Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crashbangboom 04-02-07, 09:59 AM	I'm part of a group that has been playing D&D in one form or another together for almost 15 years. 90% are power gamers and I can't figure out just how much of a cr increase I need to not have them destroy EVERYTHING I throw at them in just a handfull of rounds. the average party size ranges from 4 to 8 players at a time? any help would be GREATLY APPRECIATED, thank you:surrender :surrender
Grymar 04-02-07, 10:35 AM	keep them off balance by setting up an expectation and then breaking it. If they are used to one encounter a day, make sure you have more than that, but in a cool way like with the dying breath the evil cleric calls upon an ancient force which then attacks the party in completely new ways. Have them set out to fight say undead, and then hit them with fiends or constructs. Or have a diversion set up so they line up for their normal fight, then have them hit from behind with a second, larger force. You don't have to go crazy with the CR, just be creative. Look at their tactics and use the same against them. Have an enemy who scrys on them and is perfectly prepared to counter their favorite tricks.
Nundahl 04-02-07, 10:43 AM	Well first, what you already know, is to go much higher. A party with up to 8 players isn't the same as two individual parties of 4 ... you've got loads of different class abilities and skills complimenting each other to cover each other's weakness. Don't be afraid to kill. It happens. Find out what your player's are good at, and exploit a bit ... not over the top, let their strengths shine, but make that Fighter with almost no Wisdom feel it when you nail him with a Will save. Better yet, make it a dominate so he has to take out one of the other players. They won't want to kill him, but they'll need to stop him that's for sure. So you've been playing for years and have probably heard all the aforementioned suggestions. Ok, ok. But you're asking for crunch when you say "what CR adjustment" but in truth there really isn't one. The rules are so malleable that it just depends on the party. I run a game with 5 players, and I have to double their average level to find an acceptable CR. These guys are damage powerhouses, and they love it. I have another group however, 5 people most of which have never played D&D, and I've gone average party level +1 for CR, and they are getting spanked on what should be easy fights. The fighter with his insane AC just keeps getting hit by my big nasty Ogre NPC, and all of that boils down to luck. Good, Bad, whatever you call it, the Ogre just rolled high and bashed him. Which leads me to another good, and final point. Cheat. If the fight is supposed to be epic, if its supposed to be challenging, don't waste it. Show them by making a few two's rolled behind your screen magically become 17's, and look what that does. Now they have to be scared, now they are coming close to death, but in the end, you know they had the win a while back, so let them recover during the last few rounds by missing a few times regardless of what you roll. Got a crit threat when your NPC should already be dead? Too bad, ignore it, let the players have their moment to shine too. Phew, I should really get some things done now, best of luck to you. -Nundahl
crashbangboom 04-02-07, 12:36 PM	thanks for the input, it really will help.
goblin_pride 04-02-07, 06:07 PM	Another way around it is in numbers. If the PCs take out big-time bad guys too quickly and too easily, have the next one prepared for it with greater than normal numbers of minions. Sure, the bad guy might only have goblins or kobolds on the front lines, but if you use alot of them and give them advantages like cover, concealment and fall back positions the players can't get to, they'll hand your PCs their butts. If you want to be particularly cruel, give them minor magic items. The PCs in my game were walking all over the NPC orcs until I tossed in a trio of goblins throwing minor magic items that work like a fireball. Let me tell you, once the fireballs start popping and the players start looking to save their own skin, the CR doesn't need to be boosted. Make your players get creative by being creative yourself, no CR in the world can measure that.
Macrovore 04-02-07, 06:19 PM	make them fight monks. troll monks. half-red dragon monks. half-red dragon monks with rings of major acid and resistance.