Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Galen_Michael 04-16-05, 09:59 PM	I am disappointed in Races of Eberron. Not in the content, mind you - I haven't even read through the book yet. I am disappointed in the book itself, however. Namely: 1) The font size is well above the standard font size for WotC hardcovers. This means less content, despite the same price as other WotC books with comparable page totals (and prices). 2) The pages are thinner and less glossy than other WoTC books, almost like printer paper or even newsprint. Weird. 3) The cover still bugs me, but I knew that was coming. Also bothers me that we didn't get a two-page spread by Wayne Reynolds at the front of the book. But mostly 1 and 2 bug me. Why did Races of Eberron get the shaft on quantity of content and quality of production? [/rant] Galen
zerotkatama 04-16-05, 10:17 PM	There is that Two page spread. It's right after the title page.
PsiRogue 04-16-05, 10:20 PM	Why did Races of Eberron get the shaft on quantity of content and quality of production? If you have not read the book, how can you vouch for the quantity of content based solely on font size?
Galen_Michael 04-16-05, 11:21 PM	If you have not read the book, how can you vouch for the quantity of content based solely on font size? Because there simply isn't as much(?) Quality-wise I cannot judge (and I've heard it's quite good), but quantitiy-wise I am certain there is less. Galen
Edymnion 04-17-05, 12:18 AM	Actually, I'm a little dissapointed with it content wise. For months we've been told how much stuff was going to be in here. And now that its out, I don't *REALLY* see much more in here than we ourselves have worked up on the boards, and a few logical extensions of whats already there (like changlings that are basically extroverts, introverts, and neutrals). Don't get me wrong, its got some nice stuff in it, and I'm sure newer players will appreciate it, but as someone thats been on the boards almost since the beginning, I've found RoE to be pretty much "take it or leave it". Its not BAD by any stretch of the imagination, but its not Draconomicon "OMG! I gotta have this!!!111one!" either. Good stuff, but not really much to it (other than the PrC) that we either haven't figured out for ourselves here on the boards, or that wasn't basically pidgeonholing characters. But, its a book about generic members of each race, so I suppose its only natural the entire book is about stereotypes. Bottom line, I bought this because it was Eberron, and I want to support the line. If that hadn't been the case, I would not have bought Races of Eberron, I just wasn't that impressed with it. Lik I said, I don't know, maybe its just that its a Races of book and not an Eberron specific book, but it tends to read like it was written for people that don't have a CLUE what the races are about. Which is, I'm sure, the target audiences for these kinds of books. City of Towers it ain't though.
deClench 04-17-05, 02:28 AM	OK, I have to comment because I happen to really like the RoE. I don't much care how glossy the pages are. I am merely interested in the content (captivating art included) and I think that this book was a success. Remembering that it is a "Races of..." book, it's IMO the best one to date. Compared to the ~2 page blurbs in the ECS, this was a lot of material. Maybe if they decide to devote an entire book to a single race they can exhaustively explore the possibilities. :) Would I like to see more material on all of the races? Absolutely! Is it all going to fit into one book? I hope not. :) While elves and dwarves et al have had their day for decades in the pages of something D&D, this was a good first shot for the 4 newbies from Eberron. It wasn't a vehicle for the druid traditions or Sarlona (though I'll put my vote in here for that one) or the Lords of Dust (I'm stacking the deck here with my wishlist) or anything else for that matter except for those races (with brief mentions of the other races). Each of those items and more though could be found somewhere in the book. At least they left you all wanting more rather than not. As for being all on the boards already and stuff that we can figure out ourselves -- I feel I can safely say that 1) the majority of D&D players don't participate on the boards (whether from desire or ability) and that 2) the boards are not the canon. In parting I'll say that while I really liked the Draconomicon a lot, my RoE will both see the light of day and be used in-game more often.
PsiRogue 04-17-05, 09:30 AM	Because there simply isn't as much(?) Quality-wise I cannot judge (and I've heard it's quite good), but quantitiy-wise I am certain there is less. Galen Oops... Forget I wrote that, I mixed the two words up again (damn my bad English).
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-17-05, 09:59 AM	I think the majority of the Races of Eberron content is top notch and well worth it, but there is one section that I am dissapointed with and thats the Other Races chapter. I haven't read through it all yet, but the section I have read (other than the Inspired section) hasn't revealed anything new. I was hoping for Dragonshard-esque detail, but instead we have a couple of sample NPCs and the basics of the racial culture. There was nothing in the Half-Orc or Half-Elf sections, for example, that hasn't been mentioned in the ECS.
Jagermeister 04-17-05, 01:17 PM	I am disappointed in Races of Eberron. Not in the content, mind you - I haven't even read through the book yet. I am disappointed in the book itself, however. Namely: 1) The font size is well above the standard font size for WotC hardcovers. This means less content, despite the same price as other WotC books with comparable page totals (and prices). 2) The pages are thinner and less glossy than other WoTC books, almost like printer paper or even newsprint. Weird. 3) The cover still bugs me, but I knew that was coming. Also bothers me that we didn't get a two-page spread by Wayne Reynolds at the front of the book. But mostly 1 and 2 bug me. Why did Races of Eberron get the shaft on quantity of content and quality of production? [/rant] Galen 1) Yeah, I noticed that as well. 2) This also bothered me. The pages have already wrinkled up a bit near the binding, and I've had the book but only two days. 3) More than the cover, I wish that the chapter openings would have remained as they are in other "Eberron" books; with the comic book style and layout. Like someone else stated, there is a WAR two page spread at the beginning though. 4) As for content, I wish more had been written about the standard PHB races, and their differences in Eberron. Not nearly enough material for Dwarves, Gnomes, Valenar/Aereni Elves, Humans, Khoravar, etc. All of these interesting races get minimal coverage, but suddenly Drow get book space and an article in Dungeon? Blah. I think this might have had something to do with the video game, but I guess I'll have to wait and see on that one.
greatfrito 04-17-05, 01:49 PM	All of these interesting races get minimal coverage, but suddenly Drow get book space and an article in Dungeon? Blah. I cannot more heartily agree with your sentiments, sir. I don't understand what the deal is with adding so much Drow material - WHY WIZARDS, WHY!?!?! Mayhaps if people would stop showing interest in the damnded race, they'd stop giving it more support than it is due in places where it needs almost no mention. Honestly, I see no appeal for playing a Drow in eberron, except perhaps as the strange exotic warrior stolen from his homeland and trained as an assassin or something (Hehe... our players may see said character some day, but did he need any more material than what was in the MM and the ECS? Nope, not a bit). Why play a run-o-the-mill ol' Drow (c'mon, they're not that different from FR drow), when you could play a swashbuckling pirate Half-Elf, or a druidic sage half-orc, or a kalashtar soulknife or telepath, or ANY warforged, shifter, or changeling? To me, it seems that drow have been included anywhere in Eberron at all because -everything- core was included in some fashion, but their position is being expanded because of the fanboy/girl base that can easily be exploited for comercial gain. Uh... woo! Rant over! Game on Garth!
Sarlax 04-17-05, 01:58 PM	I cannot more heartily agree with your sentiments, sir. I don't understand what the deal is with adding so much Drow material - WHY WIZARDS, WHY!?!?! Because people pay to get it. If three pages on the drow gets another 1000 people into Eberron, it's worth it.
Mula 04-17-05, 02:04 PM	I think the majority of the Races of Eberron content is top notch and well worth it, but there is one section that I am dissapointed with and thats the Other Races chapter. I haven't read through it all yet, but the section I have read (other than the Inspired section) hasn't revealed anything new. I was hoping for Dragonshard-esque detail, but instead we have a couple of sample NPCs and the basics of the racial culture. There was nothing in the Half-Orc or Half-Elf sections, for example, that hasn't been mentioned in the ECS. Remember, Races of Eberron is a Races of -book, not an actual Eberron line supplement like City of Towers. Races of Eberron is intended to give information about the new races presented in ECS. There's a reason why RoE doesn't have an Eberron style cover.
Sarlax 04-17-05, 02:09 PM	1) The font size is well above the standard font size for WotC hardcovers. This means less content, despite the same price as other WotC books with comparable page totals (and prices). Indeed. I picked up Lords of Madness the same day (a freaking excellent book, by the way). Information per page is much higher. 2) The pages are thinner and less glossy than other WoTC books, almost like printer paper or even newsprint. Weird. This is true as well. It's still good quality, but not the usual "Awesome" quality that Wizards books typically have. I wouldn't mind this slight downgrade if it were matched with an increase in content, art, page count, etc. But it isn't. 3) The cover still bugs me, but I knew that was coming. Also bothers me that we didn't get a two-page spread by Wayne Reynolds at the front of the book. I was never bothered by the cover before. But I am now. It was a horrible idea to include some of City of Towers with the book. Well, I'll revise that. It's a good idea that was terribly implemented. Like the Eberron soundtrack, this little booklet should have been stuck simply on the middle of the back cover's interior. Instead, it's wedged into the spine at the very end. It has to be ripped out along with the Wizards feedback form. After you do rip it out, there's a big gap. Additionally, the inclusion of that little booklet warped the first and last twenty pages in my book, probably from the way the books lay on top of each other during shipping. Every copy at my local store was like this. As was every copy I found at other stores.
ekomega 04-17-05, 04:17 PM	There's two ways that I look at this. 1) Compare it to Races of Destiny. I think Races of Eberron is 1000x better than that crappy book. 2) Compare it to Sharn: City of Towers. RoE doesn't have nearly the quantity, or quality, of information that S:CoT had. It's in the middle, which is okay, but it could've been better. I love the stuff that's in it, but there could've been more. Although some of the fluff (like for Kalashtar) was desperately needed since there wasn't too much to begin with. I am slightly confused by their logic in releasing it as a "Races" book. On one hand, they want everyone to be able to pick it up and not feel it's only for Eberron. On the other hand, they are trying to sell Eberron like crazy to everyone. I feel that if this book was higher quality and an Eberron book, it likely would've been more successful than it will be now. I'm not in their marketing department, I don't know. But based on the quality of their proofreader and some of their editors (judged from the amount of errata, if nothing else) I can't honestly say I have a great opinion of some of their staff. I don't know if the marketing person made a good decision, but pleasing their fans who buy the books should've been the first decision. There are plenty of "in the middle" WoTC products, and I was hoping this wouldn't be one of them.
DBlizzard 04-17-05, 05:12 PM	Instead, it's wedged into the spine at the very end. It has to be ripped out along with the Wizards feedback form. After you do rip it out, there's a big gap. Mine was attached with that sticky stuff and easily peeled off the paper to which it was attached. I had no problems with it.
Korhal_IV 04-17-05, 05:36 PM	Mine was attached with that sticky stuff and easily peeled off the paper to which it was attached. I had no problems with it. Well, lucky you. Mine's like Sarlax's, except there doesn't appear to be any damage and I haven't yet tried hard to remove it. The CoT excerpt is particularly annoying because the book came out earlier and I bought it already. I'm with Ekomega on RoE: Not as horrible as the other Races of... books, not as great as Sharn. I did see quite a few interesting little plot hooks in RoE, and I liked the new information. Time will tell how much I pull out of it. On a sidenote, the reforged illustration is horrific. I'm in the middle of trying to laud Eberron to skeptics, and the guy with the book opens to that page. Pssh. Game over.
Puppy 04-17-05, 10:15 PM	2) The pages are thinner and less glossy than other WoTC books, almost like printer paper or even newsprint. Weird. What struck me when I bought the book in Newcastle, England, was how unusually cheap it was. The shop had Races of the Wild in the shelves for £18 (or something like that, I didn't look too hard and I left the damn thing where it was), while Races of Eberron set me back only £14. Accessory books like this one usually goes for around £18 or £19 in this shop. This is just a thought, but is it possible that WotC used a slightly less quality in the book itself too leave the shops with higher profit margins, and therefore cheaper retail price? Could it be a hidden marketing ploy by WotC to gain more followers to Eberron? If it was, they've already partly succeeded in my mind, as one of my players already bought the book due to it's price. (This is btw, as far as I know, the only D&D book he owns.)
Edymnion 04-17-05, 11:13 PM	If three pages on the drow gets another 1000 people into Eberron, it's worth it.Personally, thats a thousand more people in the setting that think its okay to play a Drow like it was any other PHB core race. I mean, at the very least they could have done a copy/paste of the racial dragonshards into the book. Just some of the little things about the book tend to rub me the wrong way though. Example: I have a character in a Faerun game that would be much more at home in Eberron, as it's rather flashy (for those that have been around a while, I'm talking about Amythest, my Storm Sorceress). Obviously, the best thing for the port would be to change her from Human to Half-Elf, and make her part of House Lylander to get the Mark of Storms. Something I've been half-thinking about for months. So, I read up on the Half-Elf entry in Races of Eberron, expecting something like the Dragonshard article, only better. Not only was I sorely dissappointed in that reguard (I swear, the dragonshard for the half-elves have more fluff AND more crunch than the RoE entry), but there was one little thing towards the end that just felt like a smack in the face. It listed some feats that would be good to take, like Alertness and Negotiator, etc. Then it said something along the lines of "and the Lesser Mark (Storms) feat would be good as well, so you can pilot all those airships". Wait, WHAT?!? They're essentially telling new players that they should be taking something as roleplay heavy as a Dragonmark, just so they can pilot airships (which really isn't something thats going to happen very often, if at all). Just completely ignore the flavor of the setting and the dragonmarked houses, and suggest it so you can pilot airships? You know, I'm very glad that this book was given the Races of cover. Because if it had been a part of the Eberron line with this kind of rulesmongering in it, I would have been very upset. As is, I can just pass it off as being more examples of WotC's policy of making needless new rules without any reguard as to how they work with anything else. The Eberron line at least has put more emphasis on the flavor and "why" of what it presents, it doesn't just push crunch out the door and expect somebody to work it into a game as best they can. Not all of the book was this way, of course. But there is definately enough of it sprinkled in there to bring it down to being a mediocre book, IMO.
DBlizzard 04-18-05, 01:13 AM	Well, lucky you. Mine's like Sarlax's, except there doesn't appear to be any damage and I haven't yet tried hard to remove it. The CoT excerpt is particularly annoying because the book came out earlier and I bought it already. Yeah, I had it earlier, but am passing it out to my other players to give them a feel for the world (and to, hopefully, get them interested in reading the book). I wonder why there are two versions out there? Maybe some have had the "sticky stuff" harden. I was worried about removing it (not realizing how it was attached), but while trying, it just peeled away.
Save-vs-DM 04-18-05, 04:28 AM	It's so disheartening when a book you've been waiting months and months for doesn't meet your expectations... I feel sort of cheated (even though it was a gift). Now I actually have to go through and point out to my players what is right and what is "not so Eberron." Though I do have my unofficial Eberron handbook: I've printed out all the dragonshards and hole punch them, and keep them in a binder. This is my most treasured book, and when I finally have enough that I really like I'm going to put them all together or maybe retype them into chapters and go to Kinkos and have it bound. Did anyone else find the take on warforged a bit different than what you imagined? I'm not sure I totally like how they presented them, but I think this might be a personal opinion more than anything else. On the plus side I did like the changeling entry and the shifter entry. The information on Kalashtar was very welcome, then again, any new information on my favorite race is always welcome! It was nice to see some new prestige classes. I also think that overall, the layout was pretty good. Do I feel cheated for buying (well, being gifted) the book? No? Would I have bought it if I wasn't a big Eberron book? Maybe. Will I use it, or at least part of it? Totally. As for the drow thing...I totally skipped that part. I sort of read a bit. I was also dissapointed in the half-elf entry, Edy. I really, really loved the Khoravar dragonshard (Part II! I want PartII!!!!!) and this seemed a little less...good. The new feats were good though. Though now I have to go through my home brew stuff and what's in the book and decide which to use. Cheers, Save vs DM
The Livewire 04-18-05, 06:59 AM	I'd have liked a Draconomicon sized book myself. :-) But count me in from curious bystander to actively running an Eberron campaign in two weeks :-)
Altaris 04-18-05, 11:45 AM	You know, I've also been around the boards (to one degree or another) since Eberron came out. I must say, that with the amount of creative genius and (sometimes) cooeprative discussions that goes on here, I would be at a loss with this board. From crunch to fluff, my peers have put many things into perspective (sometimes in line with my own, sometimes not.) This website has made my own game that much better, for me as a DM and for my players. You know you run a good game when people not in your game talk about it, and give you compliments on it.
Talon Blackhart 04-18-05, 06:20 PM	I will admit that I have not purchased RoE. And in all likelyhood, I probably won't. I made that decision about the time I found out that there were 4 chapters on the new races and only 1 chapter for all of the other races. I was hoping for a lot of information on how the "traditional" D&D races fit into Eberron, along with the information about the new races. The only thing that has me thinking about picking up the book is the collection of feats and prestige classes. I have to spend a bit of time at my FLGS looking those sections over a bit more, before I decide, however. Well, the feats and prestiges, and helping to support the world of Eberron.
greatfrito 04-18-05, 10:17 PM	Honestly, most of the prestige classes aren't that exciting (just got my copy, and spent the WHOLE day reading through it), nor are many of the feats. Many of the substitution levels are okay at best, but not too exciting. The crunchy stuff that I was most interested in - Soulknife stuff mostly - is just... a let down. Now, after mentioning that, I liked each chapter on races (I've read all of Warforged, all of Kalashtar, and most of Changeling and Shifter), though the added shifter traits are often fairly odd (Flying? Whuh?), as I perfer the more subtle things (and abilities that would function with armor on). The section on the various races is not as good as Dragonshards, yes, but I think it might work as a good overview for new players - "Read this chapter, Ignore the damnded Drow, and Understand some of the other cultures" - so long as they read any and all Dragonshards that pertain to their character specifically. *shrugs* Just seems like a good bet. My biggest beef so far? What are the 66 Kalashtar lines and name-endings? I -wants- them!
Orion Polaris 04-18-05, 11:17 PM	Ick, I was really looking forward to getting this book... All of your complaints are making me think twice about buying it. Is it truly THAT bad?
stembolt 04-19-05, 12:41 AM	It listed some feats that would be good to take, like Alertness and Negotiator, etc. Then it said something along the lines of "and the Lesser Mark (Storms) feat would be good as well, so you can pilot all those airships". Wait, WHAT?!? They're essentially telling new players that they should be taking something as roleplay heavy as a Dragonmark, just so they can pilot airships (which really isn't something thats going to happen very often, if at all). So what you’re telling me is that the mark of storms is not the feat used to fly airships? Or is it something that is too cool for newbies to use? (For Gods sake newbie don’t take “Children of Winter” feat! That’s one of the good ones.) For the Eberron snobs who haven’t gotten the idea through their heads yet, airships are as much a part of the game as the DM wants them to be. And for players who have competent capable DMs one of their options is to someday own an airship.
Bluebrush 04-19-05, 05:43 AM	(The following is written by someone who doesn't yet own the book) I think the point is that, judging by the line quoted, it's just presented as something any old elf can take, when in fact it's basically entwined with their character history. Also it implies there's loads and loads of airships out there, when there's only supposed to be a few in "Core" Eberron. Maybe it works for a game where the DM has changed those aspects of the setting, but not for the game as presented. A better line might have been something like "If you want a character who can pilot the elemental-powered galleons and airships, consider creating a character who can trace their linage back to house Lyandar so you can take the mark of storms feat." That or leaving it out, since in my skim through the book at my FLGS I saw no airship content.
JohnnyONeal 04-19-05, 10:17 AM	I have to say I'm a little surprised to see this negative sentiment. I've been very happy with Races of Eberron, and I feel like I'm a pretty huge Eberron snob. On the other hand, Keith Baker sets the bar pretty high for Eberron content. His message board posts and Dragonshards articles are better than most published RPG content. I guess I can understand being a little annoyed when the content you pay for is not significantly better for the content you get for free. But that's just proof that the free content is so excellent. Races of Eberron is still a very good D&D release. Races of Eberron is not written entirely by Keith Baker, and the parts he didn't write were not edited by him. We're all big Hellcow fans here, and we're very sensitive to Eberron content that breaks from Keith's vision of the world. But Eberron is a shared world, as he constantly reminds us. That means more creativity and collaboration, ultimately, but it also means "continuity gaps" and sometimes inconsistent content. I can trace everything I didn't like in RoE to content that I know Keith didn't write. But I also loved a lot of the content he didn't write. It's something of a grab bag, and I'm willing to deal with that. What did I like? I enjoyed the fluff on all four races, though the large warforged section was actually the least interesting to me. Between the roleplaying tips, the "Day in the Life" sections and the race histories, I now have many more character ideas for those races than I'll ever manage to create as NPCs. I loved the kalashtar and Inspired content (which Keith wrote). I liked some of the Other Races info, though that chapter definitely plays second fiddle to the Dragonshards articles. The new feats really helped define shifters and changelings, the racial substitution levels had a couple of gems, and the new spells and powers were very flavorful. I like the atavist, Cabinet trickster, moonspeaker, quori nightmare, and spellcarved soldier prestige classes (and the background information for each). My players are already clamoring to use a lot of content from the book. As for the Mark of Storms thing, I don't think that was out of line. It is one of the most mechanically attractive things about playing a half-elf, and a serious consideration for any party that wants to be able to own or commandeer an airship. A fair amount of people with the Mark of Storm have broken their affiliation with the house to be airship privateers, so it's a rare case where the effects of the dragonmark may trump the cultural/historical aspects of being in the house. Besides, it's just one sentence!
lugnut71 04-19-05, 11:36 AM	I also find it to be an excellent book. The best of the races series possibly but stone sets the bar pretty high so I'm not certain of that. I think the problem is that a lot of you are going in expecting something it isn't. Much like many of the people who bought Oriental Adventures who expected Kara-tur you bought this expecting information on the old races in Eberron. It was never presented as being informative on those (although some information is of course given), it was always presented as information on the new four. Drow I can also explain. Somewhere along the way a whole lot of people decided that they like anything Drow. TSR and now Wizards saw that Drow sold books. So no matter what despite my opinion on them they are going to be included in a lot of different things because people by books with them in it. We also have to relize that we aren't the majority on the boards here. A lot of information we get for free by checking it out other people are not accessing. So including this stuff in the books certainly helps the majority.
deClench 04-19-05, 01:06 PM	Again, I like it. Most of my interest was with the Shifter and Kalashtar sections. I think they did a great job with the Shifters. Many new abilties and feats. The Moonspeaker PrC is awesome (esp when combined with the Shifter Druid substitution levels); this will be my next character! The Kalashtar were also done well. I wasn't crazy about all the Kalashtar feats, but there are quite a few and many are good. The 2 Kalashtar PrC's are very flavorful and the Nightmare will likely become a villain of mine. The fluff was fulfilling in giving background/origin material. Re 66 names: well 3 or 4 were given in the flavor text, so for the remainder...start a thread and make them up on your own. :) Is that something that really needs to be made explicit in a book? I haven't fully absorbed the sections on Warforged and Changelings yet, but am eager to do so. While IMO some of the Warforged feats are questionable, they seem to fit the feel of the race that they are going for. Warforged should definately have the option for a bite attack. :D
Edymnion 04-19-05, 01:32 PM	Ick, I was really looking forward to getting this book... All of your complaints are making me think twice about buying it. Is it truly THAT bad?No, its a good middle of the road mediocre book. Its not bad like Races of Destiny by any stretch, but it doesn't have much that would push it into the Good catagory either. And what there is is dragged down by errors and decidedly non-Eberron-ish content elsewhere. Basically, many of us expected a book of Dragonshard quality material, and we only got run of the mill "Acceptable enough that people don't complain" material. Bottom line, its a Races of X book, not an Eberron book, and it shows. Don't buy this one blindly, sit down and read it first and see if its got anything you can use. If there isn't anything you can use, then don't buy it. It is by no means the window into the races that we were expecting. It virtually ignores all of the other races but the freaking Drow (which got 2-3 times as much page space as some of the other default races), the information on the Warforged is rather iffy at best (which is dissappointing). Shifters are portrayed as being much more bestial than I had pictured them too. Overall, its a "Take it, or leave it" book. Its going to be useful to some, worthless to others, and just "eh" to everybody in between. Its good for a Races book, but pretty poor as an Eberron book.
Edymnion 04-23-05, 11:39 PM	:bump:
Gurv 04-23-05, 11:51 PM	I like Races of Eberron. The new races desperately needed more fluff and crunch, and I think each got a little of both. The details on how warforged think and on shifter culture are things I think were needed. The increase in changeling and shifter feats will also have a large impact on games. Information on Dal Quor, the Inspired, and the Dreaming Dark alone is, by far, worth the cover price. The fact that the kalashtar had almost no mechanical purpose has been fixed: they are now flavorful AND useful. I'm not a big fan of drow, but everything presented in RoE serves to distance them from FR drow in my mind, which is entirely a good thing. IMO, a game run without Races of Eberron will seem flat and lacking once the material has been fully absorbed into our understanding of the world.
Edymnion 04-24-05, 12:10 AM	It does fill holes left by the ECS, which is good for new players. But really, how many holes in the races did we see in the ECS that we didn't fill ourselves? And to skate on thin ice a bit, the only good examples of fully fleshed out Warforged we have are from Keith's novel, and Pierce most definately did not speak or act ANYTHING like what RoE portrays. Thinking in terms of battle yes, but not really any of the rest of it. Kalashtar were great, the Shifters were very good, the Changlings were okay, but the Warforged entry was lacking, IMO.
ekomega 04-24-05, 12:29 AM	Nobody in my game who considered a warforged ever thought of a personality like they described. Currently there is a Warforged Ranger who is a philosopher contemplating the meaning of everything. To the player who made that character, the fact that warforged were new, inexperienced, and had a lot to learn, made him think of a character who wanted to enjoy and test all those new things. Everyone in my group thought "hm... warforged.. he could try all kinds of new things and be really interesting..." The RoE fluff makes it seem like warforged are closed minded and stuck doing the same things, like robots. I never saw warforged doing the same thing over and over again for fun. Nobody with a brain, even if they are man-made, wants to sit and do repetitive crap all day. That's not fun. At one point, warforged are creative, playing war games, and experiencing emotions. Two pages later they are doing repetitive, unending hobbies to pass the time. "Many warforged do the tasks given to them...before a battle:...sharpening weapons, cleaning accouterments... Such tasks can hold endless fulfillment for a warforged when she has nothing else to do." So which is it? The repetitive nonsense stuck with me a lot more than the first feelings stuff. We make lots of robot jokes, and my default warforged voice is flat and robotic, but I never considered them to be like RoE says. Also, anyone notice on page 13 that warforged are only able to spend 8 hours a day to create or repair objects? It specifically states that crafting times in the PHB cannot be decreased for warforged. So no more warforged slave labor.
Meta_FR_DM 04-24-05, 02:42 AM	I enjoyed the book a great deal myself. I found the font size a refreshing change for my eyes, the paper quality was fine, the spine was in excellent shape and the book itself showed very little body-warp due to book stacking during storage and shipment. The contents were arranged logically and were very specific. As a Forgotten Realms DM who makes liberal use of non-Realms material for my campaign, I found the layout and content to be perfectly suited to my needs. Specifically, the book provided just the right kind and amount of racial information (such as background history, locations where found, goals and behavior) for Eberron’s Races, which allowed me to do two things; (1) Answer the many enthusiastic questions from my players about Eberron and its races (especially about the Warforged) and (2) determine which parts of the book I’ll be using in my campaign and how I’ll go about introducing it into the Forgotten Realms setting. I was especially impressed by the information for players on how to roleplay their Eberron characters. This information is just as useful for Dungeon Masters running NPCs. Now that I think about it I’m surprised I didn’t spend much time looking at the crunch (rules on spells, equipment, feats, prestige classes). Apparently the racial information was far more interesting. This last is something I believe makes Races of Eberron a very high quality book and easily the equal of Races of Faerûn. My advice to anyone playing in an Eberron campaign would be to buy the book. I also encourage non-Eberron DM’s to purchase it, as it’s contents are both well suited for adopting to a home-brew campaign, as well as for serving as a primer for new-to-Eberron Dungeon Masters. *** *** On the flip side (and despite its cover) I disagree with the assessment that RoE isn’t an “Eberron” book. Such assessments are by their nature subjective and the cover doesn’t help matters much, but overall I don’t think there’s much evidence to claim “it aint Eberron”. I could see an Eberron purist/fan boy (meant in a non-derogatory manner, of course) thinking otherwise. However such attitudes can’t really counter the existence of all the Eberron specific material that make up the book, nor all the useful to DM’s and players layout of that material. Lastly I think it’s important to contrast this book with Races of Faerûn, in the sense that RoF had years and years worth of lore to draw upon, whereas RoE simply does not. Because of this, I don’t think it makes much sense to expect an all inclusive look at all the different races to be found in Eberron. On the bright side maybe that means RoE book two will arrive some day. David Maxson
Happenchance 04-24-05, 04:26 AM	In the "Races of Eberron" book there is a feat called Master Linguist that grants the following benefit: "Each time you gain a level, including the level at which you select this feat, you learn a new language(as if you had spent 1 skill point on the Speak Language skill)." My friend says that the character would gain a language every level. I say that seeing as how the feat does not say that it grants the character Speak Language as a Class Skill, then the character (unless the character already had Speak Languange as a Class Skill) would gain a language every other level. Assuming of course the chacter had maxed out his/her ranks in said skill. Who is right? :confused:
Beleriphon 04-24-05, 04:45 AM	It was a horrible idea to include some of City of Towers with the book. Well, I'll revise that. It's a good idea that was terribly implemented. Like the Eberron soundtrack, this little booklet should have been stuck simply on the middle of the back cover's interior. Instead, it's wedged into the spine at the very end. It has to be ripped out along with the Wizards feedback form. After you do rip it out, there's a big gap. No its not, it has a little stick pad, although its hard to see. The sample chapters actually peel out quite nicely with no damage. The big arse info card on the other hand does not, what happened to perforated sheets?
DarkWarriorKarg 04-24-05, 09:36 AM	In the "Races of Eberron" book there is a feat called Master Linguist that grants the following benefit: "Each time you gain a level, including the level at which you select this feat, you learn a new language(as if you had spent 1 skill point on the Speak Language skill)." My friend says that the character would gain a language every level. I say that seeing as how the feat does not say that it grants the character Speak Language as a Class Skill, then the character (unless the character already had Speak Languange as a Class Skill) would gain a language every other level. Assuming of course the chacter had maxed out his/her ranks in said skill. Who is right? :confused: Check out the "Errors in RoE" thread. Basically, a probable editing error, originally written with changelings in mind (languages are always class skills for them). It's supposed to be 1 language/level.
Arcane Guyver 04-24-05, 05:41 PM	I think RoE is a decent book. I'm annoyed at the paper quality - half the pages in my copy are sort of lightly bent due to that. It seems to me that it's a good book for players to get if they're too cheap for the ECS.
Wren 04-24-05, 05:47 PM	Sigh... still waiting on my copy. Did'nt have the funds till just recently, now Amazon is not shipping the book... its been two days now. (Not including today - Sunday)
scaryfroman 04-24-05, 08:30 PM	I just got it yesterday, and I'm moderately impressed. What it really made me want to do was play a shifter. I love all the shifter crunch in the book (and a little bit of the fluff). In fact, I like almost all of the crunch in the book, which IMO is pretty much the big reason to buy a book. I'm glad they're doing more with psionics though. There was more psionics content in there than every book since the XPH combined.
Roxlimn 04-25-05, 12:04 PM	I have to say that I like the book. The stuff we get here for free isn't really for free. Keith does this in his spare time, but WotC pays him enough so that he doesn't have to flip burgers for a living. Part of the compromise is that occasionally, some bad stuff gets thrown in. Think of the cost of Races of Eberron as partially paying for Dragonshards and Hellcow posting. Even if every single Eberron book ever published from here on out sucked as bad as Races of Destiny does, I'd happily buy them if it means more time for Hellcow to post and for the Dragonshards to continue in the same high quality they've always shown. There are parts of the book that I like and parts that I don't. Not all of them aren't written by Keith. Kalashtar Quibbles For example, the kalashtar section is reputedly written by Hellcow, and I'm ready to believe it, given the quality of its writing. It's really top notch stuff. Even so, it does kind of jar a bit. If kalashtar have personality traits forged partially from very old spirits, and they tend to be more mature, then why don't they get a Wisdom bonus? Doesn't seem right to me. "At an age when most human children are stealing sweets, she was already concerned about ethics and morality." It seems that the age of the spirit influences the speed of moral and psychological development of the kalashtar child. It seems somehow wrong to simply presume that they simply mature faster and then stop maturing altogether to allow the other races to catch up. Indeed, Wisdom is a valued attribute in kalashtar communities: "The kalashtar respect age and wisdom." A little of the content of the kalashtar chapter don't mesh well with their racial attributes or else ignores the impact of these as against promoting new material in the book. For example, "A Day in the Life" does not explore how kalashtar feel about being masters of social interaction and how this affects their daily lives. Note that these bonuses are not exclusive to other races, nor are they countered by corresponding bonuses on the alternate skills. For example, they have a talent for deception, but not for uncovering it. Despite the fact that Diplomacy should smooth things over, living in an environment where eveyone can Bluff better than they can Sense Motive should have some kind of an effect. These are little quibbles, though, and I'm happy with that chapter on the whole. Wonderful Warforged: Despite the fact that many apprently weren't pleased with the way the Warforged were portrayed in the book, I was mostly pleased myself. "A Day in the Life" demonstrates and expands on much of the material in ECS and some of it is really quite logical. Much of it is stuff we already know, so Eberron fans may not think much of it. "Warforged Psychology" carries the same problem, but assuming you aren't already familiar with the material, it's really quite good. I don't really see a problem with a hobby that's repetitious or unending. Many humans have just such a hobby themselves. Yes, even counting blades of grass. It seems appropriate to me for a Warforged to adopt a hobby that's repetitive or unending as a way to easily grasp at something to do when everyone's asleep. You can't very well pursue an epic quest to the north when you're already going to an epic quest to the south. You have to carry your interests with you. Might as well practice the lute, or repair the armor, or sharpen the weapons. In fact, such a thing would be quite a human thing to do, if the human had a Ring of Sustenance. If you don't have anything to do, you do anything that's available, even if it's nothing more than counting the sheep in the distance, or imagining unending patterns of animals in the clouds. The only thing that rather irks me is the "Art" portion. Art by mistake? No desire to express emotion? One would think that given their already sizable limitations in that regard, they'd find more of an interest in expressing themselves through alternative means. I don't see Warforged as being Savants. Shifty Shifters The Shifters section was the worst for me. There are many kinds of shifters, no? Are their traits inherited? Do Razorclaws have Razorclaw children? Is there some kind of pattern to it? Amongst themselves, do not the different "talents" they possess tend to make them behave a certain way towards others? Are they regarded by others in a particular way? For example, it seems only natural that a Dreamshift Shifter would experience some kind of pressure to pursue goals that naturally complement her abilities, if only the very slightest from her parents or teachers. Heaven forbid her peers actually have an interest in her future independence. Likewise, a Beasthide Shifter might find himself called upon to support the community in a manner traditional of Beasthides, if he were up to it. Moreover, the entire chapter seemed to hammer in "self-reliant loner," with barely any hint of creativity or variety in anything. Shifters value independence. I get it. Don't the supposedly CG Elves in other setting do that, too? So what else have they got? I would have preferred more material on Hrazhak and how it impacts the community and the individual. There wasn't much in the way of imanigative writing in this section. It's too "safe" to have much value. I daresay many on the boards could have come up with a better chapter. Changeling Cheer There's nothing in here that the dedicated poster doesn't already expect or suspect, but the fact that it's in an offical book form makes me all giddy. Who'd have thunk, eh? There's all sorts of thing in there that suggest lots of interesting things you can do as a Changeling character, from pursuing a comedy of mistaken indentity to soap operatic drama encounters in an assumed form. Very fun. But it ain't City of Towers. No siree.
Gurv 04-25-05, 12:21 PM	Kalashtar Quibbles For example, the kalashtar section is reputedly written by Hellcow, and I'm ready to believe it, given the quality of its writing. It's really top notch stuff. Even so, it does kind of jar a bit. If kalashtar have personality traits forged partially from very old spirits, and they tend to be more mature, then why don't they get a Wisdom bonus? Doesn't seem right to me. These are little quibbles, though, and I'm happy with that chapter on the whole. Aside from the mechanical balance reason for this (give 'em a Wisdom bonus and suddenly they're clerics, like it or not), Wisdom doesn't really represent morality. Wisdom represents general awareness for the most part, and although kalashtar might have more experince to make them aware of the world around them, it could also be said that having a dual-consiousness might be distracting enough to warrent a penalty to Wisdom. The fact that young kalashtar are concerned about morality sooner is because that is what those around them are concerned about (their own inner spirit and peers alike); human children surrounded by people obsessed with morality likewise becomes concerned about it at a younger age but do not get a Wis bonus. The only difference is that human children only get this kind of guidance rarely, while all kalashtar children get it 24/7. It isn't some special chemical or physical thing they all have; it is learned, albeit from a psychic source.
Roxlimn 04-25-05, 12:39 PM	Gurv: The fact that young kalashtar are concerned about morality sooner is because that is what those around them are concerned about (their own inner spirit and peers alike); human children surrounded by people obsessed with morality likewise becomes concerned about it at a younger age but do not get a Wis bonus. The only difference is that human children only get this kind of guidance rarely, while all kalashtar children get it 24/7. It isn't some special chemical or physical thing they all have; it is learned, albeit from a psychic source. You're quite mistaken. Piaget's model of Moral Development is generally considered a good guide for the normal development of human children and it holds pretty true whether or not the child is instructed or not. The limiting factor is the ability of the brain to understand various levels of self-awareness - therefore, even an adult cannot be expected to be held to higher levels of moral aptitude if he suffers from a developmental problem or critical brain or psychological damage. Clearly, if kalashtar children can conciously concern themselves with morality and ethics, then they can be assumed to be reached the level of Abstract Morality, a level of moral development that is not reached by all people, and in any case, normally occurs only in the early teen years. Typically, children who steal sweets are in the "Might is Right" stage or moral development, or at most, at the Formal Morality stage of development. Definitely, when we speak of children stealing sweets, this usually points to a level below that of even Formal Morality. Therefore, it seems to be that the typical kalashtar's moral development is hastened and augmented by being part quori spirit. The "morality" I use in this sense, isn't really the "morality" we use in the usual colloquial sense, as I'm sure you're aware of by now. Wisdom isn't morality, but the awareness and specifically, self-awareness and awareness of how the world is is typically representative of Wisdom. A person advanced into the stage of Abstract Morality isn't necessarily a moral person. He just understands what Abstract Morality is all about - his sense of morality perceives the abstract. Even if the dual nature of the kalashtar were conflicting, the nature of this conflict based on how it was portrayed can only lead to a better understanding of the world, and ultimately a clearer view of how things really are - better perception, as it were. I understand that you can't give kalashtar a Wisdom bonus. I just wish they tried to make the thing consistent.
ekomega 04-25-05, 02:49 PM	I hate when people start conversations and ask questions just so they can go off about how great they are and how much they know. Congratulations. I doubt the writers of that section of RoE had any idea about anything you just said. And you knew that. It isn't even an argument, or something that can be discussed. You're raising a point about the writing that, inadvertantly, implied something of which the writers had no intention whatsoever. I realized this while discussing the physics of the moons dragonshard. I had figured that the writers had looked into that and tried to make the physics make sense. Because I know Physics. But they didn't. And I realize that it would be too much to ask to have them do that. For a small benefit, and a small group of nerds, they would waste lots and lots of time figuring things out that are unimportant. It's not worth it, and I'm glad they spent their time elsewhere. I shouldn't have hassled them about it, although the discussion with others on the board was entertaining and enlightening. The point: Who knows what education, or how educated, the writers are. They're writing to an audience with a very wide base of everything, including education and background. Things they write can't be scrutinized with the level you are trying. They write flavor text that sounds good. They don't analyze child psychology. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't know. Otherwise, as the beginning of my post indicates, that is very lame. Normally, I have no problem with discussing such issues as you have raised on the message board. It's a message board, that's what it's for. But the reason I posted this is because 1) you ranted at someone while trying to sound brilliant, and 2) because you're trying to justify a Wisdom bonus. I'm not the board police, but then I think grammar nazis should tell people where they're wrong, also. So...have at it?
Roxlimn 04-25-05, 03:19 PM	ekonega: No. What I said is something every parent I know is familiar with. It should be common knowledge. You can't teach children complicated morality issues below a certain age, and they themselves will indicate when they're ready. Honestly, does no writer know about how to raise a kid? For example, parents should be aware that you can't teach a child below the age of 2 to really share. He or she isn't self-aware enough to process the information. She knows who she is, but she doesn't know that you're a "self" like she is. She can't empathize. You can teach her to behave like she's "sharing," but it's not the same thing. My father taught me this, not medical school. Needless to say, a small child who's wondering about the meaning of existence is well beyond what's normal for her age, and every parent should have learned this from their parents. Such children ususally grow to be wiser adults than the rest of us, and they to see to the heart of things much more easily than normal people. They're not pretenaturally smart, they're preternatually wise, and it shouldn't take you a medical degree to know that! And you know what? I wasn't ranting, but I am now!