Dilemma about my Campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dilemma about my Campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saurenda
07-07-04, 04:57 PM It may sound a little strange but after three sessions my players are still level 2, despite the amount of things they have seen and accomplished in Breland.

I wanted to hold it off for a little while longer, but I think the best thing to do starting next session (God willing) is that I level them. I'd like to keep them level 2 for a bit longer, it makes them think more about that first bonus feat. Alot of the players are getting into the actual story and happenings rather than worrying about feats and such, and thats all the difference to me.

To be honest I'd wanted to keep them at level 1, but my tongue slipped after the first adventure and they wanted the level badly. To me there is no difference in the amount of fun one can have with a level one or three character, it is based on use.

Which brings me to my dilemma. I plan for the party to encounter a warforged artificer (Simaril, who wears an iron crown of gems, yeah cheesy I know), a warforged monk (Syhpon) once again while trying to gain information about house cannith's "unmarked warforged" (Those not registered or desginated having been created) this will in turn lead them to a illegeal creation forge somewhere near Sharn, a smart player called out it might be under thier noses and in Sharn.

As such after that encounter they will need help from the silver flame church to gain the services of a high inquisitor. to pay for the services of such a revereged NPC they need to be able to figure out the mystery of Dragon's Crown.

Thus they must defeat a CR 8 Sorceror, two CR 4 hench men(warrior, and spellcaster), two CR 3 monsters and two CR 2 cronies scattered about the stones. Three players, fighter, wizard, and rouge (perhaps a druid and a bard if we can get the others to come next time) who must defeat it and it's minions to gain favor with the SF. Honestly they aren't a conventional party and they plan thing sout well, but is this too much? I am planning on adding an Adept from the church accompany them, but it seems they are in way over thier heads. I just wanted a good way to justify them getting some decent equipment, like a wand.

Any suggestions? Should I allow them third level after just a few sessions? Have I done them in?
BlackMoria
07-07-04, 05:38 PM Odd....you want to keep thier levels back (I imagine for pacing or storytelling reasons), yet you expect them to play with the big boys (A CR 8 Sorceror (with or without minions during the encounter) vs three 2nd level characters, if I read your post correctly).

Depends on how you pace and structure the encounters.

They would need skill and a fair amount of good luck to pull it off. But dice are notoriously random - are you prepared for them to execute a poorly thought out plan or to have a unlucky roll or two....'cause against a CR8 Sorceror, there is NO margin for error, either in the planning or execution?

Also consider this.... if I was a player and you threw that stuff against me and I survived.....I am looking for the big payoff. XPs, magic, treasure, etc. Get stingy and I would be so ******. So, how do you intend to control advancement when you are throwing a mountain of XPs of opponents against the party?

Stuff to consider.....
lparks
07-07-04, 06:30 PM It doesn't sound like you are sticking very close to the DMG rules for XP awards (euphemism), but consider the following just for reference. If your CR 8 Sorcerrer and his two CR 4 henchmen are in the same room, that is an Encounter Level of just over 9. Unless you play those NPC's as mental defectives it would take a miracle for a party of level 2 characters to survive that. Also, that encoutner alone would give the PC's enough XP to advance to level 3, assuming that they had just attained level 2 and had 1,000 XP each. Treasure wise, it would generate nearly 5,000 gp worth of loot.

Wish them luck for me.
ChronosCrow
07-07-04, 08:12 PM Originally posted by lparks
It doesn't sound like you are sticking very close to the DMG rules for XP awards (euphemism), but consider the following just for reference. If your CR 8 Sorcerrer and his two CR 4 henchmen are in the same room, that is an Encounter Level of just over 9. Unless you play those NPC's as mental defectives it would take a miracle for a party of level 2 characters to survive that. Also, that encoutner alone would give the PC's enough XP to advance to level 3, assuming that they had just attained level 2 and had 1,000 XP each. Treasure wise, it would generate nearly 5,000 gp worth of loot.

Wish them luck for me.

Um, yeah I agree with lparks here. It looks like you're throwing stuff that them that should probably literally squish the PC's like they were sidewalk gum stuck to the bottom of that Sorcerer's shoes.
Saurenda
07-08-04, 12:17 PM Originally posted by ChronosCrow
Um, yeah I agree with lparks here. It looks like you're throwing stuff that them that should probably literally squish the PC's like they were sidewalk gum stuck to the bottom of that Sorcerer's shoes.

Alright then. I realize I may have wanted to push thier luck a little to far, or way too far. I had intended on rewarding them richly with a collection of wands and a intelligent item. I just didn't want to give the item away.

Cannibal (as all magical items are considered constructs) Staff +2
int 19 wis 19 cha 10
Special Purpose: Destroy/Slay constructs
Special Power to accomplish purpose:Rusting grasp (Touch attack)
Speech, Telethapy
120ft blind/dark vision and hearing
locate object 3/day
20 ranks in bluff
Detect Magic at will

Detect thoughts at will
Lesser Glode of Invunerability
Status

Alignment: Neutral Good

Ego: 24

The staff wouldn't appear to be much at first until it would be sold or used by them in battle for a few levels, and then start to reveal it's power, espically since Warforged alligned with Lord of Blades are constantly after them.

I think I shall take it down a notch and make it a 5 sorc, and two level 3 henchmen for now. I'll just reward them with wands and items then.

Thank you guys for the feedback.
ChronosCrow
07-08-04, 12:29 PM Collection of wands and an intellegent item!? Um, to me it really sounds like you're giving the PC's items that they really don't deserve to have at such low levels, but if you like doing that by all means go ahead. I like to stick to the table table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG where it outlines how much a single PC's net worth should be by the game designer's standards. Anything way above that tends to lend to overpowering high level gaming in which you really need to be low level and ought to start the game off at a higher level. But like I said if you like to do that sort of thing at low level go ahead.

Myself, I like to trickle things out a little at a time to give the PC's a respect and farmiliarity for their items and what they, as PC's, can do. My current game started at level 3 and it's going to take 5 game sessions to level to 4th and so far the only magic item the party has found is a +1 longsword and by luck a final messenger for warforged.
ENHenry
07-08-04, 02:07 PM If it were me, I would not award such to the party, because not even an 8th level sorcerer would by the book have his hands on such a powerful item. I would award them with smaller gains as per chronoscow's example, from the "Minor" magics column of the magic items tables, or variations thereof.

With regards to the levelling, the challenges you listed would be a hard press for even a party of 3rd levels, frankly. I would play that with care, unless your goal is to teach the party that there are bigger fish out there than they can handle, and give them an escape route.

Your mileage will vary of course, but if you're asking for advice, I'm giving. :)
Saurenda
07-09-04, 05:44 AM Thank you guys. GM guide 3.5 my first Dm guide is coming today in the mail, since I picked up Eberron shadows of the last war and 113 of dungeon today I think I'll stick to that for now, before I throw anything like that at the pcs. As for not handing them stuff undeservingly I got carried away.

Upon leveling to three I will allow the characters to use actions points. I restricted them from having it at first and second level until they pushed themselves above the norm.

Thanks guys.
ChronosCrow
07-09-04, 12:09 PM Originally posted by Saurenda
Upon leveling to three I will allow the characters to use actions points. I restricted them from having it at first and second level until they pushed themselves above the norm.

Thanks guys.

I'm very glad that you took the time to see where most of us were coming from. I'd advise, like you said you were going to, to run from the pre-made adventure to try and get a feel for what PC's deserve. Shadows is meant for 2nd level PC's so if they level to 3rd only boost the adventure ever so slightly, not too much and that goes especially for magical items.

Congrats on the new DM 3.5 book, go and take a look to that page I referenced earlier and take a look at what I mean about net worth per PC per level.

Your idea to keep them from using action points till 3rd was a good idea. They'll greatly appreciate action points after that I think.
dascribe
07-09-04, 01:02 PM Although I completely agree with previous comments about balance and how a item and encounter like above could throw off a game in nothing flat, I must admit, however, that a storyteller cannot let him/herself be cowed by the rules. As a good DM, you should be aware of the imbalance you are creating as well as how players will abuse the imbalance, but such heightened stakes can make for amazing stories. Powerful weapons in the wrong hands(i.e. low-level PCs) can make for entertaining gaming. If you don't feel comfortable with the challenge then don't tempt it, but (again) don't allow a fun gaming opportunity to pass you by. I admit I don't think I am a good enough DM to keep hold of said imbalanced game, but the tension built within imbalanced games is something that should be considered.
lparks
07-09-04, 02:19 PM ...a storyteller cannot let him/herself be cowed by the rules.As one of the primary rule-mongers in this thread I'd like to second dascribe on that. Just know which rules you are breaking and why when you are designing the scenario.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saurenda 07-07-04, 04:57 PM	It may sound a little strange but after three sessions my players are still level 2, despite the amount of things they have seen and accomplished in Breland. I wanted to hold it off for a little while longer, but I think the best thing to do starting next session (God willing) is that I level them. I'd like to keep them level 2 for a bit longer, it makes them think more about that first bonus feat. Alot of the players are getting into the actual story and happenings rather than worrying about feats and such, and thats all the difference to me. To be honest I'd wanted to keep them at level 1, but my tongue slipped after the first adventure and they wanted the level badly. To me there is no difference in the amount of fun one can have with a level one or three character, it is based on use. Which brings me to my dilemma. I plan for the party to encounter a warforged artificer (Simaril, who wears an iron crown of gems, yeah cheesy I know), a warforged monk (Syhpon) once again while trying to gain information about house cannith's "unmarked warforged" (Those not registered or desginated having been created) this will in turn lead them to a illegeal creation forge somewhere near Sharn, a smart player called out it might be under thier noses and in Sharn. As such after that encounter they will need help from the silver flame church to gain the services of a high inquisitor. to pay for the services of such a revereged NPC they need to be able to figure out the mystery of Dragon's Crown. Thus they must defeat a CR 8 Sorceror, two CR 4 hench men(warrior, and spellcaster), two CR 3 monsters and two CR 2 cronies scattered about the stones. Three players, fighter, wizard, and rouge (perhaps a druid and a bard if we can get the others to come next time) who must defeat it and it's minions to gain favor with the SF. Honestly they aren't a conventional party and they plan thing sout well, but is this too much? I am planning on adding an Adept from the church accompany them, but it seems they are in way over thier heads. I just wanted a good way to justify them getting some decent equipment, like a wand. Any suggestions? Should I allow them third level after just a few sessions? Have I done them in?
BlackMoria 07-07-04, 05:38 PM	Odd....you want to keep thier levels back (I imagine for pacing or storytelling reasons), yet you expect them to play with the big boys (A CR 8 Sorceror (with or without minions during the encounter) vs three 2nd level characters, if I read your post correctly). Depends on how you pace and structure the encounters. They would need skill and a fair amount of good luck to pull it off. But dice are notoriously random - are you prepared for them to execute a poorly thought out plan or to have a unlucky roll or two....'cause against a CR8 Sorceror, there is NO margin for error, either in the planning or execution? Also consider this.... if I was a player and you threw that stuff against me and I survived.....I am looking for the big payoff. XPs, magic, treasure, etc. Get stingy and I would be so ******. So, how do you intend to control advancement when you are throwing a mountain of XPs of opponents against the party? Stuff to consider.....
lparks 07-07-04, 06:30 PM	It doesn't sound like you are sticking very close to the DMG rules for XP awards (euphemism), but consider the following just for reference. If your CR 8 Sorcerrer and his two CR 4 henchmen are in the same room, that is an Encounter Level of just over 9. Unless you play those NPC's as mental defectives it would take a miracle for a party of level 2 characters to survive that. Also, that encoutner alone would give the PC's enough XP to advance to level 3, assuming that they had just attained level 2 and had 1,000 XP each. Treasure wise, it would generate nearly 5,000 gp worth of loot. Wish them luck for me.
ChronosCrow 07-07-04, 08:12 PM	Originally posted by lparks It doesn't sound like you are sticking very close to the DMG rules for XP awards (euphemism), but consider the following just for reference. If your CR 8 Sorcerrer and his two CR 4 henchmen are in the same room, that is an Encounter Level of just over 9. Unless you play those NPC's as mental defectives it would take a miracle for a party of level 2 characters to survive that. Also, that encoutner alone would give the PC's enough XP to advance to level 3, assuming that they had just attained level 2 and had 1,000 XP each. Treasure wise, it would generate nearly 5,000 gp worth of loot. Wish them luck for me. Um, yeah I agree with lparks here. It looks like you're throwing stuff that them that should probably literally squish the PC's like they were sidewalk gum stuck to the bottom of that Sorcerer's shoes.
Saurenda 07-08-04, 12:17 PM	Originally posted by ChronosCrow Um, yeah I agree with lparks here. It looks like you're throwing stuff that them that should probably literally squish the PC's like they were sidewalk gum stuck to the bottom of that Sorcerer's shoes. Alright then. I realize I may have wanted to push thier luck a little to far, or way too far. I had intended on rewarding them richly with a collection of wands and a intelligent item. I just didn't want to give the item away. Cannibal (as all magical items are considered constructs) Staff +2 int 19 wis 19 cha 10 Special Purpose: Destroy/Slay constructs Special Power to accomplish purpose:Rusting grasp (Touch attack) Speech, Telethapy 120ft blind/dark vision and hearing locate object 3/day 20 ranks in bluff Detect Magic at will Detect thoughts at will Lesser Glode of Invunerability Status Alignment: Neutral Good Ego: 24 The staff wouldn't appear to be much at first until it would be sold or used by them in battle for a few levels, and then start to reveal it's power, espically since Warforged alligned with Lord of Blades are constantly after them. I think I shall take it down a notch and make it a 5 sorc, and two level 3 henchmen for now. I'll just reward them with wands and items then. Thank you guys for the feedback.
ChronosCrow 07-08-04, 12:29 PM	Collection of wands and an intellegent item!? Um, to me it really sounds like you're giving the PC's items that they really don't deserve to have at such low levels, but if you like doing that by all means go ahead. I like to stick to the table table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG where it outlines how much a single PC's net worth should be by the game designer's standards. Anything way above that tends to lend to overpowering high level gaming in which you really need to be low level and ought to start the game off at a higher level. But like I said if you like to do that sort of thing at low level go ahead. Myself, I like to trickle things out a little at a time to give the PC's a respect and farmiliarity for their items and what they, as PC's, can do. My current game started at level 3 and it's going to take 5 game sessions to level to 4th and so far the only magic item the party has found is a +1 longsword and by luck a final messenger for warforged.
ENHenry 07-08-04, 02:07 PM	If it were me, I would not award such to the party, because not even an 8th level sorcerer would by the book have his hands on such a powerful item. I would award them with smaller gains as per chronoscow's example, from the "Minor" magics column of the magic items tables, or variations thereof. With regards to the levelling, the challenges you listed would be a hard press for even a party of 3rd levels, frankly. I would play that with care, unless your goal is to teach the party that there are bigger fish out there than they can handle, and give them an escape route. Your mileage will vary of course, but if you're asking for advice, I'm giving. :)
Saurenda 07-09-04, 05:44 AM	Thank you guys. GM guide 3.5 my first Dm guide is coming today in the mail, since I picked up Eberron shadows of the last war and 113 of dungeon today I think I'll stick to that for now, before I throw anything like that at the pcs. As for not handing them stuff undeservingly I got carried away. Upon leveling to three I will allow the characters to use actions points. I restricted them from having it at first and second level until they pushed themselves above the norm. Thanks guys.
ChronosCrow 07-09-04, 12:09 PM	Originally posted by Saurenda Upon leveling to three I will allow the characters to use actions points. I restricted them from having it at first and second level until they pushed themselves above the norm. Thanks guys. I'm very glad that you took the time to see where most of us were coming from. I'd advise, like you said you were going to, to run from the pre-made adventure to try and get a feel for what PC's deserve. Shadows is meant for 2nd level PC's so if they level to 3rd only boost the adventure ever so slightly, not too much and that goes especially for magical items. Congrats on the new DM 3.5 book, go and take a look to that page I referenced earlier and take a look at what I mean about net worth per PC per level. Your idea to keep them from using action points till 3rd was a good idea. They'll greatly appreciate action points after that I think.
dascribe 07-09-04, 01:02 PM	Although I completely agree with previous comments about balance and how a item and encounter like above could throw off a game in nothing flat, I must admit, however, that a storyteller cannot let him/herself be cowed by the rules. As a good DM, you should be aware of the imbalance you are creating as well as how players will abuse the imbalance, but such heightened stakes can make for amazing stories. Powerful weapons in the wrong hands(i.e. low-level PCs) can make for entertaining gaming. If you don't feel comfortable with the challenge then don't tempt it, but (again) don't allow a fun gaming opportunity to pass you by. I admit I don't think I am a good enough DM to keep hold of said imbalanced game, but the tension built within imbalanced games is something that should be considered.
lparks 07-09-04, 02:19 PM	...a storyteller cannot let him/herself be cowed by the rules.As one of the primary rule-mongers in this thread I'd like to second dascribe on that. Just know which rules you are breaking and why when you are designing the scenario.