Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonRg6 03-23-05, 02:59 PM	I've seen a couple of posts relating to this in some way. Personally, I don't think Giant Robots and D&D should cross in any way. In my Opinion, that's what d20 Modern's for. Anime is all very well and good, and I'm not opposed to that in any way - just keep it out of the Eberron Campaign setting. Having said that, it is entirely down to personal opinion. Individual DMs may have alternative views.
Charles Phipps 03-23-05, 03:20 PM	I've seen a couple of posts relating to this in some way. Personally, I don't think Giant Robots and D&D should cross in any way. In my Opinion, that's what d20 Modern's for. Anime is all very well and good, and I'm not opposed to that in any way - just keep it out of the Eberron Campaign setting. Having said that, it is entirely down to personal opinion. Individual DMs may have alternative views. Rather silly to play Escaflowne or Magic Knight Rayearth with Modern I think. Exalted has mecha, why not Eberron? Now to try and nip this in the bud. Why not? If people want to play eberron in their home campaigns with giant anime based robots then I sincerely doubt that the end of the world will come. Furthermore, if they want insight....that's what these boards are for.
hiryuu 03-23-05, 03:27 PM	Rather silly to play Escaflowne or Magic Knight Rayearth with Modern I think. Exalted has mecha, why not Eberron? It'd require a massive overhaul of the setting, that's why. Escaflowne and Dragonmech are good examples of a setting that uses them and Dragonmech expects PCs to eventually have them. The problem is that when this type of thaumology or technology becomes available, everyone will want it, and if they can't have it, that's a recipe for war or dead PCs. If everyone does have it, the Last War suddenly becomes much more devastating (Cyre's not gonna be the only wasteland), and it requires an overhaul to every town of decent size. After all, you got to store things that big someplace. Airship thaumology is probably more advanced at that point, too. Again, they'd want to do that to synergize with the fun weapons, which would funnel resources to those airship projects to get them going bigger and better. Not only that, House Cannith just doubled in power. They're the ones who are now manufacturing all this stuff and the weapons made for it.
Charles Phipps 03-23-05, 03:30 PM	It'd require a massive overhaul of the setting, that's why. Escaflowne and Dragonmech are good examples of a setting that uses them and Dragonmech expects PCs to eventually have them. The problem is that when this type of thaumology or technology becomes available, everyone will want it, and if they can't have it, that's a recipe for war or dead PCs. If everyone does have it, the Last War suddenly becomes much more devastating (Cyre's not gonna be the only wasteland), and it requires an overhaul to every town of decent size. After all, you got to store things that big someplace. Airship thaumology is probably more advanced at that point, too. Again, they'd want to do that to synergize with the fun weapons, which would funnel resources to those airship projects to get them going bigger and better. Not only that, House Cannith just doubled in power. They're the ones who are now manufacturing all this stuff and the weapons made for it. Excellent points and exactly what I was hoping to get in my Gundam Thread. It makes also some interesting points about why the PCs may want to stop these machines from being constructed. It benedits the games considerably.
DragonRg6 03-23-05, 03:43 PM	good points. Well, I congratulate those who successfully incorporate Anime bots into their own campaigns. I was really just expressing a rant about our DM... who can't run a D&D game without anime robots. Gets kinda repetetive.
caern.hallatheen 03-23-05, 03:52 PM	good points. Well, I congratulate those who successfully incorporate Anime bots into their own campaigns. I was really just expressing a rant about our DM... who can't run a D&D game without anime robots. Gets kinda repetetive. : ) Well I don't know about that. But they certainly have their place. An ever-curious Merrix d'Cannith refitting a recovered Xen'Drik giant exoskeleton (you know, for disabled giants) with a human-sized control room that somehow falls into the wrong hands. You know, that makes a nice climatic encounter at the very least. Add some international intrigue, with Aundair's spies letting it loose in the middle of Sharn while they plan to use other sordid plans to invade the north of Breland, and you have a pretty interesting situation. But yeah, it'd be kind of depressing to change it so that practically everyone who's anyone has them.
fizzbang 03-24-05, 10:57 AM	I could see how a massive, pilotable construct could fit into Eberron, but I'd definitely want it to be a rarity, rather than a commonplace part of the setting. It could definitely make for a good plot, or even an entire chronicle. Imagine this: one of Cannith's experimental facilities holds a terrifying weapon developed in the last days of the war. The next step up from the Warforged Titan, the "Supreme Tactical Engagement and Eradication Legionaire" is a collossal construct of incredible power, commanded by a pilot riding in a secured compartment in its head. Sadly, such things never stay secret for long, and an adventuring artificer with more skill than sense finds himself at the helm of STEEL. His own reign of terror is shortlived before he draws the attention of larger, more organized forces, and no one is more determined to acquire the creation than the Lord of Blades. Now the party is hired by house Cannith to race the agents of the Lord of Blades and a dozen other groups with their own interests, so they can retrieve the creation. But if they lose that race, house Cannith may rush to reacquire the original schematics, so the heroes can fight STEEL on even footing...
DarkWarriorKarg 03-24-05, 11:17 AM	I could see how a massive, pilotable construct could fit into Eberron, but I'd definitely want it to be a rarity, rather than a commonplace part of the setting. It could definitely make for a good plot, or even an entire chronicle. Imagine this: one of Cannith's experimental facilities holds a terrifying weapon developed in the last days of the war. The next step up from the Warforged Titan, the "Supreme Tactical Engagement and Eradication Legionaire" is a collossal construct of incredible power, commanded by a pilot riding in a secured compartment in its head. Sadly, such things never stay secret for long, and an adventuring artificer with more skill than sense finds himself at the helm of STEEL. His own reign of terror is shortlived before he draws the attention of larger, more organized forces, and no one is more determined to acquire the creation than the Lord of Blades. Now the party is hired by house Cannith to race the agents of the Lord of Blades and a dozen other groups with their own interests, so they can retrieve the creation. But if they lose that race, house Cannith may rush to reacquire the original schematics, so the heroes can fight STEEL on even footing... Perhaps the PCs could use it when: The Terrasque, awakened when House Cannith experimented with a Giant Spell Of Mass Destruction on an abandoned island, attacks Sharn in it's anger. The magical energies amplified it's abilities, granting it Spellfire, making it truly devastating to the magically-enhanced city.
Zalaz Mavi 03-24-05, 11:28 AM	I agree, giant mechanical creatures have no place whatsoever in Eberron... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eberron/eb_WarforgedTitan.jpg
DragonRg6 03-24-05, 11:37 AM	The warforged titan is just a modified Golem. It's neither piloted in the manner of, say, an EVA, or really all that giant. I didn't mean to offend all large mechanical things in Eberron - hell, there are enough. I specifically meant large robot creatures based on those in anime series and controlled by a pilot. and maybe I'm wrong... they seem to be popular.
Zalaz Mavi 03-24-05, 11:59 AM	...they seem to be popular. To be honest, the cynic in me is in no way surprised by this. There are just those gamers who jump from one flavor-of-the-month to the next. I even have a $20 bet with another gamer on when the God of War threads will start appearing. ("Kraitos as Karrnathi Warlord;" EWP: Blades of Chaos; Temple of Pandora in Xen'drik; etc.) I say chalk it up to poverty of imagination and go about your day. There's enough stress in the world without worrying about what the munchkins are doing...
TwinBahamut 03-24-05, 12:15 PM	To be honest, the cynic in me is in no way surprised by this. There are just those gamers who jump from one flavor-of-the-month to the next. I even have a $20 bet with another gamer on when the God of War threads will start appearing. ("Kraitos as Karrnathi Warlord;" EWP: Blades of Chaos; Temple of Pandora in Xen'drik; etc.) I say chalk it up to poverty of imagination and go about your day. There's enough stress in the world without worrying about what the munchkins are doing... No need to get insulting. What does it matter to you what other people find fun, and why do you feel the need to call it "poverty of imagination?" Anyways, you might be seeing some giant robot threads around simply because that sort of thing is more possible and logical in Eberron than it is in Dragonlance, the Forgotten Realms, or Greyhawk. Eberron has more technology than any of those settings, and thus it allows more technology to be introduced in a logical manner through stuff like Dragonshards, House Cannith, magewrights, etc. (Note: By technology, I do mean that kind of thing, since it is under the definition of technology. I would be the last person to put steam engines and telegraphs in Eberron) So, please don't go around trying to ruin our fun as we try to imagine this sort of thing, because this is the first major setting where this is really possible, and some of us are just fans of giant robots.
DragonRg6 03-24-05, 12:17 PM	TwinBahamut makes good points. Have you seen the d20 modern SRD? comes with mecha rules... :P http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd
Tealgorthian 03-24-05, 12:28 PM	I'd just like to say, having played Exalted, and being an Exalted fan actully, just because it's in Exalted, doesnt mean it needs to be in D&D. Exalted is a whole other powerlevel. In D&D, your characters cant sneeze and blow up a city ;p I have thought about introducing an Eva-like plot line for a D&D adventure, just because of the mind-screw involved in Eva, but I never considered mecha the whole time I was doing it. I dont like mecha in a fantasy game for some reason. That said, I would be curious to see how someone statted a mecha.
lukelightning 03-24-05, 12:45 PM	Be careful with the warforged-mecha analogies. Sure, in Eberron there are great big mechanical-looking constructs built for war. However, they are creatures not suits or vehicles. They have their own stats, do not require a pilot, etc. I would say you could make a golem with a space to stay in, but it moves on its own initiative, doing what you tell it to. You don't "pilot" it and move it like a puppet.
Gadriel 03-24-05, 01:58 PM	In my opinion, I think you guys are making to much of a big deal out of this. While I agree that great wyrm dragon sized constructs are very unrealistic, smaller, maybe large sized mech suits are a good posibility. Create a modified suit of armor that increases a character's size to large, complete with the bonuses and whatnot, also grants a +4 enhancement bonus to strength, and maybe give it some sort of ranged weapon, like a ballista. Powerful, sure. But game breaking, not neccesarily. And don't forget that there is already mecha in D & D. What do you think the Apparatus of Kawalish is?
Evil Wizard 03-24-05, 02:36 PM	I was not aware that d20 Modern made it to the SRD, much less the mecha rules. How interesting! :D If you were to include mecha into Eberron, it would have to be a new development, so as not to totally throw off continuity, and in such a campaign it would have to be a situation where only the PCs and their immediate enemies had them. Each robot would be unique and personalized, in other words. If you absolutely needed some giant robot mooks for them to beat on, giant monsters, warforged titans, or some generic lesser grade of robot could easily be invented, though these too should only be in the hands of the villains. If you really want them in your game there's plenty of space to fit them in. Mecha sound like exactly the sort of thing the giants might have left lying around in Xen'drik. It's a staple of the genre, in fact, for people to dig up and/or reverse engineer their giant robots from ancient technology. In Eberron, mecha would likely be Huge suits of power armor formerly worn by the giants; naturally, you'd have to retrofit them with a human-sized cockpit. Hey! There's even a plausible way to keep the robots largely in the hands of the PCs. Maybe they only work for people bearing dragonmarks. Coincidentally, all the PCs have dragonmarks, and may be the only ones in the Houses who have the expertise to pilot them. Naturally, the villains appear to have found a way around this restriction. ;) The best part is that the mecha fans don't even have to stretch the setting to make it work, while the people who think the idea is terminally silly can safely ignore it, since it's grossly non-core. Everybody wins!
Charles Phipps 03-24-05, 04:14 PM	So what your saying is its okay for 20-80 foot tall creatures to duke it out but not war machines with pilots? I see, its all clear now. So who wants to do the first Godzilla in Eberron thread? Seriously though, there's no right way to play D&D. Exalted isn't a "whole nother power level", its presumed that folks at Eberron will play at slightly lower power levels but as Keith said, there's nothing stopping you from breaking out the Epic Handbook and playing your 30th level Aasimar Paladins with Book of Exalted feats. If your players want to journey to Quori and clean the place out, good for them. That's a perfectly valid means of measuring the game, specifically whether you have fun doing it is the ultimate measure.
Kid SixXx 03-24-05, 04:41 PM	So who wants to do the first Godzilla in Eberron thread? Don't scoff. IIRC, there is a back issue of Dragon magazine (the one that had the wuxia conversions, I think) that had a wonderful article on kaiju-style monsters for use in D&D. In the appropriate campaign and at the appropriate level, Eberron can probably house any concept imaginable. I'm slowly accepting that notion.
Greyseed 03-24-05, 05:20 PM	I once had a high level adventure, It involved finding a "Legendary white knight" to stop some evil something or other. In truth it was a huge living suit of "armor". But I think the best fit for a suit or something would be a Symbiote. If I remember correctly, there's no rule that a symbiote can't be bigger than it's host. I had the idea that some sort of warforged-like thing could be waiting in the giant's ruins of xend'rik. A Symbiotic suit of armor with the Living construct sub-type. But then maybe I've gone a bit too far.... :thinks:
Charles Phipps 03-24-05, 06:08 PM	I once had a high level adventure, It involved finding a "Legendary white knight" to stop some evil something or other. In truth it was a huge living suit of "armor". But I think the best fit for a suit or something would be a Symbiote. If I remember correctly, there's no rule that a symbiote can't be bigger than it's host. I had the idea that some sort of warforged-like thing could be waiting in the giant's ruins of xend'rik. A Symbiotic suit of armor with the Living construct sub-type. But then maybe I've gone a bit too far.... :thinks: Go ahead and post that to my thread, we could work on discussing "Cthulhutech" ;-)
Edymnion 03-24-05, 06:09 PM	I think we need to define "giant robot" here before we go much farther. Do you mean Voltron/Megazord sized giant robots, or do you mean "giant" robots, as in Huge sized? We already have the WF Titan, which fits the idea of giant robot exceedingly well. As for the Voltron sized ones? Well, lets not forget those already exist in D&D. The Stone Colossus, the Iron Colossus, and the Flesh Colossus. Epic level Constructs the size of Gigantor and Guymelnuths. Godzilla? We've got the Tarrasque. And I personally use a Kaiju Half-Black-Dragon T-Rex as the ultimate world destroying monster in my homebrew campaign. As for these things in Eberron? I can certainly see someone tranq'ing a kaiju gorilla in Xen'Drik and bringing it to Sharn as a novelty. King Kong is a classic, after all. And we don't know what kind of Warforged the Giants made. There could easily be a 50' tall Warforged laying inactive somewhere in Xen'Drik that could be revived. Remember, this is Eberron. It's very core is made from those great flashy pulp novels and movies. And what is more pulpy than a giant monster or robot tearing things up? I mean, really, how many "Attack of the Giant XXXX" movies did the 1950's crank out, anyway? Now, this isn't something that should be an every day thing in Eberron, not by any stretch of the imagination. But they make for incredible campaign ending encounters.
Tealgorthian 03-24-05, 06:32 PM	Seriously though, there's no right way to play D&D. Exalted isn't a "whole nother power level", its presumed that folks at Eberron will play at slightly lower power levels but as Keith said, there's nothing stopping you from breaking out the Epic Handbook and playing your 30th level Aasimar Paladins with Book of Exalted feats. And you -still- wont match your adverage Solar Exalted :P The two systems just cant be compared. One assumes you have ULTIMATE COSMIC POWERS, the other assumes you are a tiny flea on the face of the earth, working your way up.
RadicalTaoist 03-24-05, 06:37 PM	It's all good, guys. Frankly, the only reason not to include giant robots is realism (any man-piloted robot bigger than Large is not just going to be ridiculous in fuel logistics but also a threat to itself thanks to the laws of physics, unless we're in space so mass and balance aren't an issue) and that's the purview of the DM. Even so, the anime Gasaraki gives a good example of realistic mecha. Besides, just out of sadism, I wouldn't mind including background music in my games and blasting out ES-CA! FLOW-NE! over the surround sound system to deafen my players. :evillaugh:
Charles Phipps 03-24-05, 06:38 PM	It's all good, guys. Frankly, the only reason not to include giant robots is realism (any man-piloted robot bigger than Large is not just going to be ridiculous in fuel logistics but also a threat to itself thanks to the laws of physics, unless we're in space so mass and balance aren't an issue) and that's the purview of the DM. Even so, the anime Gasaraki gives a good example of realistic mecha. Honestly, given they have warforged and yet no guns. I don't think realism is an issue.
Edymnion 03-24-05, 06:52 PM	Honestly, given they have warforged and yet no guns. I don't think realism is an issue.How so? Warforged are just the next step in golem evolution. They're not robots running off of power cells, they're not fueled by chemical reactions, they're just more advanced forms of the magic that animates every iron and clay golem in every other game. Guns are complex chemical reactions that may or may not even follow the same chemical guidelines as our reality. There was reason to build golems, there is no reason to build guns. I fail to see how having warforged and no guns is an issue.
Charles Phipps 03-24-05, 07:07 PM	How so? Warforged are just the next step in golem evolution. They're not robots running off of power cells, they're not fueled by chemical reactions, they're just more advanced forms of the magic that animates every iron and clay golem in every other game. Guns are complex chemical reactions that may or may not even follow the same chemical guidelines as our reality. There was reason to build golems, there is no reason to build guns. I fail to see how having warforged and no guns is an issue. I actually don't know how to respond to that so I won't. Realism isn't an issue in Eberron, suspension of disbelief is.
RadicalTaoist 03-24-05, 07:48 PM	In which case, go ahead and rock with giant robots and don't let realism get in the way of fun D&D! ;)
Roxlimn 03-25-05, 08:38 AM	Eberron Shard Adept. That takes care of the construct "exoskeleton." Giant Size spell from the Complete Arcane. Or even just Polymorph, I imagine. If you Shapechange into a Warforged Titan, is that really functionally different from boarding a huge mecha? Let's not forget that many anime worlds and campaigns have already taken what Eberron is doing to the D&D world. The concept of magic replacing technology and revolutionizing the world in ways similar to and different from the modern world is old hat in anime. We would all do well to take notes and perk up rather than scoff in ignorance. Let's look, even, at both the series Magic Knight Rayearth and the movie Magic Knight Rayearth. The power structure is markedly different but the premise is remarkably the same - a world in which magic is used extensively and widely for everyday purposes. Sure, there are villages that are rural in demeanor, but most of the people are educated anyway, and everyone knows someone who can do magic or make some magic. In this place where magic is technology, The Rune Gods are legends, artifacts of astounding power promised to defend the land from long ago. Adopting the concept to Eberron, we can decide whether the Forged Brothers are good or evil. Let's say they're neither. They're experimental constructs built by the elves in Xen'drik long ago in their war against the Giants in an effort to equalize the odds. The war ended before they could be used, but the Forged Brothers remain created and asleep. Unlike normal mecha, the Forged Brothers are Huge Warforged of varying classes and astounding power. They cannot wake on their own. That is their weakness. They need another to lend them consciousness. While they share consciousness, the two become one - the host is magically absorbed into the Warforged in the manner Druid equipment is absorbed. This individual is neither here nor there, and none of his equipment functions. He assumes all the qualities of the Warforged except for his mental attributes, which he gets to keep. Some Xen'drik drow believe that this is very similar to the way devil possess mortals. There you go. Mecha. Seamless, too. For yet another idea, the Hobgoblins may have developed constructs similar to Warforged of Draconic size and nature. They are not truly sentient, but are Constructs much like Shield Guardians. They function individually, but they can also "house" a spirit in a special receptacle similar to the functions of Magic Jar. While the spirit is housed, he has exclusive control over the Construct and can boost the Construct's natural abilities in specific predetermined ways. Eberron is a remarkably flexibile and permissive setting. If you can't fit the concept in, even heavily modified, you're probably not trying hard enough.