Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soichiro Arima 02-06-05, 03:53 PM	I'm playing a lv. 9 Human Artificer. We were facing down the BBEG of the current campaign arc and I killed them with one hit but the DM ignored the rules! What is the point of comeing up with a one hit kill stratigy if it never works when you really really need it to work just becuase the DM doesnt want it too! This girl has been causeing trouble for all of Kovahaire, we have been fighting her since level 5 (and we play with 1/4 XP rules). Why would I and the rest of the party if not world want this girl dead in one hit. Oh and its not like I didnt kill her by just a few HP either (I could understand that) but this is what happened. I have the following feats: Wand Mastery, Twin Spell, Maximize Spell, Energy Amixiything (two types of damage). What I had: Wand of fireball (Lv. 9) with 33 charges on it. What I did: I used my Metamagic spell completion ability to apply all of those metamagic feats to my wand in exhange for more charges used. I've done it before just not with all of them at once. For 13 charges I did a Twined, Maximized and Energy Animxiythinged Fireball at caster level 11. The resulting damage was 264 damage half was Fire half was Acid. Vol on the otherhand didn't have that much HP and failed both saves! I took her to -43 HP (she had taken some damage already btw but not much). Her minions were vaporized by the attack, the floor was gone she was 2 levels of the building down (the acid negated the hardness of the floor, ceiling and walls doing enouph damage to destroy them in 20ft in ever derection). But when I drop down (brouch of feather fall) to bring her dead body back up she gets up and teleports away! I didnt even get an oppertunity to attack her! I could have done it again in the amount of time needed for her to do that! Why they hell is my DM being such a profanity removed. Me and 2 other players almost walked out that minute becuase of the Dms stupid choice. We didnt spend forever working up to the encounter lossing 2 team mates getting to her to finally kill her by more than 30 HP thans needed and have her be completly safe? At first I though amybe she had a contigency item to reserect her but that wasn't the case since it would have taken longer to function as per the spell. The problem was that I could have either blasted her again with my 1-hit kill attack in the amount of time needed to do everything she did, even if it was some kinda way to powerful for her to have 1 standerd action reserection item or spell I could have used my 1/day Dimesion Anchor item on her too! This DM is being a jerk, I took those feats as I was leveling up for the intent of using them like that to finish off Vol, I made sure I had a Wand of Fireball with enouph charges before we went on that mission. The DM knew the whole time that was the parties plan to kill her, it worked, he said she was dropped to -43 HP but then he does a cheap lets here get away thing anyway! Why is he being such a jerk. Me and the other players are thinking of walking from his game anyay now so I guess it doesnt matter. We dont care anymore, we rightfully save the world and the DM takes it away, for all we care we did out job, if they all die becuase of Vol again we arn't going to be around to save them.
Gurv 02-06-05, 04:01 PM	Vol is a 16th level, half-dragon lich.
Soichiro Arima 02-06-05, 04:02 PM	I saw the character sheet the DM had for her, she would not have survived. Also even with the regenerate due to the stupid lich reserection item it isnt that fast. Let's not call each other names.
Edymnion 02-06-05, 04:03 PM	Just so I can understand this. You are upset because you use a horribly broken, overpowered combo to do an insane amount of damage to end the fight in one hit instead of letting the entire party actually enjoy the encounter, and you're upset that the DM is trying to ruin YOUR experience? Forgive me for sounding crass, but it sounds like you are the one trying to ruin the game for everybody else. Your DM should never have let you get to the point where you could do that much damage in one hit, especially not at lvl 9. I would have done the exact same thing as your DM. "You do what? Uh uh, I don't think so..."I saw the character sheet the DM had for herSo you admit to cheating by going through the DM's notes? Your the stupid one!And now you're calling people names like you were an 8 year old that had their toy taken away. Please, either act like a mature adult, or go somewhere else. If you can't treat others with as much respect as you want us to treat you, then perhaps this isn't the best place for you to be.
Arismir 02-06-05, 04:06 PM	Yeah. Ever heard of Rule 0? You should really check it out. DM is always right. As far as why he did what he did. That NPC wasn't suppose to die. Do you want to ruin the campaign arc? He's simply trying to provide an enjoyable campaign for his players and include a well-thought storyline. Honestly, it's not the DMs fault that his players min/max.
Soichiro Arima 02-06-05, 04:06 PM	Its hard to say I ruined the experence for the other players whenthey were ****** off it didnt work either. They wanted me to do that, even gave me the money I needed to craft the want in the first place. When the 7 other PCs want me to do somthing becuase they cant, Im sure its not ruining their fun. Plus The entire partys not level 9. We range from 8-13. And as far as me starting to act mature I wasnt the person whos only responce was calling me stupid. And I didnt look though his notes cheating either, he doesnt hide character sheets because we dont metagame. I planed on doing that long before he even stated Vol.
Pinky's brain 02-06-05, 04:14 PM	This is why players really shouldnt have more information than they can know in character, makes fudging stuff so much easier.
Soichiro Arima 02-06-05, 04:18 PM	Just so I can understand this. You are upset because you use a horribly broken, overpowered combo to do an insane amount of damage to end the fight in one hit instead of letting the entire party actually enjoy the encounter, and you're upset that the DM is trying to ruin YOUR experience? Forgive me for sounding crass, but it sounds like you are the one trying to ruin the game for everybody else. Your DM should never have let you get to the point where you could do that much damage in one hit, especially not at lvl 9. He used almost the same combo to kill my first PC and 2 other PCs. I'm not the only one being 'broken' i need to to keep up, even more so in a party with a level 13! You need to grow up and stop jumping to conclutions!
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-06-05, 04:24 PM	From a player's perpective, aren't you at all bothered that the capstone of the campaign, the final showdown with the BBEG that determines the fate of the continent, is over before anyone has chance to breathe? If I was a player in this group, I'd be a little dissapointed. From a DM's perpective, I would have done a similar thing. He likely planned that encounter as a cinematic clash with a powerful villain, and that was ruined. I've had a similar thing happen to me back when I started DMing. It is VERY annoying when something like that happens, throwing hours of planning out the window for just one action. I sympathise with the DM here, it might have been his fault that he didnt have a very good way of getting out of this, but we all make mistakes. I say go easy on him. Tell him you didnt like how he handled the situation and ask him how he feels about it. Learn from your mistakes and move on. On a side note....how do you know Vol didn't have at least 43 temporary hit points that would allow her to survive the attack?
Alextroy 02-06-05, 04:28 PM	What I did: I used my Metamagic spell completion ability to apply all of those metamagic feats to my wand in exhange for more charges used. I've done it before just not with all of them at once. For 13 charges I did a Twined, Maximized and Energy Animxiythinged Fireball at caster level 11. The resulting damage was 264 damage half was Fire half was Acid. Is that even legal? Metamagic Spell Trigger allows you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell trigger item. It does not say you can add multiple metamagic feats to spell trigger item. Alextroy.
greatfrito 02-06-05, 04:30 PM	Okay, first off, the DM should have never let you get that off in the first place (just my opinion, but that seems... entirely overpowered), but again, that's his fault he didn't deal with it beforehand. Second, I would never -ever- let the PCs read the NPC character stats. I never bluffed in my DnD game I ran, and they wouldn't have metagamed, but still, damn, that just seems like a poor decision. Third, you did spend *counting* 5 feats for this? 4 of them metamagic feats? one of them Wand Mastery? Wait... did he let you take metamagic feats prior to you ever being able to use them?
Soichiro Arima 02-06-05, 04:31 PM	@ieattrollsforbreakfast: I can understand how it upset him but he knew it was comeing. The other players knew they would need me to do that so they wanted me to. I know Vol didnt have Temp HP becuase as she was stated and her spells she would have no way to get that many that would not have regestered on the parties level 12 wizards Goggles of Arcane Sight. @Alextroy: Its legal becuase out DM has done it to us a number of times, but quickend was involved as well. @greatfrito(sp?): Again he used the same tactics so its fair for me to use that ability and yes he let me take them before I could use them (this character started at level 2).
greatfrito 02-06-05, 04:32 PM	Is that even legal? Metamagic Spell Trigger allows you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell trigger item. It does not say you can add multiple metamagic feats to spell trigger item. Alextroy. Yeah, I was just looking it up, actually. I'd personally vote for being able to apply -one- metamagic feat, but uh... it doesn't say either way, so technically the "stacking" translation is valid enough.
Soloran 02-06-05, 04:48 PM	Isn't Vol a lich? If she is, she should have a phylactery. Did you destroy the phyactery? If not, she'll be up and about in a few weeks so what's the bother?
Pinky's brain 02-06-05, 05:07 PM	Only an artificer can be a lich at 9th level (ECL13, 16 if half dragon). If she has an item which gives her regeneration(EX) she could have had lots of contingent quickened CLWs on her though (using craft contingent spell from complete arcane).
Bluebrush 02-06-05, 05:50 PM	If she has an item which gives her regeneration(EX) she could have had lots of contingent quickened CLWs on her though (using craft contingent spell from complete arcane). As a lich, probably not CLW... ^_^
Arismir 02-06-05, 05:50 PM	Anyways, even though you looked at your DM's notes. It's possible that he changed the character. You really can't argue it. Rule 0
Nedlum 02-06-05, 06:26 PM	What irks me, actually, isn't the metagaming, or the Rule Zeroing. I don't understand why the DM let you see the teleport. If it were me, I'd have you decend to find a mountain of rubble from the collapsing floor; if you shifted all the debris, you might find a few fresh corpses, all too charred to be identifiable, too battered for Speak with Dead. Some might be minions, some might be innocents, one might be Vol. The collapse could have started an inferno, so that you'd need to leave right away, no hanging around to be sure you won. Just grab the phylactery, which is convienently located on the table, and run. You destroy it, and she's burnt to a crisp. You win, right? What's the fun in you knowing she got away? Much more fitting if you can never be sure you got your man. (Err, Dragon-Elf-Lich.) Are those rumors more then rumors? Who ordered the Emerald Claw hit squad on your brother? But you saw her die! Didn't you? Nope. You saw her teleport away. What's the fun of a returning villian that you know is still alive?
My Lego 02-06-05, 06:32 PM	Maybe Vol didn't die. I mean a lvl 16 lich. Immune to acid. An energy protection spell and she would have been all right so I think your GM didn't do his homework if she died from that blast.
Kaleanae en'i Mori 02-06-05, 08:21 PM	You are obviously pretty passionate about this outcome. Perhaps instead of airing your dirty laundry like this and having a go at the DM, your group would perhaps be best served to sit down and discuss the issue. If i saw this from one of my players he would not be playing anymore. Could this be a case of the DM failing to realise the abilty of his own group? I have seen this before. I would suggest a deep breath and talk it over one on one. Hopfully move on and continue gaming.
Sturm Jaeger 02-06-05, 08:43 PM	And as far as me starting to act mature I wasnt the person whos only responce was calling me stupid. And I didnt look though his notes cheating either, he doesnt hide character sheets because we dont metagame. I planed on doing that long before he even stated Vol. I don't get this, really. Players (and their characters) using DM info is what metagaming is all about. Whether he hides his notes or not, the players shouldn't be reading it. It spiols the surprises and...well, leads to situations like this. You read his notes ahead of time, prepared a solution based on the info you shouldn't have, and when the challenge came...it didn't work as expected, and you get upset. It sounds to me like a case of metagaming that backfired. As Kaleanae said, it seems reasonable for your group and DM to sit down and discuss these problems. And for the record, no one called you stupid. You called Gurv stupid for no good reason. Please refrain from name-calling, please. Insulting people will not help you.
Edymnion 02-06-05, 09:05 PM	You are obviously pretty passionate about this outcome. Perhaps instead of airing your dirty laundry like this and having a go at the DM, your group would perhaps be best served to sit down and discuss the issue.Ding ding ding, we have a winner :) If i saw this from one of my players he would not be playing anymore.Seriously. If the players have a problem with something that happened, they should take it up with the DM. Running around behind their back like this is a really cheap shot.
Megatron 02-06-05, 09:55 PM	I love people who whine on the internets. I honestly care about your situation and sympathize. You should leave that group and never look back. They don't deserve to have such a valuable player in their party!
motorfirebox 02-06-05, 10:11 PM	i actually have to side with Soichiro on this one--that is, if everything worked the way he says it worked. it's one thing to fudge the rules in favor of the scenario you want to occur; it's a completely different thing to disregard the rules completely because of the GM's own poor planning. if i, as a GM, screw up and allow one of my players to bring my BBEG to -43 hit points, especially if they do it using a trick i've used on them in the past, that's pretty much too bad for me. i'll spend a few late nights reworking my plans, and we'll go from there. i'll take the hit on that, because that's my job. at the very least, Soichiro and his party should have gotten full xp for defeating Vol. bringing a 16th-level lich to -43 hp in one hit is an impressive feat, and shouldn't go unrewarded.
Gurv 02-06-05, 10:38 PM	And for the record, no one called you stupid. You called Gurv stupid for no good reason. Please refrain from name-calling, please. Insulting people will not help you. I feel the need to apologize here. My post has been edited to omit what I called him, as I felt others would find it to be self-evident. So he is justified in responding in kind. Now that I've gotten over that knee-jerk reaction, I just want to say that even if the one being killed were not the most powerful spellcaster in the game (so much so that based on her CR no XP could be awarded), the reaction to the events is unacceptable. For all you know, the BBEG could have been an illusion. It could have been a simulacrum. It could have been anything. Might have even been a 16th level half-dragon lich upon which half the campaign setting draws for inspiration! Seeing the DMs notes is no excuse for anything aside from ejecting you from the game entirely. It is entirely possible that this bad guy staged all of that just to make you think you had won...and then dusted herself off and left, just to freak you out and make you live in dread for the rest of your life. This reminds me of the situation where I enraged a player by attacking him with a phase spider. He had no idea what was going on and demanded to be told. I told him to sit down, make the appropriate checks, and I'd tell him what was going on as soon as I :censored: well thought his character knew! When something happens that you can not explain, that means that something has happened that your character cannot explain. It means it is time to figure this stuff out. Just because you cannot use your uber-magic to blow up every pile of hit points you consider to be opposing you does not mean that you can come complaining that your DM cheated you. The DM cannot cheat. You can have a bad DM, sure. I would even agree that you do have a bad DM. Not because he didn't let you defeat Vol, but because he let you see his notes, admitted that he was wrong, and didn't tell you to stop metagaming. See my sig. It applies here.
Mandarbgrim 02-06-05, 11:06 PM	The DM is not all knowing. He can be just as immature, stupid, brilliant, powergaming, metagaming, and other adjectives/nouns as any player. There is nothing that makes him inherently just, impartial, or fair. If the DM has used that tactic on you before it is fairplay. If the party had talked about this tactic before, and the DM knows the party is intending to use a tactic he introduced into the game on one of his villains..and fails to come up with a good way to counter this without pulling out a rule 0 type of solution like he has appeared to do...then the players have ever right to be upset with him. There were a large number of things the DM could have done differently to avoid this situation. I think his anger at this, assuming what he is saying is true, is a perfectly acceptable and expected response.
Imruphel 02-07-05, 12:02 AM	It sounds like the campaign has simply gotten a little bit out of control. Are you guys fairly young and fairly new to the game? I'm not asking that to insult you, rather, I just want to suggest that your DM get some help on one of the appropriate messageboards... especially with respect to displaying NPC character sheets to the players. This doesn't avoid metagaming as you have asserted: it actively encourages it.
ekomega 02-07-05, 01:26 AM	I have to sympathize with the guy a little, but at the same time say I've dealt with really whiny players. On the one hand, I know how it sucks to plan something great and have it be messed up because of poor DM planning. That's bad DM work. Especially, as others mentioned, seeing the teleport. And letting you see his notes! I always hide my notes and barricade them somewhere and make sure that no one looks at the notes. I don't know what to say. It seems like he has a bad DM and can whine. On the other hand, I've been a DM (albeit maybe not so great when these events transpired) and had players become really militant and angry and whiny. One time, I had the PCs go after a Blue Dragon in a cave. They went into the cave without buying one single lightning protection item or preparing one single lightning protection spell even though they knew blue dragons shoot lightning and there was a blue dragon inside. They went in, found a 20' wide solid steel door with a giant skull as a handle, and two young blue dragons (whom they killed). Opening the door, they figured (I guess) that they had killed the blue dragons and a massive treasure pile awaited them. When they opened the door, they found a huge 100' by 300' room and no treasure. When the parent Blue dragon arrived, they still had no lightning protection AT ALL, and consequently one PC died in a single hit from a maximized, lingering lightning breath. I never heard the end of this, and consequently the game ended because the PCs got so upset over the guy dying even though they should've seen it coming. They *****ed and moaned and almost got into a physical fight because I was "unfair", etc., even though it was their own poor planning and not paying attention that got them into it. This case sounds a lot like my story rather than the DM being bad. All of the guy's information is based on seeing the DM's notes, which is a big no-no for me. The notes could've changed, the DM could've protected Vol well, and many other things. Just because you thought you knew something, based on the information you read, doesn't mean the DM is guilty because it didn't turn out how you thought. If the DM uses the same trick on you with the metamagic feats, maybe you should prepare better for that trick (i.e. protection spells, raise dead scrolls, etc.) rather than complaining about "fair play". The answer is to talk it over like everyone says and then stop whining on here. What did you expect everyone to say when you posted? "oh, your DM sucks and is horrible". Congratulations, and then where would you be? same place as before, but with a lot of internet losers* siding with you. Way to go. *note - no offense to internet losers.
The White Sorcerer 02-07-05, 04:20 AM	Let me get this straight: Your DM had used the same combo before to kill your character, and knew you were also going to use it. Your DM said Vol was dropped to -43. This isn't a case of Rule 0, this is a case of bad DMing.
Kast 02-07-05, 05:15 AM	There's no way that trick (if it's even legal) would have worked on her anyway if she was played properly, so it's really a moot point. She's already immune to acid, cold and electricity so it's likely she'd have an item that gave her protection from fire as well (sonic too IMO). There's no way an NPC of her experience and intelligence is going to get punk'd that way. She also has contingency so any of these would have saved her: Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Dimension Door, Teleport and others. Morever I'd cast Moment of Prescience every morning so I'd never be blindsided by a single attack. Not to mention she has access to pretty much any magic item available, as well as all spells 8th and lower, plus a serious network of spies and agents. It's unlikely a group of 16th level PCs could take her, much less a group of 9ths. Also, I don't think you can apply more than one meta-magic feat at a time using Meta-magic spell trigger, or at least you shouldn't be able to - there's nothing in the text to indicate you can and inference indicates you can't (the way they describe it's use and the conjunction or).
NOOC PHD 02-07-05, 05:30 AM	Centuries ago, Vol built an eldritch machine that contains her phylactery and connects her to all of her followers. Anytime she is slain (reduced to -10 hit points) a number of her followers are drained of the hit points necessary to restore her to life. Only one hit point is drained from any one worshipper, so they rarely notice the event - it just feels like they're a bit under the weather. In order to finally slay Vol, the machine must be destroyed, her phylactery must be separated from it or all of her followers must be slain. Obviously the above is not from the setting per se, but it completely fits with the rules and the setting and would adequately explain what happened to your scenario. The DM doesn't have to cheat, and Eberron is not a video game. If you want a BBEG that you can take out in a single attack, pick a different campaign setting. Eberron is set up to do precisely what happened to you. BTW - as a player, I'd be upset if we nuked Vol and got no XP; if she gets away, that's just part of the fun. Why would you watch series two if the heroes did it all in series one?
The White Sorcerer 02-07-05, 05:55 AM	Did you get XP for her? You did defeat her, after all. And to all those who say that the trick shouldn't've worked: Doesn't matter. The DM said she was at -43, which means she was destroyed. So the trick worked.
Pinky's brain 02-07-05, 06:34 AM	Also, I don't think you can apply more than one meta-magic feat at a time using Meta-magic spell trigger, or at least you shouldn't be able to - there's nothing in the text to indicate you can and inference indicates you can't (the way they describe it's use and the conjunction or).He'd just have stacked on metamagic item then, but regardless ... the DM allowed it.
Soichiro Arima 02-07-05, 07:08 AM	Also I forgot to mention that her acid immunity was renderd useless temporaily by a spell the level 12 wizard cast (I dont know where it was from, 3rd party maybe). I think it did it for 1 round/level.
BMStroh 02-07-05, 08:08 AM	Without hearing from the DM, it's tough to make a call on a message board. As several others have mentioned, if you're looking for resolution, I doubt a vote of a couple of dozen internet strangers is the way to go. Talk to your DM out of game and see if there's more to the scene than meets the eye. With that said, I doubt this would have happened at my table, for a variety of reasons. Again, I think most of them have already been mentioned: players don't get to see my notes, characters probably don't know that she's immune to acid, she's a tough, powerful NPC, and is likely to have dealt with things a lot tougher than you throughout her 'life', etc. I also don't generally reveal 'how dead' a major NPC is, although it is fairly common for me to let the players know exactly how badly they destroyed a mook. If the DM said you took Vol to -43 HP, all discussions of your tactics aside, she should probably be toast. But, as a player, you don't know what sort of contingency plans she had in place, either. Somehow, "You enter the room and see... Vol. Alone. With a target taped to her back" doesn't strike me as the most effective way to play a near-immortal being with her background. And given her background, self-preservation is likely to be a major focus of her existence.
Makabriel 02-07-05, 10:47 AM	Gawd I hate twinking.. Yeah, I think the DM made a few errs in judgement. The first being letting his players know the villians current HP. Never tell a player "He has 3hp left" or "You took him down to neg 6" That's not for them to know. The other is allowing the min/maxing go on. I'm getting the gist that there's more than just the wand combo going on, but that's my opinion. Messed up situation all around. If they got the xp out of it, there should be no complaining. It'll give them another chance to "kill" her yet again.
Brastan 02-07-05, 11:16 AM	How mad would you be if you saw her vaporized and then had her show up again an month? I know sever methods other than Resurrection to bring hated enemies back to torment my players. I think the lot of you need to get some perspective and some experience. Although two cheep moves don't make for good gaming. As a DM I've had many favored NPCs get slaughter in 1 or 2 rounds of combat. Have you ever seen a video game cut sequence? The screen narrows to wide screen format, and then the villain gets one last nasty comment before retreating, thats what you saw. I would ask you to ask your DM to contact me here for some tips on keeping villains alive after such an event without being cheep about it and utterly ignoring some rules. If you got the XP for it and treasure I'd quit balling about it. If not then your DM needs to pay up on that account. To the meta-magic wand blasting person, check up on how you can stop that as you may need info it come next session. You used now every wand carrying mage your DM uses from here on out is obliged to pack that same trick. And buts on that account thats just fair all round (as a side note that is precisely why I and others in my group don't push such tactics, it gives the DMs an excuse to be nasty as the Nine Hells)
Gurv 02-07-05, 11:41 AM	Centuries ago, Vol built an eldritch machine that contains her phylactery and connects her to all of her followers. Anytime she is slain (reduced to -10 hit points) a number of her followers are drained of the hit points necessary to restore her to life. Only one hit point is drained from any one worshipper, so they rarely notice the event - it just feels like they're a bit under the weather. In order to finally slay Vol, the machine must be destroyed, her phylactery must be separated from it or all of her followers must be slain. I'm stealing this. Although on a rules note, Vol would die at 0 hit points, as she is undead. But an eldritch machine built around her phylactery...thats brilliant! Maybe instead of her followers it could be the Karrnathi Undead Legions. It would say loads about her influence over them.
Kid SixXx 02-07-05, 11:56 AM	Yeesh. From the sounds of the battle description I'm inclined to think that the title of the thread should be "DM Did Not Do Enough To Protect NPC" especially if Vol (who should be around CR 19 or 20 by my count) got punked out by a party that included a 9th lvl Artificer. The power up suite I'd build for her alone would make sure she had at least 3 full rounds of spellcasting offense available to her before reapplying some of her buffs. An encounter wil Vol herself should be an endgame encounter that few (if any) heroes walk away from. The fact that a 12th lvl mage was able to successfully disable one of her resistances with a single spell (on the very first casting) makes me view the entire encounter with a great deal of suspicion. I suppose her primary magic item was either the Robe of Gift Wrapping Glamour or the dreaded Silver Platter Amulet. I'd love to see the character sheets as well as the blow-by-blow encounter log, if there is one. The lack of specifics on what spells were cast and what feats were used only serves to make a foggy situation even foggier. I am also swiping the Xen'Drik eldritch machine protection for the phylactery. That is soooo awesomely pulpy.
Edymnion 02-07-05, 02:17 PM	Did you get XP for her? You did defeat her, after all.They shouldn't have. Vol is a lvl 16 caster. Half Dragon, that pumps it up some more, lich even more so. Her CR is off the chart compared to a lvl 9 party. It doesn't matter if they killed her or not. Under the CR rules, that victory is considered to be either impossible, or of such a horrible fluke as to have been outside of player control anyway. By the rules, they should not get any xp for the encounter at all. Big kick in the head when you've been arguing how your side is right accourding to the RAW, when those same rules turn around and say you don't get jack for winning. ;) As for the rest of this, I want to hear from the DM on this. It could very well be the case that the original poster is feeding us all a line about how bad the DM did all of this, and that the DM let them see the campaign notes, and all of that. We don't know. He could just be spinning things up so that he looks innocent and the DM looks like an ass. We just don't know.
The White Sorcerer 02-07-05, 02:20 PM	BTW, I don't see why the DM had to insta-resurrect Vol. If he really wanted her to appear again, all he had to do is remember that she's a lich.
fizzbang 02-07-05, 03:00 PM	If the DM said you took Vol to -43 HP, all discussions of your tactics aside, she should probably be toast. Obviously, Vol has upgraded to being half-Terasque!
Ricohard_Draconis 02-07-05, 03:06 PM	seeing as she is CR 23 (16 caster levels + 3 half dragon + 4 lich) and even the highest level he said in the party was 13 would seem to mean that they were at least 10 levels below her, and therefore outside the Xp chart.
Teron Gorefiend 02-07-05, 05:16 PM	Wow... I'm just appalled that a DM would twink out NPC's so they could nuke PC's with 264-damage fireballs. How is that fun for anyone?
Soichiro Arima 02-07-05, 05:22 PM	They shouldn't have. Vol is a lvl 16 caster. Half Dragon, that pumps it up some more, lich even more so. Her CR is off the chart compared to a lvl 9 party. It doesn't matter if they killed her or not. Under the CR rules, that victory is considered to be either impossible, or of such a horrible fluke as to have been outside of player control anyway. By the rules, they should not get any xp for the encounter at all. Big kick in the head when you've been arguing how your side is right accourding to the RAW, when those same rules turn around and say you don't get jack for winning. ;) As for the rest of this, I want to hear from the DM on this. It could very well be the case that the original poster is feeding us all a line about how bad the DM did all of this, and that the DM let them see the campaign notes, and all of that. We don't know. He could just be spinning things up so that he looks innocent and the DM looks like an ass. We just don't know. He doesnt have a account on this site but if you really want I can have him get one since after our talk he is willing to stop being a cheap ass. He admited that he saved Vol like that becuase he didn't expenct Vol to fail the save from the level 12 wizards spell (Elemental Penartration or something, 3rd party). She rolled a 2, she needed a 3 to pass (it was hightended so caster level was higher than normal. Origonally we were suposed to fighter her and my combo wasn't supposed to work since he was sure she would pass the save. Then she was going to Sudden Maximize Quicken Fireball the group on her init and then teleport to another room, activate her castles self distruct (4 of us would have survived the fireball, not me though) then teleport out of that room to an alternate base. The reason we caught her of gaurd was it was supposed to be a trap for her. She (and the DM) didn't expect us to be able to harm her that much and so she wasnt as prepared. But since we failed her save and was toast he wanted a way for the story to continue without having for her to use the lick item come back thing since we had already figured out what it was, just had to find it and could have within a month. We ended the campaign though and are going to try and play a less munchkiny game (I dont like the would twinky becuase when i think of twink something else comes to mind and I dont like mixing my young effeminate hom0sexual bois and D&D, to dristracting and nothing is accomplished, well anything D&D related ;) ).
Slayen 02-07-05, 05:26 PM	Vol's CR is 20, not 23. The incress to CR from Lich and Half-Dragon are both +2 so it would be 16+2+2=20.
Kast 02-07-05, 05:37 PM	BTW, what spell suppresses natural acid immunity? I'd like to know about that one, it could be very useful for one of my PCs or NPCs.
MoogleEmpMog 02-07-05, 05:39 PM	Having a lich insta-raise is bad GMing - the lich is basically designed to make a lucky one-hit-kill not a problem because it can always come back. I really don't understand why that's not what was done here.
Ricohard_Draconis 02-07-05, 05:39 PM	your right, sorry. I was looking at the LA not the CR. My bad
Gurv 02-07-05, 05:42 PM	Vol's CR is 20, not 23. The incress to CR from Lich and Half-Dragon are both +2 so it would be 16+2+2=20. Correct. Her ECL would be 23, not her CR. Personally, I would ad hoc both a little lower. For example, the Hit Die increase from half-dragon and the increase to Con both become unimportant once the Lich template is used. So its not a very good combo.
Kast 02-07-05, 06:15 PM	Having a lich insta-raise is bad GMing - the lich is basically designed to make a lucky one-hit-kill not a problem because it can always come back. I really don't understand why that's not what was done here. I concur. She should have just been vaporized. Maybe the GM panicked, or just is inexperienced.
Dragom 02-07-05, 06:23 PM	Um... are green dragons immune to acid? And wasn't half your damage acid?
Sturm Jaeger 02-07-05, 08:31 PM	Um... are green dragons immune to acid? And wasn't half your damage acid? Yes, they are. But I think the OP said something about a wizard casting a spell that removed the immunity, or something like that.
Imruphel 02-07-05, 08:49 PM	(snip) Maybe the GM panicked, or just is inexperienced. I'm simply assuming that it's a very young group and they're still learning the game.
Golbez57 02-09-05, 02:55 PM	I'm most compelled to reply to this thread to give props to you, NOOC PHD, for your amazing idea. I think the evil DMs in all of us grew a few more horns upon reading that...! Best of all is that the concept is totally in line with the unique villian in question. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = To me, D & D is a "shared storytelling experience". Sadly, there's much more in the rules of our beloved game that cast it as a collection of clashing numbers than as what it is for me and what I hope it is for my players. That being said, to avoid frustrations like these in the future, Soichiro, I humbly suggest the following for when you and the rest of your friends, because if nothing else, I think the sincere gamers who have posted here hope the game does build or enhance friendships between all of you at the table: 1. Follow the core rules for game sessions--the story is revealed to the players through a series of encounters planned and described by the DM rather than through the sharing of game notes and character sheets, dice rolls for NPCs done out of sight of the players, and so on. 2. Do create your characters as more than collections of statistics--give them personality traits, quirks, dreams, fears, and so on. Take classes and Feats and skills that support your ideas. 3. Spend time having your characters face challenges that don't come down to just seeing who can bring who's Hit Points down into the nether depths first. Maybe you do all of these things already, but what's been shared already doesn't suggest that. The "Kick in the Door" style described in the DMG is a legitimate style of play, but there is a difference between it and having an extended gladiatorial contest between the DM and the players, simply set in different areas and with different foes. That difference being: the DM and the players are in this together to have fun, and in the end, no matter if heroes or villians live or die, everyone has FUN.
Power of the Horde 02-11-05, 04:45 PM	BTW, I don't see why the DM had to insta-resurrect Vol. If he really wanted her to appear again, all he had to do is remember that she's a lich. Maybe he didn't want them to loot her equipment.