an evil religion. So I was jokingly taking this idea to the silliest extreme, whether the most evil of monsters could be good enough to be a paladin and then ironically worship a religion they didn't know was evil. :thinks: Oh, I see...Well, not an archfiend for sure. But I could accept a unique individual becoming good( a blood war-disillusionised succubus from example) but still worshipping the Fury or the Shadow("for I am a shade, a monstrous being too). HIGHLY improbable of course...