Do classic fiends have a place? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do classic fiends have a place? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WarlockDa
12-06-06, 10:15 PM After two nights I've given up on searching the forums, so I figured I'd try simply asking.

How would classic fiends (Pit Fiends, Balors, etc) fit into Eberron?

I'm currently writting up a new campaign, using ideas from Red Hand of Doom, but I'm thinking of having the leader being half fiend instead of half dragon. I'm also planning on him being dupped by a fiend, promised power and the ability to reform the ancient goblinoid empire but really merely helping to free the fiend or his master.

My only fault thus far is how would I tie traditional fiends in,...would they fall in line with the Rakshasha ?
Charles Phipps
12-06-06, 10:23 PM The best way to handle these things I've always felt is to stick traditional fiends in the role of being tied to Khyber. The Devils and Demons war against one another underneath the surface of Khovaire in a literal Underworld.

The Lords of Dust are suggested to essentially be a bunch of rogues whom operate outside of the traditional power structure for the sleeping Rajahs.

The majority are more interested tearing each other apart for Supremacy across every one of the Outer Planes and below the surface.
makeshiftwings
12-06-06, 11:35 PM The fiends work similarly in my game to Charles' as well. I see the classic fiends, demons and devils, as mostly warring in Shavarath and Khyber, and being very... "biblical", I guess. They literally are incarnations of evil, and spend lots of time trying to tempt mortals and spread havoc because that's just what they do. Their minds and outlooks and desires are very alien to most people, and in general they have little interest in typical Eberronian things like money and politics.

This is different than the rakshasa and Lords of Dust, who I see as being much more firmly tied to the material plane and the day to day workings of Eberron. They are much more "human", having more earthly desires like power and conquest, and though they might enjoy messing with people's heads and spreading chaos, they aren't doing it just for the sake of chaos itself like the demons do; instead, they're slowly plotting to take over the world. The Lords of Dust have desires and outlooks similar to normal people... well, if you consider elitist sociopaths normal. They can probably be reasoned with and worked with if they decide to take you seriously.
Charles Phipps
12-06-06, 11:43 PM Yes, it's fun when you realize that the Lords of Dust are considered crazed fanatics and criminals by the rest of demon society. Their version of the Cult of the Dragon Below.

;-)
aelryinth
12-07-06, 01:00 AM I'd go the other route.

Extraplanar demons and devils are outsiders representing the philosophical concepts of Evil. The rakshasas are native outsiders to Eberron who just represent the native Evils of Eberron...their extraplanar cousins probably look at them as poor cousins at best and sadly misguided fools that can't do the job right at worst.

That being said, they'd respect the rajahs for sheer power, if nothing else...but if you assume that every plane has the equivalent of a Dweller in Darkness (and I would), they aren't going to be anymore afraid of the wrath of a Rajah then a Mabarian would be of an invasion from Syriana. I actually rather expect that, because of the prevelance of mortals and how valuable them mortal souls can be to long term goals, they quite enjoy messing around in Eberron and rather think the Rakshasas can't do too much to stop them. And the average Rakshasa is rather weak for a fiend.

===Aelryinth
Darth Syntax
12-07-06, 01:11 AM Balors and Pit Fiends are listed as natives of Fernia in in the ECS, while many other devils and demons are natives of Shavarath. Yugoloths are from Mabar, and there are a few others scattered about the plains.

As to the issue of the pit-fiends in particular: I have been slowly and erratically inventing a place for them on Fernia as the highest caste of a rather unpleasant polity known as the Nine hundred Ninety Nine Empires of Fire. There they function as overlords and infernal bureaucrats, ruling over Ifrit, Salamanders, Azer, and other lawful non-good outsiders of the hot and fiery sort.
starsheep
12-07-06, 01:31 AM While the Lords of Dust are usually considered to be synonymous with the rakshasas, I think that "traditional" fiends have a place in the organization. For instance, the Explorer's Handbook gives the encounter tables for Ashtakala, and it's almost entirely fiendish.

I've always thought of the fiends as representing "elemental evil". I don't mean this in the "Temple of Elemental Evil", Tharizdun way. A fiend represents evil in the same way a fire elemental represents fire (by the same token, celestials represent elemental good). They don't exist to further any kind of temporal goals (such as freeing the rajahs), but only to further evil by spreading fear, violence, etc. This elemental nature is demonstrated by their role in the wars of Shavarath, which, as far as we know, has been occurring since the dawn of time, before Khyber even made the rajahs.

So while the bulk of them are spending their time duking it out on Shavarath, a few of them probably chill on Eberron. Some of them are probably sympathetic to the goals of the Lords of Dust, hence their association with them, but I don't think they're universally dedicated to a single cause, like the rakshasa.
makeshiftwings
12-07-06, 01:55 AM I also use the idea that each plane has a mentality to it, and the longer a creature spends on that plane, the more likely it is to turn against its original nature and adapt the mentality of the plane. So a balor fighting in Shavarath basically thinks about nothing but fighting archons and devils, spreading chaos and evil, etc. If you tried to have a conversation with it about the local sports team or a cake recipe, he would just be unable to concentrate and would keep changing the subject to how awesome evil was and how much the archons and devils suck. But if a balor for some reason ends up spending years on Eberron, he will start to gradually adapt a more "human" mentality. He may start to question whether all that fighting in Shavarath is really important, and might decide to instead take up knitting or bowling. Well, maybe not that far, but you get the idea. Most balors would still be evil to the core, but they would start to become more petty and human, rather than alien and idealistic.

This basically extends to the rakshasa and Lords of Dust. They spend all their time on Eberron, and probably view the demons that spend most of their time on the other planes in the same way an average person views a hardcore religious conservative. The outer planes fiends will go around doing any sort of random evil just for the hell of it (no pun intended), whereas the LoD are always trying to further their own goals.

So in my games, if I want to have something appear in a town and say something like "Look upon my countenace and despair, ye wretched mortals. Thy doom is at hand," well, that would be an outer planes fiend. If I want to have someone subtly place agents within the government to divert weapons shipments to an army of cultists, then that would be the Lords of Dust.
CarrotColossus
12-07-06, 03:26 AM I'm with starsheep. Demons and devils are extensions of the planes they live on really and are the embodiment of their alignment. Rakshasas aren't however and that's why they plan and scheme like they do rather than massing a huge force and wiping out Khorvaire as the demons and devils would.
Logos7
12-07-06, 12:57 PM even without attributuing the planes a mentality that brainwashes people, you can do this simply by saying that's how demons and such are socialized. Thus when the demon comes from shavarath and lays waste to a town of mortal's well isn't this just how you introduce yourself to a strange group of being's? and as he becomes socialized to the material you begin to see the Demon acting his Int in a human way.
Darth Syntax
12-07-06, 01:45 PM Of course, a demon from Shavarath acting in such a way assumes two things.

1) that outsiders have free will and can be 'socialized'

2) that most outsiders have any real concern with the material plane

Outsiders are quite different creatures from mortals, and its rather odd to assume that they think anything like we do. The demon, for example, is driven by an almost reflexive desire to destroy and consume things; its like breathing to them. Also, the ontological nature of outsiders in presumed to be different that that of mortals as outsiders have no mind/body distinction. They are, of necessity, monists although it is still unclear as to what type of monists they are. I have my own theories about this, with some outsiders being Realists (possessing only a material existence), others being Idealists (possessing only a mental existence), and still others being Neutral Monists (being of some third substance which has both material and ideal qualities). What all this really means is that outsiders are very different beings than mortals, and their motivations may well be beyond understanding.

To return to out pet demon here, I think I shall call him Eustace: Eustace is a native of Shavarath, a member of the unending hordes of demons who fight the Eternal War against the Archons and the Devils. The whole of his being is taken up in the conflict, he is one with it. To abandon the Eternal War would be like asking him to chop off his own right arm, so it is safe to assume that anything he does will be out of some desire to further the conflict on Shavarath. This means that the scope of his interactions with the rest of the cosmos is necessarily limited in scope, but that dosen't mean he can't show up on some other plane. Perhaps Eustace has been dispatched by some demonic overlord or other to bring mortals to Shavarath to be used as slaves in the conflict, or perhaps he is after some lost tome of ancient evil from the time of the Rajahs which might aid his cause back home. However Eustace is unlikely to be sent to Eberron (or to come on his own) just for kicks. Killing a few mortals or destroying a town just isn't all that important to him or his masters because the conflict on Shavarath is all-consuming. Indeed, it is entirely possible that Eustace and his ilk are doing more harm to Eberron by staying on Shavarath and fighting than they would by showing up en mass and rampaging across Khorvaire. The Eternal War of Shavarath might well be the ultimate cause of conflict everywhere in the cosmos, and should a peace ever be reached. So by concentrating on the petty world of Eberron, the demons would be weakening their chances to spread conflict indirectly to all of existence.

just a thought
WarlockDa
12-07-06, 06:55 PM Thanks for the ideas everyone.

From what I'm reading, my best course would be:

The Red Hand is being helped by a Demon/Devil in order to gain enough power to reclaim their ancient birthrights to Korvaire, yet unknown their leaders the true motive is that the collected items, tomes, etc are really destined to assist the Demon/Devil in the Eternal war. Once the final peace is collected the Demon/Devil fully plans to abandon the Red Hand to it's fate.

Meanwhile agents of the Rakshasas could be attempting to intervine and get the objects for their own use, or at least disturb the Demon/Devil's plans which may lead them to partially assisting the PCs, ultimately harming the group at some point of course.

While even further in the background Vol gets wind of this and sends her agents into the fray, determined to see if the ancient magic will aid in her experiments with her mark, or at least securing more power for herself.

Ahhh ..... the joy of having multiple layers of evil for the PCs to deal with.

Thanks again guys,...all the above is a huge help!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WarlockDa 12-06-06, 10:15 PM	After two nights I've given up on searching the forums, so I figured I'd try simply asking. How would classic fiends (Pit Fiends, Balors, etc) fit into Eberron? I'm currently writting up a new campaign, using ideas from Red Hand of Doom, but I'm thinking of having the leader being half fiend instead of half dragon. I'm also planning on him being dupped by a fiend, promised power and the ability to reform the ancient goblinoid empire but really merely helping to free the fiend or his master. My only fault thus far is how would I tie traditional fiends in,...would they fall in line with the Rakshasha ?
Charles Phipps 12-06-06, 10:23 PM	The best way to handle these things I've always felt is to stick traditional fiends in the role of being tied to Khyber. The Devils and Demons war against one another underneath the surface of Khovaire in a literal Underworld. The Lords of Dust are suggested to essentially be a bunch of rogues whom operate outside of the traditional power structure for the sleeping Rajahs. The majority are more interested tearing each other apart for Supremacy across every one of the Outer Planes and below the surface.
makeshiftwings 12-06-06, 11:35 PM	The fiends work similarly in my game to Charles' as well. I see the classic fiends, demons and devils, as mostly warring in Shavarath and Khyber, and being very... "biblical", I guess. They literally are incarnations of evil, and spend lots of time trying to tempt mortals and spread havoc because that's just what they do. Their minds and outlooks and desires are very alien to most people, and in general they have little interest in typical Eberronian things like money and politics. This is different than the rakshasa and Lords of Dust, who I see as being much more firmly tied to the material plane and the day to day workings of Eberron. They are much more "human", having more earthly desires like power and conquest, and though they might enjoy messing with people's heads and spreading chaos, they aren't doing it just for the sake of chaos itself like the demons do; instead, they're slowly plotting to take over the world. The Lords of Dust have desires and outlooks similar to normal people... well, if you consider elitist sociopaths normal. They can probably be reasoned with and worked with if they decide to take you seriously.
Charles Phipps 12-06-06, 11:43 PM	Yes, it's fun when you realize that the Lords of Dust are considered crazed fanatics and criminals by the rest of demon society. Their version of the Cult of the Dragon Below. ;-)
aelryinth 12-07-06, 01:00 AM	I'd go the other route. Extraplanar demons and devils are outsiders representing the philosophical concepts of Evil. The rakshasas are native outsiders to Eberron who just represent the native Evils of Eberron...their extraplanar cousins probably look at them as poor cousins at best and sadly misguided fools that can't do the job right at worst. That being said, they'd respect the rajahs for sheer power, if nothing else...but if you assume that every plane has the equivalent of a Dweller in Darkness (and I would), they aren't going to be anymore afraid of the wrath of a Rajah then a Mabarian would be of an invasion from Syriana. I actually rather expect that, because of the prevelance of mortals and how valuable them mortal souls can be to long term goals, they quite enjoy messing around in Eberron and rather think the Rakshasas can't do too much to stop them. And the average Rakshasa is rather weak for a fiend. ===Aelryinth
Darth Syntax 12-07-06, 01:11 AM	Balors and Pit Fiends are listed as natives of Fernia in in the ECS, while many other devils and demons are natives of Shavarath. Yugoloths are from Mabar, and there are a few others scattered about the plains. As to the issue of the pit-fiends in particular: I have been slowly and erratically inventing a place for them on Fernia as the highest caste of a rather unpleasant polity known as the Nine hundred Ninety Nine Empires of Fire. There they function as overlords and infernal bureaucrats, ruling over Ifrit, Salamanders, Azer, and other lawful non-good outsiders of the hot and fiery sort.
starsheep 12-07-06, 01:31 AM	While the Lords of Dust are usually considered to be synonymous with the rakshasas, I think that "traditional" fiends have a place in the organization. For instance, the Explorer's Handbook gives the encounter tables for Ashtakala, and it's almost entirely fiendish. I've always thought of the fiends as representing "elemental evil". I don't mean this in the "Temple of Elemental Evil", Tharizdun way. A fiend represents evil in the same way a fire elemental represents fire (by the same token, celestials represent elemental good). They don't exist to further any kind of temporal goals (such as freeing the rajahs), but only to further evil by spreading fear, violence, etc. This elemental nature is demonstrated by their role in the wars of Shavarath, which, as far as we know, has been occurring since the dawn of time, before Khyber even made the rajahs. So while the bulk of them are spending their time duking it out on Shavarath, a few of them probably chill on Eberron. Some of them are probably sympathetic to the goals of the Lords of Dust, hence their association with them, but I don't think they're universally dedicated to a single cause, like the rakshasa.
makeshiftwings 12-07-06, 01:55 AM	I also use the idea that each plane has a mentality to it, and the longer a creature spends on that plane, the more likely it is to turn against its original nature and adapt the mentality of the plane. So a balor fighting in Shavarath basically thinks about nothing but fighting archons and devils, spreading chaos and evil, etc. If you tried to have a conversation with it about the local sports team or a cake recipe, he would just be unable to concentrate and would keep changing the subject to how awesome evil was and how much the archons and devils suck. But if a balor for some reason ends up spending years on Eberron, he will start to gradually adapt a more "human" mentality. He may start to question whether all that fighting in Shavarath is really important, and might decide to instead take up knitting or bowling. Well, maybe not that far, but you get the idea. Most balors would still be evil to the core, but they would start to become more petty and human, rather than alien and idealistic. This basically extends to the rakshasa and Lords of Dust. They spend all their time on Eberron, and probably view the demons that spend most of their time on the other planes in the same way an average person views a hardcore religious conservative. The outer planes fiends will go around doing any sort of random evil just for the hell of it (no pun intended), whereas the LoD are always trying to further their own goals. So in my games, if I want to have something appear in a town and say something like "Look upon my countenace and despair, ye wretched mortals. Thy doom is at hand," well, that would be an outer planes fiend. If I want to have someone subtly place agents within the government to divert weapons shipments to an army of cultists, then that would be the Lords of Dust.
CarrotColossus 12-07-06, 03:26 AM	I'm with starsheep. Demons and devils are extensions of the planes they live on really and are the embodiment of their alignment. Rakshasas aren't however and that's why they plan and scheme like they do rather than massing a huge force and wiping out Khorvaire as the demons and devils would.
Logos7 12-07-06, 12:57 PM	even without attributuing the planes a mentality that brainwashes people, you can do this simply by saying that's how demons and such are socialized. Thus when the demon comes from shavarath and lays waste to a town of mortal's well isn't this just how you introduce yourself to a strange group of being's? and as he becomes socialized to the material you begin to see the Demon acting his Int in a human way.
Darth Syntax 12-07-06, 01:45 PM	Of course, a demon from Shavarath acting in such a way assumes two things. 1) that outsiders have free will and can be 'socialized' 2) that most outsiders have any real concern with the material plane Outsiders are quite different creatures from mortals, and its rather odd to assume that they think anything like we do. The demon, for example, is driven by an almost reflexive desire to destroy and consume things; its like breathing to them. Also, the ontological nature of outsiders in presumed to be different that that of mortals as outsiders have no mind/body distinction. They are, of necessity, monists although it is still unclear as to what type of monists they are. I have my own theories about this, with some outsiders being Realists (possessing only a material existence), others being Idealists (possessing only a mental existence), and still others being Neutral Monists (being of some third substance which has both material and ideal qualities). What all this really means is that outsiders are very different beings than mortals, and their motivations may well be beyond understanding. To return to out pet demon here, I think I shall call him Eustace: Eustace is a native of Shavarath, a member of the unending hordes of demons who fight the Eternal War against the Archons and the Devils. The whole of his being is taken up in the conflict, he is one with it. To abandon the Eternal War would be like asking him to chop off his own right arm, so it is safe to assume that anything he does will be out of some desire to further the conflict on Shavarath. This means that the scope of his interactions with the rest of the cosmos is necessarily limited in scope, but that dosen't mean he can't show up on some other plane. Perhaps Eustace has been dispatched by some demonic overlord or other to bring mortals to Shavarath to be used as slaves in the conflict, or perhaps he is after some lost tome of ancient evil from the time of the Rajahs which might aid his cause back home. However Eustace is unlikely to be sent to Eberron (or to come on his own) just for kicks. Killing a few mortals or destroying a town just isn't all that important to him or his masters because the conflict on Shavarath is all-consuming. Indeed, it is entirely possible that Eustace and his ilk are doing more harm to Eberron by staying on Shavarath and fighting than they would by showing up en mass and rampaging across Khorvaire. The Eternal War of Shavarath might well be the ultimate cause of conflict everywhere in the cosmos, and should a peace ever be reached. So by concentrating on the petty world of Eberron, the demons would be weakening their chances to spread conflict indirectly to all of existence. just a thought
WarlockDa 12-07-06, 06:55 PM	Thanks for the ideas everyone. From what I'm reading, my best course would be: The Red Hand is being helped by a Demon/Devil in order to gain enough power to reclaim their ancient birthrights to Korvaire, yet unknown their leaders the true motive is that the collected items, tomes, etc are really destined to assist the Demon/Devil in the Eternal war. Once the final peace is collected the Demon/Devil fully plans to abandon the Red Hand to it's fate. Meanwhile agents of the Rakshasas could be attempting to intervine and get the objects for their own use, or at least disturb the Demon/Devil's plans which may lead them to partially assisting the PCs, ultimately harming the group at some point of course. While even further in the background Vol gets wind of this and sends her agents into the fray, determined to see if the ancient magic will aid in her experiments with her mark, or at least securing more power for herself. Ahhh ..... the joy of having multiple layers of evil for the PCs to deal with. Thanks again guys,...all the above is a huge help!