Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Distorted Penguin 09-07-04, 04:08 AM	At the time of purchase, it seemed more interesting than Forgotten Realms. Granted, that might be due to the fact that most games I've played have been based off of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, but now that I think about it, I'm starting to wonder if I should have gotten the Forgotten Realms campaign setting instead. It seems as though more people are playing Forgotten Realms as opposed to Eberron, which worries me some what. I don't want to have trouble finding an Eberron campaign, or have trouble getting my players to play in it. It also seems as though the Forgotten Realms setting has more books relating to it. Is this because of the length of time Forgotten Realms has been out, or is it due to the fact that hardly anyone plays in Eberron? Now, I ask you, shall I get my money back and buy the Forgotten Realms setting, or will I be able to suffice with Eberron?
stone_dog 09-07-04, 04:30 AM	Is this because of the length of time Forgotten Realms has been out, or is it due to the fact that hardly anyone plays in Eberron? That would be the first one there. True, you have more source material to go with in Forgotten Realms. There is even a stack of free material somewhere on this site (hidden away in the downloads section I think), but once you get that information you have to ask yourself "Is this really what I am looking for?" Maybe it is. I am nobody to tell you to cling to Eberron vs Forgotten Realms, but I think Eberron is the better choice. There are going to be a lot of people who will tell you that I am wrong and a lot of people who will tell you that I am right, but look at the actual material before you make the call. Also look at the free stuff. What kind of support does WotC offer the realms on this site? Characters and stats mostly with a bit of window dressing mostly in the form of important NPCs. Sure, sometimes there is a good adventure idea in there, but when I was trying to be a FR DM I hardly ever found anything useful in those articles (not to mention I sold every last FR book when Eberron came out. And I had every 3rd edition book. I haven't looked back once). What does WotC offer Eberron players? Dragonshard articles. I think that they speak for themselves. It is your call, but I think you are going to have more than enough information on this site alone to make the right one for you.
Marshall Stone 09-07-04, 04:34 AM	Quick Answer: The Forgotten Realms setting has MANY more books relating to it because it has indeed been around years longer. Eberron in relation has for all intents and purposes "just" come out. Deciding whether or not to game in the FR setting or the Eberron setting IMO depends on what kind of game you want to run. They both have thier own flavors to them. IMO the FR setting is one of THE most interesting setting with a VAST wealth of opportunity to role play. You can practically play Any kind of race/sub-race/class combination there is. However it's big, my biggest problem when playing was deciding just Where to begin and the like. Eberron is different. If you start now, it's kind of like getting in on the ground floor of a new business. Eberron has a Distinctly different flavor to it than the FR realms. And it's well thought out. The new Races are particularly appealing; my favorite being the Changeling. I liken it to discovering a new land. I would have advised you to learn more about both settings from the Wizards site and by reading posts here on the board before haveing purchased either setting. And since you're having doubts let me advise you to do that now.
Snooze 09-07-04, 09:50 AM	As others have mentioned, it all depends on what you want from your campaign setting. I've played plenty of Forgotten Realms, and am going to be playing in an Eberron campaign starting this week. Here are what I consider pros and cons for the two settings: Forgotten Realms pros: - This setting has a long history with TSR/Wizards of the Coast, and most gamers are familiar with it already. If you've played even a moderate number of computer RPGs in the past 10 years, you've probably played some Forgotten Realms. - Since it has such a storied history, this setting is very well defined. If you want books on particulars, they are out there. Want some info on Waterdeep? It's there. Need some rules on the Zhents? It's there. - Forgotten Realms is really the core of what D&D is about. Faerun is a land of elves and dwarves, orcs and dragons. This is pure high fantasy. Eberron pros: - This is a new, exciting realm that a lot of veteran players are starting to play now. Some of the folks I'm playing with now are D&D veterans, and this new world has infused some excitement that Forgotten Realms wouldn't be able to. - The Eberron source book, which is out now, is an outline of the world as a whole. This means you, the DM, can decide for yourself what the particulars are like. Maybe there's a powerful Rogue's Guild that operates throughout Thrane called the Brothers of the Red Blade, and the players have been tasked with finding their leader? It's up to you to shape the world however you choose. - The setting is not your typical D&D setting. There is magic of a new sort here - magic that emulates technology. There are airships, there's a lightning rail, there are artificers who make an industry of creating magical trinkets for everyone. Sure, there are still dwarves and halflings and ogres, but there are also Warforged - living constructs made of magic and steel, which the player can play! Anyway, the point is that one isn't better than the other. It's up to you and your players to decide what you want to play. As I said, my group is about to start an Eberron campaign, and we're very excited to play in a new world. Decide which one interests you and go for it.
Saurenda 09-07-04, 10:30 AM	The right decision would have been to introduce prospective gamers to the www.wizards.com/dnd site, and let them judge for themselves and put it to a vote within the prospective gaming group. Dragonshard Articles and the The good old days of Fauren articles can help you decide. Forgotten Realms only has more support sinc eit has been out since 2.0, and then some. This has novels and suppliment books. Eberron barely came out a few months ago. We are getting our first few suppliments for it next month and next year. It will take some patience to utlize all that you want from Eberron. To answer your question on gaming I myself am over run with applicants to play in my onlone and real life Eberron game and I just announced them two days ago last sunday. so much so that we played that night when I felt it out have been odd to do so without a full group. We had 4 players and 3 lurkers throughout the game on IRC. FR does have a bit more involvement of NPCs and Gods. Eberron requires the players to make intelligent decisions and figure thing sout for themselves. No one will come to the players rescues for them. They are the heroes. Period. Even if there are published works heroes die after a time or actually retire. Unlike Elminister who Gods willing only has 40,000 years left to go before he bites the dust, or finally ascends into Godhood. Anything in Dnd is in Fr and Eberron. There isn't a monster unqiue to either setting. Everything has a place in both. That's all I can offer ya guy. Sorry for the bias on Elminister. 400 years is a bit much for a human. Let the poor guy retire already Mystria! Action/Fantasy and adventure, or High fantasy and Adventure. You cannot choose wrong, no matter the choice. Good possiblities exsist in both.
ENHenry 09-07-04, 12:38 PM	It depends on what you want out of the game. If you wanted a game that has currently tons of back support material, Eberron is NOT yet it. Give it a couple of years for people to build up fan material, WotC to produce more supplements, and gamers to end current campaigns and take up new ones. Not everyone drops their current campaign the moment something new comes out. Second, If you want a new game, with an enthused and charged fan base, and you want to get in on the ground floor of said campaign, making your own material to supplement, then Eberron is definitely for you! Eberron also has the advantage of having many 1930's pulp-fiction style analogies to tie in to, encouraging over-the-top plotlines, high action, and moral grey areas in ways that Faerun cannot, just due to its very established design. As for support for Eberron, look on the www.wizards.com/eberron web site for Keith's Dragonshards articles for in-depth pockets of lore, look for two fan initiatives, the Breland Ledger and the Korranberg Chronicle for adventure seeds, and keep watch for the Whispers of the Vampire's Blade (out now, I think), Grasp of the Emerald Claw (in February of 2005, I believe), and the Sharn city sourcebook, due in November. Stuff is coming, but it's taking time. All those people who used to gripe about WotC's "overly fast" product release schedule ought to listen to the Eberron fans to see the REAL difference between the old TSR and WotC. :)
Greyson 09-07-04, 12:55 PM	While Penguin's initial post sounds suspiciously like a troll, I too will answer anyway. Both of these settings are awesome and both are certainly well worth the money spent to buy them. Forgotten Realms is a D&D mainstay and Ed Greenwood has turned it into a phenomenal world that is unrivaled in RPG fantasy settings. I like to think of Forgotten Realms as the older, experienced and grown-up big brother of Eberron. You will never go wrong investing in Forgotten Realms - it's a tried and true classic. And Eberron is just as exciting, intriquing and unique as its big brother. I think of Eberron as the little brother, new to the world - young, ready to spreads his wings and full of new potential and promise. No, you will not go wrong investing in Eberron, nor will your hard-earned dollars be ill-spent on Forgotten Realms. They are both fascinating, magical worlds with immense potential for fun, fear and all the in-betweens. Too many people think the two camps are in competition, that one threatens the other. It just is not so. Eberron and Forgotten Realms are brothers from the same parent. Respect both settings, each for its uniqueness and individual flair. I say buy them both, you will not go wrong with either.
DwarvinJedi 09-07-04, 08:53 PM	I just have to say that I am so glad that no one here as yet done any flaming, as I expected as soon as seeing the title. And now my opinion on the matter: Both settings are great!, I love Eberron and I really really like FR, and they just make different styles of play more accesible,(as opposed to saying that in Eberron you will always get pulp action and drama, and in FR, you will always get some sort of classic fantasy) but, I believe that the $40 that I hocked out for the Eberron book, was the best money I have spent in a while, and am trying to get my friends interested, (so far am have only gotten the support of two out of three, and am planning on running an online game, that has a few slots open if you want(though it may take a while))
Edymnion 09-07-04, 09:08 PM	Let me put it this way. I bought the 3.0 Core Rulebooks the day they came out, literally. I have not bought a SINGLE D&D book at full price since then. They have all been from resale shops. Every one of them. After previewing Eberron, I ran out and bought it, full price. I didn't even pay full price for my Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Eberron is just that damned good. Way I see it, this setting can only go one of two ways. It will either flop, or it will become the biggest setting WotC has ever produced for third edition. I simply can't see it taking a road of mediocrity. I'm ground floor, baby, and I'm riding this pony all the way to the top!
Bubba333 09-07-04, 09:53 PM	At the risk of repeating the others... Forgotten Realms is YEARS older than Eberron and in many ways caters to a different crowd. I for one didn't start playing D&D UNTIL Eberron, however I do see the allure of the Forgotten Realms. There are only three Eberron products so far, two being adventures, so it's rather early in the game (pun intended). As many have mentioned it's all a matter of taste and I wouldn't worry about buying Eberron and being unhappy.
The_Declaration 09-07-04, 10:27 PM	well, choosing amont the two is really only a matter of personal taste, since both settings are really good in what they're trying to achieve. FR are really the ultimate high fantasy setting, I like to call it a "playable Middle Earth". Eberron is... Eberron. Kinda Fritz Leiber meets Steampunk, Indiana Jones and Casablanca. Know what I mean? no. ok. Well what bothers me is that it sounds like you have the book in your hands, and you don't know if you made the right choice. So, just try to ask yourself: "Do I love it?". About publishing policy, FR are really the dying w****, loads of books already released, glorious past but blurry future. Its golden age is probably behind us now. Though it might survive during...5, 10 years? who knows? On the other hand, Eberron is a young gun, fresh and new, and it's exciting to be in the wagon, cause everything has yet to be written. The setting is gonna have an incredible development in the coming years. I see it as a positive point, but you could prefer to have 100 sourcebooks behind you than in front of you. So, up to you!
stembolt 09-07-04, 10:33 PM	FR does have piles and piles of rule books. And Eberron is a decent setting. FR is a pure waste of money if you are starting out. However there is not a dichotomy here. You do not have to choose Eberron or FR. There are many third party worlds, and for the most part they are all at least as good as FR. Or you could make your own world.
ChrisTheS 09-07-04, 10:46 PM	If I read you right, and you've already bought Eberron, I'd say keep it. If you bought it for purposes of running a game, run the game, do your best to hook the players to it, and you'll have done your part to ensure that WotC keeps supporting it and it eventually ends up with as much associated product as the Realms (although personally I hope that they're a little more circumspect when it comes to area sourcebooks, because I don't have that much money). If you bought it just to play... well, that's a bit more difficult. I bought it to run and I still haven't got a group to run it with, because one group has one player who will play nothing but Realms (because he isn't a real gamer, just a Drizzt groupie) and the other of which has something like twenty games running simultaneously and so there's no room to fit another one in. Chances are, I'm not alone in this state of game shortage. Hopefully, once the setting has had more of a chance to prove its mettle, this unfortunate situation will change. Personally, I like Eberron. I absolutely loathe the Realms, for reasons of my own (which I will not elaborate upon). What you think is up to you, but if I were in your shoes, there'd be no question which one I'd stick with.
Distorted Penguin 09-07-04, 11:08 PM	My initial post wasn't meant to sound like that. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I appreciate the help from all of you, although I do feel like an idiot after reading my post again. Now, since I've decided I'm keeping the Eberron campaign setting, might anyone have an AIM or IRC game running in this setting so I can see how it differs from your average campaign?
Saurenda 09-07-04, 11:13 PM	My initial post wasn't meant to sound like that. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I appreciate the help from all of you, although I do feel like an idiot after reading my post again. Now, since I've decided I'm keeping the Eberron campaign setting, might anyone have an AIM or IRC game running in this setting so I can see how it differs from your average campaign? My irc game is 8pm eastern and you are welcome to lurk. Check the breland ledger for other games. ChristheS, Megatron and others on these boards you can Private message to find out thier time. Don't worry about the intial message, I myself did the same thing with fauren, because of the reactions I saw on thier side of the boards. It takes a while before one learns to write online without being misinterpreted. I myself am still trying.
ChrisTheS 09-07-04, 11:14 PM	I'm about to start one, although if you're looking for a 'normal' GM then you'd probably better look elsewhere. I have incredibly lax standards regarding rules, setting canon, and what I'm willing to let players get away with. If this doesn't bother you, feel free to PM me.
Bubba333 09-07-04, 11:58 PM	My initial post wasn't meant to sound like that. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I appreciate the help from all of you, although I do feel like an idiot after reading my post again. Now, since I've decided I'm keeping the Eberron campaign setting, might anyone have an AIM or IRC game running in this setting so I can see how it differs from your average campaign? Dude! Don't feel like an idiot and no offense at all. I've been gaming for YEARS but just started D&D because of Eberron. I've been here time and again asking question after question and the folks here have been wonderful. One really cool thing about you starting with Eberron is that you're starting with something new. You've come in at the beginning and will be able to slowly absorb the setting as it's released. BTW, what attracted you to Eberron in the first place?
Distorted Penguin 09-08-04, 03:06 AM	I'm not new to D&D, just the Eberron campaign setting. If that's what you meant, then disregard that comment. The main thing that caught my attention were the Dragonmarks and the way magic is used through out the world.
Artur King of the Britons 09-08-04, 04:53 AM	It depends on what you want out of the game. If you wanted a game that has currently tons of back support material, Eberron is NOT yet it. Give it a couple of years for people to build up fan material, WotC to produce more supplements, and gamers to end current campaigns and take up new ones. yes but look at the quality/decency of the recent FR books (yes i bought them because I have more money than sense), i have never gone "I wished i hadnt bought an Eberron product", i sadly cannot say the same for the complete carp that is the FR product line, even if i do run an adventure in Chult, Serpent Kingdoms does nothing for me as a GM but add more crunchiness to a campaign world that honestly stopped needing crunchiness a decade ago. Sometimes it is nice to get a book that doesnt need 30 spells, 20 prestige classes (many, many of them overpowered) and 40 overpowered feats, yes eberron has good feats, one or two may even be as good as regional feats (though I doubt it). This may sound like I dont like the FR setting, when I in fact love it, the problem I have is that 90% of the recent books have not been needed, and have not really added anything to any campaign I have ever run. The point I am trying to make is that some DMs like to have some say in their world, run an adventure in a part of the world not detailed to the Nth degree and to have heroes who can't be squashed flat by the numerous 50th level characters that seem to sit in every pub in every village.
Greyson 09-08-04, 10:33 AM	One really cool thing about you starting with Eberron is that you're starting with something new. You've come in at the beginning and will be able to slowly absorb the setting as it's released. This is one of the reasons I chose to get involved with Eberron. Of course it helps that Eberron is just awesome. I think it is very, very exciting to be in on the ground floor of a new fantasy world's setting. Like Bubba said, we are all here at the start, and we do not have to play catch up. It's a nice feeling to be here at the beginning. :)
Bubba333 09-08-04, 11:01 AM	It's a daunting feeling to play catch-up! :eek:
LordofIllusions 09-09-04, 01:19 PM	If your looking for something complete, and fun, now buy Forgotten Realms. Eberron is new but it is not complete, as of yet. For instance, I bought the Eberron Campaign Setting some time ago but have not started the first adventure(In the back of the book.) as of yet. Why not ? Well the adventure begins in Sharn and there is no map detailing Sharn in the Eberron Campaign Setting, as a matter of fact there are no fold out maps at all. Although it is a good setting it seems incomplete, Forgotten Realms on the other hand has a full fold out color map(Which does not require the consumer to buy another product to just get the map that should have been in the original product.), and many add-ons that can help you with your game. Eberron is good but Forgotten Realms is complete. I had the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting long before Eberron even came out. I must say out of the many settings I have(Ravenloft, DragonLance, Greyhawk, etc.) the FRCS is the setting of the highest quality. ~~~
eRaz0r 09-09-04, 01:56 PM	Of course the lack of maps actually appeals to me. When you watch a movie, do you care what streets the characters take to get from A to B ? Do they waste screen time showing them pouring over a street index or MapQuest and getting directions ? Not unless it advances the plot. So basically, stuff happens where it happens and the PCs are either there when it does or they're not. A Map sometimes just gets in the way. FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket. When your players can quote the history of obscure NPCs who you haven't even decided are even in your version of the world, you know you've got your job cut out. I like the fact that Eberron has a rich history, but one that is not set in stone. I like the fact that my character doesn't know much about it (and it's fitting, since I'm a 2 year old warforged in this game) THere's a sense of wonder and discovery opening up before me as a player (and a sense of freedom as a DM I never got from FR).
LordofIllusions 09-09-04, 02:57 PM	When you watch a movie, do you care what streets the characters take to get from A to B ? Do they waste screen time showing them pouring over a street index or MapQuest and getting directions ? Not unless it advances the plot. So basically, stuff happens where it happens and the PCs are either there when it does or they're not. A Map sometimes just gets in the way. LoL! 1. A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. Take for instance, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings , no you do not see them "pouring over a street index or MapQuest(Those things did not even exist. Paper maps did.)" but Tolkien did have to map out the world before it could be made believable. This is the case with any setting. 2. Eberron does have a map of Sharn(It just has not been released yet.) so I guess you will stop liking it once the map comes out since maps just "get in the way" ? Also, the new map(which will be canon not the one you make up.) may differ greatly from your map which will make your world inconsistent with the actual Eberron gaming world. 3. The first adventure begins where ? In Sharn. So when they finally release the Sharn accessory your "job is going to be cut out for you" there as well. Just try explaining to a player why the map made by the creator of the Eberron Campaign Setting is different from your homemade map. :rolleyes: Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket. I have the Eberron Campaign Setting and guess what ? In each campaign setting stuff has happened there, and there are maps(albeit bad ones in the Eberron Campaign Setting) to show you where and a history that tells you when(Example: The Last War. Check out the Eberron timeline in your EBCS). Why ? Because it is a CAMPAIGN SETTING. A pre-generated world with NPCs, places, maps, and an overall history of its own that you did not create. The Eberron Campaign Setting is excrutiatingly detailed as well and the events in the module are very detailed so what's your beef ? Just say I like new(New as in just placed on the shelf.) things and be done with it. ~~~
eRaz0r 09-09-04, 07:15 PM	1/ Not every movie is a fantasy movie. By concentrating on poking fun at my sardonic example of using Mapquest to find one's way to the action, you have missed the point and demonstrated a singular lack of a sense of humour at the same time. 2/ Tolkein had a map showing the setting, just as Eberron does. However, I don't recall too many maps of Minas Tirith, the trail they took through Khazad-Dum, the footpaths of the deep woods, or a 10' squared overlay of Mount Doom, or a street directory for downtown Bree. There's a limit to the amount of detail that is useful, after which it's just fluff, or worse: fodder for rules-lawyery types to try to use against you. 2a/ I think you'll find most movies are *not* concerned about maps. They're concerned about scenes. 3/ I said Maps get in the way - not that I will dislike a setting with maps. (I've got this man of straw here you can set alight, if you'd prefer that to actually addressing anything I've said). What I hate is when the players say things like "Oh, I've got a map of Waterdeep and I know there's a Wizards Tower and Magic Shoppe down the block from us!" I also hate it when the players feel the desparate need to ask stuff like "How long is the corridor? I've got to map it!" The time spent mapping and referring to maps is wasted in my games because the PCs location is not in itself important. IF they need to get somewhere in time, they do! If the game will be better served by a journey fraught with peril under time constraints, then it will be so. If they need to explore to find the Hidden Jungle Temple, then this is resolved through scenes of roleplaying and some die rolls. Games which go "Ok, you're at a crossroads . which way do you go ?" are the height of boredom to me and most people I've played with. So I repeat, the Map just gets in the way. 4/ I never said I'd make up my own map. I won't use any at all. (see Point 3). I'll use the conventions of good game mastering and story telling instead. (Oh, and don't bring up stuff like railroading. The PCs can always go somewhere else, but I'm not marrying them to the Overland Travel rates unless absolutely necessary). 5/ The basis of Eberron is very fluid. They've already published three different set of stats for the Lord of the Blades (or so I've heard). They've thrown open the door to customization of the setting to your needs as a DM. There are entirely too many FR Fanboys who seem to think that the dictates of some game designer who isn't there over-rules their own gaming group and the plans of their DM. Eberron is designed from the beginning to be less stentorian. Oh, and guess what -I've got the Eberron Campaign Setting, and I really like it too. Aren't we special? Lets hug :rolleyes:
LordofIllusions 09-13-04, 02:49 PM	1/ Not every movie is a fantasy movie. From my previous post: 1. A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. Take for instance, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings , no you do not see them "pouring over a street index or MapQuest(Those things did not even exist. Paper maps did.)" but Tolkien did have to map out the world before it could be made believable. This is the case with any setting. What does "every movie not being a fantasy movie" have to do with my response as quoted above ? Lord of the Rings was an example, as proven in the aforementioned quote(See above.), being that Eberron and the Dungeons and Dragons game as a whole is part of the fantasy genre. Thus the reason why Lord of the Rings was used as an example. concentrating on poking fun at my sardonic example of using Mapquest to find one's way to the action, you have missed the point and demonstrated a singular lack of a sense of humour at the same time. The majority of my response on said subject does not concentrate on the above(poking fun at your example, which was a bad one.). This can be verified by reading the post(my previous post) in question. As a matter of fact only one small sentence mentions your mapquest example. Here it is: "pouring over a street index or MapQuest(Those things did not even exist. Paper maps did.)" Try again. 2/ Tolkein had a map showing the setting, just as Eberron does. However, I don't recall too many maps of Minas Tirith, the trail they took through Khazad-Dum, the footpaths of the deep woods, or a 10' squared overlay of Mount Doom, or a street directory for downtown Bree. There's a limit to the amount of detail that is useful, after which it's just fluff, or worse: fodder for rules-lawyery types to try to use against you. 1: Eberron has a detailed map showing the city of Sharn, which was what we were speaking of in this portion of my post. A repost from LordofIllusions: "2. Eberron does have a map of Sharn(It just has not been released yet.) so I guess you will stop liking it once the map comes out since maps just "get in the way" ? Also, the new map(which will be canon not the one you make up.) may differ greatly from your map which will make your world inconsistent with the actual Eberron gaming world." 2: If Eberron uses a map(of Sharn), pregenerated detailed NPCs(Such as the Lord of the Blades, Merrix D'Cannith, or the young girl that is the "Keeper of the Flame"), and detailed history(It actually takes up a couple of pages in the EBCS) which was what you claim is one of the "banes" of Forgotten Realms is it not the bane of Eberron as well ? Or are we dealing with a bias towards FR in particular ? 2a/ I think you'll find most movies are *not* concerned about maps. They're concerned about scenes. Where in response # 2 of my post have I mentioned that most movies are concerned about maps ? This should be placed under response # 1 of your post. Also I never said that every movie is concerned about maps. My exact words were and I quote: " A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. " Are you responding to my posts or someone else's ? 3/ I said Maps get in the way - not that I will dislike a setting with maps. (I've got this man of straw here you can set alight, if you'd prefer that to actually addressing anything I've said). What I hate is when the players say things like "Oh, I've got a map of Waterdeep and I know there's a Wizards Tower and Magic Shoppe down the block from us!" I also hate it when the players feel the desparate need to ask stuff like "How long is the corridor? I've got to map it!" The time spent mapping and referring to maps is wasted in my games because the PCs location is not in itself important. IF they need to get somewhere in time, they do! If the game will be better served by a journey fraught with peril under time constraints, then it will be so. If they need to explore to find the Hidden Jungle Temple, then this is resolved through scenes of roleplaying and some die rolls. Games which go "Ok, you're at a crossroads . which way do you go ?" are the height of boredom to me and most people I've played with. So I repeat, the Map just gets in the way. My post said: "3. The first adventure begins where ? In Sharn. So when they finally release the Sharn accessory your "job is going to be cut out for you" there as well. Just try explaining to a player why the map made by the creator of the Eberron Campaign Setting is different from your homemade map. " You have not debunked any of the facts within this portion of my post. Again, there is a map of Sharn coming out which is very detailed. Also, your initial post claims that the maps, NPCs, etc. of FR are its bane as well as its boon. Remember this ?: FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket. Saying that maps(that show you where.) and history(that tells you when.) are a "bane" to a setting leans just a bit toward dislike. The definition of bane for eRazor: Main Entry: 1bane Pronunciation: 'bAn Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bana; akin to Old High German bano death Look here----->a source of harm or ruin : CURSE <national frontiers have been more of a bane than a boon for mankind -- D. C. Thomson> Thus you are claiming that the detail of the maps, history, NPCs, etc. has caused FR's ruin but at the same time your beloved Eberron also has detailed maps(such as the Sharn map that is coming out.), history(Last war anyone?), NPCs, etc. Know this, when one is dealing with a pregenerated setting you are going to have things like detailed maps, pregenerated NPCs, detailed history, etc. because it is pregenerated. This is why it is known as a campaign setting; most of the work is already done for you(to an extent.). The world already exists with locations, history, people, etc. 4/ I never said I'd make up my own map. I won't use any at all. (see Point 3). I'll use the conventions of good game mastering and story telling instead. (Oh, and don't bring up stuff like railroading. The PCs can always go somewhere else, but I'm not marrying them to the Overland Travel rates unless absolutely necessary). If you own the Eberron Campaign Setting and are having them journey within the world of Eberron on one of the continents that exist within Eberron; your already using a map(The maps that are in the EBCS.). Basically if your playing within a pre-generated setting your using maps, mechanics, NPCs, history, etc. that was created by someone else. So unless your just using elements of Eberron and not actually having your players role play within the Eberron Campaign Setting your using the above. 5/ The basis of Eberron is very fluid. They've already published three different set of stats for the Lord of the Blades (or so I've heard). They've thrown open the door to [i]customization of the setting to your needs as a DM. There are entirely too many FR Fanboys who seem to think that the dictates of some game designer who isn't there over-rules their own gaming group and the plans of their DM. Eberron is designed from the beginning to be less stentorian. Your arguement is baseless and inconsistent. What I was trying to do, and have done, is point out that the very things(detailed maps, NPCs[heck you even just mentioned one "the Lord of the Blades"] you are hating on FR about exist in your beloved Eberron as well. Oh, and guess what -I've got the Eberron Campaign Setting, and I really like it too. (sarcasm)This is surprising since you obviously have no idea what is within the very book that you own.(/sarcasm) ~~~
Doctor X 09-13-04, 08:24 PM	I think it is very, very exciting to be in on the ground floor of a new fantasy world's setting. Like Bubba said, we are all here at the start, and we do not have to play catch up. It's a nice feeling to be here at the beginning. :) I know exactly what you mean. This is one of the main reasons why, when I finally decided to buy a campaign setting two months ago, I decided to go with Eberron. I haven't ever played D&D aside from personal home-made settings. DM's I've had before have done it, and I've been doing it since I started DMing myself. But looking through Setting books at the store sparked my interest... and for a while, I was pretty sure I would go with Forgotten Realms. With all its support and existing supplements, in addition to the classic fantasy feel. I'm a big Tolkien fan, and I love reading about detailed worlds with rich history. This was one of the main reasons I wanted Forgotten Realms. But in the end, I went with Eberron, and I don't regret it. The first reason was like Greyson mentioned above... When I really thought about it, Forgotten Realms seemed very daunting. As much as I would enjoy learning more about it... I'd need to spend the next few years of my life reading before I could firmly grasp all that it has to offer. Eberron is different. It's new and promising, and it doesn't take much work yet to get caught up with most of its fans... and once you've caught up, you'll be among a whole community of people who can help you adapt your campaign as the setting evolves. My second reason for choosing Eberron was the more PC-centric tone. The problem with worlds like in Forgotten Realms is that they follow Tolkien's example of rich history and wondrous worlds being valued over individual characters. This is lots of fun for the DM, I think... They get to act out stories in an amazing world... but what about the players? When do they get to do something interesting themselves, on their own merit? How to be the heroes when there's epic NPC's running around everywhere? That's my favorite thing about Eberron so far. Players take their characters on rip-roarin', butt-kickin' adventures. They shine out above the world, and in the end, when their adventuring careers are over, they'll be remembered as much more than small ripples in some vast history-- like most would be in Forgotten Realms, overshadowed by people like Elminster. They get to be legends themselves-- the ones who saved the world, instead of some group of NPC's the Setting designers made up for their novels.
Methos of Aundair 09-14-04, 09:25 AM	I've been playing FR since 2nd ed and enjoy the setting. When the 3rd edition FRCS came out I started up a campaign and played in several, the main problem I noticed was every player knew everything about the world. NPC's, their stats, the name of every town and secret society in that town. If the DM decided to throw in a magical item (such as a Moonblade) everyone at the table knew its powers and capabilities. It grew very tiresome. I'm running an Eberron campaign now and loving it. Though the players also own the books they don't really know the world and find it very enjoyable. And since the Eberron book isn't very specific about information (allowing the DM to majorly modify it to his/her wishes) it really keeps the players guessing. I am very happy with ECS and haven't picked up a FRCS book in a while.
LordofIllusions 09-14-04, 09:42 AM	I've been playing FR since 2nd ed and enjoy the setting. When the 3rd edition FRCS came out I started up a campaign and played in several, the main problem I noticed was every player knew everything about the world. NPC's, their stats, the name of every town and secret society in that town. If the DM decided to throw in a magical item (such as a Moonblade) everyone at the table knew its powers and capabilities. It grew very tiresome. At the time I am running a Dragonlance campaign utilizing the Key of Destiny module by Sovereign Press. My players do not know what is to occur(in the campaign) nor do they know about the various magical items(within the campaign) why ? Because they do not own the module. You have problem players if they are blabbing to you about every items' powers. Just as they bought the FR books they can and will buy the Eberron books if that is the kind of players you are DMing for. The problem does not rest in the setting it rests with your players. What do you do when they know a character's level or the AC of his armor ? Do they yell out "You're only a 3rd-level Fighter with + 2 added because of your armor!" or do they role play as they should be doing ? Knowing that there is a difference between Player knowledge and character knowledge ? I hope you are not using any history that is different than the one written in the EBCS because they are going to rip you about that too! LoL! I could see it now; them pelting you with dice because you screwed up the timeline. Lord forbid if you use the adventure that is in the back of the book that they own; they are going to make you the player while they DM the campaign. :devil: ~~~
MoogleEmpMog 09-14-04, 02:09 PM	There's a huge difference between knowing the overview of a setting from a glance at the book and knowing the intricacies of the setting, its major protagonists, its power bases and its magic. Give Eberron 10 years to develop a canon (although not, if the statements out of WotC are to be believed, a metaplot), a roster of beloved NPCs and a spellbook or two of signature magic and it, too, will start to gather players who live and breathe the setting, like the Realms has. And some of those players will invariably try to rules-lawyer the DM by quoting the canon of the setting. But that's in the future. For now, players are still getting to know Eberron. They may know who Merrix d'Cannith is, but they haven't read about him in a dozen novels and twice as many supplements. They may have read the Lord of Blades' official stats in Dungeon, but if so they've also read that the LoB is explicitly intended to advance along with the party.
LordofIllusions 09-15-04, 11:50 AM	There's a huge difference between knowing the overview of a setting from a glance at the book and knowing the intricacies of the setting, its major protagonists, its power bases and its magic. Give Eberron 10 years to develop a canon (although not, if the statements out of WotC are to be believed, a metaplot), a roster of beloved NPCs and a spellbook or two of signature magic and it, too, will start to gather players who live and breathe the setting, like the Realms has. And some of those players will invariably try to rules-lawyer the DM by quoting the canon of the setting. But that's in the future. For now, players are still getting to know Eberron. They may know who Merrix d'Cannith is, but they haven't read about him in a dozen novels and twice as many supplements. They may have read the Lord of Blades' official stats in Dungeon, but if so they've also read that the LoB is explicitly intended to advance along with the party. So they may have read about some of the NPCs, big deal. The Lord of the Blades has been talked about in various products already as well(And Eberron has not even been out that long;just imagine how much he will be touched on in the next year or so.). A Forgotten Realms NPC can be advanced along with the DMs campaign the same as an Eberron NPC can. The Eberron novel line is in the works now. The Eberron online video game gets released next year. That is going to give your loud mouth players alot to hack on you about, if your weak that is. Again the problem is with DMs that are too weak to tell their controlling players when enough is enough. IMO if your too weak to let a player know that they should not be telling you how to do everything in your campaign(aside from a few ideas to make the campaign stronger.), you should step from behind the DM screen. ~~~
eRaz0r 09-15-04, 08:18 PM	From my previous post: What does "every movie not being a fantasy movie" have to do with my response as quoted above ? Lord of the Rings was an example, as proven in the aforementioned quote(See above.), being that Eberron and the Dungeons and Dragons game as a whole is part of the fantasy genre. Thus the reason why Lord of the Rings was used as an example. The majority of my response on said subject does not concentrate on the above(poking fun at your example, which was a bad one.). This can be verified by reading the post(my previous post) in question. As a matter of fact only one small sentence mentions your mapquest example. Here it is: "pouring over a street index or MapQuest(Those things did not even exist. Paper maps did.)" Try again. Puh-lease. This holier-than-thou attitude isn't winning you any friends. You spent time on my example, while missing the point. The point you tried to make was that movies (of all kinds) were concerned with stuff that you need maps for. (such as locations, and how to get from A to B). You kindly quote yourself again " A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. " But how many movies care at all about these things ? For every movie you name that pays any attention at all to how long it takes for a character to get from A to B, I'll name a dozen more that shows one scene following another with nothing more than a casual nod to the actual location of the protagonists. For example. When the hero in a modern film has a shootout with some goons on a boat in one scene, the very next scene he might be back at the police station reporting to his boss. After that he might have to track them to the airport. The relative locations of these things and the time it takes to get there are irrelevant to the plot in most instances. The protagonist is just there when he needs to be. 1: Eberron has a detailed map showing the city of Sharn, which was what we were speaking of in this portion of my post. A repost from LordofIllusions: "2. Eberron does have a map of Sharn(It just has not been released yet.) so I guess you will stop liking it once the map comes out since maps just "get in the way" ? Also, the new map(which will be canon not the one you make up.) may differ greatly from your map which will make your world inconsistent with the actual Eberron gaming world." I guess you'll suddenly love it then, if I'll hate it. That moronic argument is absurd. You prove nothing. It's the equivalent of saying "Nyahh Nyahh". 2: If Eberron uses a map(of Sharn), pregenerated detailed NPCs(Such as the Lord of the Blades, Merrix D'Cannith, or the young girl that is the "Keeper of the Flame"), and detailed history(It actually takes up a couple of pages in the [i]EBCS) which was what you claim is one of the "banes" of Forgotten Realms is it not the bane of Eberron as well ? Or are we dealing with a bias towards FR in particular ? The history is hardly detailed, more of an overview. Furthermore, as yet it hasn't moved forward. The thing I've disliked about FR (which some love) is that the setting is continually updated as the timeline continues. If one were to start a game in FR back when that setting came out, ones campaign will have diverged from Canon over the intervening years, as the published events became inconsistent with your PCs actions. Say you've got a game where one of the PCs was related to the King of some FR country. If a calamity befell the King and his family in your campaign, and your PC became King in his stead, you would now have to reconcile any differences between future publications and your campaign. This makes some things problematic. With FR, there's just so much to reconcile. Yes, Eberron might suffer from that. Just as if you'd changed the history in your campaign. Furthermore, I do dislike having detailed statistics (even class levels), because as a player, I'd rather not know that the Lord of the Blades is meant to be a F4/Art6/WFJ 5 or whatever. The good thing is that I've heard there are other sources which give him different stats, and that's an interesting choice for the design team to make : lending uncertainty so that meta-gaming encounters with him is harder for the players to do. It *encourages* the DM to be flexible with these NPCs. In many respects FR has the opposite feel to it. Again, these are my feelings. You cannot "prove" to me I don't feel them. Where in response # 2 of my post have I mentioned that most movies are concerned about maps ? This should be placed under response # 1 of your post. Also I never said that every movie is concerned about maps. My exact words were and I quote: " A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. " Are you responding to my posts or someone else's ? You quoted yourself : "Every movie is prepared..." Are you saying you misquoted yourself ? Or are you now saying you were initially wrong ? Are you even sure who you are ? :D Not every movie is so prepared. I challenge you to support your claim that it is. My post said: "3. The first adventure begins where ? In Sharn. So when they finally release the Sharn accessory your "job is going to be cut out for you" there as well. Just try explaining to a player why the map made by the creator of the Eberron Campaign Setting is different from your homemade map. " You have not debunked any of the facts within this portion of my post. Again, there is a map of Sharn coming out which is very detailed. What facts ? you're just attacking my own opinions and making yourself look foolish doing it. My opinion was simple : you don't need maps, detailed or otherwise, to have a good game. In fact, sometimes the more detail you have in a publication can get in the way of your own campaign. It contributes to the players expectations. You either have to succumb to those expectations, or change them from the outset of the campaign - which is where your work is cut out for you, since in FR you have more detail to deal with. Your "facts" are simply bluster and irrelevancies. Also, your initial post claims that the maps, NPCs, etc. of FR are its bane as well as its boon. Remember this ?: Saying that maps(that show you where.) and history(that tells you when.) are a "bane" to a setting leans just a bit toward dislike. The definition of bane for eRazor: I've snipped the dictionary definition, since I'm more than familiar with the word. Including a dictionary definition of a common word is pretty patronizing, don't you think? Certainly doesn't lend much credence to your argument, since it just makes you sound like a poor parlour magician attempting to misdirect from the actual discussion. "Umm. Look over there! Don't look at my argument, because, like my sleeve, it's really empty." Oh, and this numbering thing you're harping on... there was no guarantee that my points were addressing yours. I had a couple of points to make, and I numbered them for your ease of reading. Unfortunately they didn't correspond to your convenient numbers. So sorry. Thus you are claiming that the detail of the maps, history, NPCs, etc. has caused FR's ruin but at the same time your beloved Eberron also has detailed maps(such as the Sharn map that is coming out.), history(Last war anyone?), NPCs, etc. Don't forget that I referred to them as FR's boon as well. Do you need help looking up boon in the dictionary ? (See - I too can be patronizing. It takes very little effort, really.) Know this, when one is dealing with a pregenerated setting you are going to have things like detailed maps, pregenerated NPCs, detailed history, etc. because it is pregenerated. This is why it is known as a campaign setting; most of the work is already done for you(to an extent.). The world already exists with locations, history, people, etc. If you own the Eberron Campaign Setting and are having them journey within the world of Eberron on one of the continents that exist within Eberron; your already using a map(The maps that are in the EBCS.). Basically if your playing within a pre-generated setting your using maps, mechanics, NPCs, history, etc. that was created by someone else. So unless your just using elements of Eberron and not actually having your players role play within the Eberron Campaign Setting your using the above. But at the moment, the maps are an overview and have enough detail to help me, but not more than that. This allows me to fill in the gaps as they apply to my campaign. Remember, I said that "sometimes, they get in the way". Not that all maps are useless. If I've got a map of a city with general layout and major places, that can be quite handy. If I've got one with the name of every place and person's residence, that's too much detail to be of use. I have to make note of changes I make to reconcile them with future supplements. Your arguement is baseless and inconsistent. What I was trying to do, and have done, is point out that the very things(detailed maps, NPCs[heck you even just mentioned one "the Lord of the Blades"] you are hating on FR about exist in your beloved Eberron as well. Oh, and you've done so. If that had helped your argument, you'd be set. But it doesn't, so back to the drawing board for you. Oh - and while I do like Eberron, I play in both settings. I just wouldn't want to run a campaign in FR, for the reasons I gave. Those are my reasons, and they explain my feelings on the matter. They're not meant to persuade anyone why Eberron is better. I think the style is interesting and fresh and I'm happy to play with it. FR is tired and dull, and no amount of detail can ever change that. (sarcasm)This is surprising since you obviously have no idea what is within the very book that you own.(/sarcasm) You missed the bit where we hug. Ad hominem attacks and straw men dressed up as Reductio Ad Absurdum don't even win arguments on the internet... and remember when you argue on the internet, even when you win, you're still retarded :cool:
The Law 09-16-04, 07:58 AM	:rofl: Poor LoI, you really shouldn't take yourself so seriously. Nobody else does. We don't even know what you look like...
ENHenry 09-16-04, 09:37 AM	*after reading eRazor's and Lordof Illusions's Giganto-posts:* What was this fight about, again? :mymy: :confused:
LordofIllusions 09-16-04, 01:06 PM	LoL! Your post is full of faults; as always. Puh-lease. This holier-than-thou attitude isn't winning you any friends. Since when was the purpose of this debate to win friends ? Stay focused and you may learn something. You spent time on my example, while missing the point. The point you tried to make was that movies (of all kinds) were concerned with stuff that you need maps for. Incorrect. The point I was trying to make and did make was that the very things you fault Forgotten Realms for are present in your beloved Eberron. Read the quote below and see the truth. LordofIllusions:"Your arguement is baseless and inconsistent. What I was trying to do, and have done, is point out that the very things(detailed maps, NPCs[heck you even just mentioned one "the Lord of the Blades"] you are hating on FR about exist in your beloved Eberron as well." Again, whose posts are you responding to ? Your diversionary tactics may work when debating another but are in vain when dealing with LoI. But how many movies care at all about these things ? Every movie must be prepared(beforehand);A movie does not just appear out of the air. I said this before; here it is: "1. A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. Take for instance, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings , no you do not see them "pouring over a street index or MapQuest(Those things did not even exist. Paper maps did.)" but Tolkien did have to map out the world before it could be made believable. This is the case with any setting. " My post also said such things as how long it will take characters to get from point A to B , etc. are figured in beforehand. Every movie is prepared beforehand and thus not just made up on the spur of the moment. Each movie has a rough draft or layout before it comes to the movie screen. This is fact. In Dungeons and Dragons DMs layout towns and such on a map. In movies they may use a map or they may not; but every movie is prepared(also known as mapped out) beforehand. Noone just makes an on the spot decision and films it. What world do you live in ? every movie you name that pays any attention at all to how long it takes for a character to get from A to B, I'll name a dozen more that shows one scene following another with nothing more than a casual nod to the actual location of the protagonists. The movie is the finished result not the designing process itself. Again, what world do you live in where movies just drop out of the air with no preparation or layout beforehand. If that was possible there would be no need for a film crew, directors, etc. For example. When the hero in a modern film has a shootout with some goons on a boat in one scene, the very next scene he might be back at the police station reporting to his boss. After that he might have to track them to the airport. The relative locations of these things and the time it takes to get there are irrelevant to the plot in most instances. The protagonist is just there when he needs to be. Are we playing a modern game or are we playing Dungeons and Dragons ? Also the scenario in question had been prepared before it met the public eye. Ever heard of a set ? Well the person that goes back to the police station is actually on a set which by the way is lain out(mapped out) before it is actually constructed for use in the movie. This is part of that design process I spoke about before. I guess you'll suddenly love it then, if I'll hate it. That moronic argument is absurd. You prove nothing. It's the equivalent of saying "Nyahh Nyahh". Your debating skills are on the low. This is the post in question: "1: Eberron has a detailed map showing the city of Sharn, which was what we were speaking of in this portion of my post." Thus the thing that you claim is FR's bane(highly detailed) must also be Eberron's bane. Also, the above post in quotation is a response to your post which was and I quote: 2/ Tolkein had a map showing the setting, just as Eberron does. However, I don't recall too many maps of Minas Tirith, the trail they took through Khazad-Dum, the footpaths of the deep woods, or a 10' squared overlay of Mount Doom, or a street directory for downtown Bree. There's a limit to the amount of detail that is useful, after which it's just fluff, or worse: fodder for rules-lawyery types to try to use against you. This history is hardly detailed, more of an overview. And whom decides what is detailed and what is not you ? The history gives detailed events, places, people that served to enhance said history, etc. as yet it hasn't moved forward. Each one of the official modules that is released for the setting serves to make new history and to move the campaign setting forward. Thus Eberron is going the same route as Forgotten Realms(with history being made as time moves on.). Do you truly think that the official history of Eberron is limited to your puny gaming table. LoL. If so, think again. The company has already released products that serve to further the so called world of Eberron. Also known as " moving forward." Something I've disliked about FR (which some love) is that the setting is continually updated as the timeline continues. The setting of Eberron shall be updated as well. If you dislike it about FR you should dislike it when dealing with Eberron as well. If one were to start a game in FR back when that setting came out, ones campaign will have diverged from Canon over the intervening years, as the published events became inconsistent with your PCs actions. Say you've got a game where one of the PCs was related to the King of some FR country. If a calamity befell the King and his family in your campaign, and your PC became King in his stead, you would now have to reconcile any differences between future publications and your campaign. This makes some things problematic. Hmm, very true. Sounds alot like this:"2. Eberron does have a map of Sharn(It just has not been released yet.) so I guess you will stop liking it once the map comes out since maps just "get in the way" ? Also, the new map(which will be canon not the one you make up.) may differ greatly from your map which will make your world inconsistent with the actual Eberron gaming world." Yes, Eberron might suffer from that. Just as if you'd changed the history in your campaign. Furthermore, I do dislike having detailed statistics (even class levels), because as a player, I'd rather not know that the Lord of the Blades is meant to be a F4/Art6/WFJ 5 or whatever. The good thing is that I've heard there are other sources which give him different stats, and that's an interesting choice for the design team to make : lending uncertainty so that meta-gaming encounters with him is harder for the players to do. It *encourages* the DM to be flexible with these NPCs. In many respects FR has the opposite feel to it. Again, these are my feelings. You cannot "prove" to me I don't feel them. Are you inebriated at the time or are you just rambling ? The point is that now you have three(or possibly more) sets of official stats for the Lord of the Blades instead of one. Those stats, all three of them(making it even more inconsistent), are canon yours no matter how you rewrite them are not. It is pregenerated as are the stats in the FR campaign. The Lord of the Blades is a pregenerated characters with a pregenerated agenda, etc. Your arguement is ludicrous and inconsistent. Example: Your shaking your head at a white Gateway computer(Just because you claim you do not like the color white) only to go buy a white Mac. You quoted yourself : "Every movie is prepared..." Are you saying you misquoted yourself ? Or are you now saying you were initially wrong ? It is amazing how weak your debating skills are, truly. Here is the post in question in which I quoted myself: "Where in response # 2 of my post have I mentioned that most movies are concerned about maps ? This should be placed under response # 1 of your post. Also I never said that every movie is concerned about maps. My exact words were and I quote: " A movie does not just appear out of the air. Every movie is prepared and such things as how long it will take the characters to get from point A to B, the locations of various towns, the geography, etc.(All things that are touched on with a map.) is figured in beforehand. " Are you responding to my posts or someone else's ?" This was in response to this statement: 2a/ I think you'll find most movies are *not* concerned about maps. They're concerned about scenes. The above serves to support my statement not eradicate it. Surely you must know this ? What facts ? you're just attacking my own opinions and making yourself look foolish doing it. The below is is not an opinion; it is a statement: FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket. When your players can quote the history of obscure NPCs who you haven't even decided are even in your version of the world, you know you've got your job cut out. You are not even familiar with what you have said in your own posts and yet foolishly attempt to attack my own ? Your "facts" are simply bluster and irrelevancies. Only to one whom is incapable of seeing beyond their own biases. I've snipped the dictionary definition, since I'm more than familiar with the word. Including a dictionary definition of a common word is pretty patronizing, don't you think? Certainly doesn't lend much credence to your argument, since it just makes you sound like a poor parlour magician attempting to misdirect from the actual discussion. "Umm. Look over there! Don't look at my argument, because, like my sleeve, it's really empty." Your jokes are corny and a weak diversion. The definition proves that you do indeed dislike settings with detailed maps, or at least that is what you said by claiming it is a bane for FR. This debunks this portion of your post: 3/ I said Maps get in the way - not that I will dislike a setting with maps. Which goes against this: FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. Maps is clearly designated as part of FR's so called bane. So perhaps you should ask yourself the same question I asked you: "Are you responding to my posts or someone else's ?" Oh, and this numbering thing you're harping on... there was no guarantee that my points were addressing yours. I had a couple of points to make, and I numbered them for your ease of reading. Unfortunately they didn't correspond to your convenient numbers. So sorry. Window dressing. Don't forget that I referred to them as FR's boon as well. Do you need help looking up boon in the dictionary ? (See - I too can be patronizing. It takes very little effort, really.) And how does this eradicate the fact that you claimed maps, detail, etc. are it's bane ? You even went into detail about FR's bane: "FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket." The fact is you claimed that such things are FR's ruin. I did not say this, you did. You even went on later to say: "So I repeat, the Map just gets in the way." But at the moment, the maps are an overview and have enough detail to help me, but not more than that. But wait: "the Map just gets in the way." This allows me to fill in the gaps as they apply to my campaign. Remember, I said that "sometimes, they get in the way". Yes you did, at one point. But then afterwards you said: "So I repeat, the Map just gets in the way." Scroll back. If I've got a map of a city with general layout and major places, that can be quite handy. If I've got one with the name of every place and person's residence, that's too much detail to be of use. I have to make note of changes I make to reconcile them with future supplements. Again Eberron is coming out with detailed maps. Sharn shall be one of the first. Oh - and while I do like Eberron, I play in both settings. I just wouldn't want to run a campaign in FR, for the reasons I gave. Those are my reasons, and they explain my feelings on the matter. They're not meant to persuade anyone why Eberron is better. If they are not meant to "persuade anyone why Eberron is better.", why post on this thread at all ? The initial post is: "At the time of purchase, it seemed more interesting than Forgotten Realms. Granted, that might be due to the fact that most games I've played have been based off of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, but now that I think about it, I'm starting to wonder if I should have gotten the Forgotten Realms campaign setting instead. It seems as though more people are playing Forgotten Realms as opposed to Eberron, which worries me some what. I don't want to have trouble finding an Eberron campaign, or have trouble getting my players to play in it. It also seems as though the Forgotten Realms setting has more books relating to it. Is this because of the length of time Forgotten Realms has been out, or is it due to the fact that hardly anyone plays in Eberron? Now, I ask you, shall I get my money back and buy the Forgotten Realms setting, or will I be able to suffice with Eberron?" So you are trying to convince someone that Eberron is better; stop lying. The rest of your post does not even require my attention. Poor LoI, you really shouldn't take yourself so seriously. Nobody else does. We don't even know what you look like... *Comment thrown to the wind* ~~~
Saurenda 09-16-04, 01:22 PM	LoL! Your post is full of faults; as always. Since when was the purpose of this debate to win friends. Stay focused and you may learn something. So you are trying to convince someone that Eberron is better; stop lying. The rest of your post does not even require my attention. :mymy: Um, to put this thread back on course as someone who has played forgotten realms before Eberron I can honestly say that I did get my monies worth from the book. I did enjoy the house of dark consumption as well as other adventures against the Shades, and yes there is quite a bit mor ematerial I cannot even mention. I do not think anyone is trying to say Eberron is better, or forgotten realms is better. Peanut Butter has chuncky and creamy styles,(please excuse the poor anology ^^), niether of them is better. They are both still peanut butter. Eberron's new feel and interest are only a fraction of the reason I had bought it. The main reason I bought, and waited, and longed for Eberron was my FR GM told me we would play it. He told me we would give it a chance and he was excited about it. So I unwittingly went to the boards in march and am still here Oo; Now he has put the Fr campaign on hold and my old friends in Bing are playing in Ebb. They still play thier "bests" (best classes that suit them) game another night with another DM in FR. I'm not trying to learn anything here. I go elsewhere for learning. The boards arent that kind of place. I look here for people who like Dnd. If I learn something I swear it is by accident, just like if I spell something correctly. No one is lying guy. If a post doesn't require your attention you do not have to respond to it to prove anything. We believe your claims, we may not take them to heart, but they are just as valid as anyones. I may not be here to win friends, but I'm glad a few people on the boards still stay friendly when things are rough. Isn't that community? Thats what FR taught me. Work together as a party, and I brought that to Eberron. It's relative, right? :confused:
LordofIllusions 09-16-04, 01:28 PM	Question: Saurenda, Are you also eRazor(This is not meant to be nasty; it is a genuine question.) ? If not, the above post was not directed towards you at all. As a matter of fact I have a respect for poster's that are not biased towards certain settings and if they do have a bias they admit it openly and do not try to force their biased reasoning on others. On the other hand however, I have little respect for those whom attempt to pass their biases off as factual reasoning. Especially when the initial poster(the first poster) wanted a non biased response to his question. Also, I never said that his entire post did not require my attention. I did say: "The rest of your post does not even require my attention." ;) ~~~
eRaz0r 09-16-04, 01:49 PM	Ahh Lord Of Illusions. Still posting from your mothers basement. Do you realize how puerile you sound, accusing everyone who sides against you of being the same person posting under different aliases ? Your argument style is reminiscent of ELIZA. Except ELIZA does it better.
LordofIllusions 09-16-04, 01:52 PM	Ahh Lord Of Illusions. Still posting from your mothers basement. Nice. Has nothing to do with the debate; but nice. Do you realize how puerile you sound, accusing everyone who sides against you of being the same person posting under different aliases ? You must be referring to this question ? " Question: Saurenda, Are you also eRazor(This is not meant to be nasty; it is a genuine question.) ? If not, the above post was not directed towards you at all." The definition of "accuse" for eRazor: Main Entry: ac·cuse Pronunciation: &-'kyüz Function: verb Inflected Form(s): ac·cused; ac·cus·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Old French acuser, from Latin accusare to call to account, from ad- + causa lawsuit transitive senses 1 : to charge with a fault or offense : BLAME 2 : to charge with an offense judicially or by a public process intransitive senses : to bring an accusation - ac·cus·er /&-'kyü-z&r/ noun - ac·cus·ing·ly /-'kyü-zi[ng]-lE/ adv The definition of "question" for eRazor: Main Entry: 1ques·tion Pronunciation: 'kwes-ch&n, 'kwesh- Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin quaestion-, quaestio, from quaerere to seek, ask 1 a (1) : an interrogative expression often used to test knowledge (2) : an interrogative sentence or clause Genuinely questioning someone and outright accusing them is not the same. They are two different things. Again, whose posts are you reading ? Your argument style is reminiscent of ELIZA. Except ELIZA does it better. Cute comment. Btw, your arguement style is reminiscent of a religious zealot. ;) ~~~
sh0 09-16-04, 01:59 PM	Please take this bickering off of the boards and in to the PM area if you wish to continue it.
Saurenda 09-16-04, 02:00 PM	Question: Saurenda, Are you also eRazor(This is not meant to be nasty; it is a genuine question.) ? If not, the above post was not directed towards you at all. As a matter of fact I have a respect for poster's that are not biased towards certain settings and if they do have a bias they admit it openly and do not try to force their biased reasoning on others. On the other hand however, I have little respect for those whom attempt to pass their biases off as factual reasoning. Especially when the initial poster(the first poster) wanted a non biased response to his question. Also, I never said that his entire post did not require my attention. I did say: "The rest of your post does not even require my attention." ;) ~~~ How dare you. You may have little respect for other people, and I can live with that, but I have only one sn. :weep:
LordofIllusions 09-16-04, 02:02 PM	How dare you. You may have little respect for other people, and I can live with that, but I have only one sn. :weep: The above was not an accusation; it was a genuine question. If I have offended you(By my question) I stand corrected. ~~~
eRaz0r 09-16-04, 02:14 PM	Hehe . Ok. That was fun. I guess we're getting on other peoples nerves now, though. It's a shame, I was just getting into it. Summary : Good score for LoI. He managed to misdirect me from my point at least three times, and pressed all the usual internet debating buttons (straw man, ad hominem, reductio ad absurdum, etc) as well as throwing in some great little selective out-of-context quotes. He gets an added bonus for turning the whole movie sideline into a main show and changing his position in the middle of that so that it looked like he meant set-design qualified as map-centric all along. I had to let that slip it was so adroit. As for me : I liked my sign off. I have to concede, however, since his religious zealot comeback (even if it was edited in as an afterthought) was pretty decent. ;) Good Job. :bow: Thanks for the tete-a-tete, LoI. :D
LordofIllusions 09-16-04, 02:26 PM	Umm right. Back to what I initially said to Distorted Penguin: "If your looking for something complete, and fun, now buy Forgotten Realms. Eberron is new but it is not complete, as of yet." However, if you want something new and with that magitech feel to it, Eberron is for you. When dealing with FR you have multiple supplements to help you design your campaign. Eberron has some supplements out right now, but nowhere near as many as Forgotten Realms. One of my players loves the Drow from FR. I guess they fit his playing style; that is what it is ultimately about, style. Eberron's style is different from FR's(Not better, just different) and vice versa. Both are great settings. ~~~
stembolt 09-16-04, 07:31 PM	This gets my "best train wreck of the month" award. I have said it before and I'll say it again, there is no point in arguing with FR fanboys. It's not like you are ever going to talk sense into them.
q'afuu 09-16-04, 07:40 PM	but Tolkien did have to map out the world before it could be made believable. This is the case with any setting.Terry Pratchett has gone on record saying that he hadn't mapped out the Discworld (beyond the "Great A'Tuin carrying 4 elephants carrying a disc-shaped world" image) when he wrote his first novels in that setting. Iirc, TP even mentioned this made things harder for him - he'd rather be able to place stuff willy-nilly than have to adhere to a map.
stembolt 09-16-04, 08:15 PM	Terry Pratchett has gone on record saying that he hadn't mapped out the Discworld (beyond the "Great A'Tuin carrying 4 elephants carrying a disc-shaped world" image) when he wrote his first novels in that setting. Iirc, TP even mentioned this made things harder for him - he'd rather be able to place stuff willy-nilly than have to adhere to a map. a) Terry Prachett writes novels, not RPG campaign worlds b) He also writes in a humor vein as opposed to serious fantasy Mapping and planning are key to the creation of a campaign world.
DARKSUNRISE 09-16-04, 09:16 PM	Does every DM have to map out their campaigns? Ofcourse not...but mapping out a campaign does enhance the realism of that campaign. Traveling from one place to another in the blinking of an eye (like in a movie) isn't very realistic.In order to present a realistic campaign to your players (one that isn't patched together like an old pair of dusty jeans) mapping out the campaign is a must...Creating the world in your campaign as you go along may save alot of time (for lazy DMs) but sooner or later something isn't going to make sense...Perhaps this is why your players seem to jump down your throats,perhaps your poorly stitched together campaigns (if this is in-fact the case) don't make sense due to its lack of detail and realism... Who wants to live in a world with no direction,where up and down/right and left bare no meaning,where every location is but a blinking of the eye away? certainly not I...
lugnut71 09-16-04, 09:45 PM	a) Terry Prachett writes novels, not RPG campaign worlds b) He also writes in a humor vein as opposed to serious fantasy Mapping and planning are key to the creation of a campaign world. I find this odd sense I never mapped out my worlds. If I needed a city there it was. If I needed anything I placed it then. Mapping isn't needed at all really.
straylance 09-16-04, 09:57 PM	Traveling from one place to another in the blinking of an eye (like in a movie) isn't very realistic.In order to present a realistic campaign to your players (one that isn't patched together like an old pair of dusty jeans) mapping out the campaign is a must...Creating the world in your campaign as you go along may save alot of time (for lazy DMs) but sooner or later something isn't going to make sense...Perhaps this is why your players seem to jump down your throats,perhaps your poorly stitched together campaigns (if this is in-fact the case) don't make sense due its lack of detail and realism... Of course, that depends. There are many times in a campaign where travelling simply isn't important (if you haven't played in such a game, well, to each his own). Thus, simply noting that the players travelled for a few days or several weeks is appropriate, since its taking no time away from the focus of the story (and in this, the fast travel of Eberron is nice, but then, so is the Wayfarer's Guild in FR). In any case, while I am myself a mapaholic, I must stongly disagree that not mapping is the sign of a lazy DM, or that it will annoy the players. On the flip side, DMs should not be lazy...
DARKSUNRISE 09-16-04, 10:25 PM	Traveling from one place to another in the blinking of an eye (like in a movie) isn't very realistic.In order to present a realistic campaign to your players (one that isn't patched together like an old pair of dusty jeans) mapping out the campaign is a must...Creating the world in your campaign as you go along may save alot of time (for lazy DMs) but sooner or later something isn't going to make sense...Perhaps this is why your players seem to jump down your throats,perhaps your poorly stitched together campaigns (if this is in-fact the case) don't make sense due its lack of detail and realism... Of course, that depends. There are many times in a campaign where travelling simply isn't important (if you haven't played in such a game, well, to each his own). Thus, simply noting that the players travelled for a few days or several weeks is appropriate, since its taking no time away from the focus of the story (and in this, the fast travel of Eberron is nice, but then, so is the Wayfarer's Guild in FR). In any case, while I am myself a mapaholic, I must stongly disagree that not mapping is the sign of a lazy DM, or that it will annoy the players. On the flip side, DMs should not be lazy... When one creates a detailed world the physics,politics,and character interaction of that world always makes sense...You don't have to worry about today's episode of your campaign disagreeing with yesterday's episode of the same campaign because you already know where everything is,you already know who's doing what behind the scenes.The politics of the various groups of NPC's with-in this campaign and how it intertwines with the plot is also intact..This creates a sense of realism that is non-existent in a campaign that hasn't been mapped-out and detailed before hand... It's not about the period of time it takes to get around with-in the campaign,it's more about:Today there's a tavern located in this spot,and two days later there's a cottage located in the very same spot... Do you expect intelligent players to put up with this? When one maps out their campaigns the campaign itself never disagrees with itself.
Desies 09-16-04, 10:27 PM	Lemme start by saying that I only read the first couple of posts. I was relatively loyal to the Forgotten Realms, and they are a well thought out, well organized setting. There are a plethora of sourcebooks and tons of information is out there to be found. The number of novels is also a useful tool. However... Eberron is a hugely unique setting, with tons of brand new information. It is unlike any of the other settings. Sourcebooks, campaigns and other information will be coming out quickly. Eberron is also very well thought out and organized. Eberron is still very new, where Forgotten Realms has been around for decades, give Eberron some time before deciding that the Realms is better. Furthermore, I play in an Eberron campaign, a Greyhawk/Iron Kingdom campaign, and a Forgotten Realms campaign. I feel that they each have their strengths and the weaknesses are few and far between, it really just depends on what you are looking for.
straylance 09-16-04, 11:22 PM	It's not about the period of time it takes to get around with-in the campaign,it's more about:Today there's a tavern located in this spot,and two days later there's a cottage located in the very same spot... Do you expect intelligent players to put up with this? When one maps out their campaigns the campaign itself never disagrees with itself. The only thing I can say is that you must have very different players from the ones I'm used to dealing with (and not just my own campaigns). Around here, I consider myself lucky if the players remember there was a tavern in the first place... :) In any case, I don't disagree with your claim that Maps Are Good as much as I disagree with your implication that DMs Without Maps Are Worthless. But perhaps this conversation is better had on another thread.
stembolt 09-16-04, 11:53 PM	I find this odd sense I never mapped out my worlds. If I needed a city there it was. If I needed anything I placed it then. Mapping isn't needed at all really. Really? How many game worlds have you published exactly? Also I think people are missing the point of point-to-point travel in Eberron. In a movie when the charcters find out they need to go to cairo, what is the next scene? It’s them getting out of a plane or cab in Cairo. In the modern world we know they bought plane tickets, sat in the airport, took an overseas flight, landed and then got out in Cairo. Is there any reason to show this trip, no. How is that different from DnD? OK, lets say you are in Waterdeep and you need to go to Silverymoon. You get a horse and start riding. You fight random encounters every 12 hours (or whatever) then several weeks later there you are in Silverymoon. And it only took three pointless sessions of travel. Now I realize you can just skip the travel, but that’s not realistic. In Eberron on the other hand it is well established that people can travel all over the place easily.
lugnut71 09-17-04, 11:08 AM	Really? How many game worlds have you published exactly? Also I think people are missing the point of point-to-point travel in Eberron. In a movie when the charcters find out they need to go to cairo, what is the next scene? It’s them getting out of a plane or cab in Cairo. In the modern world we know they bought plane tickets, sat in the airport, took an overseas flight, landed and then got out in Cairo. Is there any reason to show this trip, no. How is that different from DnD? OK, lets say you are in Waterdeep and you need to go to Silverymoon. You get a horse and start riding. You fight random encounters every 12 hours (or whatever) then several weeks later there you are in Silverymoon. And it only took three pointless sessions of travel. Now I realize you can just skip the travel, but that’s not realistic. In Eberron on the other hand it is well established that people can travel all over the place easily. None really but then I would be on the same level as 99.9999999% of all the DMs in the world. Really so random encounters every 12 hours huh does not sound real random to me. If I need a random encounter I will roll one up. Besides what do they need to know how long it took unless they are in a hurry. Then I can come up with a time. It took you 8 days to get there problem solved. If they ask me how long it took to get back same amount of time 8 days. How is skipping travel unrealistic? Do you skip characters going to the bathroom, waiting in line at the blacksmith, having to shoe horses? These actions like basic traveling do far more to hurt a game then help it. At the same time they do keep reality. Along this line why the heck is it important. If my players want to go to a tavern I tell them they come on a tavern. Unless they are wandering in the wilderness. I don't need to tell them what street it is on. I'm curious why you have to.
eRaz0r 09-17-04, 01:47 PM	When one creates a detailed world the physics,politics,and character interaction of that world always makes sense... And for this you need a map ? How much of a map is required ? At what point does your map hinder your ability to adjust the story you and your players are developing on the fly? You don't have to worry about today's episode of your campaign disagreeing with yesterday's episode of the same campaign because you already know where everything is, Do you? How many game worlds have you developed for yourself ? Or do you always run a published game world ? In either case, You know where everything is ? In every street of every town, in every nation, every culture, every ruin, every dungeon? Even the ones your players haven't ever visited, or may never visit? Have you committed to memory every major and minor NPC the players have met or are likely to meet ? Unless you have an eidetic memory, I suggest that you may not know where everything is, or even was, when you last left it there. I've found making copious notes about NPC motivations is better for my story than marking on a map where the tavern was. My players assume they can find the tavern again. They don't need to know that it was at 1425 Lower South Street. I guess I'm just saying that a lack of a map - a physical representation of layout - doesn't imply a lack of consistency. you already know who's doing what behind the scenes.The politics of the various groups of NPC's with-in this campaign and how it intertwines with the plot is also intact..This creates a sense of realism that is non-existent in a campaign that hasn't been mapped-out and detailed before hand... You're confusing the word "map" with plan. I can plan an entire campaign down to the motivations of Henchman #3 on the Left without having a cartographic representation anywhere. It's not about the period of time it takes to get around with-in the campaign,it's more about:Today there's a tavern located in this spot,and two days later there's a cottage located in the very same spot... Again - map vs Plan. If the players are *already using* a map of an area and I say "Oh, that's where the tavern is" and later say "that's a cottage", then I'm not doing my job well enough. If there is no map, and I say "you find a nice tavern called the Leaping Buck." and later they PCs say "we go back to the Leaping Buck" neither they, nor I, need to know that the Leaping Buck is on the left or the right as you enter the town. Do you expect intelligent players to put up with this? Do you expect intelligent DMs to go to a lot of work for nothing ? If your players don't give a flying fig what the names of your taverns or innkeepers are, then do you expect them to care what their address is? Why make more work for myself than I need to ? And in a published setting, a map with that kind of detail on it could be a liability. You might want to put the Leaping Buck tavern in Sharn somewhere, but now there's this map out and every last building has a name and a function. So you have to change something - either your own campaign, or the map. Oh no! More Work! When one maps out their campaigns the campaign itself never disagrees with itself. Well that's not true, either. The most accomplished DMs make mistakes. They might make a plan and then change it when the PCs do something unexpected. Then he forgets to update his map. Oh no - an inconsistency! If you meant "plan out": plans change. Too much planning or "mapping" can feel like a straightjacket. This can happen to homebrew settings as much as published settings (more so, depending on the DM). You could find yourself not wanting to change your plan to accomodate the actions of the PCs because you like it too much. And if you're referring to actual maps : businesses dry up, people move house, war can ravage a city. If you have a highly detailed map, you might feel it difficult to make such changes on a whim to suit your story. The map rules you instead of the other way around. I agree that planning is good. In a DM, I prize flexibility above planning, however. One can maintain consistency either way - for me, it takes as much work either way, realistically.
Roxlimn 09-17-04, 01:58 PM	I like Eberron because it's imaginative and innovative. Much like the Final Fantasy series, it deals with magic and its repercussions on society on a level that's a little more thought out than what FR offers. What kind of effect does having Adepts and Clerics all around the place really have on the local health scene? What about things like Prestidigitation and Continual Flame? FR (like many D&D settings) has something of a fairy tale atmosphere to it. Very child-like in a sense, it does not make much in the way of any effort to think these things through. Things like military fortifications, political and economic impact and social structural impact makes sense in very simple terms even to an 8 year old, which explains why some settings that explore these ideas, like FF settings, has definite appeal. I like it that Eberron does this, and I want this to continue. This "fantasy- noir" thing doesn't seem very survivable, though. It's just not a wide-appeal thing. I hope the top dudes see this very quickly and move to make Eberron have a wider base.
DARKSUNRISE 09-17-04, 08:57 PM	And for this you need a map ? How much of a map is required ? At what point does your map hinder your ability to adjust the story you and your players are developing on the fly? Do you? How many game worlds have you developed for yourself ? Or do you always run a published game world ? In either case, You know where everything is ? In every street of every town, in every nation, every culture, every ruin, every dungeon? Even the ones your players haven't ever visited, or may never visit? Have you committed to memory every major and minor NPC the players have met or are likely to meet ? Unless you have an eidetic memory, I suggest that you may not know where everything is, or even was, when you last left it there. I've found making copious notes about NPC motivations is better for my story than marking on a map where the tavern was. My players assume they can find the tavern again. They don't need to know that it was at 1425 Lower South Street. I guess I'm just saying that a lack of a map - a physical representation of layout - doesn't imply a lack of consistency. You're confusing the word "map" with plan. I can plan an entire campaign down to the motivations of Henchman #3 on the Left without having a cartographic representation anywhere. Again - map vs Plan. If the players are *already using* a map of an area and I say "Oh, that's where the tavern is" and later say "that's a cottage", then I'm not doing my job well enough. If there is no map, and I say "you find a nice tavern called the Leaping Buck." and later they PCs say "we go back to the Leaping Buck" neither they, nor I, need to know that the Leaping Buck is on the left or the right as you enter the town. Do you expect intelligent DMs to go to a lot of work for nothing ? If your players don't give a flying fig what the names of your taverns or innkeepers are, then do you expect them to care what their address is? Why make more work for myself than I need to ? And in a published setting, a map with that kind of detail on it could be a liability. You might want to put the Leaping Buck tavern in Sharn somewhere, but now there's this map out and every last building has a name and a function. So you have to change something - either your own campaign, or the map. Oh no! More Work! Well that's not true, either. The most accomplished DMs make mistakes. They might make a plan and then change it when the PCs do something unexpected. Then he forgets to update his map. Oh no - an inconsistency! If you meant "plan out": plans change. Too much planning or "mapping" can feel like a straightjacket. This can happen to homebrew settings as much as published settings (more so, depending on the DM). You could find yourself not wanting to change your plan to accomodate the actions of the PCs because you like it too much. And if you're referring to actual maps : businesses dry up, people move house, war can ravage a city. If you have a highly detailed map, you might feel it difficult to make such changes on a whim to suit your story. The map rules you instead of the other way around. I agree that planning is good. In a DM, I prize flexibility above planning, however. One can maintain consistency either way - for me, it takes as much work either way, realistically. The English word map also means TO PLAN IN DETAIL,it doesn't just refer to a physical thing meant to log geographic location. And before you say that you were only referring to physical maps please review the statement below:"FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket. When your players can quote the history of obscure NPCs who you haven't even decided are even in your version of the world, you know you've got your job cut out." Are these not your words? Are you not rebuking FR because of its level of DETAIL? Does this not conclude that you are no big fan of detailed campaign settings? And what do you mean by "you know you've got your job cut out."? Are your players complaining that your lack-luster campaigns disagree with the already detailed world of this campaign setting? I never said that it was mandatory for a DM to map-out all of their campaigns,I stated that mapping out one's campaigns adds a sense of realism to the game...Do your players demand hightly detailed and extremely realistic campaigns? That depends on the type of players you have.Some players are satisfied with simple campaigns while others require more of a detailed foundation. Also:A highly detailed campaign doesn't equate to a non-flexible campaign setting it only adds to the reaslism of the campaign itself.
DARKSUNRISE 09-17-04, 09:11 PM	The only thing I can say is that you must have very different players from the ones I'm used to dealing with (and not just my own campaigns). Around here, I consider myself lucky if the players remember there was a tavern in the first place... :) In any case, I don't disagree with your claim that Maps Are Good as much as I disagree with your implication that DMs Without Maps Are Worthless. But perhaps this conversation is better had on another thread. What an unfair perception of my post. I never said (nor implicated) that DMs without maps are worthless,I simply stated that mapping out a campaign added a sense of realism to the campaign itself.
q'afuu 09-17-04, 10:24 PM	a) Terry Prachett writes novels, not RPG campaign worlds b) He also writes in a humor vein as opposed to serious fantasy Mapping and planning are key to the creation of a campaign world. Of course, the point I replied to was that pretty much every story world, be it for a novel, a movie or settings, starts with and requires a map. I merely provided an example to the contrary. Whether that example constists of a novel or a setting and whether it's humorous as opposed to serious is immaterial. It's a valid counterexample for the original thesis.
stembolt 09-17-04, 11:18 PM	None really but then I would be on the same level as 99.9999999% of all the DMs in the world. I find this statement to be the most humorous. 10 trillion is a lot of DMs. How many players do you think that makes? Really so random encounters every 12 hours huh does not sound real random to me. This takes second. “Random encounters do not sound so random.” Wait he gets better… If I need a random encounter I will roll one up. That’s what I have been doing wrong all this time. Anyway, moving on. How is skipping travel unrealistic? Do you skip characters going to the bathroom, waiting in line at the blacksmith, having to shoe horses? These actions like basic traveling do far more to hurt a game then help it. At the same time they do keep reality. The best part of this question is how he basically answers himself… If my players want to go to a tavern I tell them they come on a tavern. Unless they are wandering in the wilderness. So if they are out in the woods and want to go to a tavern the answer is no. But if they want to go to a city *poof* they are there? You basically answer this question yourself. Traveling to another city is so difficult that some care must be taken to arrange a trip. Even if the characters go and quickly negotiate to accompany a few merchants they had to get derailed to do that. In Eberron when you need to go to Wroat you say “we get the train” then the DM says “subtract 127GP from your inventory, and you are in Wroat.” No time wasted. And for this you need a map ? How much of a map is required ? At what point does your map hinder your ability to adjust the story you and your players are developing on the fly? Yes you do. At least as much of the world as you are going to use. Never, it in fact allows you to work with the world better. Of course, the point I replied to was that pretty much every story world, be it for a novel, a movie or settings, starts with and requires a map. I merely provided an example to the contrary. Whether that example constists of a novel or a setting and whether it's humorous as opposed to serious is immaterial. It's a valid counterexample for the original thesis. I also don’t make a map when I bake a pie. Is that applicable? Logically speaking they are as applicable. That is, not at all. “All cats have fur, if I find an animal without fur does that mean that cats don’t have fur?” That’s basically the same syllogism to what you said. Just because a novelist did not plan out a world it does not mean anything to an RPG world/campaign designer.
lugnut71 09-17-04, 11:49 PM	It is intresting how you take what I say and bend it to fit your needs. Having a discussion with you is intresting to say the least. Yet I see no reason to continue since you have ignored my points I don't believe you missed them you just chose to ignore them. Perhaps Darksunrise will have something to say about them and I will be able to discuss with him but it appears futile to have a debate with you.
Methos of Aundair 09-18-04, 01:36 AM	One obvious point I realize most of you probably understand is that in a few more years Eberron will probably be just as detailed as FR. Why? Money. WizCo (or whoever owns the rights to DnD at that point) is in the business of money and if Eberron becomes the hit it seems to be they will print every accessory or supplement possible in order to pry every dollar they can from us. In a few more years there will be books pertaining exclusively to each nation, dragon house, or organization in the game. Why, because they know we will buy them. It doesn't matter if some of us don't, enough people will to allow them to keep printing. So though this debate is happening now, Eberron will follow in the footsteps of FR until the next major setting comes up. Just a thought. :)
stembolt 09-18-04, 02:56 AM	It is intresting how you take what I say and bend it to fit your needs. Having a discussion with you is intresting to say the least. Yet I see no reason to continue since you have ignored my points I don't believe you missed them you just chose to ignore them. Perhaps Darksunrise will have something to say about them and I will be able to discuss with him but it appears futile to have a debate with you. Oh you think this is a debate? No, it’s not a debate. Your simply wrong and I am trying to show you what the truth is. FACT: Eberron is specifically designed to help eliminate boring travel details. If you have any further questions don’t hesitate to ask. So though this debate is happening now, Eberron will follow in the footsteps of FR until the next major setting comes up. At no point was FR ever as good as Eberron. Eberron is a well crafted, interesting, unique world. FR was never any of those things. Eberron follows FR only in volume and chronology. The quality and content of Eberron has already surpassed FR.
eRaz0r 09-18-04, 04:51 AM	The English word map also means TO PLAN IN DETAIL,it doesn't just refer to a physical thing meant to log geographic location. Really ? What dictionary did you get that from? Perhaps that was what you meant. Forgive me for misunderstanding. Perhaps you also didn't mean to imply that running a game without a geographical representation of the game world in excruciating detail implied a lackluster experience for all involved, and any DM who considered so doing was lazy and incompetent. Of course, you could always ask any of my players whether they thought that of my games. You'd get an answer that might surprise you, I'd warrant. And before you say that you were only referring to physical maps please review the statement below:"FR's boon is it's bane as well. Everything has happened there, and there are maps to show you where and a history that tells you when. It's all in such excrutiatingly public detail that it feels like a straightjacket. When your players can quote the history of obscure NPCs who you haven't even decided are even in your version of the world, you know you've got your job cut out." Are these not your words? Indeed they are. Note that I refer to history as separate from the maps. They are two different entities, and both of them can be constraints on running a game... I still prefer my own game-world. I've been running it for over fifteen years, and in two different game systems. It's not as detailed as FR, or even Eberron. But there's a lot of history that's gone down in it. Fifteen years of PCs lasting effects on a game world. There are the retired evil PCs who've gone on to become recurring NPC villains for other PCs to tackle. Others who have attained ranks in armies or the nobility, who've literally saved the world, or so they've thought. Did I need a map of every tavern they've ever been in ? Every road of every city ? No. Did I need to know roughly how long that overland journey was ? If it was important, yes. Good thing I have a map, right? Did I make up a bunch of stuff that was interesting on the way ? Damn straight. Did I go back and put it on the map - if it was good enough, and permanent enough, yes. Are you not rebuking FR because of its level of DETAIL? Does this not conclude that you are no big fan of detailed campaign settings? Only where the Detail goes beyond useful and into the area of fluff. And what do you mean by "you know you've got your job cut out."? That anyone wanting to run their own campaign in a setting that has so much detail that any details of their own have to be carefully edited and inserted in the cracks has a big job ahead of them. That anyone who runs in such a setting has a big job managing players expectations, especially those who are coming late into his game and yet are familiar with the setting. It's hard to use artistic license on Elminster, for example. His character is well established, and any changes you've made to him may have to be explained to the players. Are your players complaining that your lack-luster campaigns disagree with the already detailed world of this campaign setting? Now this is where you're getting all insulting. Do your players complain that you're incapable of a coherent and orignal creative thought? Aren't they bored running characters who are nothing more than backdrop for the already rich and detailed world of the campaign setting ? Get off your hobby horse and have a real conversation. Stop being so damned defensive. My main point, is that too much detail can cramp ones style. Eberron will eventually suffer from it, but, I expect, by that time I will have moved on. I never said that it was mandatory for a DM to map-out all of their campaigns,I stated that mapping out one's campaigns adds a sense of realism to the game...Do your players demand hightly detailed and extremely realistic campaigns? Do your players equate realism with geographic maps ? Or perhaps they actually keep track of material components. Maybe, for added realism, they bring a pouch full of them to the session, so everyone can experience the piquant odour of bat guano when they start throwing fireballs around. Mm-mm. My players demand an entertaining evening's diversion, and the opportunity to play a hero. Realism is optional. Fireballs aren't very realistic, why should anything else be? That said, a certain amount of detail is mandatory for getting a feel for a place that isn't Earth. I can certainly agree with that. I quite like the maps in Eberron. They're an overview. They don't tell me that hamlet#6 on the road to Sharn is owned by Hansom Oerback and his family of three. I'm free to fill in that detail if it's ever required. That depends on the type of players you have.Some players are satisfied with simple campaigns while others require more of a detailed foundation. Also:A highly detailed campaign doesn't equate to a non-flexible campaign setting it only adds to the reaslism of the campaign itself. I get a sense of immersion (different from realism) by engaging my players in an emotionally moving story. If that story is significantly different from the details provided in the published setting, then I have to weave my threads into the setting. That means I need to really know the setting better than the players do, or I can get caught out with inconsistencies. With a published setting with such a breadth of detail (especially taking into account, say the FR novels), there is no guarantee that I can know the setting better than my players. I find that this actually impedes my ability to run a living, vibrant, entertaining, and yes, even occaisionally realistic campaign world, rather than helps it.
Methos of Aundair 09-18-04, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by stembolt Oh you think this is a debate? No, it’s not a debate. Your simply wrong and I am trying to show you what the truth is. Actually you are wrong stembolt, you are not showing the truth, you are showing your opinion, and attempting to force it on someone else. Please keep this as a discussion. FACT: Eberron is specifically designed to help eliminate boring travel details. Wrong again, that is not fact. It is mentioned but Eberron wasn’t specifically designed for this. I’m not attacking you stembolt just trying to get the point across that this is a discussion of everyone’s opinions and opinions are not facts or hard truths. Each of us feels a certain way and, though we can attempt it, we can not force someone to change their opinion. To be honest I agree with you in not needing to plan out every trip and often don’t. I didn’t do it in FR much either, wasn’t much of a reason too. When FR first came out I loved it and thought it was the best thing in the world! Every game was in FR and I had a blast. At first all the supplements were great but eventually they became too much. Many FR games began to take place only in areas of FR that were not in print. Then they started moving the FR world forward in time and that became too much. I lost interest in FR, or at least the current time period. Other than a current campaign I haven’t done anything with FR in a couple years, just homebrew. Now Eberron has come out and it is a great world. I really like the idea behind it and am looking forward to some great gaming. The one thing I know will happen is supplements will be printed and eventually everything that was done to FR will be done to Eberron. This does not mean the Eberron setting will take on that of FR, but they will detail every little nook and cranny and eventually we will get books on time progression in Eberron. It’s bound to happen, why? There’s money in it. I am still currently running a campaign in FR as well as Eberron and enjoying them both. My FR campaign is set in the desert of desolation and deals with the ancient Imarski empire. Why? Simple, this hasn’t been detailed extensively.
Methos of Aundair 09-18-04, 09:29 AM	Originally posted by eRazOr My main point, is that too much detail can cramp ones style. In this I agree with you. Several years ago we ran (as in 4 DM’s working together) a massive FR campaign of approximately 30 players in something similar to a Living Greyhawk game. To make the game more focused on the players we removed many of the good organization as well as informed everyone that beings such as Elminster would not be involved in this campaign. Even then, anytime we as the DM’s tailored something for the specific campaign every player had to inform us how that wasn’t how FR was. You wouldn’t believe how many times we had to inform the players that as DM we can and will alter the campaign setting to fit the needs of the campaign or for the players’ enjoyment. Obviously many of them didn’t understand that statement. Another point I would like to bring up on the map subject is it depends on the players. I’ve ran games where the players don’t seem to care to interact with the world around them. They don’t care about the city they are in and don’t care about where the tavern is located or even what it is called. In a game like this I typically find no use for a map. I’ve also run a game (my current FR game) where they players enjoy interacting with the world around them and seek out where everything is located in a town. Why, for future plans they have of course or current plans. Maps are used a lot more in this style not as much due to the players wanting them, but in order to help out my memory. Too many games, too many on-the-fly creations. Being flexible is part of being a DM and often brings great pleasure of the game to me since I have to create things on the spot. I enjoy using maps but tend not to detail them out very much just in case the players do something unusual (which typically is usual) or a new plot twist comes into play. So in my opinion using maps in a campaign is based off of how the players react to the world, not the campaign setting the game is in. Obviously from my previous posts I am not a great fan of major detail. This is one of the reasons I really like Eberron right now. As eRazOr has mentioned when Eberron becomes fully detailed like FR I will either have gone back to homebrew gaming style or will play in areas of Eberron that haven’t been detailed out. Or just inform the players any published books detailing specific areas, houses, organizations do not determine how in my campaign they are defined.
eRaz0r 09-18-04, 12:38 PM	Even then, anytime we as the DM’s tailored something for the specific campaign every player had to inform us how that wasn’t how FR was. Finally! I was beginning to think no one else has had this problem. Sure, if you started when the FR was released, and played with the same gaming group since then, then you might be able to expect your players to accept your divergent evolution of the setting.. Another point I would like to bring up on the map subject is it depends on the players. I’ve ran games where the players don’t seem to care to interact with the world around them. They don’t care about the city they are in and don’t care about where the tavern is located or even what it is called. In a game like this I typically find no use for a map. This is certainly one type of group for whom the map is irrelevant. I’ve also run a game (my current FR game) where they players enjoy interacting with the world around them and seek out where everything is located in a town. Why, for future plans they have of course or current plans. Maps are used a lot more in this style not as much due to the players wanting them, but in order to help out my memory. Did you find that, unless the PCs future plans involve town planning, or plotting a heist which requires a get-away route, or something like that, it was sufficient to note that these places are all within the same city? Or did you actually have need of an actual layout ?
Methos of Aundair 09-18-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by eRazOr Did you find that, unless the PCs future plans involve town planning, or plotting a heist which requires a get-away route, or something like that, it was sufficient to note that these places are all within the same city? Or did you actually have need of an actual layout ? The campaign started out in occupied Unthalass in more of the decrepit part of the city so there was need for a full layout of everything within several blocks due to rival groups, Mulhorand guard patrols, and possible ally locations (as in the local cobbler, baker, grocer, or whatever). So yes, at that point a very specific layout was required. Eventually the players left Unthalass and traveled other areas (Threskel, Mulhorand), reaching the Desert of Desolation. Certain villages, towns, camps and the players city calls for specific notes (as in a certain sheik, caravan base, etc.) but actual town layouts isn’t required or even used. In a file on my computer is the list of what town/village has what specific interest, it is not detailed on a map. If the players ask for one I will draw it out. So at this point in the campaign my answer to your question is no, an actual layout is not needed. Even the city they are building does not require a map. We just note the specific things they are striving for, or creating/investing in. For those interested I have converted the old Desert of Desolations module to use with the ancient Imarski empire. I have majorly converted it to be specific to my campaign. My current players in the FR game are very imaginative and don’t require maps unless for specific instances, I thoroughly enjoy this aspect. Also note they are very into establishing their characters in the area. I don't mean becoming the local heroes through monster slaying, but becoming friends with the right people, learning everything they can of an area and then finding a way to become part of it. This doesn't necessarily require maps, just lots and lots of notes. :)
stembolt 09-18-04, 01:09 PM	Actually you are wrong stembolt, you are not showing the truth, you are showing your opinion, and attempting to force it on someone else. Please keep this as a discussion. Wrong again, that is not fact. It is mentioned but Eberron wasn’t specifically designed for this. I may have crossed wires slightly there. FR sucks. Eberron rules = opinion Eberron cuts down on boring travel details = fact Half of my post is fact, the other is opinion. I should have been clearer. The world of Eberron was in fact designed with the “Indiana Jones dotted line” in mind. As demanded by its pulp component. This is very prevalent in Keiths writing on the setting. Moving on to opinion The one thing I know will happen is supplements will be printed and eventually everything that was done to FR will be done to Eberron. No, No, No. If you take a crappy world and make crappy supplements then you have FR. Ebberon is a good world in the first place. If they make the same quality of supplements as the ECSB then it will not be like FR at all. Years ago I thought FR was pretty good as well. Of course I was 13, the only other world I knew was dragonlance (and dragonlance makes FR look good) and I didn’t know better because there were no quality settings anyway. I am still currently running a campaign in FR as well as Eberron and enjoying them both. My FR campaign is set in the desert of desolation and deals with the ancient Imarski empire. Why? Simple, this hasn’t been detailed extensively. Detailing things is not a problem if they are done well. That’s why every time they detail something in FR everyone gives it up, because they did a crappy job. Now after the Sharn supplement comes out do you think more people or less people will be playing in Sharn?
Methos of Aundair 09-18-04, 01:29 PM	Originally posted by stembolt Detailing things is not a problem if they are done well. That’s why every time they detail something in FR everyone gives it up, because they did a crappy job. I actually liked a lot of what they did with FR at first, just not when they started advancing the timeframe (mainly when they started revamping entire countries, creating new ones, etc.) since sometimes this went against the campaign I was either running or playing in. I also enjoyed the supplements (even the latest ones) unless they adjusted an area I had already created in my campaign and the players argued about it. One of the main problems I had with the FR and the supplements was the focus on good groups or individuals. In the FR campaign I mentioned above that had approx. 30 players you wouldn’t believe how many of them tried to state they had either Elminster, one of the Seven Sisters, Kelben, or some other “celebrity” in their backstory. I believe it was nearly half of the players. Does that make me not like FR? No, I like the world and thoroughly enjoy playing in it, with slight modifications of course. I just didn’t like the focus they chose in the supplemental books and the world itself. I merely adjusted it, just the same as I will do with the parts of Eberron I either disagree with or don’t follow with the story I am providing to my players. So far Eberron doesn’t have any supplements out (only a couple adventures) so everything in the world that was detailed in the ECBS was merely glossed over providing the DM with the ability to adjust it with very little work. This I am really enjoying! Now after the Sharn supplement comes out do you think more people or less people will be playing in Sharn? To be honest it depends on what they do with the book. If they detail every level in great detail or discuss every nook-n-cranny than I will be very upset with the book. If they merely give a brief overview of the cities layout, how it is run and possibly a little information on selective groups I will be impressed. I don’t mind a slight overview, just enough to make your mouth water, but not so much there is no creative work for me as the DM. I like to create and too much information tends to cause problems. Typically the players who are too young or not very creative who explicitly have to go by the books as written. I enjoy DM’ing or playing with groups who have no problem with adjusting the world to fit with the campaign. If as a player I notice the DM state something that goes against the books as written I don’t argue, I in fact become more attentive. Why? I realize that a creative process has been done to further the storyline. This is what I enjoy and I realize not every player or DM thinks the way I do.
lugnut71 09-18-04, 08:11 PM	I may have crossed wires slightly there. FR sucks. Eberron rules = opinion Eberron cuts down on boring travel details = fact Half of my post is fact, the other is opinion. I should have been clearer. The world of Eberron was in fact designed with the “Indiana Jones dotted line” in mind. As demanded by its pulp component. This is very prevalent in Keiths writing on the setting. Moving on to opinion No, No, No. If you take a crappy world and make crappy supplements then you have FR. Ebberon is a good world in the first place. If they make the same quality of supplements as the ECSB then it will not be like FR at all. Years ago I thought FR was pretty good as well. Of course I was 13, the only other world I knew was dragonlance (and dragonlance makes FR look good) and I didn’t know better because there were no quality settings anyway. Detailing things is not a problem if they are done well. That’s why every time they detail something in FR everyone gives it up, because they did a crappy job. Now after the Sharn supplement comes out do you think more people or less people will be playing in Sharn? Wow your an angry individual. The way you deal with people online makes me wonder what kind of person you are. Perhaps you act this way because you are typically meek in real life. Thus you compensate online since no one can see you. On the other hand perhaps you are like this in life but that would seem unlikely since you would have trouble maintaining a relationship with anyone. But that is okay because I forgive you for your misguided ways. Now to go with what eRazor said every DM should go with what they feel is best. I don't need maps or a campaign planned out beyond your in a village. Some people do. Both types of campaigns can go bad. One the DM can end up railroading characters the other can wander aimlessly. Of course some PC's like being told what to do others like to wander aimlessly. It can all depend on the group too. In my games it doesn't pay for me to make a plan because chances are the PC's won't do it. They like to wander around and often I only have to fill their adventures with NPC's well they decide what they want to do.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 09-18-04, 08:43 PM	Wow your an angry individual. The way you deal with people online makes me wonder what kind of person you are. Perhaps you act this way because you are typically meek in real life. Thus you compensate online since no one can see you. On the other hand perhaps you are like this in life but that would seem unlikely since you would have trouble maintaining a relationship with anyone. But that is okay because I forgive you for your misguided ways. Okay, I'm gonna try and jump on this before a flame war starts. Dude, Lugnut, shut up. You're just trolling; pointless insults don't do anyone any good, and your self-righteous attitude isn't helping either. This thread just got back on track, and I for one don't want to see it be locked. Stembolt clearly doesn't like Forgotten Realms, and I largely agree with him, if not quite to the same degree. You did offer a counter argument, which is good, but opening with a viscious insult is not necessary. To everyone, I offer this plea: please don't feed the troll
ChrisTheS 09-18-04, 09:45 PM	Hear, hear. This thread had a legitimate point at the start, let's keep it to that point *starves the troll* Someone brought up the point that the players' overfamiliarity with the setting is a problem with the players, not the setting. This is true: however, some blame must be placed on the setting for making it so accessible to players. I certainly hope, for instance, that the full stats for characters from the Eberron novels are never published in any game accessory (beyond the minimal identification of race and class that is given for normal major NPCs), and that the nations are never developed in such detail that there's hardly any room for the GM to improvise. Of course, some people may like to have everything spelled out for them, and far be it from me to say that they're wrong. To each their own, as ever. I personally think that the Realms is too big and lacks the cohesion between locations necessary to make epic-scale adventuring satisfying. I also think that Eberron lacks the ability for near-infinite expansion and the extensive Planescape compatability that the Realms possesses. I think that they both lack the strong good/evil polarization of Dragonlance, the brooding dark futility of Midnight, the cosmopolitanism of Dragon*Star, the angsty pubescent soul-searching of Engel, and the claustrophobic feel of Ravenloft. What distinguishes Eberron from the rest is that it was inspired primarily by cinema, not literature. As a result, its flavor lends itself more the film and comic book style of adventure than the 'Fellowship' format of classic D&D settings; a sequence of discrete scenes or episodes instead of a long continuous saga. It doesn't HAVE to be like that, and the method can be used in other settings as well, but Eberron was designed with that style in mind, and has various plot devices such as the Lightning Rail built-in to make that style of game easier. But as a mere piece of geography, Eberron is hardly any different from anything else out there. Agonizing over a decision between it and another setting is, in my view, effort better given to actually planning the game. Just pick one, whatever it is; put your best effort into running it, and the players will enjoy it. Which is really all that matters.
stembolt 09-19-04, 12:41 AM	Stembolt clearly doesn't like Forgotten Realms, and I largely agree with him, if not quite to the same degree. I have really disliked FR since long before Eberron setting came out (I had hopes for 3ed but no). My vehemence stems from how people keep speaking up about how they like FR. I don’t think that FR is really that bad, It’s bad enough that no one should ever bother playing it, but it’s not Satan or anything. It’s my old “white wolf” argument. It’s not worth playing white wolf when there are so many superior games out there. Someone brought up the point that the players' overfamiliarity with the setting is a problem with the players, not the setting. Well, let me relate something that happened in my game (I was a player). The group stops off at some town in the north on our way somewhere (this was like a year and a half ago). Anyway one of the players goes “oh we are stopping here? I’m going to go to the market then.” The DM goes “OK then what would you like at the market?” “What do I see when I get there?” “You see a market, you can get anything under Xgp.” “No there’s supposed to be a big display of dancing slaves* I was coming to look at them.” “What book is that in?” “It’s in this novel that I just read.” Now the guy thought the DM knew about this thing and he just wanted his character to see it. So who’s problem was that? *It wasn’t dancing slaves it was something like that.
Methos of Aundair 09-19-04, 02:12 AM	My vehemence stems from how people keep speaking up about how they like FR. I find this interesting that you would get that upset about someone stating they like FR. I could see it for political issues, religion, abortion, or specific topics like that, but FR seems odd. It’s your opinion and I have no problem with that, just find it odd. I have never liked the Dragonlance world but have no problem listening to people discuss it. Nor am I a fan of the LotR movies (I did like the books) but I have no problem listening to people talk about them. Why? Simple, just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean everyone else can’t talk about it around me. I like FR and have since its beginning, just not specific things about it (as I’ve already mentioned). At the moment I enjoy Eberron more but since there are already several people who are vehemently speaking in favor of Eberron over FR I might as well side on the FR side. Things I like about FR? One would have to be that you have all types of cultures and geographical areas. You could play in the frozen north, mountains, jungle, desert, etc. and there was enough information there for the DM to get a basis for some good creation. You have the oriental aspect, “Indian-type” culture (maztica) as well as the desert culture (Zakhara). There are novels covering nearly the whole continent allowing both the DM and the player to get a feel for the type of culture the game has chosen (as in specific area: Cormyr, Waterdeep, etc.). The campaign setting has a good basic history that is easy for the DM to set the campaign at nearly any point in the world, whether you wish to play during the Cormanthor era, Netheril, or when the Dales and Cormyr first became populated and established. Plus the game has been around for quite some time (what has it been 15 years of so? Can’t remember) so I am very familiar with the world and so are the players. I don’t necessarily have to spend several hours explaining the world since they typically know it. I just need to explain the differences and any specific info of the immediate area. I do ask the players not to use player knowledge unless it would be considered common knowledge. I’ve always liked FR and the geographical areas, especially the Silver Marches. That is one of the things I actually liked about the time jump. There are maps and they are very detailed. What about Eberron and what I don’t like about it. First off is drow, why would thy bring them back. I’m tired of them since everyone wants to play one, or at least a half-drow who follows their drow parents heritage. I don’t like that the world seems to be tailored more towards the swashbuckling-type era, that’s just not my thing. Dragons now are contemplative creatures who are philosophers and barely interact with the world. The map sucked! History pre-war and pre-Galifer was barely mentioned, barely even enough to spark some good ideas. I don’t like Xendrik or the Argonessen (sp). There are several other things I don’t like about Eberron but will I change them? No, I may not like them but I don’t hate them. Besides I haven’t had a chance yet to deal with them game-wise so I see no reason to change them until I can play-test them or spark some good ideas about them. Recall, I prefer Eberron over FR but like both worlds and would DM or play in both. Since people here seem to stray more towards Eberron so I figured I’d argue on the FR side. @stembolt: I’m curious as to your “white wolf” argument but figure many don’t wish to hear it here. If you like pm me. I’ve never played white wolf and am just starting to get into WoD. Also I’m curious how you could hate the entire FR world, isn’t there something about FR you actually like? Sorry if you already posted this on this thread but it was so long I only went back several posts before I originally posted. Sorry if the post seems like I’m rambling, I just got done DM’ing my campaign and its 1 in the morning.
straylance 09-19-04, 03:42 AM	I think there is about a page of posts in here that could be ripped out to no loss. But to correct the damage I'm responsible for: Darksunrise, I think your DM style is just drastically different from many people here; thus there is a difference in what "an intelligent player would put up with". Fair enough?
stembolt 09-19-04, 04:29 AM	I find this interesting that you would get that upset about someone stating they like FR. As a point of clarification I don’t get upset because someone likes FR. My problem is that typically 6 people pop up as pro FR and only a few against. I come down hard on FR because as I see it that brings it more into balance. I am thinking of the guy who has never seen or played FR thinking, “wow 6 for and 2 against the world must be good.” Well, the real deal is every person pro FR answered and the ones who disliked FR for the most part just left. In the end I’m a nice guy, I don’t want someone to waste his or her hard earned money on FR. And people who are diehard fans are not going to listen to criticism anyway, so it’s not like I’m stopping them. Also I’m curious how you could hate the entire FR world, isn’t there something about FR you actually like? Very, very little. Amusingly about a year or so ago I would have told you a few things. Thing is I found out that my DM made all those things up, or at least stretched them into shape. I once sat down to write what I disliked about the world and realized that it was basically comprehensive. So I think I’ve said enough. People on the fence will probably be wary about FR and that’s a good thing.
The Law 09-22-04, 10:57 AM	//soapbox Here's a thought: some people actually have lives outside of the D&D game. Planning shows some effort put into the game, which leads to a more enjoyable experience for your players, sure. BUT: I'm a software support engineer. My DM is a medical doctor, who often works straight through the night, gets no sleep, but is still on time at 10:00 the next morning for a game and manages to pull off a decent session. The other players have busy professional lives too. My point is this: No one can say 'thou art a clown/lightweight/etc.' for not wanting to map or plan in extreme detail. NEWS FLASH: Its a game. Some of us have demanding jobs, girlfriends, wives, and *gasp* other hobbies. So some of us simply CANT dedicate hours to a game. And to all those anti FR people - NEWSFLASH: opinions differ. Some guys that spend their entire lives typing on a message board could consider themselves 'purists' or whatever and call people with an opinion different to themselves 'fanboys' or stupid or whatever, but guess what: I like FR. Trillions of people do. Are you now going to make up my mind for me what i like and what i dont? Are you a better person or more 'hardcore' for not liking something that I (and trillions of others) do? No, you are not. All of them are cool in there own way. I will never buy Dragonlance, but wont look down on people that play that setting. I realise that the world is made up of many types of people with different likes and dislikes. And if someone wants to truly make me sick, please reply to this by highlighting certain sentences and replying 'in point form'. I'll have a good laugh at your expense. //soapbox
Nhoj509 09-22-04, 01:01 PM	Was it a mistake to buy Eberron? Well, most of the people who read and post here are into Eberron. If I cared about FR, I'd probably read and post there. Do you want to run published adventures? I do, I like to alternate with adventures of my own. Saves time and I get exposed to a lot of coolness I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I have a bunch of worldbooks and adventures. When I want to use a published adventure, I don't limit myself to just the world I'm reffing right at the moment. You know how before you ref a published adventure, you read it over, maybe highlight the things you don't want to miss, and put little notes on the margins about how this event or encounter will affect a certain PC you know well? Or at least read it over well, then again the night before the game? Well, to tailor the adventure to your world, takes just an extra coulple of minutes per gaming hour. First you find all the gods and churches, and switch them to your gods and churches. Then you do the same w/ nations, secret societies and NPC affiliations. You may even change names (XYZ ir'Wawa meets ABC d'Lala). Add some world specific items and spells to important NPCs, sprinkle in a few references to the game world's history, and you are done. So, you don't have to run an FR game to use a FR adventure. You can bring it into Eberron, along with adventures set in Kingdoms of Kalimar, the Scared Lands, the Iron Kingdoms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Freeport, Dungeon, and what have you. Or what you have. ;)
malkav138 09-22-04, 02:44 PM	Wow, what an angry bunch :mymy: Speaking on the main point of the thread. I dont think that it was a mistake to purchase the Eberron book...if you enjoy the material. I have purchased campaign settings many times in the past and never ran them. that doesn't mean I have wasted my money. The best thing about D20 system is that fro the most part all games are pretty much compatable (as in I dont need a calculator to do conversions...most of the time) so I can grab a monster from my Wheel of Time D20 campaign setting and toss it at my players and laugh while they scrath there heads and try and figure out what they just killed( or killed them.) I dont think I have seen this type of antimosity before from the players of the same game (except from chainmail players when DND minis was about to be released...and let me tell you they were a angry lot). Topic 1 MAPS: I let my players take turns making maps, taking notes and rules mongering (the rules monger is the player that has to look up a rule when a rules conflict comes into play and read it to the group.) They feel like they are contributing to the game and my rules monger is quite good. Plus It gives me a few minutes to review my notes on the current game while someone else looks up the rule and debates it (is very difficult to keep track of player interaction with the gameworld when you have 10 players, and it is very difficult to design combat encounters for them). I give all of the players that help a little extra exp, and they really enjoy the extra responsibilty. It also gives me a chance to see what the players are truly interested in, as they choose what to take notes on, and they choose what areas that they are interested in enough to warrant a map. It really helps when designing the adventures to have the player notes from the previous adventure along with my own notes to compare. I have found that by letting the players take passive roles in what information is important I am able to better target the style of the group, and thus everyone has more fun. The short answer is maps are fine, as a DM I map dungeons and I map the whatever locale th Players call home. If the players need other maps i make them draw them. Topic 2 Eberron travel VS. the Indiana Dotted Line method I really enjoy the unique travel modes that are readily available in Eberron. I dont think that it was meant to always be the dotted line effect, but I agree that such an effect could be used. But I must also state that you could essentially use the dotted line method in any type of roleplaying game in any campaign. And personally speaking I have not let my players have access to the unique methods of travel yet in our Eberron game. But when I do I could think of at least 50 types of fun encounters that could happen. So I dont think the dotted line should be used all the time (you would be denying your players the chance for some truly memorable high impact stlye encounters). But I do not think that Eberron removes the need for travel. It just gives more out of the box options for the DM to make travel more interesting, and yes if the style of the campaign dictates the dotted line effect would be perfectly fine by me. Topic 3 Forgotten Realms value meal, Super Sized hold the NPC heroes. I have read so many complaints of character interaction with famous FR NPCs on these boards that it amazes me. If people dislike them so much I wonder why they bother to put them into their world at all? I mean there is some serious angst out there towards some of the NPCs in forgotten Realms. I mean there are a few NPCs in the realms that in my opinion should certainly bow our or die already (I won't mention names, but lets just say that when I see red robed old crustly wizards and dual scimitar weilding drow elves I start feeling aggressive). I personally do not typically use them. But when I was pondering just today I came up with a marvelous ides! (at least I think its marvelous, and I am going to run my next FR game in this fashion). I dont know if it has been discussed on these boards yet, but why not design a campaign that uses the FR setting with the objective of destroying these iconic NPCs. I mean c'mon there are enough them even at low lvls to keep evil PC parties from killing each other. And besides you all know that you want the FR NPCs magical toys anyways (I fondly remember destroying Drizzt in Baldurs gate(video game) and taking his swords.) The game could be a simple hack and slash hunt the FR heroes for loot (would probably be a great game to give those gesault characters from unearthed arcana a day in court) or you could get down and dirty with one of the many vilianous organizations that are already premade in FR. I bet you could take a group of 4 to 20th lvl twice (maybe 3 times) and still have some FR NPCs left to murder. Would be a fun fun way to get a taste of the darkside in your DnD gaming group while while simultaneously avenging yourself for having to put up with years and years of acutely pointed marketing ploys involving the same NPCs invading your gaming groups for years and years. Now don't get me wrong, I love FR, I have all of the material from 3E and 2E but It would just be too much fun to really let a group of malicious players really take a stab at the power structure of the setting, and let them know in advance that if they want to burn Waterdeep to the ground...then go right ahead in fact I will awarding exps for it this time instead of warning them that Kelben Blackstaff may come down from his tower and lay a wuppin on you if you try it( although he still may..in fact that probably a really good way to get him to come out and fight. hmmm .) After all they gave all of these NPCs stats for a reason :) Any body have any good ideas for the initial(first) adventure? I'll have 8-10 1st lvl PCs and am trying to decide which iconic NPCs to go after first. (I love parenthesis) (edited because I love parenthsis and...i no spell to good)
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 09-22-04, 04:01 PM	I dont know if it has been discusssedon these boards yet, but why not design a campaign that uses the FR setting with the objective of destroying these iconic NPCs. :mymy: That... is a GREAT idea. Oh man, it would be frikkin' hilarious, and would be a great opportunity to use so much fun stuff, such as... -(As you mentioned) some of the uber-powerful variants from Unearthed Arcana -A tongue-in-cheek, light-hearted hack-n-slash type game (I'm thinking "8-bit Theater"-ish) -Evil characters (black mage, baby!) -Kill Wulfgar (because I just hate him so much) Jeez, I gotta make a game like this!
stembolt 09-22-04, 08:12 PM	Are you now going to make up my mind for me what i like and what i dont? No, we are just explaining how the things you like are crappy. The rest of your argument is based entirely on not having enough time to game. So what? It takes the same amount of time to plan a FR adventure as it does to plan an Eberron one. If your feeling bad about that I could go back and render it in point form, the way you like.
Bubba333 09-22-04, 09:16 PM	So, do we like Eberron or not? ;) Man! There's no reason to devolve into this.
LordofIllusions 10-19-04, 11:59 AM	Do you expect intelligent players to put up with this? Players basically have two choices if they do not agree with a certain DM's gaming style(Whether they think it is consistent or not.): 1. Ask that he/she change the campaign to fit their tastes(Which may or may not happen.). or 2. Excuse themselves from(Or be kicked out of.) his/her campaign completely. There is nothing a player can demand(Suggesting is something different.) from a DM. If you(As a player.) are not enjoying a certain DM's style of gaming(And the DM does not wish to change his/her style for said players.) the only choice you(As a player) have is to cease playing under said DM. ~~~
Mort_Q 10-19-04, 03:09 PM	Buy them both. It's only money. Me, I prefer Eberron, but mostly because I'm sick of everyone wanting to play a bloody Drow Ranger.
Doc Phobia 10-21-04, 08:31 AM	It seems as though more people are playing Forgotten Realms as opposed to Eberron, which worries me some what. I don't want to have trouble finding an Eberron campaign, or have trouble getting my players to play in it. It also seems as though the Forgotten Realms setting has more books relating to it. Is this because of the length of time Forgotten Realms has been out, or is it due to the fact that hardly anyone plays in Eberron? Dude, I don't think it's going to be Eberron's relative age that's gonna give you trouble finding a campaign to play in. Seriously. :rolleyes: ;) Eberron has been out for less than a year. People take a while to embrace change. Of course not as many people will be playing Eberron as will be playing FR. I have a question though. Specifically for those wielding the 'canon cannons'. ;) How are you going to run an Eberron campaign? What are you going to do as the published detail of Eberron gets bigger and bigger and more and more divergent from your homebrewed version? Are you only going to run published adventures and use published NPCs etc? Or are you just going to run with whatever the heck you as DM want to put in it? I for one believe that D&D is supposed to be about a group of folks having fun. I don't want to have campaign-setting-X-fanboy tell me that "it can't be that way because in the XXX book they said ..." The feel of Eberron is what I think is most important. Forget incorporating every last detail from everything published. If your campaign feels like Eberron and your players are enjoying themselves, then it is a success. I guess I prefer imagination and fun over metagaming and minutiae, but your mileage many vary ... ;)
Larac 10-21-04, 02:11 PM	I really like Eberron. Starting to GM a game in Albequirky NM. That said, I wish sores in the dark places of the body, on the editor who wanted GM only info in the same paragraph as needed player info. The setting really needs a good Player Info Pack. I wish this was something the community could do, but if the attacks form the Eberron yahoo group is any indication, people who have no involvment with WOTC would try to sue me for creating it. Great setting, bad lay out. Khovaire would make a great addition to FR, just stick it way out in an ocean. Lee
LordofIllusions 10-21-04, 02:17 PM	Dude, I don't think it's going to be Eberron's relative age that's gonna give you trouble finding a campaign to play in. Seriously. :rolleyes: ;) Eberron has been out for less than a year. People take a while to embrace change. Of course not as many people will be playing Eberron as will be playing FR. I have a question though. Specifically for those wielding the 'canon cannons'. ;) How are you going to run an Eberron campaign? What are you going to do as the published detail of Eberron gets bigger and bigger and more and more divergent from your homebrewed version? Are you only going to run published adventures and use published NPCs etc? Or are you just going to run with whatever the heck you as DM want to put in it? I for one believe that D&D is supposed to be about a group of folks having fun. I don't want to have campaign-setting-X-fanboy tell me that "it can't be that way because in the XXX book they said ..." The feel of Eberron is what I think is most important. Forget incorporating every last detail from everything published. If your campaign feels like Eberron and your players are enjoying themselves, then it is a success. I guess I prefer imagination and fun over metagaming and minutiae, but your mileage many vary ... ;) Um, You need to fix the name in your quote(It says that it was originally posted by LordofIllusions.), that is not my statement at all. What you have quoted was a post made by the original author of this thread(Not I.). ~~~
nyysjan 10-21-04, 03:23 PM	About the dotted line VS detailed travel. Why not make the travel be the adventure party is hired by some dude to do something but firs they need to go to the otherside of the continent and the dude/Dudette? gives the tickets to lightning rail but the real action happens while the rail is moving Agatha Christie "Oriental Express" anyone only light minor modifications needed. Plus no drow rangers for me give me an Chaotic Evil drow wizard any day.
Doc Phobia 10-22-04, 06:31 AM	Um, You need to fix the name in your quote(It says that it was originally posted by LordofIllusions.), that is not my statement at all. What you have quoted was a post made by the original author of this thread(Not I.). ~~~ Ah, I see you gave up on the "QUOTE" mechanism. When you post as lengthy a message as most of yours seem to be, it makes it difficult when you do for most of it and then don't. That being said - my bad. Sorry. :D The quote is not yours. But I stand behind my original sentiment. :P
Sebberoth 10-23-04, 11:51 AM	Me, I personally Think that both settings have equall merit, as do both arguments, yes the Realms have the vast amount of books, suppliments e.t.c.,but Ebberon is a new exiting venture, so why not play both and alternate between each setting every now and again
Banshee 10-23-04, 12:08 PM	They're completely different settings, so it all depends on what you want. Contrary to what some would have you believe, every setting has worth. Eberron is just getting started, so there is very little that has been released. But it will be getting support, and you have the chance to get in at the ground floor. It's a high magic setting, with a completely new take on a lot of things, like how the core races fit in, etc. It's built for 3E, so hasn't been "bent" to fit the ruleset. But it's not your typical, Middle-Earth clone type world. Forgotten Realms is more "traditional". If you like traditional, that's probably what you should look at. It has a lot of players, a tonne of support material, and is easy to slip into. Regardless of whether there's a lot of material, take a look at the book, and just determine if you think it's a world you could play in or run. Banshee
LordofIllusions 10-25-04, 11:05 AM	Ah, I see you gave up on the "QUOTE" mechanism. When you post as lengthy a message as most of yours seem to be, it makes it difficult when you do for most of it and then don't. Irrelevant, the point is you made a mistake which was in need of correction. The quote is not yours. This statement was not neccessary, I was the one that informed you of the mistake, remember ? But I stand behind my original sentiment. :P Good for you. ~~~