Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 02:24 PM	Well...I see WOTC are pushing hard on the latest D&D World. Just like before. Oh, but this time it was proposed by one of their friends in an 'open' competetion. Yeah,right. Well, having read a lot (not all, I admit) the material, I fail to see what is particularly original. Just another bunch of prestige classes with +1 here and -1 there, in essence. I thought the competition was to design something "different". Oh, sorry, was that supposed to have read "marketable", but then the WOTC website tells us why we MUST buy it each product...... Not impressed. What's the next World going to be? Do we all get to play Prestige Accountants and Sales Executives? Oh, no, that WOTC job.
Okami 01-31-05, 02:44 PM	Everyone is entitled to their opinion.. and hey, you're bound to save lots of money by not buying into the Eberron line. furthermore looks like their marketing department is pretty effective if you felt you in some way absplutely had to buy their product, let alone take the time to go onto their public message boards and waste precious server space with how displeased you are a corporation sucessfully works to produce and sell a product.. WOTC is not your mom. If you don't like their products move along and find something you do like or make it yourself instead of being so rude as to spew worthless drivel in the same forum that the designer works incredbly hard to make people who appreciate his work happy and further enrich the product.
Edymnion 01-31-05, 02:44 PM	I think that you need to stop reading just the crunchy bits and actually read the details of the setting. A setting has nothing to do with what races and classes are in it, and everything to do with the world itself. If you haven't read the setting descriptions, the nation stuff, and all that, then you haven't read the setting, IMO.
fizzbang 01-31-05, 02:50 PM	I'm going to assume that you're here for discussion, rather than just to start flames. If this is the case, please let me know. What about Eberron is unoriginal in your view? I'll admit that it's not a radically different world in terms of rules, but as it had to be made so that the core rules all fit in, that's not so surprising. Even as it is, there are many "hardcore" D&D players who have already raised major complaints about it being "too strange" or "too modern". Now, what I find very different about Eberron is the feel of the setting, which is something that you may or may not have gotten from just a brief scan of the book. The entire setting is built with regards for how the world would work if the power and convenience of even low-level magic was applied to daily life. Edymnion coined an excellent term for this sort of world where low-power magic is commonly available for convenient uses: "wide-magic fantasy" (as opposed to "high-magic fantasy", like in many Fantasy Realities in D&D). Even more subtly, the new feels of the setting encourage a lot more maturity in players, because things are much less broad and obvious than they are in other D&D settings. The setting blurs the line between the alignments, makes faith and religion much less obvious, and encourages complex intrigue and subtle manipulations. You can still run a simple hack & slash in the setting if you want to, but you'll be ignoring its rich potential for complex political maneuvering and noir-style uncertainty. Furthermore, the setting focuses on the idea that most of the world's NPCs are low-level, and that the big threats taht are out there keep each other in check only because they're all at each other's throats. This seething cauldron of trouble is waiting for the age's next great heroes to emerge, and the setting is built so that the PCs are ready to become those heroes. There are very few powerful forces out there, so the PCs can't simply rely on Archy McArchmage to save the day if they botch their attempt. To further this pulpy feel of heroism, players have action points that encourage them to try things that may be a little out of their league, and ensure that they can draw on a little bit of luck when things get tough. I think Eberron brings a lot of new potential to the D&D rules, and I'm sorry that you're not impressed. Perhaps you might want to go back and take a closer look at the setting again, or is there something in particular that you don't like?
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 03:06 PM	Firstly, I didnt buy it. I borrowed it. Making assumptions on notice boards is always a no hoper, isnt it. The idea of low level magic was already done in the Shining South (FR). As have all the other ideas - political intrigue...Greyhawk. I really don't see what is at all radical. Sorry, but I think its just clever marketing. Put on a new label and people will buy it. Just like all the 3.0 Products, they've ALL been done before, in one shape or another - they've even got the gall to charge the punters for errors they made in 3.0, because it wasn't properly tested, and SELL it as 3.5. Just take a look at the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Just a rewrite for those who obsess who rules changes being 'official' How does the word official even get used in combination with talking about an RPG!!! Eberron, in my opinion (which I am sticking too, despite those who wish to defend their purchases) just doesn't hold up. The marketing campaign is impressive and it will ensure some success, But in the long run its just another Birthright, RedSteel, etc, etc As for the designer working hard, he has more or less admitted that he's making it up as he goes along - the initial one page submission was ..well...one page. What do you suppose was written on it that was so mind-blowing? People here are asking the guy questions like he has actually created and USED the whole thing. You people are all welcome to your love of the new setting.Enjoy it while it lasts, if it lights your candle. It won't last.
Ricohard_Draconis 01-31-05, 03:23 PM	Sorry, but I think its just clever marketing. Put on a new label and people will buy it. Just like all the 3.0 Products, they've ALL been done before, in one shape or another - they've even got the gall to charge the punters for errors they made in 3.0, because it wasn't properly tested, and SELL it as 3.5. But this hasn't been done before, yes there are factors of it that turn up in other settings and books but where else do players have to work against planar invasion, infiltrating demons and dragons who know what your going to do before your even born. And if you arguement is that it's not original, then do you also dislike greyhawk/ forgotten realms becaused they're based on Middle Earth. Eberron, in my opinion (which I am sticking too, despite those who wish to defend their purchases) just doesn't hold up. The marketing campaign is impressive and it will ensure some success, But in the long run its just another Birthright, RedSteel, etc, etc If your not going to listen to the arguements put foreward by us then why are you bothering to post, just to vent steam? Secondly yes its got a chance of going that way but its got an equal chance of becomeing the next Forgotten Realms. As for the designer working hard, he has more or less admitted that he's making it up as he goes along - . doesn't this disagree with your first point that he's basically stolen it all from other places anyway? Anyway, i like that eberron is an organic setting that is changing and growing as we watch it. I don't use all the things that Keith creates in the dragonshards but i like the fact that he's there and is doing what he is as its a great advantage.
Sharn Inquisitor 01-31-05, 03:29 PM	I have to agree with the antagonist that WoTC has gotten on some nerves with the making of 3.0 and then the soon after revision to 3.5, myself and my players included. That being said, we need to face facts. Marketing, sales and accounting are what drive the corporate world. If we don't want Wizards to survive and DnD products to be produced, we can all keep from buying any new materials and watch as TSR...I mean Wizards goes down the drain. Let's face it, stagnant product, etc. caused DnD to all but disappear years ago under TSRs leadership. I enjoy Eberron. My players do to. Is it all just clever marketing for the same old game? Who cares. We enjoy it, and are all tired of the same old Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. You can't really understand the Eberron mystique until you've read, and re-read the ECS and allowed yourself to "buy" into the differences in the setting. Thankfully, none of my team has invested in any of the newer FR or Greyhawk materials, so the two Eberron books we've gotten seem like a small investment. Besides, it's nice to be on the front end of a new campaign.
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 03:41 PM	I have to agree with the antagonist that WoTC has gotten on some nerves with the making of 3.0 and then the soon after revision to 3.5, myself and my players included. That being said, we need to face facts. Marketing, sales and accounting are what drive the corporate world. If we don't want Wizards to survive and DnD products to be produced, we can all keep from buying any new materials and watch as TSR...I mean Wizards goes down the drain. Let's face it, stagnant product, etc. caused DnD to all but disappear years ago under TSRs leadership. I enjoy Eberron. My players do to. Is it all just clever marketing for the same old game? Who cares. We enjoy it, and are all tired of the same old Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. You can't really understand the Eberron mystique until you've read, and re-read the ECS and allowed yourself to "buy" into the differences in the setting. Thankfully, none of my team has invested in any of the newer FR or Greyhawk materials, so the two Eberron books we've gotten seem like a small investment. Besides, it's nice to be on the front end of a new campaign. Some good points. Obvisously written by a human soul and not a WOTC-sicophant.
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 03:43 PM	And one more thing, goddammit, why is one of the main cities have the same name as a FR beast. Even the names are recycled!!!! (though I don't supposed it a FR original either) (incidentally I am not a fan of FR either particuarly!)
Gurv 01-31-05, 03:53 PM	I've never bought any official setting before Eberron. I read them first, and didn't find anything of interest. So I didn't buy them. I recommend the same to anyone who reads the Eberron setting and feels the same. As far as marketing campaigns go, I consider the fact that WotC has put money into one a fantastic development. I think they did a miserable job with it, because the two times it came to my attention (and I live D&D), I hated what I was seeing. "Magic-and-technology"? "Half-golems, half-lycans, and half-dopplegangers"? "Is that a fricking train?!" was all I got out of the advertising campaign. But I love Eberron. There is remarkably little 'rules' compared to the elegant storyline that makes everything, and I mean everything, fit into the whole. I don't have to defend the setting with a rant, because I know that you didn't read it. You might have flipped through it, read the PrC and the feats maybe. But I know that you didn't read the whole thing. Sheer ignorance. What I don't understand is...if you don't like something, why do you feel the need to seek out those who do and tell them that they are wrong?
Bluebrush 01-31-05, 03:54 PM	Which city? (For those of us lacking in FR knowledge.)
Gurv 01-31-05, 03:57 PM	Which city? (For those of us lacking in FR knowledge.) He means Sharn. In FR, they were a weird, super-powered magical...something. My knowledge of them is limited. Other than they were one of more than a dozen things that constantly threatened to destroy FR. Personally, I would say that the reason that the name was reused was that Eberron isn't ripping people off. The name came from sheer ignorance that there was a creature by that name.
fizzbang 01-31-05, 03:58 PM	Firstly, I didnt buy it. I borrowed it. Making assumptions on notice boards is always a no hoper, isnt it. ... You people are all welcome to your love of the new setting.Enjoy it while it lasts, if it lights your candle. It won't last. Ah. I had assumed you were here for discussion, rather than just to start flames. As you point out, assumptions aren't always a good idea with some people.
Edymnion 01-31-05, 03:58 PM	Just take a look at the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Just a rewriteOkay, I'm thinking he's here just to cause trouble now. 3.0 Psionics sucked, but the XPH made them not only playable, but quite nice to use at the same time. If he had actually read the PH and the XPH, he should have known this. So, he is either here just to stir up trouble, or he's just pulling stuff out of thin air, as he obviously hasn't actually read what he's dissing. Now, don't get me wrong, I'll be one of the first ones in the line to say 3.5 was nothing short of a money grab, and that more and more often WotC is putting out crap books that are nothing more than a sorry attempt to bilk the players out of more money *cough*RacesOfDestiny*cough*. But with all due respect to the guy, he's singling out two of the best post 3.5 books that WotC has put out, and two of the best books WotC has put out, period. Perhaps he has something bad to say about the Draconomicon while he's at it? AntiGenesis, if you're here for a real discussion, we'll be happy to accomedate you. If you're just here to say that Eberron sucks and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "WOTC-sicophant", it won't take long for the mods to give you the boot. So you might want to tone it down a bit.
Ksaturn 01-31-05, 03:59 PM	I for one, am thouroghly ****** at pre-mature publishings like 3.0 and psionics handbook. They were almost immediadly replaced by virtual copies that had many improvements that should've been avaliable to the original purchase. Ebberon however is a new idea and one that has a new feel that i like much more than the one typically attached to forgotten realms. Despite this, I am (or was at some point) a fan of Drizzt, Birthright, and Spelljammer amoung other Campain Settings/products and this purchase has a very different feel from buying and reading a bloody remake. It seems however Anti-Genisis you've had it in for Ebberon sinse before you came here and won't change you opinion no matter what 'obvious fans' would say. Frankly I don't care though... Ebberon was worth the money just to read let alone play.
motorfirebox 01-31-05, 04:15 PM	somebody help me out, here, and clue me in to what's being argued? the point of contention seems to be "omg ebberon sucks adn wotc si lame!!1!", only with more words and better spelling. is that about the score?
Edymnion 01-31-05, 04:29 PM	somebody help me out, here, and clue me in to what's being argued? the point of contention seems to be "omg ebberon sucks adn wotc si lame!!1!", only with more words and better spelling. is that about the score?Yup, that seems to sum it up pretty nicely. :)
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 04:58 PM	somebody help me out, here, and clue me in to what's being argued? the point of contention seems to be "omg ebberon sucks adn wotc si lame!!1!", only with more words and better spelling. is that about the score? Pretty much, and the fact that some people don't read anything people actually say, they just assume an awful lot, which makes posting on the forum pretty hit and miss. To respond to an earlier comment I have used the Psionics hand book and all editions previous, right back to AD&D. Actually I have been a DM for over 20 years, regularly, and have been lucky to play a great game; my work enables me to get a look at ALL D&D publications. Don't get me wrong I am grateful to WOTC for keeping it alive - but I am not grateful for mangling it and re-mangling it, just to keep the money coming in. More different stuff is welcome (they do need to get money,after all!), but recycling is not. But then for new players to the game (10 years and less?) they don't know any better......and they want new blood. The older players have already got all the products, so they are of little interest to the company (do I sound cynical yet....) And yes, I do have an issue with WOTC sicophants who think that the Word of WOTC is some kind of gospel. What on earth is all this 'official rulings' nonsense; what is D&D , an olympic sport or something now? As for the errata of errata, don't get me started on that one...... But, returning, just, to the original thread; I have read the Eberron campaign in some detail, despite assumptions made here , thought very little of the expansions. I just find the whole unoriginal, from the distasteful set-up competition winner thing, to the whole recycling isssue of old ideas. And what tops it off for me is people hailing it as some kind of revolutionary setting. How many people out there have designed their own setting? I am sure quite a few of you have and you know it takes YEARS to do it properly, not just a few ideas jotted on a page on A4. I have played many worlds, TSR, Hasbro, home-made. download, and in summary I still have to say that Eberron offers very little new. If anyone can really give a counter example, I'm all ears. Everything mentioned so far has been done. Maybe I will give it a go, but from experience, I see little that will keep my players interests long term. I still welcome comments from people who have actually played D&D for more than a few years. I do NOT mean to sound snobbish, but my rant is really for experienced RPG'ers and not hormonal teenagers who just get stroppy if I dish their favourite little game, or WOTC employers, share-holders, blah blah.
Okami 01-31-05, 05:07 PM	somebody help me out, here, and clue me in to what's being argued? the point of contention seems to be "omg ebberon sucks adn wotc si lame!!1!", only with more words and better spelling. is that about the score? That's about the score.. with a dash of damn the man thrown in for flavor. We are all but mindless drones who beg for whatever Wotc delivers. Wotc obviously being an assembly of robotic overlords who have somehow managed to perfect the brainwash via CCG/RPG technique, rendering us powerless to their marketing ploys. Keith is just some guy who may or may not be just making it up on the fly , but has managed to dominate the minds of the legions of Eberron fan-zombies. If all you want is a supplement to your same old same old game then Eberron is definatly not for you. The classes/races/etc. are, in my opinion, great but honestly nothing to completely revolutionize DnD. However within the complexities and flavor of the setting there is a wealth of fresh inspiration for those of us who do not have all of the books AntiGenesis believe this setting references or the aversion he seems to have have to something new. It is just a product.. you dont have to buy it.
JabBond 01-31-05, 05:38 PM	But then for new players to the game (10 years and less?) they don't know any better......and they want new blood. The older players have already got all the products, so they are of little interest to the company (do I sound cynical yet....) And yes, I do have an issue with WOTC sicophants who think that the Word of WOTC is some kind of gospel. What on earth is all this 'official rulings' nonsense; what is D&D , an olympic sport or something now? As for the errata of errata, don't get me started on that one...... ... I just find the whole unoriginal, from the distasteful set-up competition winner thing, to the whole recycling isssue of old ideas. And what tops it off for me is people hailing it as some kind of revolutionary setting. How many people out there have designed their own setting? I am sure quite a few of you have and you know it takes YEARS to do it properly, not just a few ideas jotted on a page on A4. I have played many worlds, TSR, Hasbro, home-made. download, and in summary I still have to say that Eberron offers very little new. If anyone can really give a counter example, I'm all ears. Everything mentioned so far has been done. Maybe I will give it a go, but from experience, I see little that will keep my players interests long term. I still welcome comments from people who have actually played D&D for more than a few years. I do NOT mean to sound snobbish, but my rant is really for experienced RPG'ers and not hormonal teenagers who just get stroppy if I dish their favourite little game, or WOTC employers, share-holders, blah blah. Well, I'd fall into that group. I've been playing for over a decade now, and I'm one of the newest to the game in my (wide) gaming circle. We own so many products it's not funny, going all the way back to the boxed little booklets. We had no need for a new setting. And yet, we have devoured Eberron like there's no tomorrow. This setting has grabbed our attention like huge over-novelized worlds such as Forgotten Realms have not been able to do. It's a new frontier, and we're at the head of the gold rush. Many of the ideas, such as alignment-blur and church/race conflict have cropped up in our homebrews, and it's nice to see that in a published, supported setting. Speaking of that support (official rulings, errata, etc.), those are invaluable for those of us who play at conventions or gaming shops, so that we're all on the same page and don't spend an hour explaining all our home rules! I don't know where you get the idea that Keith Baker didn't use this world before submitting it. Or that it was some kind of inside set-up contest. I read about some of the increasingly detailed requirements from submitters, and you couldn't have just thrown that together on the fly. The published edition may be a bit more generic than what Mr. Baker uses at home, but that is probably just so it can reach a big audience. I've never seen anything like a train in D&D, except in Victorian-era homebrews. The cosmology is refreshingly planet-like, rather than onion-layers. I feel psionics is more balanced now, has more of a place in Eberron than in ANY other world I've seen. And I've seen many.
Edymnion 01-31-05, 05:45 PM	To respond to an earlier comment I have used the Psionics hand book and all editions previous, right back to AD&D.Then you should remember how funky 2e Psionics were. And you should remember how clunky 3.0 Psionic Combat modes were. The XPH fixes everything that was wrong with Psionics, IMO.And yes, I do have an issue with WOTC sicophants who think that the Word of WOTC is some kind of gospel. What on earth is all this 'official rulings' nonsense; what is D&D , an olympic sport or something now?These are public message boards used by people around the world. When we discuss things here, we MUST have a common referance point to be able to discuss anything. That common point is the rules. When it comes to discussing things, it is always assumed that the official rules are being used, and not the DM's individual house rules. Without this common point, there would be no point in discussing anything, as no rule would apply across the board, and there would be chaos. Again, if you remember your 2e, every DM essentially had his own version of the game that would bear little resemblance to anyone else's game because of what they decided to use, not use, change, etc. Does this game use racial limits to classes? Can you have an Elf Paladin? 2e rules often ment that the DM had to make many things up as he went along, hence the games being so differant from one DM to another. Anything official is just that, it comes form Wizards of the Coast, and we can be relatively sure that it will work with everything else they've made without causing major problems. That isn't always the case, but generally speaking, you can pick a character up out of any randon game and put them down into another random game and keep going like nothing happened. When a lot of unofficial stuff is used, it then becomes issues of whether or not the DM is going to allow it or not, if it really is balanced or if the last DM just didn't notice how bad it was, or whatever else. And, unlike in the TSR days, there is a WIDE selection of third party publishers that are putting out anything and everything they want for D&D. In the old days, TSR sued anybody that so much as said "D&D", or at least they wanted to. Hence the classic spelling of T$R. Today, with everybody and their grandpas with a hand crank printing press or a PDF maker can release books with little or no playtesting or reguards for if it actually works or not. So, its important to have a distinction. Hence the focus on "official" material. I just find the whole unoriginal, from the distasteful set-up competition winner thing, to the whole recycling isssue of old ideas.I thought the idea of the competition was a brilliant move on their part, personally. They paid a relatively minor price ($10,000) for a fully developed setting, while Keith Baker (the guy that won and a regular poster here) got lots of money, prestige, and instant stardom. Good deal all around in my book. And what tops it off for me is people hailing it as some kind of revolutionary setting. How many people out there have designed their own setting? I am sure quite a few of you have and you know it takes YEARS to do it properly, not just a few ideas jotted on a page on A4.Um, the winner was an established designer in his own right, and has done several books for other companies. Trust me, he didn't just wipe his butt on a postcard and send it in as an idea, it was a world he put massive amounts of detail into, which I am surprised you didn't pick up on if you have truely read as much of the ECS as you claim.I have played many worlds, TSR, Hasbro, home-made. download, and in summary I still have to say that Eberron offers very little new.Then you should also have realized by now that there is nothing new under the sun. Greyhawk and Faerun are virtual carbon copies of each other, and both of them are based off of Tolkien. Just like the Flintstones are just a remake of the Honeymooners. There really aren't any "new" ideas anymore. In some 5,000 years of history, everything has pretty much been thought of.If anyone can really give a counter example, I'm all ears. Everything mentioned so far has been done.Yes, and there is NOTHING in D&D, in any edition, that hasn't been done before. D&D itself was nothing more than an evolution of tabletop wargaming. All of the monsters were ripped straight out of mythology or Tolkien at the beginning, and there is really nothing original about any of it, if you want to get down to a case by case basis. I still welcome comments from people who have actually played D&D for more than a few years.Been playing for about a decade now. Started out back in 2e. I do NOT mean to sound snobbish, but my rant is really for experienced RPG'ers and not hormonal teenagers who just get stroppy if I dish their favourite little game, or WOTC employers, share-holders, blah blah.1) Broad generalizations are bad. If you've been a DM for 20 years, that means you've got to be at least 30, I would expect that you would have learned that you cannot make broad statements like that and get even half of the effect you were going for. 2) You are on the WotC boards, in a section devoted to Eberron. You come into what is essentially the home base for everyone that likes the setting, say it sucks, and are surprised when people dissagree with you? Man, its like walking into a superbowl party and saying "Football is for braindead losers with beer bellies bigger than their cars", and then trying to pass it off as "Oh, well I wasn't aiming that statement at people that think football is great and are huge fans of the players." What did you expect would happen?
Okami 01-31-05, 05:59 PM	Pretty much, and the fact that some people don't read anything people actually say, they just assume an awful lot, which makes posting on the forum pretty hit and miss. Apologies if your lack of relevant disclosure on your gaming status made it seem as if we were making presumptions. Now that you have explained a bit more I have to ask why do you care? I don't mean that with any disrespect or to start anything other than to ascertain if you understand that it is possible to pretend that the new biggest bestest thing from the evil empire doesn't exist. I would hope the familiarity you have with the system and concepts within has allowed you to create a fantastic setting for your players. With your earlier rejection of Eberron and now criticism of newer players it seems you would prefer to eliminate the option of choice for those who may not know what you know or find the creativity of others to be a positive thing. If you think you can do better then you should, otherwise don't criticize those who have put forth effort into creating a setting or those who choose to use it.
Gurv 01-31-05, 06:01 PM	I've been playing for 13 years now. I wasn't really thinking of myself as a one of those "hormonal teenagers who just get stroppy if I dish their favourite little game". I also know quite a bit about Keith Baker, and have seen some of his other writing. Suggesting that he is not a skilled writer, in on some conspiracy by WotC, is just mean. Keith has put a great deal of effort into his work, and I am offended that you would target him to make your claims. I know that you signed up to these Boards just so that you could get a rise out of us. I'm not sure what Eberron did to you to make you dislike it that much. Most people who see something that doesn't interest them don't go on tirades with what pretty much amounts to the fan club. So. I'm curious. What clever, ingeniously creative, massively awesome thing do you have in your game that contrasts so overwhelmingly with Eberron that you have to sign up to a message board run by a company you don't like, just to express how not-cool their product is? Lets hear it. Something, anything, that you would have done better.
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 06:49 PM	2) You are on the WotC boards, in a section devoted to Eberron. You come into what is essentially the home base for everyone that likes the setting, say it sucks, and are surprised when people dissagree with you? Man, its like walking into a superbowl party and saying "Football is for braindead losers with beer bellies bigger than their cars", and then trying to pass it off as "Oh, well I wasn't aiming that statement at people that think football is great and are huge fans of the players." What did you expect would happen? I want to know why people bother with Eberron. What does it for them. Where do you suggest I find such information?The Pokemon yahoo group?
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 06:53 PM	So. I'm curious. What clever, ingeniously creative, massively awesome thing do you have in your game that contrasts so overwhelmingly with Eberron that you have to sign up to a message board run by a company you don't like, just to express how not-cool their product is? Lets hear it. Something, anything, that you would have done better. I am also curious, as I never mentioned I had anything clever and ingenious. Some of my stuff is pretty good, I'm told, but then many others I am sure have done way better than me. My point is that I think Eberron is nothing special. OK? Got it now? Still waiting for someone to convnce me. I am OPEN minded here. So far, all I've got is a load of fans cheering 'its great' ok, but WHY is it great? THink it will would help if some posters (please note the word 'some') actually read my posts - its like Chinese whispers on here. (And if you seriously expect me to post all the notes of a campaign world on here, you've gotta be joking, as I have no intention of doing that much typing or probably boring you guys half to death)
Edymnion 01-31-05, 06:58 PM	I want to know why people bother with Eberron. What does it for them. Well, next time, try asking it that way instead of coming in with "I think Eberron is the dumbest, most unoriginal thing I have ever seen!", and you'll get much more productive replies. More flies with honey than vinegar and all that. As for why, have you seen This Thread?
Splendide 01-31-05, 07:14 PM	I am guessing that anti-genesis was either an avid Dark Sun or Planescape player.
AntiGenesis 01-31-05, 07:18 PM	Well, next time, try asking it that way instead of coming in with "I think Eberron is the dumbest, most unoriginal thing I have ever seen!", and you'll get much more productive replies. More flies with honey than vinegar and all that. As for why, have you seen This Thread? So where did I say that then. Really rather bored of this forum already. bye all
Edymnion 01-31-05, 07:36 PM	So where did I say that then. Alrighty then. "Oh, but this time it was proposed by one of their friends in an 'open' competetion. Yeah,right." You insinuate that the contest was rigged, and that the setting did not win through any merit of it's own. "I fail to see what is particularly original. Just another bunch of prestige classes with +1 here and -1 there" You call it unoriginal and uninspired. "What's the next World going to be? Do we all get to play Prestige Accountants and Sales Executives? Oh, no, that WOTC job." You make a snide referance to WotC's next big thing is going to be bland and boring, which in context can only be read as a hit on Eberron. "Sorry, but I think its just clever marketing." As in, its all hype and nothing to support it. "Put on a new label and people will buy it." You claim its the same old stuff they already made. "Eberron, in my opinion (which I am sticking too, despite those who wish to defend their purchases) just doesn't hold up." You say that Eberron doesn't hold up, that it is sub-par. "As for the designer working hard, he has more or less admitted that he's making it up as he goes along - the initial one page submission was ..well...one page. What do you suppose was written on it that was so mind-blowing? People here are asking the guy questions like he has actually created and USED the whole thing." You insinuate that the man that created the setting is a hack in that he admits that he made it up as he went (how else do you make something up?). The initial submission was one page, because thats the size limit WotC imposed on first round entries. They didn't want to read through some 11,000 seperate settings when they were a hundred pages long. "Enjoy it while it lasts, if it lights your candle. It won't last." You say that the setting is going to die soon. "not a WOTC-sicophant" You call people that support the setting WotC sicophants, implying that anyone likes it is just a mindless yes-man that is sucking up just for the sake of sucking up. "but I am not grateful for mangling it and re-mangling it, just to keep the money coming in." You basically claim that Eberron is a mangling of the game. "not just a few ideas jotted on a page on A4." Again you imply that Eberron is just an overgrown scribble. "my rant is really for experienced RPG'ers and not hormonal teenagers who just get stroppy if I dish their favourite little game, or WOTC employers, share-holders, blah blah." Okay, so people that dissagree with you are hormonal teenagers that fly off the handle at nothing at all. But, I likely just reread all of the thread for nothing, seeing as he already left. :)
Gurv 01-31-05, 07:45 PM	We can only hope. Posting a negative opinion on something, and then not backing it up? Then asking those who have a good opinion about it to give reasons? Then ignoring those reasons and/or calling them hormonal teenagers when they do? He claims he wants input from us, but insults anyone who posts any. If he is an example of an old-school gamer, I'll have to go find some teenagers. They must be more mature than that.
motorfirebox 01-31-05, 07:49 PM	it only took the guy five posts to get to the point where he could say exactly what it was he'd started the thread for. and then he wonders why people suspect he's only here to poo in people's cheerios! couldn't be because he spent around 300 times as many words doing just that, instead of asking questions and making points that might generate actual discussion, could it? trolling, even dressed up in highfalutin' talk and ten-cent-words, is still trolling. here's a counterchallenge that antigenisis, having told us he's leaving, will hopefully have the intellectual honesty to not read: find me any fiction in the past century that doesn't in some way draw on other fiction that's come before it. all fiction is recycled, lackwit. it's how things work.
Puppy 01-31-05, 08:01 PM	find me any fiction in the past century that doesn't in some way draw on other fiction that's come before it. all fiction is recycled, lackwit. it's how things work. Very true. It's what's known as postmodernism. It can be applied to movies like Matrix and Blade Runner. It's basically about 'borrowing' ideas from other works and cultures and applying them in a new way to create something special and unique. Special and unique like the Eberron setting. Don't think this guy understood that and just complains about the crunch of the setting rather than focusing on it as a whole. Btw, very wise words Edmynion.
Edymnion 01-31-05, 08:06 PM	all fiction is recycled, lackwit.Come on, lets not resort to calling him names, otherwise we just sink down to his level.
Puppy 01-31-05, 08:06 PM	Also, I'm very proud of the level the participants of this discussion has kept themselves on. In any other fanboard, AntiGenesis would most certainly just have been flamed off the board. Maybe that was what he was trying to accomplish? For me, this says alot about what kind of fans Eberron has; intelligent, reflected and mature. Glad to be one of you, guys.
Isran_Imrador 01-31-05, 08:54 PM	I think if you read up on some of the many "why we love eberron threads" here at this forum. And you and your players check out how Eberron workes for you all! You migth even enjoy it :) Did you read Edys Thread? Now i havent played as long as you, But i would dare to say that your pcs are going to see new challenges in Eberron! And if you think we are all lapdogs of WotC, well you should have been here last week to see this ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=367949 ) Thread about a Change in the cover of the upcoming Races of Eberron book... By the way what settings do you like? if any? (and why?)
motorfirebox 01-31-05, 09:29 PM	but i like calling people names. it's fun!
Sturm Jaeger 01-31-05, 09:30 PM	I like Eberron. I like the themes and feel of it. I like the new stuff and the new takes on old stuff. I'm not a WotC sicophant. I don't like a lot of what they do. But I'm not here to go into that stuff. Are some ideas taken from other sources? Sure, but that happens. It's not something you can completely avoid. But Eberron has enough original ideas and twists on things to keep it interesting. And they're threaded together into an overall tapestry I find enjoyable.
Kaverael 01-31-05, 10:49 PM	I was introduced to D&D while in bootcamp in 1983 and spent the next ten years playing like a madman, you name it we played it: Ravenloft, Oriental Adventures, homebrews, etc... By 1993 or so, 2nd Edition was getting pretty stale, and I was maturing out of the hack-n-slash mode, looking for a more "role-playing" experience. Every product on the market was based on the "kill monster-get xp, level up, get more magic stuff" model. To my wife's delight, I dropped out of the D&D scene until a chance encounter with an old D&D buddy last year who asked me to drop into his game. After some internet research on what was new in the D&D world, I found Eberron, and BAM! I'm hooked. WOTC must be doing something right, because of Eberron I went out and purchased all three core 3.5 books, ECS, Sharn-City of Towers, all three published adventures, and a couple of other resource books. Now for the reason why I bought into the Eberron craze: 1. Eberron was not designed to be a hack-n-slash setting, though if that's what you want to do, you could always throw that in. 2. Blurred alignments- ever try to justify a paladin in a party of adventurers who pilfer the bodies of the people they kill. Sparhawk the Pandion Knight could not exist in the old D&D universe. 3. Wide-spread low level magic. 4. Warforged, Shifters and Changelings...Oh my! 5. An entire race devoted to psionics-Kalashtar (even though I am not a big fan of psionics, but I know that there is a large following and it's good to see WOTC flesh it out and give it some in-world justification) 6. Dark and gritty film-noir feel- Sharn/Gotham City :evillaugh 7. Expanded Urban Adventures. My favorite though is the way that you can put almost any genre of rpg into play. You can add Wild-West elements with the Lightning Rail and Orien caravans, Spelljammer elements with Elemental-Powered Airships, Top-Secret elements with the Aurum, the Trust and other shadow organizations. So, does that give you the answers you were looking for?
Edymnion 01-31-05, 11:14 PM	6. Dark and gritty film-noir feel- Sharn/Gotham City :evillaugh Hey, just as a side note, if you like the Gotham City feel, check Complete Adventurer. It basically has a Batman PrC in it. Plus its easily the best of the 4 Complete XXXX books, so its not like you'd be buying it just for one PrC. And while you're at it, Unearthed Arcana has a wonderful Urban Ranger varient in it that just flows right into the Vigilante PrC I mentioned earlier. Lots of other great stuff for roleplaying in UA too, like Honor systems and Reputations. Definately at least pick those two up in a book store long enough to flip through them for a while and check 'em out. They're both pretty nice. Oh, and since you were in the military, you should enjoy this: http://www.skippyslist.com/