Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 03:20 PM	This is a common complaint that I've heard and actually was exposed to in my thread about converting other characters from other settings to Eberron in People and Places. I've also heard it a lot in the Forgotten Realms setting. Basically, the idea that there being High Level PCs causes the players to somehow be less heroic. I don't personally believe this and never believe this (then again, I favor "over the top" adventures where the world is saved every week by the PCs like Bond films) so I would appreciate some feedback by those who do believe it and why.
law 08-01-05, 03:23 PM	Not realy does it make the less herioc. But large numbers of them make the PCs feel like they are small fries even when they are level 20. In my games the PCs dont care anyway so its not the much of a problem.
makeshiftwings 08-01-05, 03:39 PM	Ah, well since I was the one derailing that other thread... :) First, I think the common complaint isn't high level NPCs in general, but high level good-guy NPCs. Having high level villains and antagonists to the PCs is fine; Eberron does have a few of those. But a world like FR where there are already tons of uber-level good guys means that your PCs, no matter what they do, are ultimately inconsequential, which makes for pretty unheroic stories. Would Lord of the Rings been as much fun if there were fifty other good guy wizards that were three times as powerful as Gandalf that could have just thrown the ring into the fire, or blasted Sauron out of the sky with a few spells? Not really; it was interesting because there weren't many high-level good guys, and they had to rely on the main characters to get most of the work done. Your example, the PCs saving the world like James Bond, is another example. Bond wouldn't be as interesting if there were 400 other secret agents that were 20 levels higher than Bond, who could easily defeat anything that Bond came up against, and were always there to save him every time he screwed up. You'd know there was never any actual threat to the world, because if Bond screwed up, then his superiors would just waltz in and clean up the mess. You'd also wonder why these guys kept sending Bond on these missions to save the world when they could get it done themselves in a tenth of the time with no risk to themselves. And more importantly, Bond just wouldn't be as cool if there were tons of other good guys in the movie that were better, smarter, more charismatic, and had cooler gadgets.
Psionycx 08-01-05, 03:53 PM	It's not so much a question of "high-level NPC's" as it is a question of huge level differentials. For example, in the Forgotten Realms, there are a lot of epic-level NPC's running loose in the setting. This creates a number of problems really. 1) Unless PC's are also very high-level then you have to "dumb down" the high-level NPC's to explain why it is even possible for PC's to ever thwart them without help from other NPC's. This is what I call "Elminister Syndrome". Where the PC's really end up just being grunt labor for Elminster (Khelben Arunsen, the Seven Sisters, etc, etc, etc...). 2) Dumbing down high-level NPC's stretches credibility. If low-level PC's can easily outsmart 29th level lich Szass Tam, then how tough could he really have been in the first place? 3) It makes being high-level "average". It's very hard for players to shine in settings like Forgotten Realms because the setting's embedded NPC's have already loomed large over the landscape. The best you can aspire to is being close to as cool as the NPC's. 4) You can respond by making it easy for PC's to rack up levels, but then you have the credibility problem of why ancient near-immortal NPC's aren't in the 40's and 50's. This is why I think that the level differential should not be so great that PC's can't surmount it. A lot of setting designers give vent to their character fantasies in writing up NPC's, leaving PC's as second class citizens of the setting (Ed Greenwood is a top offender here). When the setting is not littered with ambulatory engines of destruction disguised as NPC's, then that leaves more opportunity for PC's to shine. Do you think Lara Croft is 20 levels lower than NPC's she encounters? Probably not often. PC's should not, in my opinion, be in a position where they are insects compared to NPC's. So far at least, that has not been the case in Eberron. Most notable NPC's are not of a level so high that PC's cannot close the gap and become peers (or betters) of them. Which is as it should be.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 04:05 PM	Ah, well since I was the one derailing that other thread... :) First, I think the common complaint isn't high level NPCs in general, but high level good-guy NPCs. Having high level villains and antagonists to the PCs is fine; Eberron does have a few of those. Good point on there. However, I have a rather lengthy rebuttal at the bottom. But a world like FR where there are already tons of uber-level good guys means that your PCs, no matter what they do, are ultimately inconsequential, which makes for pretty unheroic stories. Would Lord of the Rings been as much fun if there were fifty other good guy wizards that were three times as powerful as Gandalf that could have just thrown the ring into the fire, or blasted Sauron out of the sky with a few spells? Gandalf himself is a godlike figure. There's also Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Radaghast the Brown, the Twin Blue Wizards. Arguably Aragorn, Eowyn, and Faramir are also NPCs. Not really; it was interesting because there weren't many high-level good guys, and they had to rely on the main characters to get most of the work done. Your example, the PCs saving the world like James Bond, is another example. Bond wouldn't be as interesting if there were 400 other secret agents that were 20 levels higher than Bond, who could easily defeat anything that Bond came up against, and were always there to save him every time he screwed up? Not really, because you'd know there was never any actual threat to the world, if Bond screwed up, then his superiors would just waltz in and clean up the mess. And more importantly, Bond just wouldn't be as cool if there were tons of other good guys in the movie that were better, smarter, more charismatic, and more had cooler gadgets than him. In the Ian Flemming books, James was actually number 7 of the 00 agents. That means, of course, there are at least 6 other agents up to his particular number. Part of what I don't understand is the general assumption by any that there's going to be anyone else coming if there is heroism. In Harry Potter's case, his role as the Chosen One is not diminished because in the end...no matter the fact he's a child for most of his conflicts...only he can defeat Voldemort. In the Lord of the Ring's case, it is Frodo alone who is capable of shattering the Ring. Since players' are more likely to want to be Aragorn, only Aragorn can restore the throne of Gondor. It doesn't matter how many levels that Gandalf the Grey has (and one could presume that fighting a Balrog mano a mano, he has an assload), he cannot restore the kingship of Gondor nor can he destroy the Ring. In my campaign, the Draconic Prophecy has my players listed as essentially those whom will possess the power to "unmake the evils of the world and give destruction with doom unto all things dark and vile." This is a quality in story basically that describes 'You guys will be adventurers that will find themselves at the right place and the right time to challenge the great darknesses that menace the world' (in other words, a typical adventurer's life). I also do my best to try and incorporate the character's backstories into the greater scheme of the campaign for some intregal role to things. The former second in command of the Lord of Blades that is destined to become King of the Warforged (if he survives), the unknowing possessor of a new Dragonmark that will replace the Mark of Death, and similiar fairly epic things. These things are fairly undisturbed by whether or not the person is a talented wizard or the greatest warrior on Eberron. A 30th level Ultimate Supreme MasterTM Monk of Kung Fu that sits on a mountain is an archetypical character that the players can learn from. It's part of the problem of D&D I think that they don't have much in the way of importance for mentor figures. The players earn their knowledge through their own deeds and there's no practical benefit to having a teacher in 3,5 edition. Nevertheless, levels represent accumulated knowledge and if a character doesn't have a certain level of knowledge then they aren't really that great are they? I can respect that Keith has set up a different level of scale than most of the other worlds, which is entirely permissable. Having 13th level being world shakingly powerful is entirely appropriate. The matter is instead a question of who and how many levels of such are worthwhile. On a related issue, there's some strong benefits to a sense of comraderie and justice in my campaigns over the PCs having fellows they can turn to. Yes, the Party being the Lone heroes that will overthrow the darkness of the universe is a theme in my campaign. However, previous ones have benefitted from the acknowledgement of prestige that comes from an order the PCs might belong to. Shockingly, some people ENJOY being part of the many. In this case, I use the example of the Jedi Knighthood of the Prequels, The Conclave of Dragonlance, and the Knights of King Arthur. In the Prequels case, the PCs find many interesting and intriguing plotlines come from their commanding officers in the Jedi and may or may not want to sit on the "throne" that would drastically increase their workload while curtailing their freedom. Yet, the players don't think their fellow Jedi can't back up their wisdom or position either. I'm all for moderation really. I don't think that Eberron should be like Forgotten Realms where there is an Archmage in every village and Elminster isn't the GROSS exception but the rule. I do think there's plenty of room for high level NPCs though and also plenty of other heroes in Eberron other than the party. It's just the others are like the Knights of Solamnia at the Tower or the Ninjas in You Only Live Twice, they're really backup that the PCs lead in to MAKE stories like the confrontation with Ssass tam more epic and handle the "mop up work." 2) Dumbing down high-level NPC's stretches credibility. If low-level PC's can easily outsmart 29th level lich Szass Tam, then how tough could he really have been in the first place? Largely, I think its' a method of handling personality. Intelligence and Wisdom are not going to effect people's deliberate choices due to Ego or their own malicious aims that tend to be grossly grandiose for villains. I tend to think of the PCs as Batman if they ARE underpowered (which they aren't necessarily), despite being grossly less strong than their opponents they nevertheless have the courage and cunning to overthrow even gods.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-01-05, 04:17 PM	A rather simplistic view that came to me a few days ago: 1) Standard Marvel Universe= Thousands of super beings= Forgotten realms 2) Ultimates Universe= Hundreds of super beings=Eberron
Psionycx 08-01-05, 04:25 PM	If you've ever watched the James Bond movies (or read the books), Bond is noticeably better at what he does even than the other "00's". Part of his distinctiveness is that "nobody does it better". Likewise, I don't believe in the "sucking up to mentor" school of thought. Heroes are supposed to stand out. Not be one of a crowd. An action hero is not one of a mulititude of guys or gals that can do the same things. They're supposed to be those special people you bring in when nobody else can get the job done. Uber-NPC's shoot that to pieces, basically making the setting all about the fantasies of the game designers and leaving the player's the "honor" of being able to gaze worshipfully at Elminister and how much of an honor it is to be able to take his trash out for him. Like I said, it's a question of the level differential and not the levels themselves.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 04:37 PM	Good analogy there. Like I said, it's a question of the level differential and not the levels themselves. Well, starting at a lower level and working your way up is part of the importance of the setting. I do note that I definietly would not want players totally dwarfed but if they AREN'T playing essentially Kenshin or Batman (I am at the start, one of the best in the world) then it's not necessarily part of the plot. I don't think you need to suck up to a higher level because unlike what Ed Greenwood and Gary Jackson preaches, players are not constantly in need of smacking down. High level NPCs will respect anyone whom chooses to make the fight against evil their lifespan. Remember, most high level NPCs are not adventurers. Most are bookworms or politicians or have jobs. Largely this question was inspired by one of my players "Geesus, are there any people in this world who give a damn for their fellow man? With all the damage and horrors out here, where are the heroes? This can't be like Cyberpunk where we're the only ones, cause if it is, I'm done." I obviously didn't want my players being 'done.' So I'm accenting the Gatekeepers, Wardens, Knights of Thrane, and positive aspectsof the Arcane Congress.
Psionycx 08-01-05, 04:52 PM	You see, and that is where we differ in viewpoint. I thing the PC's should be Batman, Lara Croft, James Bond, etc... That doesn't mean that they have to start out at high-level (obviously Bruce, Lara and James were novices at one time). But the ultimate goal is, in my opinion, to become the superhero. Not the super minion. It's The Incredibles theory: If everyone is special, then nobody is.
Ricohard_Draconis 08-01-05, 04:58 PM	There is good even staying low leveled, you don't need high leveled NPCs to show theres still good in the world. the trust and the dark lanterns are their keeping the piece. the gatekeepers don't have to be above 5th level each. i think my problem with it is the idea that because someone is important they automatically have to be high level. I like the fact that very few important NPC's are that high level. I like that the highest level NPC's in Sharn are such as the playwright, a woman who never leaves her pedistal and a baker. For me King Boranel is a great leader and warrior, that doesn't mean he's more than a level 5 fighter, sure if my players decide to come up against him then he might change but really theres no need for an NPC to have more than six levels unless you want them to be able to do something. And even then i would be more likely to give them a very specialised Eldritch machine type gizmo unless its impractical.
makeshiftwings 08-01-05, 05:15 PM	Gandalf himself is a godlike figure. There's also Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Radaghast the Brown, the Twin Blue Wizards. Arguably Aragorn, Eowyn, and Faramir are also NPCs. Actually, using movies and books are probably bad examples... Well, I meant that all of these characters were more or less main characters, or "PCs" in the books, so it doesn't matter if they're high level. It's a whole different ballgame if you're playing d&d, and you tell your characters they have to be the four hobbits, but you're going to stick them in a party with NPCs Gandalf, Aragorn, and Legolas, and you describe every combat with those three doing the crazy tricks from the movies and Gandalf deciding what everyone should do, while your PCs mostly get knocked unconscious or flee. Definitely not fun. In the Ian Flemming books, James was actually number 7 of the 00 agents. That means, of course, there are at least 6 other agents up to his particular number. I admittedly don't know that much about Bond, but still, in the movies and such that I've seen, it seems like Bond is supposed to be pretty special. Having a few more powerful good guys isn't so bad, but having thousands of them dilutes the image of the main character. Part of what I don't understand is the general assumption by any that there's going to be anyone else coming if there is heroism. In Harry Potter's case, his role as the Chosen One is not diminished because in the end... But Harry Potter, at least from what I've read, is very powerful, definitely not a 3rd level mage among 40th levels. He's more like a 12th among 15ths, and gaining fast. Also, "you are the chosen one" is something that not all DMs want to use. It is one way to avoid the question "Why doesn't Elminster just do this himself", but players will get tired of you answering every question of that type with "Well, you're the chosen one." It still doesn't completely solve the problem; if you're the chosen one who's going to save the world, and a whole bunch of uber-powerful good guys are on your side, then by all rights they should be watching your back the whole time, just like the LotR crew did with Frodo. Of course you can design adventures where all the uber good guys get cut out at some point, again like Frodo, but if you keep doing this over and over, it becomes questionable. If Gandalf died like twelve times in LotR, it would have been really obvious that Tolkein was really scraping for ideas on how to keep the hobbits in situations where they had to fend for themselves. A 30th level Ultimate Supreme MasterTM Monk of Kung Fu that sits on a mountain is an archetypical character that the players can learn from. Well, that seems ok, but most people with PC classes tend to be adventurers, and it's going to stretch the credibility of your world if for some reason all the 30th level epics spend all day sitting on top of mountains and won't life a finger to save the world when armageddon comes every week. Having these people as adversaries or strange neutral parties seems ok, but it doesn't work FR-style, where all those epic NPCs are heroes from novels that are also out to adventure and save the world. On a related issue, there's some strong benefits to a sense of comraderie and justice in my campaigns over the PCs having fellows they can turn to. ... Well, there's not really any reason these guys can't be only moderately high in level. Using the Jedi as an example, Yoda and Obi Wan are obviously more powerful than Luke, but not 35 levels more powerful. Both of them have pretty decent Telekinesis and a few other spells, but they're both also becoming old and fragile (well, barring the new trilogy's super-speed-yoda, which seemed a little ridiculous). But there's nowhere near the gulf of difference between Luke and Yoda as there is between a 5th level mage and a 40th level archmage like in dnd. I'm all for moderation really. I don't think that Eberron should be like Forgotten Realms where there is an Archmage in every village and Elminster isn't the GROSS exception but the rule. I do think there's plenty of room for high level NPCs though and also plenty of other heroes in Eberron other than the party. It's just the others are like the Knights of Solamnia at the Tower or the Ninjas in You Only Live Twice, they're really backup that the PCs lead in to MAKE stories like the confrontation with Ssass tam more epic and handle the "mop up work." This I agree with... it's mostly FR that I have a problem with; it's clearly a case of authors' munchkin fantasies gone awry. The Knights of Solamnia weren't a bunch of 30th level epic paladins; they were mid level but had strength in numbers, and they usually had their hands full fighting wars and such. If they were all 30th level epic paladins and just spent all day smoking pipes and saving the characters when they are in trouble, it would get boring fast.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 05:18 PM	For me King Boranel is a great leader and warrior, that doesn't mean he's more than a level 5 fighter, sure if my players decide to come up against him then he might change but really theres no need for an NPC to have more than six levels unless you want them to be able to do something. And even then i would be more likely to give them a very specialised Eldritch machine type gizmo unless its impractical. On this end I agree with you. There's no need for a King Azoun figure like him to be 20th level, it's much more realistic even were he a veteran soldier to have a much lower stat. I always found the 20th level he was supposed to possess to be horrifically out of place, as if he had Arthurian level grandeur that we'd just never heard about. Part of the problem I'm seeing is the potential for long term play being discarded honestly speaking. Setting the bar prematurely low means that it becomes increasingly ridiculous that there are Npcs that the players can deal with as peers. Indiana Jones has Rene Belloq in the first movie after all. While certainly PCs can go face the Lords of Dust and other people who were previously unassailable, it starts to make the game setting less enjoyable really if they walk around as gods amongst men with no one their equal personally. This I agree with... it's mostly FR that I have a problem with; it's clearly a case of authors' munchkin fantasies gone awry. The Knights of Solamnia weren't a bunch of 30th level epic paladins; they were mid level but had strength in numbers, and they usually had their hands full fighting wars and such. If they were all 30th level epic paladins and just spent all day smoking pipes and saving the characters when they are in trouble, it would get boring fast. I think we're probably closer than we think on this end. I'm largely defending the existence of "Yoda" and "merlin" like characters rather than the general assumption that all of them must be so ungawdly powerful that it's not even fathomable the idea of facing them. I like the idea that 13th level is very powerful. I do however also like the idea that there are higher level beings out there but these are unique and special and part of the lore of the land. I guess, a real question comes down to it, should there be Level Caps at some point for PCs and/or NPCs?
treehouse916 08-01-05, 05:27 PM	I agree with Charles Phipps. One important element for characters is to see how much they've grown over the adventures. Time and time again, my players have told me that their very favorite part of D&D is leveling up. That's because they get to see the fruits of their labor. If you start them off as the best of the best at very low levels, you are robbing them of the joy that goes with actually becoming the best of the best. That said, I don't think that there should be any friendly NPCs past a certain level (somewhere between 11th and 13th, and these should be truly remarkable, unique individuals). And the point of those NPCs isn't to derail adventures and steal the spotlight, but to be a benchmark for the PCs' power. If Argos Tindlefire, master of the Twelve, is a 12th level wizard, one day the PC wizard can boast "I've surpassed even Argos Tindlefire in power!" The problem with Elminster is that a PC wizard simply can't surpass Elminster in power. That's just not fun.
Psionycx 08-01-05, 05:37 PM	A large part of the problem, historically, is that NPC's do not remain static while the PC's advance. Indeed, the Forgotten Realms embodies this philosophy, as their signature characters have gotten more ridiculously twinkish every single time they get updated. I remember the halycon days when Elminister was just a 500 year-old 26th level magic user with some psionic powers thrown in. Now's he immortal, has a list of class levels as long as a displacer beasts tentacle and a whole list of special super powers just in case the regular class abilities he has somehow aren't good enough. The same thing was done to all the Realms NPC's. I am not saying that the PC's have to be the highest level characters around. But part of the drama between Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarty was that they were peers. There's something almost condescending, insulting, about the villain who is so utterly superior that the heroes can only beat them because the villain had a bout of willful stupidity that made it possible. Look at the Tomb Raider movie. Lara Croft's adversary was mst definitely not superior to her in ability. But he had a powerful organization, lots of flunkies and plenty of resources to throw challenges her way. It's exactly the same in James Bond's stories. The single omnipotent dark lord is a staple of Tolkeinian fantasy, so there is frequently a trend in D&D that the bad guy has to be equally godlike. But even then, as already noted, the heroes were themselves also iconic, not average members of their peer group. There weren't a bunch of other Aragorn's or Gandalf's lined up behind them ready to step in and replace them if they got pulped. Part of the notion of Eberron as a being more like modern action-adventure rather than traditionalist fantasy role-playing is the idea that the PC's are special, not average.
makeshiftwings 08-01-05, 05:48 PM	I think we're probably closer than we think on this end. I'm largely defending the existence of "Yoda" and "merlin" like characters rather than the general assumption that all of them must be so ungawdly powerful that it's not even fathomable the idea of facing them. I like the idea that 13th level is very powerful. I do however also like the idea that there are higher level beings out there but these are unique and special and part of the lore of the land. I guess, a real question comes down to it, should there be Level Caps at some point for PCs and/or NPCs? You might be right; I was initially turned off by your idea of importing Elminster, who in my mind is the most munchkiny "let's see how many feats and classes we can pile on this guy" NPC I've ever seen. Yoda is fine, and Merlin is fine, because both of them have weaknesses and pretty viable limits to their power. Niether of them can cause the whole world to be sucked into an interplanar black hole with the wave of a hand like Elminster and half the NPCs in FR could. But I do think in a game, it's important to at least let the PCs feel it's possible to some day be a better Jedi than Yoda, or a better wizard than Merlin. In FR, it's really not possible to be a better wizard than Elminster unless you play the same campaign for like a year, assuming your DM even wants to keep playing with the same characters up to level 40 (with the 120% XP penalty that Elminster takes for multiclassing of course.... shouldn't he be LOSING xp every time he kills something? ;) ), and even then, he's going to have to make up a bunch of house-rules to let you gain similar templates like Chosen of Mystra that allow you to also be immortal, weild epic spell-like abilities at will, etc. In the end, I guess it really depends on what the DM does with these characters. I've DM'd FR games, and I just try to ignore Elminster and set the adventures in places where uber NPCs wouldn't be paying much attention. But if you're going to ignore all these uber-level epic NPCs, then why fill up half a campaign sourcebook with stats for them all?
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 05:50 PM	I agree with Treehouse in regards to pretty much everything he's said. On the other hand, I think there's a significant benefit to NPCs who DO level up in power. Obviously, certain characters are going to be more inclined to do this than others. If the PCs have an archrival that they are not particularly inclined to kill or gets away, then his leveling up with them is a nice way of creating an enemy that will be as functionally dangerous as he was at the end as in the beginning. One of our better villains was a power hungry party HENCHMEN who learned all he could from the PCs then continued to menace them down the road even into epic levels. There is definitely the fact that certain characters should reach a plateau in their learning and they cannot advance further past that point. Par Salian was important in the journey of Raistlin Majere because the very powerful wizard became insignificant to his power yet he was still an important influence on his life. I also think characters like Elminster really don't matter in terms of level. Elminster is "The most powerful Wizard in the world" (and while that may not be strictly true, it might as well be). Depending on how you would run forgotten Realms Elminster could be 16th level, 20th, or 26th. Much like Yoda, he's measured by who he's above rather than who he is. Honestly, the status of his power is almost unimportant because the character's main point is that he's supposed to be a character the Pcs can relate to because he's a former adventurer and has lived a LONG LONG time plus have an encyclopediac knowledge of everything. You KNOW Yoda knows what he's talking about because he's 900, ditto El. Much as someone mentioned with Drizzt, my problem with El has been people's MISUSE of him.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-01-05, 05:52 PM	This is a common complaint that I've heard and actually was exposed to in my thread about converting other characters from other settings to Eberron in People and Places. I've also heard it a lot in the Forgotten Realms setting. Basically, the idea that there being High Level PCs causes the players to somehow be less heroic. I don't personally believe this and never believe this (then again, I favor "over the top" adventures where the world is saved every week by the PCs like Bond films) so I would appreciate some feedback by those who do believe it and why. Well, if your PCs are going to save the world every week, why don't they have James Bond do it? High-level good-aligned PCs are, IMO, a problem with a setting. Forgotten Realms amplifies the problem through the flavor of the novels and the types of adventures you often see in it. If you take a look at a character like Khelben, his stats just aren't accurate. He's not just a mage, he's also an administrator (he was a Lord of Waterdeep and heads the Moonstars) and spymaster, and he knows everything there is to know about the planes, magic items, history, has access to gobs of spells the PCs will never know (like Elminster's Evasion, a horribly munchkin spell), etc. Most of these things are beyond the abilities of PCs to ever acquire, even if they reach his level. After all, they're too busy adventuring to do that kind of stuff. And if that's bad, Elminster's worse. At least Khelben makes mistakes on occassion! So, how is this a problem when it comes to adventures? At the end of some adventure, the PCs have to solve a magical mystery, play with artifacts, save the world and incidentally fight some really powerful priestess and "some other stuff". I see no reason why the PCs should do all that. As soon as they discover the world is about to end, they speak the rhyme of the Chosen and tell them to do the job. (Their knowledge of magic is quite high ... they're not likely to screw it up. And Elminster's excuse for why he won't go after Szass Tam, etc, doesn't apply. The world is about to end, so Elminster can die whether he does the job or not.). Gandalf himself is a godlike figure. There's also Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Radaghast the Brown, the Twin Blue Wizards. Arguably Aragorn, Eowyn, and Faramir are also NPCs. Other than Gandalf (who has some restrictions and has few destructive spells - he's more like a contact who occasionally adventures) the others don't help out much. Let's see - Elrond doesn't leave Rivendell. Galadriel doesn't leave her kingdom. Glorfindel is a deus ex machina (there's no way Aragorn could take on all those ringwraiths by himself, although he did fend them off sometimes), Radaghast is lost in nature, the Blue Wizards failed and who knows what they're doing... Generally, I see Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli as PCs, with the halflings being nearly useless. When Frodo and Sam have to do something important, that occurs after they've been separated from the Fellowship. The other two haflings were also separated from the Fellowship when they did something important, other than when Pippin looked into the palantir. Other than that, they fade into the background like the other NPCs. Radaghast the Brown, the Twin Blue Wizards. Arguably Aragorn, Eowyn, and Faramir are also NPCs. In my campaign, the Draconic Prophecy has my players listed as essentially those whom will possess the power to "unmake the evils of the world and give destruction with doom unto all things dark and vile." And I note you (and your players) are part of that large group of people who aren't bothered as much by uber-NPCs. I'm part of the large group that doesn't like them. Our play styles are different. I would hate it if I were in such a campaign - being called the One Chosen by Prophecy is a good way of getting me to run. Remember, most high level NPCs are not adventurers. Ther'es still a surplus of those guys in the Realms, however. The higher level good PCs in Eberron generally don't adventure - they're kings, or warlords, or they tinker with magic items in their tower, or they're too old to adventure any more, or they're well known, etc. While certainly PCs can go face the Lords of Dust and other people who were previously unassailable, it starts to make the game setting less enjoyable really if they walk around as gods amongst men with no one their equal personally. Villainous NPCs are supposed to gain levels, too. The Lord of Blades isn't going to be 12th-level when the PCs are 20th-level. He might not have 11 levels on them (assuming you started at 1st-level) but he's still going to be a threat. Him and his followers. (I would presume he still has some high-level bodyguards by that point. Even though they're probably not of the PCs levels, they're a threat in a group.) Meanwhile, that little girl priestess who loses power away from her temple is still going to be stuck in her temple and won't be doing the PC's job for them.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 07:11 PM	Well, if your PCs are going to save the world every week, why don't they have James Bond do it? High-level good-aligned PCs are, IMO, a problem with a setting. Forgotten Realms amplifies the problem through the flavor of the novels and the types of adventures you often see in it. I'm less inclined to have this sort of problem personally because High Level Good NPCs really don't make a bit of difference in the long run compared to PCs. Partly because I have house rules on overbearing and combined fire. Overbearing rule: aka the Dog Piling Rule is where the level of the attacker goes up for every person jumping in on an opponent. A 20th level fighting 20 1st levels trying to trample him down is a good example of a fair fight. Combined Fire: aka the Shooting Gallery Rule lowers the AC of a person by one for every person firing at him with missle weapons. Hence, even Elminster goes out in a hail of arrows. So, how is this a problem when it comes to adventures? At the end of some adventure, the PCs have to solve a magical mystery, play with artifacts, save the world and incidentally fight some really powerful priestess and "some other stuff". I see no reason why the PCs should do all that. As soon as they discover the world is about to end, they speak the rhyme of the Chosen and tell them to do the job. (Their knowledge of magic is quite high ... they're not likely to screw it up. And Elminster's excuse for why he won't go after Szass Tam, etc, doesn't apply. The world is about to end, so Elminster can die whether he does the job or not.). As Ed Greenwood in his chats explains, Elminster is both a coward and insane. He's "retired" and that means basically that he considers Mystra can go **** herself with missions for him. Literally, when it comes to saving the world or risking his own hide...Elminster will prefer to hide under a rock and hope it comes out for the better. That is, again, if he's aware of what's going on. Let's see - Elrond doesn't leave Rivendell. Galadriel doesn't leave her kingdom. Glorfindel is a deus ex machina (there's no way Aragorn could take on all those ringwraiths by himself, although he did fend them off sometimes), Radaghast is lost in nature, the Blue Wizards failed and who knows what they're doing... This is another issue that I think is problematic. The assumption that High Level NPCs would "adventure." I always hated the treatment that adventurers was a class. There is no "adventurer's guild" or large scale groupings of PCs. There are knighthoods, magic users guilds, and secret societies or resistances...there are no "Justice Leagues." I admit, this is where I break from cannon but the best way to become a high level wizard is to get a bunch of books, a tower, a lab, and read for twenty years without interruption. Ditto clerics. A 13th level Cleric might have done some wandering preaching in his time and miracle working but he's never picked up the mace to smite the forces of darkness. The leaders of Druid Cells are raised to be druids, administer, and never once shall do anything interesting yet possess mighty magic. The only people who basically NEED to adventure are warriors and rogues and there's just as likely to be a swordmaster like Iagyu Jubei who never fought a man in his life but nevertheless practiced the Way of the Kensai. PCs are Heroes, which is not something you put on a resume. It's freakishly weird to have a warrior, a wizard, a cleric, and a thief team up. It's BIZARRE to see wizards use their spells for anything other than self advancement as much as it is a thief. It's ODD to see a priest swing a mace in the name of God. Ask the "Nine" what they are and Boromir will say he's a General, Aragorn will say he's a woodsman, Gimli is a miner, Samwise a gardener, Leogolas is a guardsman for his majesty, Pippin and Merry are independently wealthy local aristocrats, and Frodo was considering taking up authorship. (okay, the Nine is a bad example since they're all professional warriors but the prinicple above is the same). It's by circumstance that these losers have left their role in society to become oddball heroes of their world. Certainly, any high level NPCs that WERE heroes of old have probably since retired. And I note you (and your players) are part of that large group of people who aren't bothered as much by uber-NPCs. I'm part of the large group that doesn't like them. Our play styles are different. I would hate it if I were in such a campaign - being called the One Chosen by Prophecy is a good way of getting me to run. Why's that? One would think it's a rare person who isn't chosen by something greater who 'adventures' Ther'es still a surplus of those guys in the Realms, however. The higher level good PCs in Eberron generally don't adventure - they're kings, or warlords, or they tinker with magic items in their tower, or they're too old to adventure any more, or they're well known, etc. I never in my life thought they did. Villainous NPCs are supposed to gain levels, too. The Lord of Blades isn't going to be 12th-level when the PCs are 20th-level. He might not have 11 levels on them (assuming you started at 1st-level) but he's still going to be a threat. Him and his followers. (I would presume he still has some high-level bodyguards by that point. Even though they're probably not of the PCs levels, they're a threat in a group.) Meanwhile, that little girl priestess who loses power away from her temple is still going to be stuck in her temple and won't be doing the PC's job for them. Noted and agreed with.
Psionycx 08-01-05, 07:16 PM	Honestly, the status of his power is almost unimportant because the character's main point is that he's supposed to be a character the Pcs can relate to because he's a former adventurer and has lived a LONG LONG time plus have an encyclopediac knowledge of everything. You KNOW Yoda knows what he's talking about because he's 900, ditto El. But when you look at Elminster's twink backstory he never really was "just an adventurer". He's had a goddess-given superior destiny from the beginning. And because he, and the rest of the epic NPC's of Faerun are so prolific and so twinked out, it feels almost pointless to be a hero there. I mean, if your PC's fail to defeat Manshoon's latest evil plot, does that mean that (*GASP*) Elminster is going to have to turn off that rerun of Charmed he was watching, get up off the couch, put on his hat, teleport off somewhere and go onload 9th level spells on some loser's head for a few rounds? No! The worshippers of power declare. The epic villains of the Realms mean that things will never be that easy. Great! More twinks to remind PC's of what a bunch of specks they are. I honestly don't know why anyone even bothers to play wizards in FR for example. Since everyone and their grandmother has 20+ levels in the class being a non-epic wizard is like being a gas station attendent. The bouncers in any of the "cool" taverns in Waterdeep won't even let you in the door unless you're there to serve drinks. Now, note one of the essential rules of heroism: they do it because there is nobody else to do it but them! Batman doesn't become Batman because there are lots of other Batmen flitting around and a career in Batmanning looks like fun and excitement. He becomes a hero because a hero was needed, and nobody else was stepping up to the plate. He becomes a super hero because regular folks like the police just cannot do what needs to be done to stop the kinds of threats that need to be stopped. The worshipful inferiority complex, "we can't outshine the real movers and shakers of the setting", is a fun killer in my opinion. It's fine if you're just a classic dungeon crawler and your goal is to going around mugging monsters for their money. But if your goal is action/adventure then PC's need to be the ones in the spotlight, not sitting worshipfully at the feat of their masters.
makeshiftwings 08-01-05, 07:29 PM	As Ed Greenwood in his chats explains, Elminster is both a coward and insane. He's "retired" and that means basically that he considers Mystra can go **** herself with missions for him. Literally, when it comes to saving the world or risking his own hide...Elminster will prefer to hide under a rock and hope it comes out for the better. That is, again, if he's aware of what's going on. I haven't read the more recent Elminster stuff, so maybe Greenwood's changed his stance, probably because people have complained about the Elminster Problem so much that he's needed to come up with an excuse. But nowhere in any of the FR novels I've read or in the FR rule books does it say that Elminster is a coward or insane. He is portrayed as the ultimate wizard, brilliant, all-powerful, able to do anything. He's already saved the world fifty times and is a master of destructive combat magic; there's nothing there that paints him as a coward. This is another issue that I think is problematic. The assumption that High Level NPCs would "adventure." I always hated the treatment that adventurers was a class. There is no "adventurer's guild" or large scale groupings of PCs. There are knighthoods, magic users guilds, and secret societies or resistances...there are no "Justice Leagues." I admit, this is where I break from cannon but the best way to become a high level wizard is to get a bunch of books, a tower, a lab, and read for twenty years without interruption. Ditto clerics. A 13th level Cleric might have done some wandering preaching in his time and miracle working but he's never picked up the mace to smite the forces of darkness. The leaders of Druid Cells are raised to be druids, administer, and never once shall do anything interesting yet possess mighty magic. That doesn't really mesh well with the PC classes though. They are all based around combat, exploring, and adventuring. Clerics have high attack bonuses, weapon proficiencies, wear heavy armor, and tons of combat magic. They're walking divine tanks. How would someone who spends all day sitting in the temple reading bibles turn into this kind of warrior? He wouldn't; I agree with Eberron's take on it: most of the devout priests are Experts or low level Adepts. They are devout and can cast some magic, but they're not war machines. It's similar with wizards: most of their spells are combat-oriented. Someone who sits in a tower reading books all day is going to be an Expert with points in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana, with a few levels of wizard or magewright. Only someone who puts in tremendous dedication to being a deadly engine of magical destruction is going to become a 20th level wizard.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 07:32 PM	But when you look at Elminster's twink backstory he never really was "just an adventurer". He's had a goddess-given superior destiny from the beginning. Yeah and my player character is actually carrying the soul of Eberron inside him that means the Warforged race actually have the souls of the ancient Giants in him and he will eventually awaken them to ressurection. He's also, again, one of the destined champions that in the first game 'season' alone destroy the Lord of Blades and prevent Vol's rise to power. Part of the appeal of Forgotten Realms is the fact that Everyone is the Favorite of Some god or another and the whole place is like "Clash of the Titans" with moves and counter moves. And because he, and the rest of the epic NPC's of Faerun are so prolific and so twinked out, it feels almost pointless to be a hero there. In retrospect, I'm starting to see why people thought Eberron was a breath of fresh air. I'm also disturbed to see that apparently the worst DMs on the planet were administering people's Toril games. mean, if your PC's fail to defeat Manshoon's latest evil plot, does that mean that (*GASP*) Elminster is going to have to turn off that rerun of Charmed he was watching, get up off the couch, put on his hat, teleport off somewhere and go onload 9th level spells on some loser's head for a few rounds? No, it probably means the world is going to be destroyed or the Dales conquered or the kingdom burning. Elminster and the other Chosen are mostly either retired or Kings. They will not lift a finger to help anyone outside their sphere or purview because that's what kings and nobles do. Besides, no matter how powerful Elminster is, the strength of a single magius is neglible on fields of battle and heroism. No! The worshippers of power declare. The epic villains of the Realms mean that things will never be that easy. In a star wars game during the Prequels I'd hate to see how you think the Jedi would deal with the Separatists. "Yoda will deal with their armies." Great! More twinks to remind PC's of what a bunch of specks they are. I honestly don't know why anyone even bothers to play wizards in FR for example. Since everyone and their grandmother has 20+ levels in the class being a non-epic wizard is like being a gas station attendent. The bouncers in any of the "cool" taverns in Waterdeep won't even let you in the door unless you're there to serve drinks. My PCs were always thinking how incredibly cool the idea of Magocracys like Haruula and Thay were and how if there were wizards in rea life, they would gravitate to ruling positions. Now, note one of the essential rules of heroism: they do it because there is nobody else to do it but them! Duh. Batman doesn't become Batman because there are lots of other Batmen flitting around and a career in Batmanning looks like fun and excitement. He becomes a hero because a hero was needed, and nobody else was stepping up to the plate. He becomes a super hero because regular folks like the police just cannot do what needs to be done to stop the kinds of threats that need to be stopped. Batman is the guardian of Gotham City. Do you know what that means? Superman is not guarding Gotham City nor is anyone else. Batman and other people occasionally join into the Justice League because they can occasionally join together to fight evil (which is more than the chosen ever do). Does that stop every single other hero from Blue Beatle to Booster Gold from saving the world from destruction whenever it happened? Would the world be any less dead if they failed because Superman didn't know, wasn't there, or couldn't do it at the time? No. The worshipful inferiority complex, "we can't outshine the real movers and shakers of the setting", is a fun killer in my opinion. It's fine if you're just a classic dungeon crawler and your goal is to going around mugging monsters for their money. But if your goal is action/adventure then PC's need to be the ones in the spotlight, not sitting worshipfully at the feat of their masters. Level is a measure of skill, not deed. In Forgotten Realms if a bunch of 8th level people steal the Stone of Whatchamigger and tear down the Flying Citadel filled with a 1000 36th level Archwizards then that doesn't make their accomplishment any less grand.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 07:35 PM	I haven't read the more recent Elminster stuff, so maybe Greenwood's changed his stance, probably because people have complained about the Elminster Problem so much that he's needed to come up with an excuse. But nowhere in any of the FR novels I've read or in the FR rule books does it say that Elminster is a coward or insane. He is portrayed as the ultimate wizard, brilliant, all-powerful, able to do anything. He's already saved the world fifty times and is a master of destructive combat magic; there's nothing there that paints him as a coward. You are both right in some places here and wrong. Ed Greenwood has forwarded since the original Dragon magazine appearences of Elminster that in addition to being a character of humor value (the fact he could make references to Earth pop culture was a actual stated portion of hi abilities) was also tragic. His second appearence (which I read from the Dragon archives) has Elminster talking to corpses and in this update of his stat basically saying too many dead friends have made him brain fried. I will admit, Toril portrays him rarely as a coward but it often does portray him as a person who will do nothing to aid his fellow man. His aid to Shandril Sheshair in Spellfire is just to give her some information and "don't let the door hit you on the way out." with El repeatedly reemphasizing he's retired. I will admit, TSR encourages the Chosen to be 'active' which is good for novels but not what he intended for the setting. And why are we discussing this? That doesn't really mesh well with the PC classes though. They are all based around combat, exploring, and adventuring. Clerics have high attack bonuses, weapon proficiencies, wear heavy armor, and tons of combat magic. They're walking divine tanks. How would someone who spends all day sitting in the temple reading bibles turn into this kind of warrior? He wouldn't; I agree with Eberron's take on it: most of the devout priests are Experts or low level Adepts. They are devout and can cast some magic, but they're not war machines. It's similar with wizards: most of their spells are combat-oriented. Someone who sits in a tower reading books all day is going to be an Expert with points in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana, with a few levels of wizard or magewright. Only someone who puts in tremendous dedication to being a deadly engine of magical destruction is going to become a 20th level wizard. I agree with Eberron's take in this matter that the Cleric is a warrior priest and something you don't often see very much in the world. However, my point remains about wizards and also the fact that miracles are still going to be the province of people who are actively promoting their god...not just at the butt of their sword. I disagree on regards to wizards though. The vast majority of spells are combat orientated because that's what they list in the books. I imagine combat only takes up a good 10% of real wizard's spellbooks honestly. The mighty Fizban the Fabulous of Eberron (random name, not dragonlance allusion) is going to get a lot more mileage about turning lead into gold, crafting potions of longeviety, visiting other planes, and scrying on his neighbors than he's ever going to get out of the spells he largely only memorizes for self defense.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-01-05, 07:36 PM	I'm less inclined to have this sort of problem personally because High Level Good NPCs really don't make a bit of difference in the long run compared to PCs. Partly because I have house rules on overbearing and combined fire. Overbearing rule: aka the Dog Piling Rule is where the level of the attacker goes up for every person jumping in on an opponent. A 20th level fighting 20 1st levels trying to trample him down is a good example of a fair fight. Huh? Do you mean using aid another on grapple checks? They'll be lucky to get close enough to do that if the huge mass of them didn't catch the hero by surprise. I guess. Maybe you've pulled it off. Combined Fire: aka the Shooting Gallery Rule lowers the AC of a person by one for every person firing at him with missle weapons. Hence, even Elminster goes out in a hail of arrows. If they can even see him. If he hasn't killed them first, or teleported past them, or kissed Mystra and had her fog their minds or something. But I think you didn't mean this example to apply only to Elminster. But what was the point of it? Was this to explain how to kill high-level good NPCs? If so, how are they still alive? As Ed Greenwood in his chats explains, Elminster is both a coward and insane. He's "retired" and that means basically that he considers Mystra can go **** herself with missions for him. Literally, when it comes to saving the world or risking his own hide...Elminster will prefer to hide under a rock and hope it comes out for the better. That is, again, if he's aware of what's going on. I mentioned Elminster because it's his speech in the FRCS, not just the speech of a generic super-mage. My example applies to any Chosen of Mystra. Five of the Seven Sisters, plus I think Khelben, are capable of hearing the rhyme and jumping to adventure. (I guess Storm and Alustriel are too busy, though.) That's at least five powerful good-aligned NPCs who wouldn't be so cowardly as to not try to save the world, and have the ability, know-how, etc to do it better than the PCs ever could. (It's interesting that Elminster is so wussy. He didn't seem like that in the older novels.) This is another issue that I think is problematic. The assumption that High Level NPCs would "adventure." I always hated the treatment that adventurers was a class. There is no "adventurer's guild" or large scale groupings of PCs. There are knighthoods, magic users guilds, and secret societies or resistances...there are no "Justice Leagues." The Chosen of Mystra, indeed, most of the high-level good-aligned characters in FRCS, are adventurers. (Much of the hate for high-level good-aligned NPCs comes from there.) DnD is a combat-based game, so any high-level character is probably going to kick butt in combat - it's hard not too. There's not so much difference between a high-level and a low-level social character like ... a king! Even the king of the hobgoblins has all his levels in fighting classes. (Unlike D20 Modern, DnD can't handle this kind of thing.) Fortunately, for the sake of the sanity of the campaign, Lesh (or however it's spelled) is only 12th or 13th level. (If DnD had more flexibility, he would probably have classes more suited to a warlord.) I admit, this is where I break from cannon but the best way to become a high level wizard is to get a bunch of books, a tower, a lab, and read for twenty years without interruption. Ditto clerics. A 13th level Cleric might have done some wandering preaching in his time and miracle working but he's never picked up the mace to smite the forces of darkness. The leaders of Druid Cells are raised to be druids, administer, and never once shall do anything interesting yet possess mighty magic. And yet they've got maxed out Concentration and are covered in magic items that are mainly useful in combat, etc etc. I don't believe I've ever seen a high-level wizard who wouldn't kick butt except twice (in Enemies and Allies, and a sadly incompetent mage in the novel Black Boquet, and the first guy was very old). In any event, if it's clear these guys aren't adventurers or even powerful. That's not the norm when it comes to NPCs, especially if they're the type who play starring roles in novels. You could decide it's the norm for your Eberron campaign, but then why doesn't this same thing afflict the evil NPCs? The only people who basically NEED to adventure are warriors and rogues and there's just as likely to be a swordmaster like Iagyu Jubei who never fought a man in his life but nevertheless practiced the Way of the Kensai. I can think of plenty of reasons for mages to adventure. Some are going to be combat mages, and will accept money (or a share of loot) to go adventuring, guard caravans, participate in large-scale warfare, or what have you. Others are going to want revenge, or want to fight evil, etc. PCs are Heroes, which is not something you put on a resume. It's freakishly weird to have a warrior, a wizard, a cleric, and a thief team up. It's BIZARRE to see wizards use their spells for anything other than self advancement as much as it is a thief. It's ODD to see a priest swing a mace in the name of God. In real life, it wasn't so odd. (Many Catholic priests in the Middle Ages were the minor sons of nobility, and would have been a page and learned how to fight before they went to church school.) Besides, I wonder just what is a priest doing sitting in a temple to gain all those levels. (I don't see cleric levels as reflecting political position. The priest who practically runs the Barony of Karanor is high-level... but he's an aristrocraft 10/cleric 4 with 4 ranks in Concentration.) Ask the "Nine" what they are and Boromir will say he's a General, Aragorn will say he's a woodsman, Gimli is a miner, Samwise a gardener, Leogolas is a guardsman for his majesty, Pippin and Merry are independently wealthy local aristocrats, and Frodo was considering taking up authorship. (okay, the Nine is a bad example since they're all professional warriors but the prinicple above is the same). I wouldn't say "all of them". Of the halflings, only Merry started with any real combat ability. They hardly counted. (Note that LotR wasn't written as part of a game world. If it was, the halflings would either not suck, or they wouldn't be there, or they would be pushed further into the background.) It's by circumstance that these losers have left their role in society to become oddball heroes of their world. Certainly, any high level NPCs that WERE heroes of old have probably since retired. What if the high-level NPC is only 35 years old, he retired 5 years ago, he doesn't have much of a paunch yet, and he's called upon to save the world? Of course he'll do it! I don't think it's realistic for reasonably young and capable high-level NPCs to not do this. If all those other high-level good NPCs in a game world, like Eberron, couldn't adventure for some reason, it might work. Except how come so many high-level evil NPCs haven't retired? Do they gain levels faster (and are thus younger)? Why's that? One would think it's a rare person who isn't chosen by something greater who 'adventures' It's a giant railroad from my PoV. You can adventure for your own reasons. You don't need a person, organization,deity or even "fate" to give you permission. I never in my life thought they did. Most of the high-level good NPCs mentioned in the ECS have this kind of restriction on them ... they don't leave their grove, they don't go away from the Flame, they're a king, etc. (I'm not counting the later books, which move further away from Mr. Baker's vision.) Part of the appeal of Forgotten Realms is the fact that Everyone is the Favorite of Some god or another and the whole place is like "Clash of the Titans" with moves and counter moves. That doesn't appeal to me so much. It would appeal to me more if I were counted as one of the titans, though :) Actually, Eberron does have lots of clashes of the mini-titans. You don't need to be able to destroy a whole city on a whim to be a titan. Besides, no matter how powerful Elminster is, the strength of a single magius is neglible on fields of battle and heroism. That's not how you save the world, however. The strength of the PCs is also negligible on fields of battle, yet they're expected to do it on a regular basis - just like Elminster, Khelben, Qilue or whatever uber good-aligned NPC is hanging around. In a star wars game during the Prequels I'd hate to see how you think the Jedi would deal with the Separatists. "Yoda will deal with their armies." Mace Windu has done it before :D The heroes of Star Wars rarely spend time on the front lines, however. They're too busy killing Sith or recovering sacred writings and crystals or whatever to worry about th at. My PCs were always thinking how incredibly cool the idea of Magocracys like Haruula and Thay were and how if there were wizards in rea life, they would gravitate to ruling positions. And be terrible at the job. I'm not seeing Diplomacy or Sense Motive on the wizard's class skill list. Those DnD novels are based on a game, after all. In Forgotten Realms if a bunch of 8th level people steal the Stone of Whatchamigger and tear down the Flying Citadel filled with a 1000 36th level Archwizards then that doesn't make their accomplishment any less grand. No, but it makes it shorter, as they won't last long enough to enjoy the glory. I will admit, Toril portrays him rarely as a coward but it often does portray him as a person who will do nothing to aid his fellow man. There's plenty of Chosen where he came from. Batman is the guardian of Gotham City. Do you know what that means? Superman is not guarding Gotham City nor is anyone else. Batman and other people occasionally join into the Justice League because they can occasionally join together to fight evil (which is more than the chosen ever do). Does that stop every single other hero from Blue Beatle to Booster Gold from saving the world from destruction whenever it happened? Would the world be any less dead if they failed because Superman didn't know, wasn't there, or couldn't do it at the time? No. DC comics isn't a game system. Neither is LotR. They're just muddying the waters. If I were to play in a DC comics game (assuming there's such a system, and I'm sure there is one somewhere or other) I would expect to be as powerful as Superman, or I would only expect to adventure when he's unavailable/busy. The latter is pretty lame. PS I don't think it's necessary to insult FR DMs. The novels and the published adventures overused the whole world-shaking event/world-ending plot. I don't think 10th-level PCs are capable of saving the world, and even if they are, such plots should only be used for adventures designed for 30th-level+ PCs (eg above all the good NPCs except Elminster, who is retired). In an Eberron campaign, you could do this at 12th or 13th level. In FR, 30th. Big difference.
Brastan 08-01-05, 08:04 PM	I like the way Eberron started with a nice mix of NPC and PC classes on important characters. With 3 and 3.5 we have NPCs class were the never existed before. Characters were either PC classes or unclassed. Since Eberron is a true 3.5 setting we should be using NPC classes more to help illustrate the difference between the Player's characters and the other people of the land. A 20th level warrior is a 20th level character and thus is a significant bad-ass. However he is only a CR 10 encounter so he should be nice be a reasonable fight for high level PCs. His big advantage is his BAB is going to basically guaranty that he hits just about every time Lets say you surround a BBEG (who has PC levels) with slightly higher level NPC classed support, this should be perfectly reasonable. It shows that level has little to do with real power and potential. Mixing NPC, PC and Prestige classes would allow for high level NPCs without challenge the Players place as the heros. I think we can all agree that full PC classed characters are considerably more powerful than those mixed with NPC classes. An example of weakening NPC is the Phantom Knight who's perquisites basically need them to Fighter arcanists. Instead try using Warrior/ Magewrigths who can also qualify for that PrC. That takes what would be a nastily high-level glut of NPCs and cuts it down. When the Players ask why the Phantom Knights can't do something thier is a good reason. Warrior 1/ Magewright 8/ PKnight 1 with INT 16(easily obtainable with elite array) is a CR 5 or 6 encounter. That should make 100 of them much more manageable. It makes the PC PKnights look much more impressive as they should. Even a Figher 1/ Magewright 8 / PKnight 1 works. Just tweak the spell list a little to include of evocation or abjuration spells. A DM is perfectly justified to do that.
Psionycx 08-01-05, 08:13 PM	I don't want to be inspired by Superman. I want to be Superman! This whole "the PC's get to save the world because Superman was in the bathroom" is demeaning. And when you examine how FR is written, that's how it is there. The Epic NPC's are not "retired". They're running amok meddling in everything, everywhere, all the time. They're in the setting because Ed Greenwood and others felt a craving to give vent to their power fantasies on published page, and they did. And it bred this "iconic heroes are untouchable" mindset coupled with pages and pages of spells, magical items and special powers that only NPC's were meant to have. So basically if your heroes save the world it's because El was on a smoker's break and the Seven Sisters were out shopping for more skimpy chemise shifts.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-01-05, 08:18 PM	A 20th level warrior is a 20th level character and thus is a significant bad-ass. However he is only a CR 10 encounter so he should be nice be a reasonable fight for high level PCs. I thought that was CR 19. (Not that he's worth his CR.)
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 08:27 PM	I want to thank you (Psi)SeveredHead for taking the time to respond to so much and I want to thank everyone else too. It's rare I get to have a chance for spirited discussion of D&D as a world. Huh? Do you mean using aid another on grapple checks? They'll be lucky to get close enough to do that if the huge mass of them didn't catch the hero by surprise. It's more of a story telling rule than anything this. It's a way of basically justifying that if you're in the Lord of the Rings where you're surrounded by 2000 goblibs and you're in a circle, you can't just slay them all even if they're first level and you're 20th level all....you're probably going to die if you're not capable of thinking up something truly grand. You'll go down swinging but you go down. If they can even see him. If he hasn't killed them first, or teleported past them, or kissed Mystra and had her fog their minds or something. Very true. But I think you didn't mean this example to apply only to Elminster. But what was the point of it? Was this to explain how to kill high-level good NPCs? If so, how are they still alive? Thank you for this line especially. My Player's asked Elminster the same thing. I did this... "Come closer lads...Come closer...do you want to know how I stayed alive 900 years?" *shout* "BECAUSE I STAYED OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE!" I mentioned Elminster because it's his speech in the FRCS, not just the speech of a generic super-mage. My example applies to any Chosen of Mystra. Five of the Seven Sisters, plus I think Khelben, are capable of hearing the rhyme and jumping to adventure. (I guess Storm and Alustriel are too busy, though.) That's at least five powerful good-aligned NPCs who wouldn't be so cowardly as to not try to save the world, and have the ability, know-how, etc to do it better than the PCs ever could. (It's interesting that Elminster is so wussy. He didn't seem like that in the older novels.) You actually list what I think is important for most of the high level characters. That they have some form of responsibility to them. This isn't about Forgotten Realms though (some of the Seven Sisters aren't even Archmages and are bards or Rangers or DEAD and all. Part of what I think is that it's wrong to think that the majority of these guys are fighters in the strictest sense anymore (Storm and Dove are but are noteworthy not archmages). The role of the adventurer is to not play a footsoldier in the grand conflict but to somehow snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. If say, Eberron had its own equivalent to the Wizards Eight of Greyhawk or Chosen then they might be consultants on important mystical matters but if there's a Gateway to Hell opened and Cthulhu pouring out then they pretty much can't do anything and it's up the PCs to win victory through some weakness in the enemy's plan or Achilles heel since it's a slim chance and the PCs are expendable or more likely because the wizards aren't capable of doing it. The Chosen of Mystra, indeed, most of the high-level good-aligned characters in FRCS, are adventurers. (Much of the hate for high-level good-aligned NPCs comes from there.) DnD is a combat-based game, so any high-level character is probably going to kick butt in combat - it's hard not too. There's not so much difference between a high-level and a low-level social character like ... a king! Something I've always had a problem with and what Eberron goes a long way to addressing. Even the king of the hobgoblins has all his levels in fighting classes. (Unlike D20 Modern, DnD can't handle this kind of thing.) Fortunately, for the sake of the sani[ty of the campaign, Lesh (or however it's spelled) is only 12th or 13th level. (If DnD had more flexibility, he would probably have classes more suited to a warlord.) This isn't necessarily so bad. While General Patton and Grand Admiral Thrawn are characters you should never get into hand to hand combat, However Darth Vader is both the leader of the Imperial Military and also a character you can duel with. I'm reminded of King Theoden dueling with the Witch King. You need that sort of thing to occur at times. And yet they've got maxed out Concentration and are covered in magic items that are mainly useful in combat, etc etc. I don't believe I've ever seen a high-level wizard who wouldn't kick butt except twice (in Enemies and Allies, and a sadly incompetent mage in the novel Black Boquet, and the first guy was very old). In any event, if it's clear these guys aren't adventurers or even powerful. That's not the norm when it comes to NPCs, especially if they're the type who play starring roles in novels. You could decide it's the norm for your Eberron campaign, but then why doesn't this same thing afflict the evil NPCs? Magic is USEFUL in combat, but I rule it's not DESIGNED for combat. Concentration is useful for magic in ways that are outside of combat as well. The majority of wizards in my game will not be bedecked down in battle spells. Because Eberron is a dangerous place, the majority of wizards will have lightning bolt or magic missle or maybe a grease or bind spell prepared just in case they have a problem. It's only going to be during wartime or when they're preparing for a spell duel or whatnot that they're going to be loaded down with combat magic. Most of the time they're going to have useful but non-threatening spells memorized like divinations, charms, and maybe stuff to make food or money for themselves. You'll rarely see a poor wizard because most got into the profession because it makes a lot of money and gives a certain gauranteed independence but the majority aren't going to be battle mages. Villains are the exception to the rule because they're different. Even the majority of Black Robed Evil WizardsTM are not going to be VILLAINS in my campaign though. Severus Snape is a selfish evil barve but mostly his evil is going to be limited to price gouging and maybe occasionally hexing his neighbors milk sour. Selfish, vindictive, and cruel doesn't mean malevolent. Villains tend to be characters who study magic less for the purposes of simply getting rich quick and living off the profits with respect but those who has serious mental issues like revenge, hatred, and the desire to destroy their enemies. These guys load up on combat spells, raising armies of the dead, and destroying a city. In Eberron I actually term these kind of evil wizards to be terrorists. I can think of plenty of reasons for mages to adventure. Some are going to be combat mages, and will accept money (or a share of loot) to go adventuring, guard caravans, participate in large-scale warfare, or what have you. Others are going to want revenge, or want to fight evil, etc. A professional mercenary wizard is going to be something different from an adventurer, though he may go on what people term adventures I think. It's like a related note, The Crusades had one of the few examples of real life "adventurers" and these people overthrew kingdoms on their own, explored ruins, and did whacky political changes. They were still a small percentage of those who were part of larger armies and movements. In real life, it wasn't so odd. (Many Catholic priests in the Middle Ages were the minor sons of nobility, and would have been a page and learned how to fight before they went to church school.) I'll concede this. Besides, I wonder just what is a priest doing sitting in a temple to gain all those levels. (I don't see cleric levels as reflecting political position. The priest who practically runs the Barony of Karanor is high-level... but he's an aristrocraft 10/cleric 4 with 4 ranks in Concentration.)[/QUITE] I imagine preaching and healing people. Not to offend my own religion but Jesus only faced one demon in his life in a combat capacity and the other time he simply refused the overtures. The Saint Francises and other miracle workers aren't necessarily going to be reknowned for their spilling the blood of the forces of darkness. There WILL be Saint Georges but these guys are the PCs not them. [QUOTE=(Psi)SeveredHead]What if the high-level NPC is only 35 years old, he retired 5 years ago, he doesn't have much of a paunch yet, and he's called upon to save the world? Of course he'll do it! I don't think it's realistic for reasonably young and capable high-level NPCs to not do this. Part of this sort of thing isn't particularly well covered in games but it's something I use for the Elminsters and other types of characters I run. Elminster was a hero of the past but he's horrifyingly haunted by all the blood he's spilt and the nightmares he's endured. The majority of heroes have done great deeds but most of them once they get into "normal life" may find it extremely difficult to go back into the fields of battle, though most will want their well done NPCs to be willing and ready to go. I like to cut the people some slack when they are retired and have done their share. If all those other high-level good NPCs in a game world, like Eberron, couldn't adventure for some reason, it might work. Except how come so many high-level evil NPCs haven't retired? Do they gain levels faster (and are thus younger)? In part I like to note I think most villains are masterminds and essentially don't adventure but use their henchmen. Most villain's business *IS* wickedness for the most part and only Paladins really are professional smiters of evil with most knights more concerned with protecting what is righteous than actively seeking to banish evil through the Sword rather than preaching or exorcism. Quite a few are also insane.
makeshiftwings 08-01-05, 09:00 PM	We are mainly talking about adding huge, epic level, NPC good guy hero adventurers to the world. If you're saying Elminster, Drizzt, the Seven Sisters, etc., aren't adventurers and haven't saved the world a million times, then well, you're in a very small minority and should read the novels a little closer. A brief note from Greenwood in Dragon magazine somewhere saying "uh... elminster's retired. and also insane, and a coward. and paralyzed from the neck down," doesn't outweigh the heap of novels and all of his stats and appearances in adventures and rule books. Even if Elminster's out of the picture, you still have a hundred other epic level similar NPCs in FR. So, I think you need to clarify your position: are you saying it's good to have high level epic good guy hero NPCs, or are you saying you only want high level neutral non-adventuring NPCs who have tons of combat ability and twinked out adventuring gear, but for some reason, never enter combat or go adventuring? If it's the former, then that's what most people are arguing about. If it's the latter, then that's kind of weird, and not at all what any other published D&D campaign is like, especially not FR, which you keep using as an example. Before deciding to add near-immortal epic good guy NPCs to the campaign, I think a few questions should be looked at: 1) Is it fun for the players? Answer: No, not really. They will feel inept and worthless for their entire adventuring careers with so many people better than them flitting around doing all the important work; and knowing that at any moment they could be squished like a bug if any of them decided to so much as glance in their direction. FR players will never become powerful enough to be involved in anything important to the world, except maybe at the very very end of an extremely long epic-level campaign, and even then, they will be inferior because of the NPC-only godchosen templates that are on everybody and their mother. 2) Does it add to the realism of the world? Answer: No. The DM has to constantly come up with tired excuses for why the hundreds of epic level good guys are sitting around drinking tea all day instead of being heroic and getting things done like they did in all the books we read about them. 3) Are the players going to fight them / be in combat on their side? If not, there's no reason to bother statting them out. If you're going to fill an entire book with epic level NPC stats (I'm looking at you, FRCS), then it's pretty much implied that you want the DM to actually USE these characters in game. If all anyone ever sees of Elminster is a witty phrase and his refusal to do anything buy sit on a stool smoking a pipe, then why does he need to be statted out? No, he's there so that players can fight him and lose (and see how insignificant they are), or watch him destroy all their enemies in a tenth of the time they could (and see how insignificant they are).
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-01-05, 09:00 PM	Thank you for this line especially. My Player's asked Elminster the same thing. I did this... "Come closer lads...Come closer...do you want to know how I stayed alive 900 years?" *shout* "BECAUSE I STAYED OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE!" He did no such thing. He has thrown himself into the line of fire time and time again, and I'm not talking about when he was caught by surprise or something like that. You actually list what I think is important for most of the high level characters. That they have some form of responsibility to them. Lots of them don't. Mirt the Merciless is just one of the Lords of Waterdeep - he can go off and adventure (especially if he needs to save the world - all of a sudden his responsibilities seem kind of petty). Storm has a little manor or something, and little responsibility beyond that. If say, Eberron had its own equivalent to the Wizards Eight of Greyhawk or Chosen then they might be consultants on important mystical matters but if there's a Gateway to Hell opened and Cthulhu pouring out then they pretty much can't do anything and it's up the PCs to win victory through some weakness in the enemy's plan or Achilles heel since it's a slim chance and the PCs are expendable or more likely because the wizards aren't capable of doing it. Why wouldn't these high level wizards be capable of it? (The FR wizards certainly are.) If the world is going to end, everyone is expendable. And finally, if the PCs find a weakness in Cthulhu's plan, why can't they tell these powerful wizards about it? (That's one reason why I hate that kind of plot.) Magic is USEFUL in combat, but I rule it's not DESIGNED for combat. Concentration is useful for magic in ways that are outside of combat as well. WotC should put some effort into making this obvious :) The majority of wizards in my game will not be bedecked down in battle spells. Because Eberron is a dangerous place, the majority of wizards will have lightning bolt or magic missle or maybe a grease or bind spell prepared just in case they have a problem. I would expect the typical wizard to have Mage Armor and Dimension Door (if they're high enough level), not just attack spells. A mage who isn't prepared needs to keep himself alive and run, not sit and fight. It's only going to be during wartime or when they're preparing for a spell duel or whatnot that they're going to be loaded down with combat magic. Most of the time they're going to have useful but non-threatening spells memorized like divinations, charms, and maybe stuff to make food or money for themselves. Given a day's warning (most adventures last more than a day), they could turn out to be useful in combat. You'll rarely see a poor wizard because most got into the profession because it makes a lot of money and gives a certain gauranteed independence but the majority aren't going to be battle mages. No, but you'll always find a few. A professional mercenary wizard is going to be something different from an adventurer, though he may go on what people term adventures I think. It's like a related note, The Crusades had one of the few examples of real life "adventurers" and these people overthrew kingdoms on their own, explored ruins, and did whacky political changes. They were still a small percentage of those who were part of larger armies and movements. They make good henchmen, though :D Actually, real-life adventuring was common in that time period anytime law and order broke down. From Three Kingdoms China to the Thirty Years' War to the Sforza family. Part of this sort of thing isn't particularly well covered in games but it's something I use for the Elminsters and other types of characters I run. Elminster was a hero of the past but he's horrifyingly haunted by all the blood he's spilt and the nightmares he's endured. The majority of heroes have done great deeds but most of them once they get into "normal life" may find it extremely difficult to go back into the fields of battle, though most will want their well done NPCs to be willing and ready to go. I like to cut the people some slack when they are retired and have done their share. I guess this is an FR problem, rather than a high-level NPC problem. Most of those adventurers in the novels never have this problem. In part I like to note I think most villains are masterminds and essentially don't adventure but use their henchmen. I'd figure they'd have do some adventuring on their own. (They learned to use those nasty spells effectively somewhere, they have to teach their minions how to fight, and only they know how to unlock the secrets of the McGuffin, which cannot be transported by ordinary mortals.) Quite a few are also insane. Something I despise. I like villains like Tywin Lannister - smart, capable, not uber, and perfectly sane.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 09:32 PM	We are mainly talking about adding huge, epic level, NPC good guy hero adventurers to the world. If you're saying Elminster, Drizzt, the Seven Sisters, etc., aren't adventurers and haven't saved the world a million times, then well, you're in a very small minority and should read the novels a little closer. A brief note from Greenwood in Dragon magazine somewhere saying "uh... elminster's retired. and also insane, and a coward. and paralyzed from the neck down," doesn't outweigh the heap of novels and all of his stats and appearances in adventures and rule books. Even if Elminster's out of the picture, you still have a hundred other epic level similar NPCs in FR. Okay, first of all, when the hell did Drizzt (a 16th level ranger) become a Epic Huge Good Guy adventurer? I will confess YES, the characters in the books are adventurers largely. As insane as it may be for the use of the Seven Sisters and Chosen as adventurers, they occasionally do show up as cannon fodder I will admit. However, Drizzt and Arilyn really don't seem to be exactly characters that are overthetop important in the grand scheme of things. I will confess they are occasionally used...weirdly. So, I think you need to clarify your position: are you saying it's good to have high level epic good guy hero NPCs, or are you saying you only want high level neutral non-adventuring NPCs who have tons of combat ability and twinked out adventuring gear, but for some reason, never enter combat or go adventuring? If it's the former, then that's what most people are arguing about. If it's the latter, then that's kind of weird, and not at all what any other published D&D campaign is like, especially not FR, which you keep using as an example. Before deciding to add near-immortal epic good guy NPCs to the campaign, I think a few questions should be looked at: I believe it's good to have epic high level heroes if the game setting supports the kind of play that will eventually result in players having risen to Epic high level good levels.....and they can be used in part as an excuse why things like the Daelkyr or so on haveren't destroyed things. Coincidentally of course, they start to fail the moment the PCs rise to prominence. He did no such thing. He has thrown himself into the line of fire time and time again, and I'm not talking about when he was caught by surprise or something like that. He also created the Harpers and the Knights of Myth Drannor for the war against the Maugarym (sp?) and the Zhents. Lots of them don't. Mirt the Merciless is just one of the Lords of Waterdeep - he can go off and adventure (especially if he needs to save the world - all of a sudden his responsibilities seem kind of petty). Storm has a little manor or something, and little responsibility beyond that. I would think a man of Mirt's rather obscene largess would not particularly be inclined to ever go adventuring again but instead would stay with his wife and business. Storm, I listed as one of those who actively could adventure as well. Why wouldn't these high level wizards be capable of it? (The FR wizards certainly are.) If the world is going to end, everyone is expendable. And finally, if the PCs find a weakness in Cthulhu's plan, why can't they tell these powerful wizards about it? (That's one reason why I hate that kind of plot.) May I ask you a question. Why didn't Yoda and Obi Wan go tag team the Emperor and/or Darth Vader? It's a logical question. Why doesn't Splinter join Leonardo, Donatello, Michangelo, and Raphael in fighting the Foot Clan? He's a rat but he's still a capable warrior. Why DOESN'T Elrond put his nose to the grindstone and join the Fellowship himself? In my games, the easiest answer is they'd fail and they'd only impede the other heroes. It could be one of a million different reasons for it or a combination of them but anyone sufficiently wise can tell that Elminster and the Seven versus Bane's avatar would be crushed. Obi Wan and Yoda vs. Vader...both die. That's how it works. WotC should put some effort into making this obvious :) Not everything has to be point A to point Z. I would expect the typical wizard to have Mage Armor and Dimension Door (if they're high enough level), not just attack spells. A mage who isn't prepared needs to keep himself alive and run, not sit and fight. You're correct on that end and for that I bow to your wisdom. Given a day's warning (most adventures last more than a day), they could turn out to be useful in combat. I imagine most did not spend 20 years studying sorcery to be soldiers in a war and would actively avoid combat if they can manage it. Also, it depends on how many wizards accumulate attack spells veruses other (perhaps more useful in their position...magics). No, but you'll always find a few. I admit, I'm losing this arguement. Actually, real-life adventuring was common in that time period anytime law and order broke down. From Three Kingdoms China to the Thirty Years' War to the Sforza family. We obviously have different ideas of adventuring. I guess this is an FR problem, rather than a high-level NPC problem. Most of those adventurers in the novels never have this problem. It's a common pulp fiction trope actually. The Old Sheriff or whatnot who comes out for "one last grand adventure." Part of the point of these stories is though that even if they (for all stretches of the imagination) be still rather healthy individuals....they rarely survive these passing of the torch engagements. Even if they're only in their forties or fifties. I'd figure they'd have do some adventuring on their own. (They learned to use those nasty spells effectively somewhere, they have to teach their minions how to fight, and only they know how to unlock the secrets of the McGuffin, which cannot be transported by ordinary mortals.) While I'm sure they might occasionally explore a crypt or unholy bargains, I still tend to think that PCs are the only wizards that ever pretty much just wander around and kill fellow wizards for their spellbooks or pick them up along the way. Something I despise. I like villains like Tywin Lannister - smart, capable, not uber, and perfectly sane. Part of my problem with sane villains is the fact that they're kinda pathetic. Greedy and ambitious people just don't have the oomph behind them that someone who intends to butcher the entire world does or blot out the sun or any other nonsensical but damning goals are.
Psionycx 08-01-05, 09:48 PM	The question coming down to: Why do we need shiny adventurer icon NPC's at all? Whether Drizzt or Arilyn, Storm or Shandril, Elminster or the Symbul, why do we need them? In FR it always seemed that even "average" NPC's had an edge. Shandril had the Spellfire. Arilyn has her Moonblade. Alias has her preprogrammed knowledge and immunity to magical detection. Drizzt has a whole bag of tricks. So not only are they there, but they have special perks right out of the starting gate. So let's step back a moment. We're in Eberron, not Forgotten Realms. Do we really want to repeat the mistake of the Realms and fill the place up with all kinds of butt-kicking NPC's? Why? What purpose do they serve? How do they really enrich the player's experience? Are they really needed if the campaign is supposed to focus on the PC's and not on the extras? A James Bond movie is about James Bond! It's not about the bad guy, or the sidekicks, or even the Bond girls. They're just plot devices. The idea is that the hero of the piece is tested by the variety of challenges placed in his path. Not by the fact that is foe is all powerful and untouchable. Indeed, this is a common problem in FR (and was in later Greyhawk as well). The real bad guy is untouchable. The PC's can foil his plans, but it's often because he wasn't even around when they managed to muck things up. The uber-wizard, evil demigod or whatever was otherwise busy and darned if those wretched underlings couldn't be left unsupervised for 5 minutes without letting adventurers wreck the joint! It's not a heady triumph really. The good guys win because the real good guys decided to let the second string play and likewise the real villains decided to put in minimal effort so as to be sporting. I believe that the focus should be on the PC's. The NPC's are supporting cast.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-01-05, 10:08 PM	Okay, first of all, when the hell did Drizzt (a 16th level ranger) become a Epic Huge Good Guy adventurer? When we bothered to read the books. His stats don't fit his character any more than the Simbul's stats do. He's epic, and it's only FR's pro-wizard bias that keeps that down. (If you think his stats suck, take a look at Entreri's. He's a master at making, disarming and repairing traps, even disabling magical ones easily, but his Disable Device score sucks so much.) And on that note, Drizzt has more fighter than ranger levels. Which is actually pretty accurate. I will confess YES, the characters in the books are adventurers largely. As insane as it may be for the use of the Seven Sisters and Chosen as adventurers, they occasionally do show up as cannon fodder I will admit. They're not cannon fodder. They're the elite troops you use in battle, or powerful vigilantes. You can find these elites in real life, and they often do dangerous tasks, rather than stay safe. However, Drizzt and Arilyn really don't seem to be exactly characters that are overthetop important in the grand scheme of things. If you've read the last three Drizzt books, you would disagree with this statement. Drizzt is important in his geographic area. It's a good thing fighters can't teleport, or he'd be all over the place. He also created the Harpers and the Knights of Myth Drannor for the war against the Maugarym (sp?) and the Zhents. True, but he adventured when he was a powerful wizard. It's only because Elminster is retired... [qutoe]I would think a man of Mirt's rather obscene largess would not particularly be inclined to ever go adventuring again but instead would stay with his wife and business. Storm, I listed as one of those who actively could adventure as well.[/quote] I take it you haven't read his entry in the Heroes' Lorebook. (I wouldn't expect you to read a ten-year-old 2e supplement.) His girth doesn't slow him down at all, and the hitch in his step is faked. (If you don't believe me, just look at his Dex score. It isn't low.) May I ask you a question. Why didn't Yoda and Obi Wan go tag team the Emperor and/or Darth Vader? Mace Windu is a better warrior than Obi Wan. Obi Wan would just slow them down. Agen Kolar (one of the three Jedi whom Palpitine slew so quickly) was a better warrior than Obi Wan, yet Agen Kolar died fast. Meanwhile, wasn't Yoda on Kasshyk? I think so. I'm not 100% sure of this. (There's no teleport spell in the Jediverse.) It's a logical question. With logical answers. Why doesn't Splinter join Leonardo, Donatello, Michangelo, and Raphael in fighting the Foot Clan? He's a rat but he's still a capable warrior. I have not read the ninja turtle comics, only seen the TV show. He was defeated, easily, by a wimpy robot in one of the first five episodes and hardly went adventuring after that. When he did fight on occasion on the show, he was a nasty opponent, capable of defeating Shredder. Why DOESN'T Elrond put his nose to the grindstone and join the Fellowship himself? You know, that's a good question. It's one reason I didn't like him (or other elves) much. I guess he wasn't such a great warrior. Lots of not-so-great warriors take part in battles (he did take part in battles before, such as in the Last Alliance of Men and Elves). Does anyone recall when he got his ring? I think (not 100% sure of this) that he got the ring when another high-ranking elf got killed during that Alliance. (The elves and humans lost their top leader in the battle.) The Elven Rings of Power cannot maintain a realm when taken away - at least, I've seen no evidence of this. (Gandalf had the Ring of Air, but as he doesn't maintain a realm he can adventure with it. Galadriel has the third elven ring, and again she has a realm to maintain.) In my games, the easiest answer is they'd fail and they'd only impede the other heroes. It could be one of a million different reasons for it or a combination of them but anyone sufficiently wise can tell that Elminster and the Seven versus Bane's avatar would be crushed. Anyone sufficiently wise would tell you the PCs would be crushed for the exact same reason. I mean really, an avatar of Bane? Reminds me of why I don't like FR deities, or the Time of Troubles. Obi Wan and Yoda vs. Vader...both die. Obi Wan cut Vader up on a fiery battlefield. (I mean, really, he taught Vader how to fight. How could he lose?) Vader had to live in a black cage because he bot beat so very bad. So why would you say Obi Wan would lose? You must be talking about Episode IV (or is it V?) where Obi Wan, now old, lets Vader kill him. Yoda couldn't take on Vader later because he was old and Vader doesn't go anywhere without a squad of "well-trained" stormtroopers. Plus, Yoda sticks out like a sore thumb. Who wouldn't notice a weird little green man with a huge price on his head? I imagine most did not spend 20 years studying sorcery to be soldiers in a war and would actively avoid combat if they can manage it. Also, it depends on how many wizards accumulate attack spells veruses other (perhaps more useful in their position...magics). Most, yes. Not all. (I think casting spells in battle counts as gaining XP for an NPC battle mage.) We obviously have different ideas of adventuring. I'm not talking full-scale war here (though there were full scale wars going on due to the lack of law and order). It's a common pulp fiction trope actually. The Old Sheriff or whatnot who comes out for "one last grand adventure." Part of the point of these stories is though that even if they (for all stretches of the imagination) be still rather healthy individuals....they rarely survive these passing of the torch engagements. Yes, but does that apply to real life? Adventurers have to act like they're in real life. They're not going to say "don't go adventuring, middle-aged sheriff... you'll probably die like in that novel I read". Now, if said sheriff goes and gets killed, then the PCs have a good reason to jump in. While I'm sure they might occasionally explore a crypt or unholy bargains, I still tend to think that PCs are the only wizards that ever pretty much just wander around and kill fellow wizards for their spellbooks or pick them up along the way. Nah, there's plenty of evil wizards doing that. (FR adventuring wizards rarely deliberately murder wizards for spellbooks, not if they're good aligned. In fact, the amount of spellbook ransacking and magic item looting is a lot lower in FR novels than in the game. I blame the game for this, rather than the novels.) Part of my problem with sane villains is the fact that they're kinda pathetic. Greedy and ambitious people just don't have the oomph behind them that someone who intends to butcher the entire world does or blot out the sun or any other nonsensical but damning goals are. More of those save-the-world plots, right? Lots of sane people are ambitious. So-and-so thinks they'd be the best ruler for this-and-that plot of land, and takes over. Plenty of real-life villains started off toppling a previous villain, with only good intentions at heart, before they started going too far and went evil themselves. (The Taliban is an example of this, but that's stepping onto the real-world/religious discussion that's not really allowed on these boards.) I think people see world conquerers as insane because the last person who made a credible attempt to do so (that I know of) was very evil and insane. (You know who I'm talking about.) His insanity made him a dangerous opponent, but it also created weaknesses that his enemies could exploit. I hardly see people as Alexander the Great, Cao Cao, Liu Bei or Oda Nobunaga as being insane, but they tried to conquer the world around them and two of them have a reputation for being "evil" as well. Now give them magic, and watch what happens. A potentially interesting villain, with a stable mind to boot. Insane villains usually have some huge weakness that makes them too easy to defeat, at least in the novels. This was especially true in the 2e Realms Lore, where they'd get defeated for the stupidest reasons.
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 10:48 PM	The question coming down to: Why do we need shiny adventurer icon NPC's at all? Consumer demand largely. If Eberron novels are produced then Eberron heroes must star in them because these novels cannot obviously display PCs from your campaign. Either you can declare these novels noncannon in your game (which many Dms do and save them a lot of trouble) or you can embrace the adventure. Whether Drizzt or Arilyn, Storm or Shandril, Elminster or the Symbul, why do we need them? Adventure Hooks honestly. I play games based on interaction more than anything else. Let me tell you, I got DOZENS of adventure hooks out of Heroes Lorebook, I got practically zip out of the Silver Marches. In FR it always seemed that even "average" NPC's had an edge. Shandril had the Spellfire. Arilyn has her Moonblade. Alias has her preprogrammed knowledge and immunity to magical detection. Drizzt has a whole bag of tricks. So not only are they there, but they have special perks right out of the starting gate. I take it you don't allow your PC's edges? So let's step back a moment. We're in Eberron, not Forgotten Realms. Do we really want to repeat the mistake of the Realms and fill the place up with all kinds of butt-kicking NPC's? It's inevitable if they publish the highly profitable and very enjoyable novel fiction. Ravenloft survived longer than Planescape and other books entirely because of their novels. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance lived for as long as they did because of novels. Why? What purpose do they serve? How do they really enrich the player's experience? Are they really needed if the campaign is supposed to focus on the PC's and not on the extras? I cannot fathom the jealousy and vindictiveness players must have to think that their supporting cast must not exist. Heroes Lorebook provides love interests, patrons, mentors, and the occasional partner for a mission. I can't tell you how often Queen Robin, Diedre, Alias, and Arilyn or her mother have shown up in games as girlfriends to woo for players. King Azoun I used as the secret father of one of the players. Elminster is the "go to guy" for weird ass information on the Nine Hells and so on. Nothing kills a game more than mindless combat and posturing. A James Bond movie is about James Bond! It's not about the bad guy, or the sidekicks, or even the Bond girls. They're just plot devices. The idea is that the hero of the piece is tested by the variety of challenges placed in his path. Not by the fact that is foe is all powerful and untouchable. Actually, this is very rarely the case. Part of the enjoyment of the player is occasionally character development but the setting, interaction with the villain, and the PC girls all contribute to enjoyment. One trap after another is just a dungeon crawl. Indeed, this is a common problem in FR (and was in later Greyhawk as well). The real bad guy is untouchable. The PC's can foil his plans, but it's often because he wasn't even around when they managed to muck things up. The uber-wizard, evil demigod or whatever was otherwise busy and darned if those wretched underlings couldn't be left unsupervised for 5 minutes without letting adventurers wreck the joint! I admit, Eberron has the potential for slaying the Manshoons and the Fzouls and I like that. It's not a heady triumph really. The good guys win because the real good guys decided to let the second string play and likewise the real villains decided to put in minimal effort so as to be sporting. Only the PCs can kill Manshoon or Fzoul. That's the way Fantasy works. Unlike (Psi)Severedhead, I make sure my PCs are aware they are in a fantasy story. If the PCs say "Let Elminster do it", yes, Elminster can buckle up and go challenge Fzoul...and he'll die. Then the PCs cowardice has left an innocent man's death on their conscience.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-01-05, 10:59 PM	Consumer demand largely. If Eberron novels are produced then Eberron heroes must star in them because these novels cannot obviously display PCs from your campaign. Either you can declare these novels noncannon in your game (which many Dms do and save them a lot of trouble) or you can embrace the adventure. None of the characters in City of Towers were obnoxiously overpowered. I take it you don't allow your PC's edges? Spellfire isn't exactly a common PC ability in FR games. Neither is Chosen of Mystra status, permanent nondetection, or what have you. DMs can come up with their own, non-ridiculously overpowered bag of tricks for PCs and NPCs. I cannot fathom the jealousy and vindictiveness players must have to think that their supporting cast must not exist. It must be the ridiculously broken bag of tricks that the PCs will never have access to. Heroes Lorebook provides love interests, patrons, mentors, and the occasional partner for a mission. I can't tell you how often Queen Robin, Diedre, Alias, and Arilyn or her mother have shown up in games as girlfriends to woo for players. King Azoun I used as the secret father of one of the players. Elminster is the "go to guy" for weird ass information on the Nine Hells and so on. Or the DM can make up his own contacts, girlfriends, etc, without violating the novels. (PS NPC partners, or DMPCs, almost never work out. Ask about it at ENWorld.)
Charles Phipps 08-01-05, 11:06 PM	Or the DM can make up his own contacts, girlfriends, etc, without violating the novels. (PS NPC partners, or DMPCs, almost never work out. Ask about it at ENWorld.) He could...yes...he could also make his own campaign setting. The books exist to be used. Also, they've worked fine at my table since about 6th grade and given that was thirteen or so years ago, I don't actually know what you're talking about. I do forbid PC-PC relationships though, especially between dating Players. I will NEVER allow that abomination at my table again after what games it's ruined. If it wouldn't be incredibly obnoxious and overbearing of me, I'd start a no fraternization policy at my table. Suffice to say that PC-DM relationships are the only ones that can work out in my opinion because it keeps the context of the interaction based on a storytelling mindset rather than purely interactive. (Given there's only two options with the third being nonexistence, I don't know what else there is to say). I concede on most of your above post (save the Elrond bit and also I was referring to the fact Obi Wan and Yoda could kill Vader probably since Mace nearly killed Palps, they don't team up because Luke is the only one who can defeat both).
The Dreaming Duck 08-01-05, 11:51 PM	Just to add my thoughts: Eberron is inspired by the pulps. In LotR, it's true, Gandalf and Elrond do stand above everyone. But in Raiders of the Lost Ark? Indy is on his own. There's no Gandalf. In The Mummy, Rick may get help from the Magi, but they're on the same level (at best) - and neither of them are a match one-on-one for Imhotep. It's the fact that they can face such horror and somehow triumph that makes them heroes. Hellcow has said multiple times that his concern from the start was having the PCs be the people who are needed when that world-threatening situation comes along. That if the rajahs are unleashed, there is no 30th-level archmage to handle it. There are powerful allies, but they are limited. Oalian is a tree. Jaela can't leave Flamekeep. But consider other things: The Dragons of Argonnessen are out there, and they are about as powerful as you want them to be. So introduce an archmage - it just turns out that he's part of the Chamber, and he has his own agenda. For that matter, Hellcow has said that there are epic-levels among the Lords of Dust - and they are subtle folks. So, look, it's Elminster. What a helpful bookish guy he is. And, oh, we forgot to mention that he's an al'chazar rakshasa carrying out a scheme he's been working on for 1,000 years - and THAT'S why he doesn't help you, and why he send you on all these weird missions. I think a lot of people undervalue 12th-level characters. When you say "Where are the heroes?", Charles - they're out there. Brightspear the warforged from the recent dragonshard. Sir Banarak Tithon, Knight-Marshal of the Citadel. Khandan the Hammer and Meira the Huntress of the Redcloak Battaleon. They AREN'T epic level. They aren't Gandalfs. But they just might be Boromirs. What Hellcow has said is that 9th-level makes you remarkable, 12th level makes you a hero, and 20th level makes you a legend. There ARE heroes in the world - but it's a world in need of legends. And that's where you come in. Charles, you also said "Where's Indy without Bellaq?" But Eberron specifically addresses that on page 252 of the ECS. It even includes Halas Martain, who is pretty transparently supposed to BE Bellaq. The point there is to have villains that have the same potential as the heroes and advance as they do. If Indy is 5th level, Bellaq shouldn't be 20th - he should be around 5th-6th. By the time Indy is 20th level, Bellaq is 20th level too. This is exactly what the ECS suggests, and what Hellcow has suggested doing with villains like the Lord of Blades - keeping them low enough level to begin with that low level characters can potentially survive them, but advancing them as the PCs grow in power. The thing about looking at all the horror in the world and saying "Where are the heroes?" - they're out there. The Silver Flame. The Gatekeepers. But they aren't strong wnough to solve the problems on their own. Eberron IS a world with problems, and if there were 40th level PC-like characters out there, how would they have let it get so messed up? Why haven't they gotten to the bottom of the Mourning already? Why wouldn't they use their power to stop the horrors of the Last War - or on the other hand, when you consider what a 40th-level character can do, if they'd chosen sides, how much more devastation should a 100-year war have caused? FR is a world that has heroes; Eberron is a world that desperately needs them. In part that's the pulp - the PCs are special, unique, above the average person - but it's also the essence of noir. There is no safety net. There is no one who will fix things if you screw up. And the people who are powerful and seem like heroes? They're probably demons ro dragons with their own agendas. Nothing can be trusted. It's a different tone, and if you don't like it, bring in Elminster and have fun with it. But I can see what they were trying to do when they chose not to have epic allies, and personally, I like the tone it creates.
Reinforcements 08-02-05, 02:00 AM	Only the PCs can kill Manshoon or Fzoul. That's the way Fantasy works. Unlike (Psi)Severedhead, I make sure my PCs are aware they are in a fantasy story. If the PCs say "Let Elminster do it", yes, Elminster can buckle up and go challenge Fzoul...and he'll die. Then the PCs cowardice has left an innocent man's death on their conscience. This is a point you keep coming back to, but it's something that really rubs me the wrong way. It's too much of a cop-out, a deus-ex-machina. The PCs should be special, even special among heroes, but it should be through their own deeds and abilities, not because there's some vague force that decided (apparently randomly) that they are "chosen." That's bull. It might be one thing if they were about on par with the good NPCs in question, but you can't very well expect the PCs to just assume they're "chosen." Your response to, "Why can't Elminster do it?" is apparently, "Because he can't," which is crap. It may be fantasy, but it should also be a world with some semblance of logic and reason, and as far as I'm concerned some vague references to fate don't cut it when I know there's a wizard or twenty out there who'd be willing to do the job and who could do it much, much easier than myself if there weren't an invisible tag on my shirt reading, "Hi! I'm The Chosen One!"
Charles Phipps 08-02-05, 02:16 AM	It's not necessarily because of some vague "destiny" (though in the case of the dragon prophecy, it is). It's actually more because of factors that the villains that are going to draw the attention of superheroes are those who can stand on them mano a mano. Yes, if you can get to Elminster equivalent and to go chasing after the lower level villain then that's not particularly heroic behavior. However, you're right then that it will probably be done by Elminster rather than them. The convincing of him to serve as their hit man will probably be a good a subtitute for the adventure confrontation itself anyway. However, it's DM's fiat to basically do what has to be done to preserve the sanctity of the game. If that means Elminster running away or being unable to stop the monster then that's how it works.
Just another user 08-02-05, 03:10 AM	... (with the 120% XP penalty that Elminster takes for multiclassing of course.... shouldn't he be LOSING xp every time he kills something? ;) Hey,maybe that is the reason he never intervene personally and always send adventurers to save the world. ;)
Brastan 08-02-05, 03:57 AM	A 20th level warrior is a 20th level character and thus is a significant bad-ass. However he is only a CR 10 encounter so he should be nice be a reasonable fight for high level PCs. I thought that was CR 19. (Not that he's worth his CR.) My apologies, you are correct. Ya, he's not really worth the CR but the NPC class levels help dilute high level NPC characters who would otherwise be more powerful than necessary. "Because he can't" Or won't? What if Elminster had his own shadowy agenda beyond being the center of all that is good? He doesn't get involved because he is manipulating hundreds of adventures who could all possibly become sources of great evil if left to their own devices. PCs aren't chosen because they are "the chosen" but because he needs to be sure of them and their motives. However all the PCs my know is that they are "the chosen." Once they have done the task that he could have easily done himself, he can then let them run around on their own and focus his efforts on the next group. This were I think the noir side of Eberron becomes important to remember. Everyone with power has some private agenda that will, at some point, conflict with the goals of the Player's characters. Even the most altruistic motives could contain darker elements. This will inevitably push the PCs into conflict. The published adventures make that fairly clear, especially by the end of Grasp of the Emerald Claw. Why didn't Merrix hunt down the objects himself since they were so important to him? From what I gather he's quite busy with other affairs like maintaining his secrecy which he needs more than the items. Were are the mentors? I point to the Wayfinder Foundation. Lord Boroman ir'Dayne reminds me of the Bruce Wayne from Batman Beyond. A former adventure with deep pockets and dreams of philanthropic grandeur, but with a secret that he needs good people help him with. I look forward to a more extensive treatment of this organization. The King of Breland also seems perfectly suit the role of mentor. As for benefits of mentors the DMG2 gives some ideas on that.
Just another user 08-02-05, 04:15 AM	If the PCs say "Let Elminster do it", yes, Elminster can buckle up and go challenge Fzoul...and he'll die. Then the PCs cowardice has left an innocent man's death on their conscience. innocent? I thought you were talking about Elminster. But, you see, is that the problem, if Elminster (who is a epic level ubermunchined archwizard die against Fzoul, how can the PCs, that probably are not even 20 level hope to, I don't say win, but even just come out alive?
Charles Phipps 08-02-05, 10:06 AM	innocent? I thought you were talking about Elminster. But, you see, is that the problem, if Elminster (who is a epic level ubermunchined archwizard die against Fzoul, how can the PCs, that probably are not even 20 level hope to, I don't say win, but even just come out alive? Because PCs are heroes. And Elminster is an Archwizard. Heroes do the impossible. Edit: Allow me to rephrase that. Basically, Elminster and King Azoun amongst other high level PC class characters are expected in my games to not be "heroes" because they're Archwizards and Kings, people who might be personally very powerful but they lack the diversity of skills necessary to handle the evils that the party should be uniquely suited to tackling. I'm reminded of the Justice League and Superman. Even if Superman exists (and he's a poor analogy because Superman is a hero), the players are necessary because there are opponents that Superman would lose to 10-10 times. The players because of their own abilities and experience in things like "getting in and out of Mordor" are those who can succeed in the tasks they're called to. The best way to think of a modern analogy for 'adventurers' is a black ops team. Players are Alias, 24's Jack Baur, type individuals. Folk like Elminster can manage to create basically tank or army equivalents (often by raising an army) while players do the Metal Gear Solid thing. It's ultimately these "black op" style missions that are what are going to allow the players to be able to go, eliminate the bad guy, and disarm the Ring/Nuclear weapon that will allow the salvation of the Kingdom. That sound more reasonable?
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-02-05, 11:55 AM	Because PCs are heroes. And Elminster is an Archwizard. Those other high-level good NPCs are heroes too. You can find this out by reading the novels. Allow me to rephrase that. Basically, Elminster and King Azoun amongst other high level PC class characters are expected in my games to not be "heroes" because they're Archwizards and Kings, people who might be personally very powerful All right so far, but please note that some of these high-level good NPCs are available to adventure and have little such responsibilities. but they lack the diversity of skills necessary to handle the evils that the party should be uniquely suited to tackling. Wrong. Very wrong. Read the novels Their skills are often more diverse than that possessed by the heroes. I'm reminded of the Justice League and Superman. Even if Superman exists (and he's a poor analogy because Superman is a hero), the players are necessary because there are opponents that Superman would lose to 10-10 times. And if Superman can't beat these opponents, what chance would weaker players have? The players because of their own abilities and experience in things like "getting in and out of Mordor" are those who can succeed in the tasks they're called to. Many of those good high-level NPCs, having been adventurers and pulled off such stunts, are also capabile of using their own abilities and experience in things like "getting in and out of Mordor". The best way to think of a modern analogy for 'adventurers' is a black ops team. Players are Alias, 24's Jack Baur, type individuals. Folk like Elminster can manage to create basically tank or army equivalents (often by raising an army) while players do the Metal Gear Solid thing. I disagree. While Elminster and other such high-level good NPCs might be capable of acting like tanks, they're also capable of acting like a black ops team. They've done it before, including the younger, healthier, saner, braver good-aligned NPCs who have little responsibility and are still adventuring.
Charles Phipps 08-02-05, 12:03 PM	Those other high-level good NPCs are heroes too. You can find this out by reading the novels. I've read the novels thank you very much. All right so far, but please note that some of these high-level good NPCs are available to adventure and have little such responsibilities. I know. I've included Alias and Allusair along with Dragonbait as members of the party as henchmen on occasion. The Players will always be the ones in the right place at the right time though. Wrong. Very wrong. Read the novels Their skills are often more diverse than that possessed by the heroes. While certainly there are ADVENTURERS in the novels. These make up a small percentage, see Drizzt and Arilyn vs. the Chosen Ones. And if Superman can't beat these opponents, what chance would weaker players have? Probably none, but players do it all the time anyway. That's why they have courage. Many of those good high-level NPCs, having been adventurers and pulled off such stunts, are also capabile of using their own abilities and experience in things like "getting in and out of Mordor". There are 11 other Stargate teams on Stargate SG-1 but that doesn't change that SG-1 always ends up saving the day. Not because I assume the other team sucks ass from combat points of view either or are filled with lilly livered cowards or incompetents. I disagree. While Elminster and other such high-level good NPCs might be capable of acting like tanks, they're also capable of acting like a black ops team. They've done it before, including the younger, healthier, saner, braver good-aligned NPCs who have little responsibility and are still adventuring. They have more important things to do as leadership rather than serve as black ops teams, or if not MORE important (because you fail, you die) then stuff that's certainly going to occupy their attention more than this. Allusair may know that if the PCs fail then Sauron will destroy all creation but she's still got to administer and hold down the fort during the time of chaos....and trust the PCs will handle the darkness.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-02-05, 01:05 PM	There are 11 other Stargate teams on Stargate SG-1 but that doesn't change that SG-1 always ends up saving the day. Not because I assume the other team sucks ass from combat points of view either or are filled with lilly livered cowards or incompetents. Well, let's see. First of all, the "level differential" between SG-1 and the other SGs isn't all that high. This is why the other SGs get sent on missions. If SG-1 was so much better than the other SG teams (like the Simbul is so much better than the PCs), then SG-1 would be sent on every mission. Either that, or someone would declare them "too valuable" to ever use. (The latter doesn't happen - it would be a really boring show if that were the case.) I've read the novels thank you very much. You don't act like it. You seem to assume these uber-NPCs don't have the kinds of skills clearly displayed in the novels. They have more important things to do as leadership rather than serve as black ops teams, or if not MORE important (because you fail, you die) then stuff that's certainly going to occupy their attention more than this. Allusair may know that if the PCs fail then Sauron will destroy all creation but she's still got to administer and hold down the fort during the time of chaos....and trust the PCs will handle the darkness. There are plenty of other good administrators. That's what stewards are for (the kind that don't stab you in the back, that is). And if she wants to sit and run things from the back, there are plenty of other uber-NPCs with little responsibility that would do it instead.
makeshiftwings 08-02-05, 01:06 PM	But the rules, the fluff, the novels, and their usage in published adventurers ALL fail to support your theory. Elminster is more powerful than any PC wizard you can create without going into obscene epic levels. It's a fact. He is a better adventurer than almost any adventurer out there. Using the game rules, there is no way you could create an enemy that Elminster would lose to but your PC would win against in a fair fight. You're saying Elminster would die if he fought Manshoon, but in a straight up combat, if you gave me Elminster and you played Manshoon, I would destroy Manshoon in a round or two. Some 20th level non-twinked PC wizard is going to have a much harder time taking on Manshoon. And you can't just always have every PC in every game be "chosen by fate". A lot of players don't like being the Chosen Ones; they get tired of it. It seems like nothing they do is their own accomplishment, they just automatically know they're going to win and their path is set because that's what fate says. Even then, in FR it's hard to even say that the PCs are "the chosen of the gods", since the book clearly says that no, Elminster is the Chosen One of Mystra, and Fzoul is the Chosen One of Bane, and "chosen by the god" templates are for NPCs only, not PCs. You need to ask yourself why they are there. You, apparently, want an Elminster in your campaign who is a feeble, inept wizard who can't do anything on his own, will die in combat with almost any villain of decent strength, and needs to get the PCs to all his work for him. So why can't this guy be level 5? Or even a reasonable level 16? Why does he need to be level 40, half-god, full of NPC-only feats and spells, possessing tons of ultra-powerful items, and the most powerful NPC in the universe? He doesn't. And by making him that way, you're completely contradicting the idea that he can't stand up in a fight and that he's inept.
Charles Phipps 08-02-05, 01:09 PM	There are plenty of other good administrators. That's what stewards are for (the kind that don't stab you in the back, that is). And if she wants to sit and run things from the back, there are plenty of other uber-NPCs with little responsibility that would do it instead. I don't agree. At heart, the PCs are part of a handful and the only ones that can do it. It falls upon the DM to justify this but he shouldn't necessarily just throw them out. Part of the point of Eberron to me and high level characters is the fact that Keith seemed to have put a deliberate cap on the levels so that we have a understanding of the context of the power levels of the country. This is actually very helpful because it does give us a general feeling of accomplishment that 13th level individuals are world shaking while 15th through 20th level people REALLY ARE those whom are the most powerful beings of all time. To reiterate my point though, I'm not interested really in forwarding the idea that there SHOULD be hundreds of archwizards of immense levels and awesome 30th level warriors in every port that are bedecked out in their Hackmasters +12. I am forwarding the idea though that there shouldn't be necessarily a cap on the level of abilities of NPCs because of the assumption that such levels degrade the PCs. In a pure Eberron game, even if you are 20th level human being and THE best of all human beings, there's still plenty of cannon creatures and beings that presumably will be just as powerful or the like. Daelkyrs, Rakashasas, Coatl, the Giants of Xen'Drick if we ever encountered a survivor, and probably Dragons have plenty of 30th+ level archwizards. This is in cannon and the question is really "Why does a Dragon not swoop in during these things?" The questions that hold back say....the most powerful wizard on Earth....should concievably hold them back as well. At heart, I don't believe that gaming should be reduced to "King of the Pond." I still follow the old Gary Gygas rule really. At lower levels, the PCs fight orcs, at mid level the PCs fight Trolls, at high levels the PCs fight archwizards and dragons, at Epic levels the PCs fight Gods. The key is though that there's always a bigger fish. You need to ask yourself why they are there. You, apparently, want an Elminster in your campaign who is a feeble, inept wizard who can't do anything on his own, will die in combat with almost any villain of decent strength, and needs to get the PCs to all his work for him. So why can't this guy be level 5? Or even a reasonable level 16? Why does he need to be level 40, half-god, full of NPC-only feats and spells, possessing tons of ultra-powerful items, and the most powerful NPC in the universe? He doesn't. And by making him that way, you're completely contradicting the idea that he can't stand up in a fight and that he's inept. When I run MERPs, Gandalf is a 36th level Wizard and Aragorn is damn near close to it in warrior skills. When I describe my Elminster though, I'm describing the fact that his personality has finally collapsed due to the stress of his great power and the fact that he no longer has a need, desire, or want to engage in battle with other people. In the context of the game, he's sick of the killing and the death and he's done in his part. He's saved the world enough and has passed the torch (or more precisely thrown it). There's a reason that Elminster's adventures by Ed are practically all in the past. It's not about Elminster though. It's also about Khelban and other figures. They are knowledgable and that means they have high levels. A 5th level Elminster simply doesn't have any knowledge whatsoever about anything worthwhile. A Monk at 3rd level can have an extraordinarily high wisdom score but he's worthless for advice because he will lack any form of wisdom a 12th to 20th level one has. The status of "Chosen of Mystra" are really unimportant in the abilities that they bestow. It is symbolic of their role as loregivers and champions of knowledge. It's not about the PCs status as "Chosen Ones" because really, in my games, I've had the PCs lose and the planets been destroyed. It's about the fact that for whatever reason...nobody else can do it. It's not just fate but a thousand other different things. It's basically, about giving a reason that the players will accept that they are the only ones that do it. I play DC Mutants and matserminds, I play Forgotten Realms and I've never had the problems described here. Maybe my players aren't thinking deeply enough but I don't see why they should have a problem with their role as the only heroes who can get it done even at lower levels.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-02-05, 01:23 PM	To reiterate my point though, I'm not interested really in forwarding the idea that there SHOULD be hundreds of archwizards of immense levels and awesome 30th level warriors in every port that are bedecked out in their Hackmasters +12. I am forwarding the idea though that there shouldn't be necessarily a cap on the level of abilities of NPCs because of the assumption that such levels degrade the PCs. In a pure Eberron game, even if you are 20th level human being and THE best of all human beings, there's still plenty of cannon creatures and beings that presumably will be just as powerful or the like. Daelkyrs, Rakashasas, Coatl, the Giants of Xen'Drick if we ever encountered a survivor, and probably Dragons have plenty of 30th+ level archwizards. This is in cannon and the question is really "Why does a Dragon not swoop in during these things?" How many dragons are there again? They're always killing each other. A really powerful villain dragon that can avoid the rest of them only arises once a century or so. (Maybe it's the same one?) It's sort of like, how in real-life, a really good warlord doesn't crop up every year. And when they do (often multiples of them at once), there's a reason why only one of them wins. It's not necessarily the best warlord who wins (best meaning best tactician and whoever has the biggest or best-trained army), but who was closest to the capital, or who got lucky, or whoever could make the best alliances, etc. So now we've got a villainous dragon that stumbled upon a secret, or got lucky, or maybe alliances, etc, and now he's capable of ravaging Sarlona, Khorvaire, or some other part of Eberron other than Argonessen. Now the PCs have to stop him. This sort of secret/luck/alliance/etc doesn't crop up every day. If it's a local event, it's easy to explain why it's the PCs who deal with it - they were there at the right time. But if it's a world-shattering event, why wouldn't the PCs contact that far-away (non-retired) much more powerful archmage to teleport there and do the work for them? I can't think of any logical reason for the archmage to not do that. If there are only two or three archmages (other than the PC mage) in the whole setting, one being retired, one suffering from a nasty curse even he can't fix, and another who has made an alliance with the dragon, all of a sudden you can see why only the PCs can save the world this time. The questions that hold back say....the most powerful wizard on Earth....should concievably hold them back as well. Then why doesn't the most powerful wizard on Earth keep holding them back? You can't use the PCs to topple this dragon now, not when the wizard who has defeated them before is still around, or good wizard NPCs of his caliber are still capable of adventuring.
Charles Phipps 08-02-05, 01:46 PM	How many dragons are there again? They're always killing each other. A really powerful villain dragon that can avoid the rest of them only arises once a century or so. (Maybe it's the same one?) Certainly not in Eberron, the Dragons have their own civilized society as we've seen and are not the near extinct constantly warring creatures of most gamelines. Heck, they seem more peaceful and growing than even Council of Wyrm. It's sort of like, how in real-life, a really good warlord doesn't crop up every year. And when they do (often multiples of them at once), there's a reason why only one of them wins. It's not necessarily the best warlord who wins (best meaning best tactician and whoever has the biggest or best-trained army), but who was closest to the capital, or who got lucky, or whoever could make the best alliances, etc. Oddly this is what I'm trying to convey. Reasons why the PCs are the only ones who can do it. * Only they know of the threat * The threat is going to "go off" within a limited time frame. * The forces of good are divided for some reason (Knights of Solamnia are potlicking AGAIN, the elves are xenophobic AGAIN, the dwarves hate the elves AGAIN) * The villain is particularly vulnerable to the hero for some reason. * No one is taking seriously the threat for some reason (economics is a possible one) * The villain has mind controlled/made a pact to be immune to their assaults/taken steps to disable Elminsters and so on. * The cost of victory is far too high for their participation (Mutually assured magical destruction) * The PCs have a personality that sees outside the box for dealing with Sauron. So now we've got a villainous dragon that stumbled upon a secret, or got lucky, or maybe alliances, etc, and now he's capable of ravaging Sarlona, Khorvaire, or some other part of Eberron other than Argonessen. Now the PCs have to stop him. This sort of secret/luck/alliance/etc doesn't crop up every day. The PCs are basically born into times of chaos. Times when dozens of threats emerge at once and require a consistent and tireless opposition of evil. Sometimes, they don't of course and these are lower key adventures where you solve murders in Sharn every weak but this is a different kind of situation I think we're both talking about. If it's a local event, it's easy to explain why it's the PCs who deal with it - they were there at the right time. But if it's a world-shattering event, why wouldn't the PCs contact that far-away (non-retired) much more powerful archmage to teleport there and do the work for them? I can't think of any logical reason for the archmage to not do that. If there are only two or three archmages (other than the PC mage) in the whole setting, one being retired, one suffering from a nasty curse even he can't fix, and another who has made an alliance with the dragon, all of a sudden you can see why only the PCs can save the world this time. The problem is that this is so incredibly contrived. The Pontiff of the Silver Flame being a cute little girl who looks like Ruri from Nadesico and needs her magic castle is a wonderful little plotline. However, the tired old saws of the "Dwarves and Elves need to UNITE to fight the evil" is tired because its overused that they're too short sighted and stupid to stand against the evil. Then why doesn't the most powerful wizard on Earth keep holding them back? You can't use the PCs to topple this dragon now, not when the wizard who has defeated them before is still around, or good wizard NPCs of his caliber are still capable of adventuring. Gary Gygax said that the Dungeon Master actually existed in the context of the worlds of Dungeons and Dragons. He called the thing that the DM played to be the role of "Fate." In this respect, the things that the wizards that are involved and ancient heroes fail at the time they do because of the Hand of Fate. This may represent in the context of the adventure many normal and mundane things. The ancient druid who guards it is dying of old age, the magics failed after centuries of working because well....they never could last forever to begin with, and all the chaos of other evils the PCs do have fallout. Some of my best games have been Morgoth to Sauron transistions where the PCs defeat of one evil merely has the darkness have fallout that spawns a new one.
Thievingrouge 08-02-05, 05:26 PM	This is exactly why I hate the realms. There is always someone more qualified (And willing) to take the job.... It turns Adventuring into a factory job. The realms adds more by making it so you will never save the world, because you aren't 40th level, or a god. Your career involves saving nothing but oiddly litlle towns, because thats all you can do. BTW insanity is no excuse for epic charaters..... pop them with a heal spell...
Charles Phipps 08-02-05, 05:43 PM	Maybe I'm defying logic here, in which case I apologize to everyone here. Basically, I just don't see how the players can't save the world or do all the great adventures. When we did the Time of Troubles, the Chosen Ones gathered the armies of good to oppose Bane but it was the heroes who helped Torm destroy him. And I don't think Cure Insanity will cure Insanity brought about by trauma or despair. It only heals deliberately inflicted and biological.
makeshiftwings 08-03-05, 06:09 PM	I still think a world full of epic good-guy NPCs will come down to two choices, niether of which are good: A) These epic NPCs are active in the world, and do their part to fight evil like they always did, which leaves the PCs in their shadows constantly. B) Your take, where the DM has to constantly make up bizarre excuses for every single epic NPC as to why they are sitting on their ass all day every day instead of doing the things their descriptions say they do. Elminster's depressed. The Simbul's insane. The Lords of Waterdeep are too busy figuring out city taxes. In the end, you never actually use them as written; they never get a chance to use any of their stats or abilities, and they could then have their stats just left out of the book completely, or be replaces by the same personalities with low-level classes. You don't need a 40th level half-god to be a bitter wise old man who can tell you where the artifact in the abyss is. You need a 9th level expert with Research and Skill Focus - Knowledge(The Planes), and a decent collection of ancient tomes.
Charles Phipps 08-03-05, 06:37 PM	B) Your take, where the DM has to constantly make up bizarre excuses for every single epic NPC as to why they are sitting on their ass all day every day instead of doing the things their descriptions say they do. Elminster's depressed. The Simbul's insane. The Lords of Waterdeep are too busy figuring out city taxes. In the end, you never actually use them as written; they never get a chance to use any of their stats or abilities, and they could then have their stats just left out of the book completely, or be replaces by the same personalities with low-level classes. You don't need a 40th level half-god to be a bitter wise old man who can tell you where the artifact in the abyss is. You need a 9th level expert with Research and Skill Focus - Knowledge(The Planes), and a decent collection of ancient tomes. Basically Makeshiftwings I'm going to acede somewhat to both you and (Psi)Severed Head's arguements that there is merit. Also, no one likes repeated arguements and this thread has done well without retreading old ground. We've managed to cover a good deal of ground on the variations on things. One reason I am so adamant on the subject of high level NPCs is the already described mentoring role of them in the context of the storyland. I've mentioned why I think they're so important but I haven't mentioned WHY exactly they are so important. The first importance of a mentor figure is the fact that they can serve as a powerful influence not only on the PC's life but also a powerful influence on the player's impression on a setting as well. Players, I have found, will respect a high level and 'iconic' figure's words and impressions on things far more than they'll respect the words of say "Farmer Brown." They're good vehicles for giving a DM's "straight talk" on a setting and its aspects. The next role that high level NPCs serve is also the role of role models and the role of magic items historians. King Arthur's sword Excalibur, the Staff of Magius, and the Towers of High Sorcery are not important because of their magical effects but because of the sense of history that accompanies the weapon. It fleshes out the setting to have there to be great and glorious heroes that challenged the forces of evil and triumphed in the past. Without this sense of the Mythic then the game setting is dull. It's the very reason I believe Greyhawk never caught on, Spelljammer, and Planescape. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance both have the sense of mythic behind it. Suddenly the world needing great champions of good in it when it never did before is ridiculous. Also, being a trailblazer is often ridiculous and somewhat unseemly. Luke Skywalker's journey is insipid and idiotic without the idea of becoming a Jedi. It's not to become a kid with magical powers but a member of an ancient and powerful brotherhood of the past reborn that drives his character arc. Similiar is the arc of Sturm Brightblade and Sir Gawain who wished to join the Knights of the Round Table. There must be power and dignity to the place a PC comes from who wishes to become a member of a brotherhood. On a related note, just to address one aspect of what I've talked about before. You basically keep trying to make the campaign world into the 'real world' which I think is a general mistake. I don't need ridiculous excuses for why the PCs will suceed where everyone else will fail. The reason is simple, the PCs have 'Arete.' Levels are a measure of skill and power a person have but that ultimately is not important in clashes between good and evil. The least 1st level PC has the quality of Arete while a 20th level may or may not. They are born to 'greatness' and will do 'great' things because they are who they are. Their personalities, quirks, and feelings leading them to do things no one else can do. That is the nature of storytelling.
makeshiftwings 08-03-05, 06:58 PM	The least 1st level PC has the quality of Arete while a 20th level may or may not. They are born to 'greatness' and will do 'great' things because they are who they are. Their personalities, quirks, and feelings leading them to do things no one else can do. That is the nature of storytelling. I do see what you're saying, but I feel that the d&d level system sort of forces "Arete" along with levels. You can't be "just another 40th level sorceror" just because you're an NPC. A 40th level human sorcerer is supposed to be born to greatness and the vessel for doing great things and an icon among all the people of the world. Granted, a 3rd level NPC can be a famous king, but it's hard to imagine a 40th level NPC being a nobody. This is further compounded by the fact that in FR most of those characters are based on novels full of their legendary exploits and tales of their greatness that far overshadows what most of the PCs can do. I still think you can have mentors without them being epic. I think mentors are important when characters are below 6th level, and then less important as you get toward 12th. After that, the PCs should be doing their own thing, not still striving to be like someone else. Having mentor figures around when you're 35th level is just silly, especially if your DM doesn't really plan on doing an epic-level campaign. You said earlier that you'd place Aragorn as a 35th level figher. I'd put him more towards 12th at most. Aragorn's important because he's the King, not because he has Devastating Critical and a Strength of 42.
Charles Phipps 08-03-05, 07:23 PM	I do see what you're saying, but I feel that the d&d level system sort of forces "Arete" along with levels. You can't be "just another 40th level sorceror" just because you're an NPC. A 40th level human sorcerer is supposed to be born to greatness and the vessel for doing great things and an icon among all the people of the world. Granted, a 3rd level NPC can be a famous king, but it's hard to imagine a 40th level NPC being a nobody. This is further compounded by the fact that in FR most of those characters are based on novels full of their legendary exploits and tales of their greatness that far overshadows what most of the PCs can do. Put a pin in the bolded part, I'll come back to that later. Levels are in my campaign, skill and nothing more. I will confess though that I generally do subscribe to the level limits Keith does place in things. 20th level folk ARE legends. I merely point out that some legends never particularly die in these strange worlds. Erandis Vol for instance, the Quori, and Dragon Elders are all individuals who have many lifetimes to perfect their craft. I will admit, that in my campaigns, most of the Archwizards and so on will be about 13th level in Eberron. Also, the "Arthurs" and "Huma Dragonbanes" who ended the Daelkyr wars and were the last surviving members of the Giant Race will tend to also be very dead. You don't need Huma Dragonbane to be alive for Sturm Brightblade to revere him. It actually helps he's not. Ditto the Kingpriest or Fistandantilus. Indeed, their being dead probably enhances their mystique. The reason the 13th levels are 13th levels though is artificially because the knowledge isn't there rather than it's impossible to become more skilled without doing something grand. What is Masamune's level? I'd definitely put him at 20th level because...well...he makes one b*tchin sword. However, he perfected his craft on his own or inherited it from sources not otherwise common. This allows me a certain freedom. Say, were I to time travel back to the era of the Giants of Xen'drick. I'd decidedly not have them all being 1st - 3rd level Experts for the most part. Instead, I had "Average" members of the race with 13th level in Wizardry or Artificer and the "higher levels" having 40th or so levels. The knowledge of the secrets of EVERYTHING was available to them. I have similiar rules, to a lesser extent, with the Rakashasas. Their least members are powerful warriors, wizards, and clerics while their elder members are godlike beings. This means I have a "pre established" source for evil when the PCs grow higher and company to keep. The 13th level Cleric/12th level Coatl? That's just normal. Their culture had more knowledge. It's why elves in my game tend to be about 4th level and Dwarves 3rd level with even halflings/gnomes 2nd (along with warforged). Their expanded lifespans. Back to the "pin" topic. As for "overshadowing" the PCs, ultimately I think we need to take a step back for a moment and examine what we really mean by this. All of us have been focusing on earthshaking campaigns where the Apocalypse Stone is just around the corner. I've admitted my preference for such games and the benefits thereof but these sorts of games are actually fairly uncommon. If the characters are in Sharn solving "Jack the Ripper" style murders, the emotional resonance and feeling are no less valid when the villain is captured and done with. Also, quite simply, do you expect the Elminster equivalent to involve himself? The question really is whether or not the PCs at first WANT to be the people who ultimately destroy Erandis Vol as we're deciding here or are content instead to hunt Vampires into higher levels like Rudolf Van Ritchen in Ravenloft who was a great character but whom no one ever expected to go fight Vecna I think. I still think you can have mentors without them being epic. I think mentors are important when characters are below 6th level, and then less important as you get toward 12th. After that, the PCs should be doing their own thing, not still striving to be like someone else. Having mentor figures around when you're 35th level is just silly, especially if your DM doesn't really plan on doing an epic-level campaign. I always plan for epic level campaigns, I always assume the game will be forever at a start....it leaves things open. Also, even if the PCs become brothers to their mentors, there's always a strong impression left behind and it's a sad day rather than a joyous one when they have nothing more to teach. [QUOTE=makeshiftwings]You said earlier that you'd place Aragorn as a 35th level figher. I'd put him more towards 12th at most. Aragorn's important because he's the King, not because he has Devastating Critical and a Strength of 42. I converted MERPS stats for him, not because he was Aragorn. Nevertheless, the ancient man is a man who has ridden for many decades and fought continually against all forces of evil. Were this not conversion, I would agree with you largely, though I'd put him at a tad higher at maybe 16th. I view Aragorn as equal or superior to Isildur and only weaker perhaps than Berem.
Charles Phipps 08-03-05, 07:28 PM	Keith's own thoughts FYI for discussion First off, you've just described the role of the Chamber. For that matter, you've described the role of the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust – with the exception that if it's the Chamber, they are hopefully acting in the cause of the greater good. You can also use Jaela as such a patron, and the question of "why can't she do the tasks that need to be done" is simple: she can't leave Flamekeep. Why does an NPC have to be epic-level – or even have PC class levels – to serve as such a patron? Why can't he simply be wealthy or have influential friends? If he's epic-level, he CAN solve the problems he's having the PCs handle, and he can kick their asses if he needs to. But what if he's an 18th-level commoner on the city council? He's got connections. He's VERY good at what he does. He's respected. He's got some money. All things the PCs don't have. But when the Tarrasque attacks Sharn, he's not handling it himself. Now, some heroes of the war ARE still alive. As noted on page 140 of Sharn, Khandan Dol is the subject of many a song and story, and he's "considered to be one of the deadliest men in the kingdom." But he's a warrior 11 / fighter 5. One more thing to note (and I realize I probably answered your question with my first sentence, but I'm going into more detail for the benefit of others): I've said many times that I don't believe that NPCs automatically gain experience and advance in the same manner as PCs. That many soldiers fought through the last war and still emerged as 1st-3rd level warriors. An even more radical idea? I think NPCs can LOSE experience. I might put a hero in the game who at one time might have been an epic level fighter and say "But he's wasted away, a shadow of his former self – and now he's just a 10th-level fighter." Tenth level still makes him extremely dangerous quite possibly a match for ol' Khandan – but he's no longer the legendary figure he once was. You are certainly free to create an epic-level patron if you want the PCs to have one! But in designing Eberron, our idea all along was that this is a world without epic-level heroes – and they are waiting for you to fill that void. It's something I've discussed in some detail in the past and on other threads. Most recently, you can find some of my thoughts on the matter in message 370 of this thread, a few pages back. In part, it's a matter of scale. If most of the people in the world ARE 1st or 2nd level, a 6th level character is impressive and a 12th level character can be a hero. In a world crawling with 18th level NPCs, you NEED to be 40th level to stand out. In Eberron, you don't. There are epic level foes out there, among the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, the Chamber, and others. There are foes I'd have advance in level with the party, to have the sense of the recurring villain who grows as you do - like the Lord of Blades. There are characters like Oalian and Jaela, who are powerful but limited. But in designing Eberron, the idea that high-level characters were few and far between was intentional. Mordain is 18th-level and he's a legend. We could have made Jaela 40th level and we chose not to: if you get to 40th level, you're the first to do it in centuries. In part, it's pulp - the heroes are special and unique, just like Doc Savage or the Shadow stand out from those around them. And at the same time, it ties to the noir feel: this is a world where the forces of evil ARE more powerful than those of good, where their own internal struggles are the main thin holding their power in check. There's no one out there with the power to save you if you fail: when the rajah is freed, you need to find a way to defeat it. (OK, that's not entirely true: dragons could show up to help. On the other hand, the dragons are not necessarily GOOD: they devastated the entire civilization of Xen'drik, and countless innocents must have died in that action. They may act to save EBERRON... but their cure could be just as deadly to humanity as the alternative.) Now, for everyone else who's been waiting for answers: at the moment I'm working on a few big things that I HAVE to get done before GenCon. It may be a few days before I get time for another round of answers, and I still have about 40 questions in the backlog. So, be patient: I'll get to everything eventually. I don't agree totally with him for MY CAMPAIGN but that's where it diverges from cannon and that's the way every game must be customized for their individuals....it certainly is as good an answer as there can be though. I love his wasting away bit too. In my campaigns, I also have a quality where people who DO become immortal and gain unnatural godlike power slowly start to lose their humanity as well. Vampires aren't evil because they are bloodthirsting murderers, many vampires become so because of the centuries of time give them perspectives that are vastly alien to human society...much like lichs. Were I to do "Chosen" then it would probably be with the knowledge at some points they don't even have remotely applicable viewpoints on the world. Dragons and the Dragon Prophecy are a particular view. They will not go against the prophecy even if it says their universe is toast.
makeshiftwings 08-03-05, 09:33 PM	Well, for the record, I definitely don't have a problem with dead epic NPCs or wasted away to level 10 former epic NPCs. But I agree with almost everything Keith said in regards to active good guy epic NPCs, and I'm glad they went in the direction they did for Eberron. I've admitted my preference for such games and the benefits thereof but these sorts of games are actually fairly uncommon. If the characters are in Sharn solving "Jack the Ripper" style murders, the emotional resonance and feeling are no less valid when the villain is captured and done with. Also, quite simply, do you expect the Elminster equivalent to involve himself? The question really is whether or not the PCs at first WANT to be the people who ultimately destroy Erandis Vol as we're deciding here or are content instead to hunt Vampires into higher levels like Rudolf Van Ritchen in Ravenloft who was a great character but whom no one ever expected to go fight Vecna I think. Well, part of it is that if your characters are playing local and low-level plots, then they don't need an epic level NPC around to show up and slay gods while they're on their lunch break. So a campaign with no epic-level good NPCs allows both low-level local play AND epic save-the-world play just fine. But a campaign full of epic-level good guys only allows low-level local play, and even then, if it was in FR there would probably be a "low level" 18th level wizard selling wands just around the corner in any village you go to.
Charles Phipps 08-03-05, 09:39 PM	But a campaign full of epic-level good guys only allows low-level local play Okay, since it obviously doesn't inhbit MY players. Why does it inhibit yours? Is it a mindset, player actions, or what?
makeshiftwings 08-03-05, 11:48 PM	But a campaign full of epic-level good guys only allows low-level local play Okay, since it obviously doesn't inhbit MY players. Why does it inhibit yours? Is it a mindset, player actions, or what? Well, my quote sounds weird taken out of context. What I meant is that somewhere like FR tends to inhibit the high-level save-the-world type quests if you use the NPCs, for the reasons mentioned above. Just that either the players are asking "Why aren't any of the uber NPCs helping us? Why is everyone sitting around letting the fate of the world rest on the shoulders of people half their level?" or, if the uber NPCs DO help, they're asking "Why should we even bother doing anything at all if Khelben and the Simbul can just snap their fingers and solve all the world's problems?" Plus, there's just something cool about knowing you're one of the best in the world. Eberron gives you a chance to be one of the most powerful human wizards in existence, or the most feared warrior in Breland, or the most daring rogue in Sharn. In FR, you are basically a nobody your entire career, unless your DM decides to let you play up into obscene epic levels, which I usually don't.
Charles Phipps 08-04-05, 01:43 PM	Well, my quote sounds weird taken out of context. What I meant is that somewhere like FR tends to inhibit the high-level save-the-world type quests if you use the NPCs, for the reasons mentioned above. Just that either the players are asking "Why aren't any of the uber NPCs helping us? Why is everyone sitting around letting the fate of the world rest on the shoulders of people half their level?" or, if the uber NPCs DO help, they're asking "Why should we even bother doing anything at all if Khelben and the Simbul can just snap their fingers and solve all the world's problems?" Plus, there's just something cool about knowing you're one of the best in the world. Eberron gives you a chance to be one of the most powerful human wizards in existence, or the most feared warrior in Breland, or the most daring rogue in Sharn. In FR, you are basically a nobody your entire career, unless your DM decides to let you play up into obscene epic levels, which I usually don't. This sounds like a mindset problem then to me rather than a problem regarding the campaign setting though. Though I definitely can see where some players feel like having difficulty with this. 1. Players demanding hyper realism This seems to be the feeling advocated here by a great number of people. That the world must pretty much invariably make sense on numerous issues. Intangiables like 'arete' as I describe it and others are not brought into the matter. 2. Players asking for a certain amount of belief suspension There's invariably some stuff that's "off" in Eberron like the fact that Sharn is built like a Gibsonian cyberpunk city with some of the buildings probably able to hold 10 million people yet the entire place holds more like 200,000. The mammoth number of monsters and the medieval trappings against modern day. I will admit though that I admire Keith's decision to try and make a deliberate effort to make the PCs into the main heroes of the setting. It's an assumption from the start rather than the DM "carving" a place for the Pcs into the setting. (Psi)Severed Head pointed out that he didn't think I read the novels when actually they were my primary reason for thinking the way I did. Drizzt Do'urden isn't a problem but an inspiration. Drizzt is "just" a PC and his companions just a party then if the Chosen don't interfere in THEIR lives I don't see why the PCs can't do as great a deeds as they can like free Mirthil Hall, win the war of the Crystal Shard, and repulse invasions from the Drow. Even during the invasion by Menzoberrazan, Alustriel added to the conflict but it was Drizzt's companions who won the day.
Psionycx 08-04-05, 02:43 PM	You don't need Huma Dragonbane to be alive for Sturm Brightblade to revere him. It actually helps he's not. Ditto the Kingpriest or Fistandantilus. Indeed, their being dead probably enhances their mystique. Which is my point exactly. We don't need awe-inspiring NPC's alive and active in real time. Indeed, they're more of a hinderance than a help. In old school Greyhawk, there was sort of a philosophy that when individuals progressed to extremely high levels they tended to drift off to other planes and obscure interests. The lengthy list of Greyhawk "quasi-deities" going back to 1E were always remote, sort of off the map. Upon attaining super-high levels they sort of vanished from the world, generally leaving people scratching their heads and wondering what happened to them. Forgotten Realms, on the other hand, developed a philosophy that the world was all about Ed Greenwood's alter-egos and the fact that not only did everyone know exactly who they were and where they lived, but that they could reliably be expected to meddle in the affairs of everyone within their considerable reach, all day, every day. Dragonlance didn't really work that way. Indeed, that was a major part of the thrill that many people found there. The original Chronicles was all about a group of relatively low-level characters who end up having to go out and save the world. And the story revolved around them. Not around high-level personalities. And even those high-level personalities were not invincible demigods. Par-Salian was a powerful wizard but that was all that he was. He was also a tired old man. Ariakus was powerful and arrogant, but mortal enough that he could be killed like any other man. The difference between Sturm revering Huma in Dragonlance, as opposed to being a wizard in FR is that Sturm could conceivably do heroic deeds that would get over-shadowed in real time by the doings of Huma. In contrast, the average PC in FR is generally getting upstaged a lot by the big boys and girls. Eberron was designed to break that trend by making high-levels special. That is even true in general. Magic is more common in everyday life on Eberron than it is in most other settings. But that is low level magic. High level magic is still unusual and a source of awe, which makes it more dramatic and special. In FR so many people can toss 9th level spells around that they're just "normal". I guess it's a question of personality. Some people worship celebrities and derive great happiness from following their doings and idolizing them. I'm not one of those people myself, so I tend to focus more on the things around me rather than gushing over some famous person. This bleeds into my view here. I think that the setting should be the domain of the PC's, not the sandbox of super NPC's that regular PC's just happen to be allowed to play in so they can seek approval/validation by making themselves useful to their gods. I'm a Batman. Charles, you're a Robin. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just a personality thing.
Charles Phipps 08-04-05, 03:18 PM	Which is my point exactly. We don't need awe-inspiring NPC's alive and active in real time. Indeed, they're more of a hinderance than a help. Which goes against my 10 years+ of gaming. In old school Greyhawk, there was sort of a philosophy that when individuals progressed to extremely high levels they tended to drift off to other planes and obscure interests. The lengthy list of Greyhawk "quasi-deities" going back to 1E were always remote, sort of off the map. Upon attaining super-high levels they sort of vanished from the world, generally leaving people scratching their heads and wondering what happened to them. I always liked Gary Gygax's explanation here as it made sense to me that the concerns of the ultrapowerful were somewhat beyond the day to day life of mortals and I decidedly incorporate something similiar into my own campaigns. Forgotten Realms, on the other hand, developed a philosophy that the world was all about Ed Greenwood's alter-egos and the fact that not only did everyone know exactly who they were and where they lived, but that they could reliably be expected to meddle in the affairs of everyone within their considerable reach, all day, every day. I always liked Ed Greenwood's opinion that characters in Forgotten Realms who were ultra high level existed solely as the generals and movers of shakers of politics rather than as just awesome entities in and of their own right. With ressurection and the like, they were VERY difficult to kill but if they were it did have Realmshaking effects. Dragonlance didn't really work that way. Indeed, that was a major part of the thrill that many people found there. The original Chronicles was all about a group of relatively low-level characters who end up having to go out and save the world. And the story revolved around them. Not around high-level personalities. And even those high-level personalities were not invincible demigods. Par-Salian was a powerful wizard but that was all that he was. He was also a tired old man. Ariakus was powerful and arrogant, but mortal enough that he could be killed like any other man. Dragonlance is an awesome novel series but until the Fifth Age was an abominable place to game. I'm going to take a moment to rant here and point out that Dragonlance is and remains one of the worst game settings ever produced by TSR up until the Age of Mortals. It's an incredibly well developed place but the entirety of the gaming world is ripped to shreds adventure wise by the low level NPCs who hog all the spotlight. In Forgotten Realms, the place is so gawd damned alien and weird that tommorrow a horde of Balors can just blow out of a hole and your characters will be required to stop them. Dragonlance, the War of the Lance had EVERYTHING handled by the heroes so that if you were playing cannon....there really was nothing that you could do. People may think Drizzt is a twink but Drizzt never killed Fzoul, Manshoon, Artemis Entrie, smashed the armies of Bane, and left the Realms a place of peace and mercy in his wake. Yes, the characters of FR have their archnemesis and stories but they LEAVE SOME FOR THE REST OF US if you catch my drift. The internal consistency of Dragonlance has always been a major turn off of the setting for me. It's like playing in the Lord of the Rings. After the defeat of Sauron, there's really not much left for your players to do and you'll always be in the shadow of Aragorn and the freaking hobbits. At least in the Realms, Elminster and company haven't been able to kill Ssass Tam or the Red Wizards or hell...THE EVIL GODS. The setting seems to have a serious aversion to letting villains be long term. The difference between Sturm revering Huma in Dragonlance, as opposed to being a wizard in FR is that Sturm could conceivably do heroic deeds that would get over-shadowed in real time by the doings of Huma. In contrast, the average PC in FR is generally getting upstaged a lot by the big boys and girls. Given my rant above, I can't honestly see how you seriously can say that about FR but not about Twinklance. I love Dragonlance but it requires MASSIVE rewriting to make workable. .Eberron was designed to break that trend by making high-levels special. That is even true in general. Magic is more common in everyday life on Eberron than it is in most other settings. But that is low level magic. High level magic is still unusual and a source of awe, which makes it more dramatic and special. In FR so many people can toss 9th level spells around that they're just "normal". I oddly agree with all of this. I'm a Batman. Charles, you're a Robin. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just a personality thing. Since the start of play my character's saved Breeland from destruction at the hands of a fleet of Beholder warships, prevented the world from being destroyed by the gathering of four ancient dragon artifacts at the antarctic, saved an emerging culture of warforged on the Forger's moon from destruction at the hands of the Quori, and the final game of the "first season" we're coming up against will banish Vol's spirit into Xoriat while killing the LoB. The characters about 13th level now. I guess your DMs just don't allow your characters to be heroic enough.
Jar Head 08-04-05, 03:56 PM	There are plenty of high level "good" NPC's in Eberron, it's just that they are busy doing something else which makes them unable to adventure. If there were a great load of adventuring "good" NPC's in Eberron, then what would our character's be needed for? What would make our character's special? We wouldn't be special. Think of it like a comet. Humans love to watch the sky and see comets go by whenever we can. What if one did it everyday? It would become less special and we'd stop carring. That's what would happen with our characters. If you had a level 39 wizard running around, the papers would have him on the front page and not our lowly player characters. It's about style, high level adventuring PC's is not part of the style of Eberron. As a DM, you can do whatever you want, but if you did that...you'd destroy what it's about. It's like putting lots of subraces in the game.
Sereno 08-04-05, 04:30 PM	Since the start of play my character's saved Breeland from destruction at the hands of a fleet of Beholder warships, prevented the world from being destroyed by the gathering of four ancient dragon artifacts at the antarctic, saved an emerging culture of warforged on the Forger's moon from destruction at the hands of the Quori, and the final game of the "first season" we're coming up against will banish Vol's spirit into Xoriat while killing the LoB. The characters about 13th level now. Just a question, how did relatively low-level characters defeat a "fleet of Beholder warships"? In the campaign before my 1st level Eberron game got started, our party of 6 16th-18th level PCs nearly got our butts handed to us by just a *pair* of (advanced) beholders. The major advancement was that they could still do magic with their central eye open -- we believe they were using Shadow Weave magic on us. I'm all for heroics, but I tend to put my players up against reasonable challenges and don't like to "deus-ex-machina" them out of ridiculously tough situations.
Insignia) 08-04-05, 04:36 PM	In FR, it's really not possible to be a better wizard than Elminster unless you play the same campaign for like a year, assuming your DM even wants to keep playing with the same characters up to level 40 (with the 120% XP penalty that Elminster takes for multiclassing of course.... shouldn't he be LOSING xp every time he kills something? ), and even then, he's going to have to make up a bunch of house-rules to let you gain similar templates like Chosen of Mystra that allow you to also be immortal, weild epic spell-like abilities at will, etc. Took me seven years of hard work and utmost dedication, backed up with huge amounts of previous experience and sheer luck. It also came with a steep price, but I'd rather not discuss it. Now that I compare that to my brief, but astonishingly succesful time in Eberron, I could almost cry. Keith said it all. Just a question, how did relatively low-level characters defeat a "fleet of Beholder warships"? He obviously invented that just for dramatic effect. Either that, or his DM has a very special place in the top-20-worst-DMs-to-have-ever-plagued-D&D Hall of Shame. ~I Edit: In reply to the original question -- Yes, they do. Not always, but exceptions don't make the rule.
Charles Phipps 08-04-05, 04:57 PM	He obviously invented that just for dramatic effect. Either that, or his DM has a very special place in the top-20-worst-DMs-to-have-ever-plagued-D&D Hall of Shame. The answer? We snuck onboard and placed Fireballs held in crystals created by our employers on their spelljammers. When they attacked, they crashed. It was a game of sneaking around, lost friends, and also judicious use of gaze reflection. Plus masequerading as mind contolled slaves. As I explained to my players early in our career "The thing to realize is very rarely will you be able to face an enemy head on. However, the thing to realize is no enemy in Eberron cannot be defeated if you keep your wits about you. It's why Vol and the Lord of Blades are demigods. They can enslave dragons and demon lords because they are just THAT smart." My favorite part of that adventure though had to be flying around in a WW1 biplane equivalent and firing the magic missle machine gun in the back against the Beholder fighter equivalents.
Insignia) 08-04-05, 05:22 PM	The latter then, I take it? It's why Vol and the Lord of Blades are demigods. They can enslave dragons and demon lords because they are just THAT smart. Hm... I seem to have missed this when I did my Eberron research. ~I
Charles Phipps 08-04-05, 05:28 PM	The latter then, I take it? I moved beyond the taste for "stand in formation and lob fireballs" approach to defeating villains when I was fifteen. Hm... I seem to have missed this when I did my Eberron research. ~I In my campaigns I've made my own opinions that levels don't make a lick of difference to the arete of a figures. Hence Vol can and does have legions of dragons working for her and a dracolich mount. The Lord of Blades commanding armies of high level monsters. This is obviously not in other people's games though and I'm sorry for mentioning it out of context. Edit- Not to be rude with my above response, I can see how it could be construed as such, instead I'd like to comment about one aspect of Eberron I really enjoy. Basically, Eberron gives me permission to be an equipment junkie. In Eberron, a holy avenger +5 is still the rarest and most valuable of artifacts with no doubt a grand history, however lesser spell-like effects can be incorporated IN PLACE of technology. Thus, my D&D/Shadowrun like fantasies are freely available to be explored with the players capable of being outfitted with weapons/explosives/artillery/vehicle analogues for military adventures. Clearly, beating two beholders is a major accomplishment in hand to hand combat and I salute the characters who did so. However, the CR go somewhat out of whack when you have more or less free permission to have your artificers in the party and otherwise make gunblade or similiar item equivalents.
Psionycx 08-04-05, 09:07 PM	And having been at this for 21 years now, I can say quite readily about that kind of munchkin roleplay: been there, done that. I always liked Gary Gygax's explanation here as it made sense to me that the concerns of the ultrapowerful were somewhat beyond the day to day life of mortals and I decidedly incorporate something similiar into my own campaigns. And indeed, Gary's philosophy colored my youthful role-playing all those (gods I feel OLD!) years ago. This extended to PC's as well, who didn't hang around squashing orcs like bugs once they reached high levels, but who also wandered off into the planes to pursue quests for divinity or do strange and fantastic things. Ed Greewood probably thought he was being less pretentious. HIS awesome NPC's weren't all uppity and turning their noses up at the plight of the common man. Nope. Old El was living in his little tower right in the middle of Shadowdale, having determined that the locale would be prime real estate for situations where he could indulge himself in meddling. Indeed, I think what bothers me the most about FR is just how "common" it has reduced the status of being high-level to. They layer more and more powers onto Elminister thinking it adds to his "mythic" quality when all it does is twink out an NPC openly based on a stereotype. They fill the Realms with ridiculously over-powered NPC's until being epic level is almost like being a farmer. Yeah, so you are one, so's the other guy down the street. There's no majesty in FR anymore. It's just a big old mess where everything has been tweaked by game designers giving vent to their own twink fantasies as if they're almost oblivious to the idea that PC's will ever have to actually exist in the setting. Historically it's been great for novels and for DM's that love to buy books full of "secrets" they don't think their players will find out about. But that's it really. I do not see how Dragonlance was "twink" other than Raistlin. Very few characters, NPC or otherwise, there ever really advance to ridiculous levels. Indeed, how many of the Heroes of the Lance were above 20th level? How many of the Dragon Highlords? I just don't see the need to have super-NPC's around for PC's to be held in inferiority to. They don't add anything in my view. And I think it's silly for someone to want to drag all the elements that they miss from another setting just because they can't comprehend why a new setting is different. Eberron was designed to let PC's have more opportunity to take center stage. They're not saving the world because Wizard the Magnificent is on the can and can't come to the phone right now. They're doing it because they are the superheroes, not the second-string being invited in to play.
Charles Phipps 08-04-05, 09:16 PM	And having been at this for 21 years now, I can say quite readily about that kind of munchkin roleplay: been there, done that. Sir, no offense, but I think you're only degrading yourself. You judge a campaign on the basis of a premise that has lead to hours of amusement and required a great deal of careful planning amongst also well designed missions...dismissing it along with days of conversations, deal making...etc. As munchkin? What exactly are your criteria exactly? The fact the enemies weren't faced directly? The fact it was based on using weapons? I sir would like you to back up your words here since I feel I've been slighted. I'd like to know what exactly qualifies as a Munchkin. You never play Call of Cthulhu where the players must stop gods like Nyarlathotep and the bound Outer God in Beyond the Mountains of Madness? You never play Indiana Jones? (it was almost a direct adaptation of Indiana Jones and the Sky Pirates with the Beholders Fleet controlled by the Aurrun) While I played that session, most of my DMs learned the art from me and I believe I've taught them well that at heart. The secret to being a good hero is to never face your foe directly but use a LOT of smokepowder along with your terrain against them. Frankly, with the focus on levels over roleplaying here I think if anyone has a right to call someone Munchkins....but I would never degrade another RPGer like that without just cause. So, please, enlighten me. I'd like to know where your prejudice against what I've said comes from? I do not see how Dragonlance was "twink" other than Raistlin. Very few characters, NPC or otherwise, there ever really advance to ridiculous levels. Indeed, how many of the Heroes of the Lance were above 20th level? How many of the Dragon Highlords? Levels don't mean anything. It's not what your stats are, its how you use them. I've seen 20th level player characters whose players rush headlong into battle and I butcher them because the Kobolds pull the rocks out from over them. I've repeated this on a dozen occasions. In Dragonlance's case, who cares if Tanis Half Elven is only 8th level. Elminster may be 26th but he doesn't wipe clean all the evil on the planet. Tanis did and that's why the gameline's War ofthe Lance period sucks. If you want to play remotely to cannon.... * All the High Lords were killed by the Heroes of the Lance * They found the Dragonlances * They stopped the production of the Dragonlances * They killed the Emperor of Ansalom * They saved Solamnia * They stopped the Dark Queen from coming into this world by destroying her gateway. Heck, even causal name drops like Fistandalius are resolved. Seriously, what ARE players supposed to do exactly during the war of the lance? Fight goblins? .I just don't see the need to have super-NPC's around for PC's to be held in inferiority to. They don't add anything in my view. And I think it's silly for someone to want to drag all the elements that they miss from another setting just because they can't comprehend why a new setting is different. I agree, but it's deeds not stats that make the difference. What PC in Dragonlance can stand up to a Hero ofthe Lance? (I think one of us is misunderstanding the other but I'm wondering where the misunderstanding is)
Majorafire77 08-04-05, 10:00 PM	In my campaigns I've made my own opinions that levels don't make a lick of difference to the arete of a figures. Hence Vol can and does have legions of dragons working for her and a dracolich mount. The Lord of Blades commanding armies of high level monsters. Well, here's the thing. You're obviously running a non-standard Eberron game, so it would make sense that you wouldn't see the problem with sticking a few high-level NPCs in there. If Vol or the LoBster has legions of dragons or supermonsters at their command, then you've completely messed up the power level presented in the ECS. That's a problem if you think that you're running a normal Eberron game. The problem is, that you don't seem to realize that many people don't play the same type of campaign as you do. In a campaign where Mr. LoB controls a crap-load of OOber monsters, he's not sending "Saber", the level 3 Fighter to get something as important as the schema in tFF, he's sending Ok-Talash Ogre Barbarian 10/ Kick-ass dude 7 to do the job instead. And let's think for a moment, who needs the Order of the Emerald Claw when they have legions of dragons ready to stomp the crap out of anyone who dares to oppose them? To put it simply: you're effectively running an FR campaign in Khorvaire
Charles Phipps 08-04-05, 10:09 PM	Well, here's the thing. You're obviously running a non-standard Eberron game, so it would make sense that you wouldn't see the problem with sticking a few high-level NPCs in there. If Vol or the LoBster has legions of dragons or supermonsters at their command, then you've completely messed up the power level presented in the ECS. That's a problem if you think that you're running a normal Eberron game. I'm presenting the idea, and do apologize though for my confusion though. Oddly enough, I don't use those creatures very often and only as main villains though. You're right though and as nonstandard as I am...I shall back down from any claims of authenticity to my campaign.
Ryan_Singer 08-06-05, 04:37 AM	The issue as I see it is thus: Very low level PC's should have role models, but by 5th or sixth level, should be more self-focused and should be already having at least a localized impact on the setting. There is already a story/rule mechanic to handle this. Encourage that at least 1 or two players grab the Apprentice feat from the DMG II at first level (the start of the campaign). Use the optional rule that when you outgrow your master (6th level), the feat becomes the mentor feat. This way, at low levels characters have someone to look up to, but the characters quickly grow up and become role models themselves.
nyysjan 08-06-05, 01:41 PM	Charles Pipps, as far as i can see your arguiment has consistent of "because i say so", the only one that even seems to hold water is the one about the Dragons of Argonessen. But even that falls short, the Dragons can and will act when necessary, but their concerns are such that when they do mere human kingdoms or even hole continents end up razed, turned upside down, or utterly annihilated. They do not stop from acting because the Heroes are some chosen ones. Nor do they walk down the streets talking about the price of fish. The PC's should not be heroes only for "because" but for the fact that they are capable and willing to act where others are not, a hero is a hero because he is willing to risk his/her life to help others, not because some obscure prophecy or legend says so.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 02:31 PM	I am the DM though. Why is Cardinal VerminTM going to overthrow The Pontiff on the exact day that they are visiting the capital city of Thrane? Well, because the DM said so. Why haven't the loyalists to the Pontiff noticed Cardinal VerminTM has been meeting with radical Monarchists and Peasant Rebels along with a faction of the Emerald Claw? Well, because the DM said so. I could make an elaborate justification exactly why the rebellion went completely under their radar but as a DM, I should at least admit to myself that it's because of dramatic necessity. High Level Npcs are window dressing and you shouldn't get too bogged down by "realism", especially in the context of inhibiting what is a good storyline. Dungeon Master's have a primary duty to the story they are telling above anything else. If that means tweaking things on their own Eberron, which is different from Keiths from the moment the PCs' arrive, then that is pretty much almost a necessity. High Level NPCs are part of the setting and I don't need justifications or prophecy save as an afterthought. Why hasn't the stronger, smarter, and more dominant Illithids eventually bred out and destroyed all other races? It's because it wouldn't make a very good story now wouldn't it. JRR Tolkien said "Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would ... have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth." And the hobbits enslaved etc. Had he been "Realistic" BTW, what do people think of High Level Non-PC classes as another thread has complained about?
nyysjan 08-06-05, 02:55 PM	High Level NPCs are part of the setting and I don't need justifications or prophecy save as an afterthought. Why hasn't the stronger, smarter, and more dominant Illithids eventually bred out and destroyed all other races? It's because it wouldn't make a very good story now wouldn't it. maybe they don't think it worth it, they are after all smarter than us, so maybe they have more sensible things to spen their time with :P JRR Tolkien said "Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would ... have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth." And the hobbits enslaved etc. Had he been "Realistic" BTW, what do people think of High Level Non-PC classes as another thread has complained about? sounds logical, within the setting and rules of Middle-earth, but he found other ways to stop it happening than saying "because i said so", and he was writing a book, not DM'ing a campaign of DnD, especially not in Eberron. and as a DM you can do whatever you like, it still doesn't make it anymore logical or interesting. and all my points, and those that others have brought up, still stand.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 03:13 PM	sounds logical, within the setting and rules of Middle-earth, but he found other ways to stop it happening than saying "because i said so", and he was writing a book, not DM'ing a campaign of DnD, especially not in Eberron. and as a DM you can do whatever you like, it still doesn't make it anymore logical or interesting. and all my points, and those that others have brought up, still stand. My only justification is to my player's fun. As long as they believe and enjoy it, there's no other audience I have to justify it to. Also, I don't see the difference between a book and RPG honestly. Both are storytelling. Also, frankly, I mentioned plenty of good reasons why earlier "in game" but they've been largely ignored. For "story holes", I find high level NPCs also add explanations why a Demon may have existed 3000 years entrapped but still not destroyed the world until the PCs need to lay the final smackdown.
Hellcow 08-06-05, 07:28 PM	High Level NPCs are part of the setting and I don't need justifications or prophecy save as an afterthought. Why hasn't the stronger, smarter, and more dominant Illithids eventually bred out and destroyed all other races? Because the aboleths would stop them. One point about Eberron that people often say is "With the powerful monsters and no high-level good NPCs, why hasn't the world been conquered already?" A few thoughts from my perspective: There's no Grand Alliance of Evil in Eberron. The different powerful forces all have their plans for the world, and the Lords of Dust, Dreaming Dark, Vol, the Chamber, the daelkyr, etc. all want different things. Even the Lords of Dust are often in conflict with one another. However: many of these forces are immortal. They don't need to act swiftly, and they generally don't. They act slowly and subtly, needing to conceal their plans from the other powerful forces of the world or to forge alliances to make the action possible. In the case of creatures like the daelkyr, their motives may seem like madness, and many of the others can be equally baffling. Of course, when Powerful Force #2 discovers the actions of Powerful Force #1, if he chooses to intervene directly he's tipping his hand. This is one reason for the Chamber OR the Lords of Dust to deal with human agents - set the adventurers on the right path and let them clean up the mess. This is especially relevant if you're spoiling the plans of someone who is technically your ally: if one Lord of Dust is interfering with another, he wants to keep his role hidden. So there's a delicate balance of power in the world. When the PCs become powerful enough, they are in a position to upset it themselves, if they choose - to be players instead of pawns. Or they may be able to do something when the balance finally DOES fall apart - when the Lords of Dust finally come up with a way to act that even the dragons can't counter. Now: all of these arguments could just as easily apply to a 40th-level archmage sitting in Arcanix. Hey, he's got powerful enemies. So why do I personally dislike it? Motivation. The inhuman creatures have inhuman motivations. The Lord of Dust doesn't want to conquer the world. He was born a million years before human civilization came into existence, and the kingdoms of humanity are trivial to him - useful only if they can somehow play a role in his true plans. When the power players are lords of madness, ancient demons, hidden dragons - it's easier to see why they aren't that interested in playing a part in the daily affairs of humanity. With humans... well, where were they born? Didn't the archmage of Thrane give a :censored: when Karrnath destroyed Shadukar? Why has the hero of Aundair allowed Thrane to keep Thaliost? Wouldn't the epics have fought against the seizure of Darguun or Valenar, or the secession of the Eldeen Reaches? It's easy to see why the Dreaming Dark won't interfere; they may have actually engineered these events. But there is a lot of injustice in the world at the moment - and I would think that powerful humans would do something about it, whether it's the right thing or simply acting on behalf of their own national/personal interests. The Impact of Magic on the World. To me, the use of magic as a weapon in the Last War is one of the more interesting aspects of the war. But there's a big difference between magewrights with eternal wands of fireball and an epic wizard calling down a rain of fire. And while you can say "Well, they could of, but they didn't"... that's just not satisfying to me. If the power is in human hands, I want it to be used. I want to see what that would do to a society. Aside from epic spells, there's also the issues of artifacts and similar high-level magic items. Right now, these need to be recovered from places like Xen'drik or the forgotten ages; if there are living people in society capable of making them, I'd want them to be more prominent in cities and civilization. Since we designed the world with the idea that there aren't epic allies, people like Jaela, Oalian, and Vol are supposed to be significant threats or allies. Jaela is supposed to be the most powerful cleric known. If there's a 40th level wizard hanging around Sharn, you either need to upgrade Jaela (which you can certainly do) or deal with the fact that she's not really that impressive after all. I'm still a big believer in the fact that a mentor doesn't have to be more powerful than the people he is guiding. He can have resources they don't. Connections they don't. Life experience as opposed to experience points - all things that can allow him to do things they can't but that wouldn't let him fight the tarrasque. And, of course, if one DOES want the archmage, I'm all for adding him in... and saying that he's actually one of the Lords of Dust, which explains his strange reluctance to get involved. One of my things on the FR vs Eberron debate is that there is no right or wrong: they're just different. I'm not saying that FR has in any way made a mistake when it chose to have epic heroes. It's Marvel vs DC, or Star Trek vs Star Wars. FR is a world where gods (or avatars, at least) walk the earth. Where there are heroes who can fight a thousand orcs and live to tell the tale, where there are immortal archmages who are the chosen of the gods. Eberron is a world where we don't even know if the gods exist, where the dark forces do overshadow humanity, where people are bitterly divided by war and national rivalry. As someone said earlier, FR is a world where legends walk the earth, while Eberron is a world that needs legends. Neither one is right: but they are different, and that's good. I wouldn't tell an FR player to remove Elminster from his FR campaign - and I won't add him to my Eberron campaign. Because he's part of what defines the setting and makes it unique, and I'd prefer to keep the settings distinct - especially if WotC is going to continue to support both of them. But as I've always said, the key thing IS what makes a fun game and fun story for you. This is why we made the world the way we did - but in your campaign, you should certainly do what you want with it.
polt 08-06-05, 07:35 PM	What Keith said.
PoeticJustice 08-06-05, 07:50 PM	How could not cowtow (pun intended) to an arguement like that? I was about to make the point about apples and oranges, but thanks for saving me the typing time. FR and Eberron are different. Leave 'em both well enough alone, be happy that others share your interest and passion, and leave the rest to their own machinations. Or go bald and impotent with rage because somewhere, someplace, there's the off chance that somebody is having fun and they didn't ask for your advice on how to do it.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 08:30 PM	Hey Keith, thanks for dropping by. I personally respect your viewpoint about there needing to be legends in the worlds of Eberron and not wanting to take up too much space with the idea of there being great heroes before. It's noteworthy, and very realistic I might add, that there's no Huma Dragonbanes or Merlin the Magicians in your campaign setting as near as I can tell but instead there's only equivalents to Julius Caesar and General Patton...individuals famous for war or politics rather than for "adventuring." I certainly believe this is a major part of Eberron and don't believe the PCs should be left out in the cold (I've made my opinion on what makes PC's 'legends' abundantly clear I hope). I also like your analogy about The Lords of Dust and the Chamber. You seem to be reinforcing the idea that high level entities do exist in the world, in the context of the story....they might not be necessarily beneficent even if the Chamber is usually more beneficent than say...the Lords of Dust. My thoughts will always be the simple.... * High levels are the only way to have high skills. These things like administration, tactics, and so on. * High levels earn respect from PCs. * High level NPCs enrich the setting. * High levels can answer questions about things and fill in roles when the PCs don't have them. (ressurection, sending you to another dimension, etc) * High Level Good players mean that there's a good justification and precedent for high level evil characters. * It gives the Pcs peers to interact with. And that's my opinion. Another point from Poetic Justice in regards to the above from another thread though that I think IS very relevant. Why, why, and why, though? I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but I want to know why all that appeals to you. Why is it necessary to have a +21 diplomacy modifier to run a country that already respects your bloodline as the rightful heir to the kingdom? Why do all the vet fighters need to be level 5 or higher. If they're so skilled and so many, then how are there any rookies, which become cannon fodder, left? Why should the Party respect the High level's based on skill alone? Isn't bravery and derring-do, humility, piety, and all that worth respecting? Isn't that independant of level? I can understand that, to a caster, magic=social standing, but aren't magewrights and adepts awed by the versitility of even low-level wizards and clerics? How do High-Levels make the setting more rich? Knowing that Oalian's out there doesn't make the Eldeen Reaches any more interesting. Rather, the fact that he is a tree does wonders... Ultimately, you've ironically answered your own question which I've trying to be reinforcing since the beginning. Levels don't matter compared to derrin do, humility, piety, and most of all HEROISM that are independent of levels. This is why the 1st level PC, while it's UNLIKELY he'll do anything like save the world at that point, is nevertheless better equipped than many higher skilled figures in fighting the forces of evil. The way I play D&D forces some intangibles that I admit are probably leftover from my days of Call of Cthulhu and White Wolf. Skills are only a small part of the character and it's largely how your personality uses them that makes them important. A mayor may have +21 diplomacy but if he feels like being an ass then he's going to make a negative impression no matter how good he COULD be. In truth, the answer basically comes down to the fact that High Levels are unimportant but so are low Levels. They're just game mechanics and thus have no importance or relevance whatsoever save to the aid in storytelling. With being a 20th level Mayor, you are the best damn mayor on the planet. That doesn't change you still don't have a car (with thanks to Ferrus Bueller). Basically, the greatest portion of my story is there's too much damn focus on stats.
PoeticJustice 08-06-05, 10:22 PM	Charles, you've got a rather large non sequitur going on in your last post. You can't argue that levels don't matter at this point without renouncing your former position, which, I'll remind you, was that High-Levels do things like enrich the setting, are able to run cities, and inspire awe from the PCs, and low levels can't. Please make up your mind.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 10:34 PM	Charles, you've got a rather large non sequitur going on in your last post. You can't argue that levels don't matter at this point without renouncing your former position, which, I'll remind you, was that High-Levels do things like enrich the setting, are able to run cities, and inspire awe from the PCs, and low levels can't. Please make up your mind. You're assuming that there's an absolute going here. As I've illustrated, the benefits of High Levels do exist. They're minor compared to RPG benefits though. When there's no downside to High Levels really, the benefit of being able to create a "Gateway" spell to Xori'at is beneficial even if he is roleplayed as the wisest man on Eberron without it. As the Knights of the Dinner Table illustrate. You can put a king as a 5th level warrior and say he won his crown through battle, it's a bit ridiculous though. Itdoesn't HURT also to have him have a +24 diplomacy anyway, even if the PCs will never be affected by a reaction roll.
Hellcow 08-06-05, 11:35 PM	* Basically, the greatest portion of my story is there's too much damn focus on stats. I agree, which does leave me a little confused by your other points, but just to discuss them... And let me preface by saying that I see this only as a discussion, so please don't take my thoughts as criticism of your views. As always, you know what works for your players. * High levels are the only way to have high skills. These things like administration, tactics, and so on. Certainly. But I have two thoughts of my own about this: I've got no problem with high level NPCs using NPC classes. The mayor of Sharn IS a 12th level character. But there's a big difference between a 12th-level aristocrat and a 12th-level bard. Experts, aristocrats, and even commoners give you all the skills you need to perform normal daily operations. Have you taken a look at a 12th level character recently? A 12th-level expert using a 15-point ability buy can get a +29 Diplomacy modifier... +31 if he's a changeling, half-elf, or kalashtar, plus any items that could boost Charisma. You don't NEED to be 20th level to do a job. A normal laborer is expected to have a +4 in Profession to earn a decent wage. By the time you get to +20 - let alone +30 - you're not just good enough to do your job, you're AMAZING at it. Is a +29 modifier a good thing for a diplomat? Absolutely. But do I think that someone HAS to have a +29 modifer to be an effective diplomat? No. That's the key, I think: what you consider to be impressive. I think that a 12th-level character IS someone people should be impressed with. By 20th level, you're amazing. You don't need to be that good to do your job. There's an 18th-level chef in Sharn - but she IS a legend, who brings people in from across Khorvaire. And she's still a pretty good diplomat on top of it (I know, I've statted her out). * High levels earn respect from PCs. How so? Do they have name tags that tell you what level they are? In my experience, what earns respect is their deeds and reputation. If Khandan Dol is known to be one of the heroes of the Last War, in charge of the most elite military unit in Sharn, feared by the local criminals, if you throw in a bard telling a story about how he personally defeated twenty Karrn skeletons... what's going to make them say "Eh, he's got warrior levels. Wuss." * High level NPCs enrich the setting. See above. Colorful and capable characters enrich the setting. But they don't have to be epic to accomplish that. But more on this later. * High levels can answer questions about things and fill in roles when the PCs don't have them. (ressurection, sending you to another dimension, etc) This is a good point. But at the same time, too many of them make it too easy to come by these things. In the famous example, I WANT resurrection to be hard to come by. So you want it? You've got to go to Flamekeep, and you've got to get Jaela to help you. Furthermore, you've always got manifest zones, wondrous locations, and so on. The problem with having a friendly guy who can resurrect you or teleport you today is the issue of why he can't do it tomorrow. If I want to get you to Xoriat, I can have a sage from Korranberg show up having just discovered that there's going to be a conjunction that will cause a particular manifest zone to open a portal to Xoriat. He doesn't even need a +30 Knowledge (the planes); he might have just stumbled onto a forgotten scroll. And tomorrow? The conjunction's over. If the PCs want to go back to Xoriat, they'll have to find another way. As for knowing things, 20 ranks in Knowledge never hurts, but as noted above, they're NPCs - they could simply have stumbled onto info the PCs don't have access to. The sage couldn't just make a skill roll to remember a fact the way a PC can - but he's been working on a project for 6 years, and that's good enough for me to let him have a particular piece of specialized information. NPCs can fill roles PCs can't - but there's lots of ways to let them fill roles without relying on levels. Levels just mean that they are as reliable and repeatable as PCs... some days that's a good thing, some days it's not. * High Level Good players mean that there's a good justification and precedent for high level evil characters. Why? And I mean this seriously. Why do you need high good to get high evil? As I said before, two evils aren't automatically partners - evil can hold itself in check. And you can have Mordain the Fleshweaver without having a good wizard of equal power to counterbalance him - in fact, if you don't, it explains why Mordain is still around. Undoubtedly heroes of the past have tried to vanquish him - he is a legendary source of menace - but no-one has. (This also comes back to the point that Mordain isn't epic, yet is still a legend and a colorful character.) * It gives the Pcs peers to interact with. A valid point, if the two are close enough. It's going to take a PC a while to be a peer of a 40th-level NPC. But this also comes back to types of power. A king has power beyond his class, because he has the loyalty of his people. A 20th-level fighter could kill Boranel with ease - but that doesn't mean he'd suddenly be ruler of Breland. NPCs can have knowledge, connections, and resources that PCs don't. Even if a PC becomes higher level than Oalian, the Great Druid still has the power of all the Eldeen sects behind him, and and the knowledge of thousands of years. Jaela is still going to be the Keeper of the Flame. The fact that you have an addition 6 ranks of Knowledge (religion) on her really won't make a difference unless you're actually sitting around engaged in roll-offs for some reason. So to me it comes back to how you present people. When a PC meets a cardinal of the church, how does he KNOW this person is 8th level? Until magic comes into play, how does he know if he's cleric, adept, or expert? Peers are people with power - but power can mean far more than level. And, of course, I do support the advancement of NPCs with PCs. That's precisely the point of a character like Halas Martain in the ECS, who is supposed to be a recurring rival. He doesn't start out at 20th level - but by the time the PCs get to 20th level, he could be right there with them, only HE'S working with the Order of the Emerald Claw (or whoever their enemies are). Now: going back to FR vs Eberron. In FR high-level characters and gods are part of the landscape. They are present in every city and every town. Which means you NEED to be high-level to be a legend. If you want a story about the character who beat Bane, well, he has to be 40th level. The point in Eberron is that the power level of human civilization has been ratcheted down a notch. In a world where every town has an 18th-level wizard, you need to be 30th to stand out. In a world where a 9th-level wizard is a big deal, the 18th-level wizard is a legend. People may take fireball for granted, but wish? Some people don't even believe such a thing can be done. And that's the point. For all that people say Eberron is a "high magic" setting, it's not - it's a common-magic setting. FR is a more epic, high-fantasy world. Eberron is grimmer and grimier. People are easier to kill - even heroes. Like I said, no right or wrong - but intentionally different in design, and for myself, I'd like to preserve that difference. When I say "Let's play in the Realms tonight" or "Let's start an Eberron campaign", my players know to expect a different feel - and I think that helps both worlds.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 11:47 PM	I was going to explain my position further but Hellcow pretty much explained my valid points and how you can do it without high levels necessarily. I concede that if you want to do a game entirely without high level folks, it's certainly possible. To explain my discrepency on the nature of stats. What I'm against is the overreliance on stats to the point that people automatically dismiss a character when they are too high or too low. Elminster of Shadowdale and Drizzt Do'urden were really the probem that started this storyline. I rather like both characters and the latter especially. It's one thing to criticize Elminster because of something regarding his personality or his role in the setting (and admittedly, many actively did and I tried not to argue with these points in this thread) but it's another to dismiss the character because he's high level and can do things the PCs are supposed to do as the hero. I'm a fan of iconic seeming characters and I admit that it doesn't matter that Aragorn is 13th level or 30th level. What matters is that he's the King of Gondor and that he's one of the greatest heroes of the Age along with the Pcs. They may not necessarily fit into Eberorn as much as they fit into other worlds, this I will confess but part of my favorite aspect of playing in D&D along with Dming is setting up romances and friendships based on mutual respect that while they DO NOT REQUIRE ultra high levels, do not preclude them either. Nick and Nora relationships at ultra high levels with the PCs, Godlike guardians of the Universe whom challenge ancient evils and will destroy the world, etc. You don't need stats to say they are "ungawdly powerful" but ultra powerful characters form some interesting stories. Even as I've also maintained PCs don't need high stats to be legendary. Part of it is sheer stubborness on my part because I've always lived by the rule at my table that "everything can fit." And there's nothing that is automatically a campaign breaker. I especially hate the assumption that high level characetrs automatically make the Pcs less heroic.
Hellcow 08-07-05, 01:25 AM	Part of it is sheer stubborness on my part because I've always lived by the rule at my table that "everything can fit." And there's nothing that is automatically a campaign breaker. I especially hate the assumption that high level characetrs automatically make the Pcs less heroic. That's reasonable. Part of my point is that Jaela is inherently more powerful than a PC of her level BECAUSE she's got the church behind her - her spellcasting power is a secondary aspect of the true power that she wields. Of course, her spellcasting power is limited away from Flamekeep, and the drawback of her power as Keeper of the Flame is that she has duties to attend to. But just because you're two levels higher than King Boranel doesn't make you his equal - stats are secondary. My point on high level characters is simply that Eberron was not designed to be a world of high level humans. FR is DC - It's got Superman. The Flash is the fastest man alive and he can run around the world in the blink of an eye. Eberron is Marvel - the fastest man alive is Quicksilver, and the best he can do is 800 MPH. Insanely fast, to a normal person - but on a different level. Galactus - the rakshasa rajah - is out there, but when he shows up it's going to take a major alliance of folks to deal with him. Superman won't try to do it on his own. I don't think high level characters irrevocably break the game: after all, sooner or later the PCs will BE high level. But the world was built to be a place where the higher levels are remarkable, and adding epic humans certainly requires a few tweaks. As a random point, in The Shattered Land Daine and his companions are around 8th level, and I plan to keep them around this level far longer than would actually happen in a real D&D game in which they accomplished the things they're doing. I like the mid-levels because they are powerful enough to do amazing things, but still weak enough to feel human to me - they can't take on armies (though Daine has learned to keep a better grip on his sword...). I don't want my characters to overshadow yours, and I see Daine as more on the level of Indiana Jones than Aragorn... tough, certainly, but not the greatest warrior in the world.
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 01:49 AM	Noted Hellcow and I appreciate your words. The greatest irony I have to give is the fact that my players have honestly never kept records of their characters very extensively in Forgotten Realms (they are much like you and prefer to stay at 8th level where it's fairly challenging but they're still very talented), in Eberron they come off with some OFF THE WALL requests. This has included having out and out superheroes in Eberron and it's the first time I've used the Epic Level Handbook for starting players, ironically not for levels but often for things like stats which my players think are justifiable. The product of warforged technology gone horribly wrong, the genetically engineered superhero, and the like. I honestly don't know why this is but my players feel like they can throw off the "shackles" of Dungeons and Dragons ascension system somewhat and actually embrace some fairly whacky stuff honestly. I keep my "Superhero Eberron" game seperate from my 'standard' Eberron game and I haven't mentioned it til now but it's interesting how it still fits to have Warforged able to lift 15 tons and more like the Terminators/Boomers from Bubblegum Crisis than Clone Troopers (Super skilled but very much like normal soldiers in damage endurance). Permanent Flight Spell with ungawdly physicals Supercat (Shifter Monk). Hell, the Super Reed Richards Inventor character. I got the final indication that Eberron truly had a different feel than the rest of the Dungeons and Dragons settings when the PCs defeated the Lord of Blades at the end of tonight's game to end our first campaign. What shocked me wasn't the fact he was defeated and the world saved from his NefariousevilschemetodestroyallhumanityT M but what the players did to him. They arrested him. Never in all of my time had the PCs ever not killed an enemy who was prone. Especially not one like the Lord of Blades but somehow comic book rules had infected fantasy combat rules. On thing I do want to ask you Keith is (and I know you can't have it both ways) is what you mean by one of your other statements. Basically, you're pointing out that it's not a matter of personal power but of contacts, heritage, and the like. Does that mean you think its' precluded that PCs might assume command of churches/countries and so in the setting? One of the aspects of many other games is the wild nature of the countryside and personal power of the individuals means they can parley their personal power into social power.
Hellcow 08-07-05, 11:00 AM	They arrested him. I think that's great! On thing I do want to ask you Keith is (and I know you can't have it both ways) is what you mean by one of your other statements. Basically, you're pointing out that it's not a matter of personal power but of contacts, heritage, and the like. Does that mean you think its' precluded that PCs might assume command of churches/countries and so in the setting? Not at all. I think they could become Lhazaar Princes, that they could be granted a title by one of the kings and work their way up from there, etc. But do I think a PC could become King of Breland? Not unless he's part of the Wynarn bloodline, or unless all possible Wynarn heirs are killed (and not by the player) and the people of Breland themselves choose him. We just got out of a century of war fought because people were willing to back their rulers over the tradition of succession. They won't just say "Oh, but now let's forget the whole thing and have some random guy take over." In England, perhaps anyone can become Prime Minister... but can anyone become king? Likewise with the Keeper of the Flame: there's only one way to gain that post, and that's to be chosen by the Flame. If you, the DM, want that to happen, sure, Jaela could be assassinated and the Flame could choose a PC next. But the PC can't just say "I'm going to become Keeper of the Flame." They could become a cardinal, but that's something with its own duties and rigorous traditions; it's unlikely they could meet the conditions while living the life of an adventurer, and equally unlikely that they could meet the duties of the role while adventuring. So if a character WANTS to be Aragorn, give him a tie to the Wynarn line (which can always be discovered later in life, after all). Or, as I said, you've got Lhazaar Princes, Q'barran fiefdoms, or the chance to hold a lower rank in one of the Five Nations. (As a random aside, I had an article about noble characters in a recent issue of Dragon magazine.) (NOTE: For purposes of this answer, I am not considering the possibility of conquest. Epic level characters may very well be able to defeat armies, but as can be seen in the modern world, military power does not buy you the love of the people, and a campaign based around conquest is going to be a difficult challenge. Not necessarily impossible, but it's certainly going to preclude much adventuring, as PSH notes below... and it would be far, far easier in a relatively chaotic nation like Q'barra than a place like Breland, which has centuries of proud tradition. And don't forget that your conquest of a nation may not fit the plans of the Lords of Dust, Chamber, or Dreaming Dark; you may feel the people are helpless before your epic might, but you might galvanize epic forces to actions they normally wouldn't take.)
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-07-05, 11:02 AM	Does that mean you think its' precluded that PCs might assume command of churches/countries and so in the setting? One of the aspects of many other games is the wild nature of the countryside and personal power of the individuals means they can parley their personal power into social power. If your PCs know how to take over a country, a church, or what not, let them. It'll lead to a boring game, however. Sometimes the warlord can't leave decisions to his Minister of Agriculture, etc. Maintaining a base of power means you can't adventure, for fear of losing that base while you're away. The exception is being king, and even kings can lose their place. (What's the point of being a king when 70% of your army isn't loyal to you and some of your servants report your movements to the enemy?)
Just another user 08-07-05, 01:56 PM	Does that mean you think its' precluded that PCs might assume command of churches/countries and so in the setting? One of the aspects of many other games is the wild nature of the countryside and personal power of the individuals means they can parley their personal power into social power. I don't think It is precluded but if it happens it will not only because the PCs reached umpthteen level and have +35 diplomacy. It will be because they have done the right choices, they have persuaded (or tricked) the right parts that one of them would be a better knig than the actual king, that they were able to raise a revolt agains the actual king that they were able to take the throne, to keep it, and to make things working well enough to stop the country from revolting against them in the successive period, etc etc. And not "ok, now I'm of two levels higher than Boranel, Im going to take his place as king of Breland."
a_psh 08-07-05, 04:05 PM	One should note that there's something that every PC class has built-in: combat ability in spades. An 18th-level magewright is a legendary crafter. An 18th-level wizard can also be a legendary crafter, but is also a walking cannon. Both can make you items. Only one, however, can totally eclipse your characters if you suddenly find yourselves in a 13th-level adventure where the town said crafter lives in happens to be under seige. Now, you can make a character that isn't too great at combat, even with PC classes, but there's still power built in. A level 14 rogue and level 14 expert have comparable skills, but only the former can kill most Eberron characters with one hit. Yes, there are people who should be comparable to the PCs in the campaign world. But I think they should be enemies and allies, not set peices and window dressing. Likewise, when you get to the truly high levels (or if you want to support "epic" play in Eberron), those people stop being... well, people. I say this particularly because, at high levels, power isn't nearly as impressive. I think a level 10 character is much more in awe of a level 15 character than a level 20 is of a level 30. Now, in my opinion, what makes a high-level villain scary at that level isn't obscene power. It's a distant, instructible, alien mindset. Which is why I'd much prefer a rakshasa or daelkyr to a high-level human wizard, even a really nutty one, as high-level villains in my game.
Beleriphon 08-07-05, 04:11 PM	I say this particularly because, at high levels, power isn't nearly as impressive. I think a level 10 character is much more in awe of a level 15 character than a level 20 is of a level 30. Now, in my opinion, what makes a high-level villain scary at that level isn't obscene power. It's a distant, instructible, alien mindset. Which is why I'd much prefer a rakshasa or daelkyr to a high-level human wizard, even a really nutty one, as high-level villains in my game. Or 2000 year old half-dragon/elf liches that once wielded a dragonmark? As for nutty wizard villains, Mordain the Fleshweaver is a good choice since I don't think he's really nuts. Just.... misguided.
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 06:12 PM	(NOTE: For purposes of this answer, I am not considering the possibility of conquest. Epic level characters may very well be able to defeat armies, but as can be seen in the modern world, military power does not buy you the love of the people, and a campaign based around conquest is going to be a difficult challenge. Not necessarily impossible, but it's certainly going to preclude much adventuring, as PSH notes below... and it would be far, far easier in a relatively chaotic nation like Q'barra than a place like Breland, which has centuries of proud tradition. And don't forget that your conquest of a nation may not fit the plans of the Lords of Dust, Chamber, or Dreaming Dark; you may feel the people are helpless before your epic might, but you might galvanize epic forces to actions they normally wouldn't take.) It's a relavent question to our current games as one of the players is now interested in parlaying his new leadership role over the former followers of the Lord of Blades into a coming empire for himself. Part of the enjoyment of High level NPCs is they can also be amusing in their "wildcard" nature of things also. In our campaign, Droam has been "given" to Prince Cyre by the King of Breeland thanks to the PC diplomats negotiations and basically it's a chance to stave off civil war. One of the more amusing adventures is the fact that there was a region to start recolonizing that was avoided by the "hostile natives" and no one could figure out why. It turned out it was an obscenely level high ranger whom was fighting the Last War Still. While he mostly fought with traps and so forth, it was the PCs duty to basically talk him down and get him to surrender. Part of the importance of the adventure was the future conquest of Droam would in part depend on a man who knew the land and also was extraordinarily skilled (if REALLLY wild) and the PCs knowing this person was important because of skills was part of the adventure.
a_psh 08-07-05, 06:35 PM	This is all over the place, I apologize... Well, both Vol and Mordain have decidedly different psyches from people. One being an ancient half-dragon lich, the other being a student of the lore of the daelkyr (and it's implied in the article that he's really messed with himself a bunch). Both are about as instructible as a rakshasa or a daelkyr. Very different from, say, Manshoon or a 21st-level king. The role that they play is really more suited to mid-level adventure, which is why an equivalent scheme-y but clearly mortal human wizard would be around level 10 or 12 in Eberron. An aside about why the cap is level 20: It's pretty clear why the setting uses a level 20 cap. It's the default. Likewise, it's much easier to deal with a world where magic is used to flavor food, speed crafting, and blow up people on the battlefield (pervasive low-level magic) than one where your next-door neighbors can shapeshift into dragons or travel through time (pervasive high-level magic). Eberron tries to be a world that's different from our own, but one that we can relate to. Whether we're talking about war, technology, religion, or society, Eberron presents themes and questions similar to those encountered in modern life. An excess of the outrageously fantastic (which is what the Epic Level Handbook represents) breaks that connection to modern life and weakens the impact. This is why the vast majority of NPCs, even important ones, don't go much higher than level 10. I think the issue here is this: wherever you set the power cap, be it level 20 or 100, the big question is "How many people in the world have hit that power cap?" In Eberron, the default answer to this question is "Almost none." The thing is, "epic" levels aside, level 20 represents the default peak of potential. Cast the most powerful magic, be the best swordsman, &c. Oalin represents the peak of a druid's power in Eberron, period. Mordain is a master of his dark and twisted craft. Vol is a very powerful mage, but she's not really about the magic. Jaela is the closest thing to a direct conduit of divine power. "I'm going to have Eberron scale up to level 200 instead of 20!" is just changing that cap. What's more important is the actual distribution of people from level 1 to level N. If Vol is still a level 16 caster, should the mayor be level 16 as well? Should a PC's mentor? If wish is the quintessence of magic, should half of the Arcane Congress be able to cast it? I think that, in order to preserve the potence of characters like Vol and Jaela, one can't really throw in many more people of similar level. Taking level 20 as the maximum of human potential, it says a lot about the setting that practically no one gets even close to reaching it. That's sort of the point, I think... just the fact that your PCs even have the capability of reaching that cap someday sets them apart. Having a level 20 mage casually teaching them spells sort of kills that.
Hellcow 08-07-05, 07:39 PM	In our campaign, Droam has been "given" to Prince Cyre by the King of Breeland... So just out of curiosity... What do the Daughters of Sora Kell think about this declaration?
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 08:16 PM	So just out of curiosity... What do the Daughters of Sora Kell think about this declaration? Quite honestly, the Three Hags were expecting it frankly. They had been expecting later or sooner that Breeland would send a large scale invasion force to "reclaim" Droam in the name of the King but they believed it would be well after the time that the Breelish had given the dust to settle from the Great War (war debts, demobilization issues for a now massively oversized army, and infrastructure concerns are major points in my game) The Three Hags wanted to avoid a war of course. They are interested in being recognized as a nation and having their authority being "legitimate" but even the latest racism aside against 'monsters', there's still the vast opinion they're a bunch of usurpers and land thieves. Attempts to ingratiate their 'people' in other nations by immigration into Sharn and as mercenaries for other nations have only been limited in success. They're more or less resigned to war at this point but are now divided on how exactly it should be conducted. Sora Katra- Believes that this is an opportunity to show Droam's mettle throughout the lands of the Kingdoms by basically attacking the source of the problem in Breeland through terrorism and various actions of destablization. She believes Cyre isn't going to be a problem at all but they can parlay a showing Breeland of its weakness into their recognition of their territory. Her normal inclination is diplomacy though and if she could get the Cyreans to settle in and make alliance with them, she would have done that. That's not going to happen though. Sora Teraza is hotly against Katra's opinion because she believes that she's overthinking the plan and that while they can easily crush Cyre in a military contest, inviting Breeland into a one-on-one war will be disastrous. She's enjoying the possibility though as it means that her forces can finally have some of their warrior culture vented that is largely simmering under the hag's rule. Sora Teraza is partially responsible for egging on her sister's rather disastrous seeming plan to tempt Breeland into a land war in the Swamp (shades of Vietnam perhaps?) while also playing devil's advocate to both side's elsewise. The Prince of Cyre meanwhile is trying to weigh his options. He knew that since Boranal knew that the revolution from him was coming that this was a gesture that allowed Boranal NOT to wipe New Cyre clean off the map but it also means that he's effectively given the most gawdforsaken territory on the planet....it IS arguably more easily takeable than the Mournlands (which he intends to take back anyway) What he really wants right now is a way of getting enough foreign fighters, money, and support to wage the war realistically enough that he can start settlement....or perhaps a powerful enough weapon. It may lead to some unfortunate alliances.
Hellcow 08-08-05, 01:53 AM	Quite honestly, the Three Hags were expecting it frankly. They had been expecting later or sooner that Breeland would send a large scale invasion force to "reclaim" Droam in the name of the King... Just out of curiosity - why would the king be so eager to reclaim the territory? Unlike Darguun or Valenar, Droaam was never occupied by humans and was Brelish territory in name only; it's been home to gnoll and troll since before humanity landed on Khorvaire. And it was never truly conquered. Look at the world today and you can see how difficult it can be for a foreign power to overcome insurgents: now add in the fact that those insurgents are medsuas, trolls, harpies, werewolves, and other creatures with deadly powers and it gets even uglier. And by pressing the attack, Boranel will in all liklihood increase the status of the Daughters among their followers, as it will reinforce the need to band together against the common foe. And aside from byeshk, Droaam doesn't have a heck of a lot to offer. Or is Boranel simply doing this as a way to dispose of the prince? And as you note with Sora Katra, a sudden wave of monstrous action across Breland could cause Boranel to regret his actions. A handful of harpies could cause tremendous chaos in Sharn, causing people to plummet from bridges and windows in pursuit of a harpy's song. This sort of thing would further sour relations between the Brelish and monstrous races - but it would at least make the war an expensive one. And, of course, with the possibility of another war looming on the horizon, if Breland devotes too much of its military power to the western frontier - well, Karrnathi warlords or Queen Aurala might feel that this presents an opportune moment for action. it also means that he's effectively given the most gawdforsaken territory on the planet.... It may lead to some unfortunate alliances. Fair enough - you're right, it's more hospitable than the Mournland. But if I was a Cyran prince and wanted to make my nation a real power in the world, I might consider trying to ally with the hags - legitimizing their government while getting the awesome power of their armies, which, properly organized, could be a fearsome thing. The current census puts the population of Droaam at about a seventh of Breland, but with Droaam, who can say?And besides which, a battalion of medusa sorcerers and war trolls can account for quite a few 1st-2nd level warriors. It would be interesting to have Cyre Reborn be an alliance with monsters, making a change from the Darguun conflict. But it sounds like that's already been ruled out by other events. Anyhow, I'm curious to hear how it turns out.
Charles Phipps 08-08-05, 03:30 AM	Just out of curiosity - why would the king be so eager to reclaim the territory? Unlike Darguun or Valenar, Droaam was never occupied by humans and was Brelish territory in name only; it's been home to gnoll and troll since before humanity landed on Khorvaire. And it was never truly conquered. Look at the world today and you can see how difficult it can be for a foreign power to overcome insurgents: now add in the fact that those insurgents are medsuas, trolls, harpies, werewolves, and other creatures with deadly powers and it gets even uglier. And by pressing the attack, Boranel will in all liklihood increase the status of the Daughters among their followers, as it will reinforce the need to band together against the common foe. And aside from byeshk, Droaam doesn't have a heck of a lot to offer. Or is Boranel simply doing this as a way to dispose of the prince? To answer your questions friend Hellcow. King Boranal honestly isn't that interested in 'reclaiming' Droam. He's personally not the least bit happy about it's presence, this is true. He's more afraid that it might someday pour into Breeland states and massacre everything it can get it's hands on before it's finally repulsed. He's got his share of warhawks of course in the court who press for a "solution" to every problem is a war. The fact that a lot of suddenly out of work soldiers and war time economy no more problems could be resolved by....Yes another war (this is of course ridiculous but it delays the problem certainly from coming to a head). There's also the liberals equivalents who say that the Hags are finally taking the first steps to 'liberalizing' the land so they may become civilized nations (the same who point to the more like Dargunn to join the nations) but they're far outnumbered. Largely, the hags are acting from the perspective that is born from their environment and also previous actions. They (the monarchs of the land) fought over 100 years for Galifar and giving up territory that they have an option on more that they have no allies to back up means that taking Droam...even if it's over a period of a century...is a far better prospect and it's 'common sense' not to leave a viper waiting behind. Giving it to the prince is a "quick fix" solution to Cyre but it's also more or less acknowledging that it may do some modern day foreign politics. By having Prince Cyre become Breeland's shill, it's entirely possible that he'll head off a revolution in breeland to form a new nation and also potentially weaken the Droam situation. Yes, it might strengthen the Hag's cause but it also might break them and it's more likely a long standing war there will allow Breeland to restrengthen itself without Cyre difficulties OR Droam difficulties (Boranal is not sure the hags wouldn't do something so stupid as attempt to attack Breeland while it's vulnerable...for plunder or conquest's sake). At worst, Cyre and his people are totally massacred and while that's a great tragedy...it also keeps Breeland stable. So no, Boranal is not expecting genocide by the Cyreans that cleanses the land and makes a valuable trading partner eternally grateful for their gift of land. And as you note with Sora Katra, a sudden wave of monstrous action across Breland could cause Boranel to regret his actions. A handful of harpies could cause tremendous chaos in Sharn, causing people to plummet from bridges and windows in pursuit of a harpy's song. This sort of thing would further sour relations between the Brelish and monstrous races - but it would at least make the war an expensive one. Ironically, part of the reason. Boranal believes that Breeland is vulnerable to a united monstrous nation and some form of military action is needed to see that such a thing doesn't happen. My whole idea was essentially to largely base the setup on Vietnam honestly and the worst case scenario that the PCs will have the chance to effect for good or ill is ironically Prince Cyre turning to warhawks in Breeland to basically get Boranal's gaurantee of support for his nation (forcing his hand through the usual skullduggery, plots, and heroism that is the stuff adventures are made of). In which a long standing insurgency (from either side, depending on where you stand) is the likely reuslt with many Breelish dead. And, of course, with the possibility of another war looming on the horizon, if Breland devotes too much of its military power to the western frontier - well, Karrnathi warlords or Queen Aurala might feel that this presents an opportune moment for action. Politics is chess after all, carefully weighed risks and not. Fair enough - you're right, it's more hospitable than the Mournland. But if I was a Cyran prince and wanted to make my nation a real power in the world, I might consider trying to ally with the hags - legitimizing their government while getting the awesome power of their armies, which, properly organized, could be a fearsome thing. The current census puts the population of Droaam at about a seventh of Breland, but with Droaam, who can say?And besides which, a battalion of medusa sorcerers and war trolls can account for quite a few 1st-2nd level warriors. It would be interesting to have Cyre Reborn be an alliance with monsters, making a change from the Darguun conflict. But it sounds like that's already been ruled out by other events. Anyhow, I'm curious to hear how it turns out. Thank you for that suggestion and that would indeed be Breeland's worst nightmare there essentially. I can already see the Hags of Sora Kell using illusions to propose a marital alliance with their "Fairy daughter" (actually one or all of them) to try and use Cyre's pedigree to secure their nation as 'legitimate' as a successor of Galifar. In which the case if the PCs TOTALLY screw up this would probably result in Droam becoming a new Mordor really with monsters and Cyreans gradually becoming more like each other and eyes on the Mournland for expanion and of course Breeland and other realms. Most likely, unless my PCs do anything truly spectacularly daring/stupid (assassinate the Daughters of Sora Kell will pretty much collapse the region completely and while 'terrorism' across the lines of other nations will take a drastic upswing, the "nation" of Droam will cease to exist) most likely Prince Cyre (I know Oargev is his name but I love the sound of calling a man by his country, "Norfolk" in Elizabeth is just so darn powerful) will largely become the Bonnie Prince Charlie of the Five Realms with constant trips amongst other lands to work expeditions to settle new areas/gain troops to oppose this tribe etc. Or, as stated, fail spectacularly by encouraging an alliance with the hags or Breelish direct invasion... (The Pcs have that "wild card" element) The situation turning into more "The Old West" than Vietnam with settlers trying to push back tribes than elsewise is most likely the final outcome. It's only the Old West because I give Oargev a lot of credit for being smart enough to play politics to secure a place of 'peace' with the Hags and limited betrayals on everyone's part as the Hag's "disown" a tribe here and there for their anger over the settler's actions while the Hags reap limited benefits with Oargev and trade including some legitimacy that really isn't worth as much paper as it's printed on. Whether the Cyreans are destroyed or become a fixture or the two merge would no doubt be a effect over a generational conflict. Wow, I totally went into that for some reason... (honestly, Oargev may have just wished he'd stuck with Breelish revolution but without surprise on his side, he knew how that would turn out)
Hellcow 08-08-05, 07:27 PM	Interesting - PM sometime to tell me how it all turns out!
Charles Phipps 08-09-05, 01:44 PM	Interesting - PM sometime to tell me how it all turns out! Well as I PMed Hellcow, my Pcs blindsided me in one adventure by negotiating a peace treaty that Oargev and Cyreans would settle on the Eastern Edges and trade with Breeland for the raw materials harvested by the Droam who have plenty of large scale powerful labor plus a largely unharvested landscape. The monsters get the objects of "civilization." Plus Oargev gets to be "king" of the land while recognizing the hags as Duchesses of Cyre. Extending original topic? Is it just me or is the few confirmed epic level folk in this land also the people that would have the most trouble by Wizard rules in getting to epic levels? Dragons, Daelkyr, and other people who already have obscnely high hit dice. I imagine the giants also had pretty high hit dice.
Hellcow 08-09-05, 03:05 PM	Extending original topic? Is it just me or is the few confirmed epic level folk in this land also the people that would have the most trouble by Wizard rules in getting to epic levels? Dragons, Daelkyr, and other people who already have obscnely high hit dice. I imagine the giants also had pretty high hit dice. One issue is how you handle stacking of natural abilities. Rakshasa in particular stack sorcerer levels with their innate spell-like abilities, giving a raksahsa with 14 sorcerer levels the power of a 21st level caster. Personally, I allow dragon sorcerers to do the same. So an epic dragon cleric is way up there, but an epic dragon sorcerer may require as few as two levels stack onto his HD. Daelkyr? I don't have them use class levels - I just grant them unique abilities as befits their nature. Orlassk can simply use all petrification and stone-related spells as spell-like abilities, along with a few others that don't exist as spells. He has powers rivally an epic wizard, but he can't cast magic missile - it's not in his nature. Giants? Yes, an epic-level storm giant wizard would be a pretty scary thing. Good thing the modern giants don't have that level of sophistication!
Charles Phipps 08-09-05, 05:15 PM	BTW, if people want to know how I run *MY* Eberron, it's like this... A little look at my take on Eberron... "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. I don't know but I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me." -Firefly Airships dueling with biplanes firing magical missles, Cowboys in the Talenta Plains, Detectives in Sharn, Blastswords and djinn powered motorhorses, Mad Scientists building giant disintegrator rays at the capital, Superheroes from their floating fortress over Breeland, Torch lit secret societies of businessmen and nobility. Whip wielding arcaeologists in Xen'drick. Eberron is the campaign world where magical studies have been taken to their natural conclusion over the past couple of hundred years to form a whole new type of society. Instead of Tolkien and Howard, Eberron is a gameworld based around the ideals of modern sensibilities of heroics to a large extent or at least the Medievalism is combined with it. The Orc down the street runs a Bakery rather than existing for rapine and murder, the magicians have used their money to build themselves ruthless corporations that stretch across the nations, and good/evil depends greatly on who stands to benefit. Where you fit in... The Magipunk world of Eberron is currently recovering from a devastating 100 year conflict that makes the Blood War look like a cakewalk. The Politics are neck deep in this world and everyone has an agenda. Unlike normal worlds after a devastating war, the world of Eberron must also cope with the plots of manipulative dragons and demon princes that both have arcane agendas that are incomprehensible to a normal human being. The PCs are wildcards though. Eberron de-emphasizes PC classes and the vast majority of people do not have either their training or potential to skill (level up) to fight against the various forces of darkness. While high level individuals do exist with massive magical and mystical might, the politics and the frightening nature of Eberron's dimensional 'truths'/sorcery have driven the majority either insane or made them so paranoid that they are likely to do more harm than good. This doesn't even count the out and out evil ones. You've got a date with destiny and if you don't stop the Apocolypse Stone or other predicted disaster...no one will. What the Hell is that? Remember in Star Was where Luke Skywalker walked into the Cantina? How he saw all the weird and whacky aliens? This is the nature of Eberron's various races. From the "We don't serve their kind" atmosphere to the warforged/droids to the fact that you're not likely to bat much of an eyelash at the Airship Pilot Half elf having a Troll Bodyguard named Chewy. That doesn't mean there aren't monsters in Eberron though. Unlike in many campaigns, demons and the forces of other dimensional badness are EVIL and not only evil with a capital E but alien and demented. They will twist your flesh and your body and if you're lucky then they'll only leave you completely insane afterwards. The psychosis and evil potential of human beings often trumps anything that a orc could come up with and the elves are hardly the noble race that they were in other settings. Many of them worship the undead and others want to start their own Mongol conquests. The Dwarves are more interested in their money than gold. Halflings, Halflings ride dinosaurs in these games and are likely to skin you as they are to look at you. Abandon all assumptions here. How do we adventure? If you run Keep on the Borderlands, prepare to be hanged for war crimes after you butcher the Goblin cubs. Adventurers aren't the Rat Catchers and mass murderers that they are in other games. Players might be secret agents working for her Majesty the Queen who sip cocktails before bedding the Princess of Breeland or the super assassin from Reidra, they might be the automated knights of the Silver Flame that seek their own humanity through divine transcendence, or they might be nobles who prowl the streets after night as masked vigilantes. They are part of society and rarely just rag tag bands of wandering mercenaries. Even then, they'res powerful guilds and local law enforcement to contend to. In Conclusion Eberron is a whole paradigm for gaming.
makeshiftwings 08-09-05, 05:27 PM	The PCs are wildcards though. Eberron de-emphasizes PC classes and the vast majority of people do not have either their training or potential to skill (level up) to fight against the various forces of darkness. While high level individuals do exist with massive magical and mystical might, the politics and the frightening nature of Eberron's dimensional 'truths'/sorcery have driven the majority either insane or made them so paranoid that they are likely to do more harm than good. This doesn't even count the out and out evil ones. You've got a date with destiny and if you don't stop the Apocolypse Stone or other predicted disaster...no one will. :confused: But this goes against your whole reason for starting the topic; that you thought there should be plenty of sane, good-guy epic NPCs, and that the PCs were heroes not because they had the potential to level up, but because they had Arete and were prophesized to win regardless of the fact that there were a ton of Elminsters out there who could do it in half the time statwise. Eh.. maybe you've just finally come around to the One True Way ;)
Charles Phipps 08-09-05, 05:35 PM	:confused: But this goes against your whole reason for starting the topic; that you thought there should be plenty of sane, good-guy epic NPCs, and that the PCs were heroes not because they had the potential to level up, but because they had Arete and were prophesized to win regardless of the fact that there were a ton of Elminsters out there who could do it in half the time statwise. Eh.. maybe you've just finally come around to the One True Way ;) You know, I feel like Roger Ebert who didn't especially like Lord of the Rings but was appalled when his partner Roeper gave it two thumbs down. Thus, he had to defend it despite not particularly liking Peter Jackson's take on the beloved books. I've tried to make myself clear that the PCs are the only people who can stop the Apocolypse Stone. That if Elminster of Shadowdale or the Symbul tried to stop the Apocolypse Stone that they would die horribly. If you'll go over and read my posts, I also pointed out that my Elminster was a coward and insane. That the Chosen were deeply emeshed in their plots and tied to their territories. Plus, I didn't mention I think that ALL of the Chosen are a few cans short of a six pack. I pointed out that I was a huge fan of the Chamber, the Dragon prophecy, and also that the PCs could be involved with arcane and whacky people of extremely high levels (in Fr, I prefer petulent/vain/stupid/arrogant gods like Discworld who randomly kidnap players and make them do stuff like steal the holy nail polish of Shar for Sune) However, no one remotely stepped up to the bat to defend High Level NPCs period and I've been trying to do my best to defend them from "no, absolutely not, no never" that I've been constantly confronted on. Even Keith seemed a bit confused. Understand now?
nyysjan 08-09-05, 05:49 PM	sure we understand :D you just want to have 50+ level npc in case you need to give the PC's a good kick to speed things up :P
makeshiftwings 08-09-05, 05:51 PM	Understand now? So what you're saying is.... you love Elminster and think everyone in Eberron should be 40th level? ;) No, I see what you're saying, and I think we are all somewhat in agreement on the main idea: that high level characters are fine when used sparingly and not stepping on the PCs toes. I think the part where most of us differ is in our interperetations of FR: you have invented conveient reasons why every last epic good guy out there can't come to the aid of the world, while the rest of us aren't willing to put that much work into the setting to fix it.
Charles Phipps 08-09-05, 05:56 PM	So what you're saying is.... you love Elminster and think everyone in Eberron should be 40th level? ;) No, I see what you're saying, and I think we are all somewhat in agreement on the main idea: that high level characters are fine when used sparingly and not stepping on the PCs toes. I think the part where most of us differ is in our interperetations of FR: you have invented conveient reasons why every last epic good guy out there can't come to the aid of the world, while the rest of us aren't willing to put that much work into the setting to fix it. It really comes down to entertainment value honestly. Elminster is a funny character with bizarre antics, the Seven Sisters are often very good for PC cheezecake, Khelban....I still haven't found any uses for Khelban. Drizzt and company are often good for the "Rival PC" group that basically may almost match the PCs but are serving some entirely different goal than the PCs. When I game FR, part of the reason is the 'celebrities of it' are enjoyable to the party and part of the fun gaming. My players basically run a very nontraditional RPGing game with a lot of interation and less combat than normal along with more focus on "plans" than the actual dice rolling. In Eberron, there's no real signature NPCs save the monarchy, two villains, and King Boranal I just run as this huge ass Viking the PCs treat like their Stephen from braveheart ("We need to guard a king" "A good king or the crazy drunk?" "The crazy drunk"). However, were a Fizban the Fabulous or similiar NPC be introduced by Keith...I wouldn't necessary be against them out of hand. When I run my games, I don't expect my players to make complaints like "Why won't Elminster come with us to fight the Balor" since I pretty much know they know that's unheroic and reflects on them as cowards. However, I'm sure I could come up with a reason or two if necessary. Even the worst reason can be funny "Why can't you help us!?" "because *droaning voice* You must do this....alone." "Why?" "I don't know. It's just in the Prophecy." "What Prophecy? I want to see this Prophecy!" "Look out! Tarrasque!" *PC looks around* "Yoink" "OH YOU DID NOT JUST DO THAT...." (actual scene from game)
Psionycx 08-09-05, 11:19 PM	In cleaning my bookshelves I was just perusing some paperbacks. The handling of NPC's in my opinion is optimally demonstrated in Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series (a great favorite of mine). The relationship of the protagonist Seregil to his wizard mentor/boss Nysander is a great example of a PC at center stage with an NPC supporting. Nysander is a powerful wizard by the standards of Lynn's world. But his power is not absolute or godlike. It is very clear in the stories that he needs the assistance of Seregil despite his magical powers, because Seregil's skills as a fighter/rogue allow him to get things done that Nysander cannot through the use of magic. Nysander is also not so powerful that he could simply blow away any and all opposition at will. Indeed, even mundane opponents can elude his magical detection, thus requiring Seregil's investigative skills. This has long been the problem with super high-level NPC's who are far, far above the PC population in level. Suspension of disbelief becomes much harder. And as noted earlier, really high-level NPC's generally demean the PC's by making it clear to all involved that they are solving problems purely to spare superhero NPC's inconvenience. That is the first problem. The second, as I mentioned earlier, is that it steals some of thrill for PC's advancement. Like why even bother playing a wizard in FR because unless your DM throws you a lot of bones you're never going to even come close to the elite crowd of 20+ (in some cases 30+) level wizards running amok in the setting. In the Nightrunner books there are no invincible PC's or NPC's. Everybody is on the same playing field, and the heroes are challenged by the cunning of their opponents rather than by their simple invincibility. Likewise, the NPC's supporting the heroic side of the equation are not so overwhelming that you're left feeling that they could solve the problems all by themselves if they really wanted to. As it should be.
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 12:15 AM	Clash of the Titans, Time Bandits, and oddly the Last Unicorn remain some of my favorite fantasy. There's also Slayers and Record of Lodoss War but we'll shy away from that for the time being. I won't even touch the Forgotten Realms but I will come back to mention Dark Sun and Planescape oddly enough and weirdly the Greyhawk novels. Clash of the Titans remains probably the single best fantasy film of all time to me. I also have a peculiar fondness for Legend and I won't mention the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars because yes they do blow the others out of the water but they're irrelavnt to my point. What always struck me as interesting about the retelling of the Perseus myth was the chessgame between the gods over mortals. Perseus was literally sent against unlimited and unfathomably powerful beings by a force that was equally as unfathomable and powerful in his lifetime. The God Zeus wasn't completely unanthromorphized like the gods of Eberron but he possessed ultimate power. Yet, watching Clash of the Titans you don't question why Zeus didn't just lightning bolt the Deformed Beast Man whenever he wanted to do so. This is because Zeus's concerns are higher than the mortals. When an NPC reaches a certain plateau of magical or 'enlightenment' based power, his goal is less to directly effect things but facillitate the creation of new heroes and largely that aura of mystery is incomprehensible to 'lesser' beings. Time Bandits as a classic Terry Gilliam work depends largely on a concept that is darkly humorous in its own way. It's the role of an individual whom is caught up in events of extraordinary circumstances that are utterly beyond his ken and the audiences. The irony is that his guides are equally out of their depth. The clashing of God, the Devil, Temporal manipulation, and Giants effectively illustrates that this is a conflict that the human element is completely lost in. It's nevertheless, because of such that it is so much more important to remember and why the ending is especially effective. Men in Black had a similiar understanding of scale. As Keith pointed out, the grand context of things, how important is the Kingdoms of Galifar or Hobbiton to the Universe? Not important at all...which is why it's so tragic. That is, unless the PCs do something about it. The Last Unicorn....err....okay I had a point but I seem to have forgotten it. It probably had to do with the fact the Pcs were oddballs. Slayer's third season dealt extensively with the fact that Lina Inverse and company were essentially oddball players in an ancient conflict with gods and immortals. The goals of the Good Dragons and the Gods from beyond space and time were dealing in the numbers of the universe but rarely had anything to do with the survival of the "little guy." How does this come back to D&D? Good fantasy can be made of "Bad Guy", "Good Guy" "FIGHT" and there's something to be said for Aragorn, Conan, Lancelot, and Superman. It's been made jokes about the story of being "Blue Beattle" or "Hawkman" on the Justice League of America. These jokes have the ring of truth that in the case of the more powerful heroes...why do they need the guy with the big Blue Beetle vehicle? However, good fantasy I've always felt was made of interaction of various elements that were mysterious and awe inspiring in their own right. The Elves Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfidel who fought legions of Balrogs, and Gandalf himself who always was hinted at having awesome power if Saruman was any indication. Last night, the PCs assembled four orbs of ancient Xendrick and their patron raised an underwater city and the sight of the grand sweeping act of magic played across their faces as I managed that special moment of PC awe. In character, Thomas the warforged asked the Wizardess Andrea.... "Would you like Power like the Ancient One?" "No, I would not. The Ability to raise and destroy continents comes with an awesome price by the looks of him. A wife, child, friends, family, these things were what he sacrificed for his magic and millenium of life." Thomas said "Yes....now he is too powerful to act or the world is destroyed." "It is the irony of the ages. The Rajahs and Daelkyr are bound with their release dooming the world yet the Dust Lords and Chamber dare not fight because unlike they...they do not wish to destroy the world to settle their conflict." "And mortals wield the power." The central theme of Tolkien was the fact that Frodo, a unlikely hero, solved the ancient difficulties of all of Middle Earth. The theme of paralyzation of power and lesser beings save the world where gods fail are hardly new themes in the fantasy genre. In Dark Sun, the players are surrounded by "Evil" in the Sorcerer Kings but they are not meant to be overthrown....since the alternative may be much worse. But it's Planescape that influences my conception of high level in Eberron the most. Planescape's theme was that it didn't matter what your level was, you could be a mover and shaker! The leader of one of the factions was 0th level. The Hellbound adventure let PCs take away the teleportation ability of the Tanar'ri and Baatezu forever. Dead God's allowed the PCs to destroy Orcus. It's ironic that in Forgotten Realm's adventure modules; you could kill Orcus, you could rescue Waukeen, you could destroy the Gods in the Time of Troubles Modules so that Cyric/Midnight/Kelemvor were nothing. You as PCs were the movers and shakers of the world by your mere existence no matter what your level was. Nevertheless, you were surrounded by Exemplars and gods at every turn.
Wizardman 08-10-05, 03:58 AM	When the last eagle cries, over the last crumbling mountains, when the last lion roars, on the last dusty fountains, in the shadow of the forest, though she may be old and worn, they will stare unbelieving, at the Last Unicorn... There are three types of people: those that haven't yet seen or read The Last Unicorn, those that love it, and those that are only fit to be mind flayer fodder. :D www.imdb.com says that a new live action movie is being made with Jonathan Rhys-Meyers as Schmendrick, Mia Farrow (the original Unicorn/Lady Amalthea) as Molly Grue, and Christopher Lee, Rene Auberjonois, and Angela Lansbury reprising their roles as King Haggard, the Speaking Skull, and Mommy Fortuna! (Topic, topic, um let's see... got it!) It all depends on your conception of Eberron. Of course Eberron has room for plenty of high and epic level NPC's. They are already there. You just usually can't go to them for help, or else wouldn't want to. Jaela Daran? Even if she rises in level as she ages (which I think is likely, btw), she can only access the bulk of her power while in Flamekeep. Oalian? Unless the daelkyr invade or else something big happens to the Reaches, he's probably not even going to leave his grove. These are the two NPC's with high levels that are most likely to help the party out. Are there others? Logically, yes. There are bound to be a few great wyrms in Argonessen that like mortals. Of course, they probably won't act on their feelings unless the adventurers come to them (a struggle in its own right) or unless those adventurers are fated to play a role in the Prophecy. There are also bound to be some 17-20th (and even higher) level kalashtar in Adar, but unless the Quori invade they're not leaving home. There are the angels of Syrania, the archons of Shavarath, the guardinals of Lamannia and the eladrins of Thelanis, but unless Eberron is threatened by another plane, good luck in getting them to come bail you out. So there you go. All sorts of help is possible, but by the time you can get it you've already had to jump through hoops to ask for it in the first place, and might just have to jump through even more to be deemed worthy. You can put as many powerful characters as you like in, because it's your campaign, but you should have some damned compelling reasons for them to not get involved in any given conflict. They can lend moral support, and even help, but the adventurer should ultimately be for the PC's to endure. Back to The Last Unicorn for a second: I think I know why you thought of it. Schmendrick the Magician (Last of the Red Hot Swamis :D ) is unable to help much in the climax, and is asked why. The exchange goes like this: "What is the use of wizardry if it cannot save a unicorn?" "That is what heroes are for." Replace wizardry with "high level NPC's," and the proper idea is found.
Psionycx 08-10-05, 11:17 AM	But interestingly Charles this makes the point that you are not really interested in who the NPC's are, only in what they are. In other words, their power is the only thing that makes them compelling to you. This has always seemed rather flat and empty to me, and is my big complaint about characters like Elminister. To be honest I greatly preferred him back in the early days before Ed Greenwood really started venting his twink fantasies on him. The same really goes for characters like Storm Silverhand and the others. Elminister was generally better written in my opinion by people like Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb than he was by Ed. Kate & Jeff tended to write him as a powerful wizard, but not as a demigod. The spells and powers he had were the same as anyone else used. And he possessed a fallibility that explained why other heroes would be needed. But Greenwood gradually made him more absurd (gods, that awful Shadows of the Avatars trilogy). And that played into the stats war that brought twinkishness to new levels. But eventually the setting degrades until it becomes all about the NPC's. Indeed, things like the Shades are really brought into the picture mostly to provide a plausible nemesis for the Chosen of Mystra. The PC's role, of course, is as towel boy. So why can't an NPC be compelling and interesting without being a god? Why do NPC's need to be so far above PC's to have relevance? Or is it just that DM's like to play too, and that for some, super-powered NPC's are a lot of fun to play?
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 11:24 AM	But interestingly Charles this makes the point that you are not really interested in who the NPC's are, only in what they are. In other words, their power is the only thing that makes them compelling to you. With all due respect Psionyxc, you're doing it again. In the words of Roger Ebert, I may like a cheeze sandwich but I don't have one every day for every meal. I like other types of NPCs but the power of certain NPCs is as fundamental to them as several other personality quirks. If Yoda isn't powerful, his wisdom is silly. This has always seemed rather flat and empty to me, and is my big complaint about characters like Elminister. To be honest I greatly preferred him back in the early days before Ed Greenwood really started venting his twink fantasies on him. The same really goes for characters like Storm Silverhand and the others. Elminister was generally better written in my opinion by people like Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb than he was by Ed. Kate & Jeff tended to write him as a powerful wizard, but not as a demigod. The spells and powers he had were the same as anyone else used. And he possessed a fallibility that explained why other heroes would be needed. But Greenwood gradually made him more absurd (gods, that awful Shadows of the Avatars trilogy). And that played into the stats war that brought twinkishness to new levels. Ironically, Ed has stated he never wanted Elminster and the Chosen of Mystra stated out but instead to remain vague and mysterious in their abilities for the entirety of the game setting's lifespan. But eventually the setting degrades until it becomes all about the NPC's. Indeed, things like the Shades are really brought into the picture mostly to provide a plausible nemesis for the Chosen of Mystra. The PC's role, of course, is as towel boy. In the Archwizard's trilogy, I found it ridiculous that everything depended on a Sorcerer/Ranger of moderate levels. However, that's what happened and it's oddly been the only occasion where I've asked that question. At heart, Forgotten realms is a game where there's always a "One Ring", "Secret Weakness", or other insane thing lying around that allows the PCs to be the heroes. I've mentioned the modules and I have to honestly ask you whether or not PCs would be allowed to be as big a heroes as they are in Forgotten Realms as they are in Eberron. Weird question but low NPCs also tend to mean low stakes. Will we ever see a equivalent module to Bloodstone Pass where Orcus and his armies are about to kill all life on Faerun unless the PCs take him down? What about rescuing Waukeen from the clutches of a Demon Prince? Permanently crippling two demonic races? So why can't an NPC be compelling and interesting without being a god? Why do NPC's need to be so far above PC's to have relevance? Or is it just that DM's like to play too, and that for some, super-powered NPC's are a lot of fun to play? They don't. Some DO as part of their personality though and throwing them away because of high levels is needless waste.
PoeticJustice 08-10-05, 11:45 AM	At heart, Forgotten realms is a game where there's always a "One Ring", "Secret Weakness", I know I'm tired of that hackneyed plot device. Look, I'm no Realms Historian, but I think you're giving it a little more credit than it deserves. Catching a villain with his pants down and hoping to god its enough to level the playing field isn't nearly as satisfying as getting them in knock-down, all-out fight. It also becomes boring after the umpteenth time of being the fated heroes who, by chance of fate, are in exactly the right place at the right time with the right bullet to kill god himself. It just stops feeling special. By your logic (somewhat convoluted as it is) yes, the FR gives PCs a chance to be bigger heroes by taking down the really big guys. But give me Eberron every time, where I stand an honest shot at doing whatever I want and don't have to ask fate's permission whenever I enact a plan. Give me Eberron, where I don't need to be standing on one leg during a planar convergance while wearing silk socks and farting the Brelish national anthem to be a threat to anybody. EDIT: With regards to Blood stone pass, I feel this is an equivalent (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.blunden/dnd/errand/). You save the world by stopping a plague that would have destroyed the Kundarak bank. And you're only 6th level. Higher numbers for higher stakes only works in Vegas, Charles.
Psionycx 08-10-05, 11:47 AM	But that's not what we're arguing here. The complaint here, essentially, is the absence of Elminster-type NPC's from the Eberron campaign setting. My contention is that they are not needed, so there is no point in having them. As far as I am concerned high levels are not required for an NPC to be interesting. I am not prepared to dismiss the relevance of an NPC simply because they don't have awesome powers. Superman's greatest nemesis is Lex Luthor, an ordinary human that he could kill without even touching him. Luthor's capability as a foe is not defined by his having super powers equal to or greater than Superman's, but by his cunning and planning. Queen Aurala, for example, is a mere Aristocrat 8. How much trouble can she possibly make for PC's of mid or high level? She doesn't even have any spellcasting powers for pity's sake! But that doesn't matter, because she's a Queen. Even with her lowly level and insignificant combat capabilities, she is potentially capable of causing more mayhem than a character 3 times her level. Her power has nothing to do with her class levels. The same goes for a lot of others. In the FR philosophy Merrix d'Cannith should be double the level he actually is, because in the FR paradigm nobody of such an insiginifcant level (not even 20th!) could possibly accomplish much in the magical arena. Yet in the Eberron paradigm Merrix is a great articifer and his abilities are enough for him to do things like create warforged or other fantastic things. He doesn't need to have ridiculous levels to do that. It's only powergamers that think in terms of melee that assume that a foe's capabilities are measured by their stats.
nyysjan 08-10-05, 12:29 PM	exactly Psionycx that's what we are trying to explain to charlie, who, despite his claims to the contrary, is trying to remove that and turn Eberron into Forgotten Realms C'mon Charlie even a 1st level commoner is a threat with right equipment and a good plan
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 12:31 PM	But that's not what we're arguing here. The complaint here, essentially, is the absence of Elminster-type NPC's from the Eberron campaign setting. I don't believe they're lacking actually. I believe the Chamber and probably undescribed groups that will show up in later supplements, will fill the role thereof. My contention is that they are not needed, so there is no point in having them. As far as I am concerned high levels are not required for an NPC to be interesting. I am not prepared to dismiss the relevance of an NPC simply because they don't have awesome powers. The question isn't whether or not a NPC requires high levels to be interesting but whether some types of stories require High Level NPCs and whether they are enriching to the setting as a whole rather than detering. No one is saying that Otik from the Dragonlance campaign setting should be a 20th level warlord that just happens to brew a mean spiced potato. However, making Mordenkain the negotiator of Fiends and the Terror of Oereth into a 2nd level illusionist is ridiculous unless you intend to make him like John Constantine and a huge con man. Superman's greatest nemesis is Lex Luthor, an ordinary human that he could kill without even touching him. Luthor's capability as a foe is not defined by his having super powers equal to or greater than Superman's, but by his cunning and planning. I always preferred Lex Luthor when he was literally the smartest human being on Earth and one of the most highly evolved brains in the galaxy. Superman was the world's strongest man but Lex Luthor could build an energy gun that turned Superman into a insect sized being. It made Superman: Red Son to be that much more enjoyable since you didn't know if Luthor conquering the world was a good thing. Businessman Lex Luthor was always an irritant who took up comic book space. There was no meeting of equals. Queen Aurala, for example, is a mere Aristocrat 8. How much trouble can she possibly make for PC's of mid or high level? She doesn't even have any spellcasting powers for pity's sake! This is where I long for the days of Second Edition. In Second Edition, a 0-level NPC could have dozens of proficiences and be the smartest sage on the planet. Now, skill is directly tied to levels. If you want Lex Luthor then Lex Luthor is going to have to be 14th or more levels so he can have Profession (Business) +14, Diplomacy +12, Bluff+13, Craft (Giant Robots) +12, Speak Kryptonian, and so on. You can leave those off but you're effectively not accurately representing a character whose personal abilities are more important than his societal influence. The point of Lex Luthor is he's a self made man. Queen Aurala inherited her position and she's a scheming ****. However, King Boranal is more impressive than her because he's a self-made King and players will give him more respect for his position. I once had a low level Nobleman's son cause the Pcs no end of trouble and afterwards they asked who was REALLY responsible because largely they knew that low level means less capable. In 2nd edition, you could have that but now we NEED higher levels for capability. But that doesn't matter, because she's a Queen. Even with her lowly level and insignificant combat capabilities, she is potentially capable of causing more mayhem than a character 3 times her level. Her power has nothing to do with her class levels. Let's go along with your point here and remove Erandis Vol, the Lord of Blades, the Rakashasas, and the Rajahs along with the Daelkyrs from Eberron. Also, the Dragons of the Chamber. The setting is now all politicians and scheming people by birthright. Lex Luthor is fine as an 8th level Expert/noble but Superman's confrontations with Darkseid and Zod are what make him just as much. The same goes for a lot of others. In the FR philosophy Merrix d'Cannith should be double the level he actually is, because in the FR paradigm nobody of such an insiginifcant level (not even 20th!) could possibly accomplish much in the magical arena. Yet in the Eberron paradigm Merrix is a great articifer and his abilities are enough for him to do things like create warforged or other fantastic things. He doesn't need to have ridiculous levels to do that. It's only powergamers that think in terms of melee that assume that a foe's capabilities are measured by their stats. No one is saying that certain NPCs have to be higher levels, only that others are ridiculous if they aren't and certain stories NEED higher levels.
nyysjan 08-10-05, 12:34 PM	No one is saying that certain NPCs have to be higher levels, only that others are ridiculous if they aren't and certain stories NEED higher levels. Why
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 12:36 PM	Why Okay, Darkseid is a 1st level commoner. It's stupid.
nyysjan 08-10-05, 12:42 PM	Okay, Darkseid is a 1st level commoner. It's stupid. Who's Darkseid and how does it pertain in your need to have 20+ level NPC's
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 12:47 PM	Who's Darkseid and how does it pertain in your need to have 20+ level NPC's He's DCU's Sauron equivalent. A god that Superman fights. I was pointing out that if Sauron was just a ghost that the story would be less effective. The same if Palpatine was just a corrupt dictator while Vader was a Dark Jedi, ROTJ would have less impact.
makeshiftwings 08-10-05, 01:05 PM	He's DCU's Sauron equivalent. A god that Superman fights. I was pointing out that if Sauron was just a ghost that the story would be less effective. The same if Palpatine was just a corrupt dictator while Vader was a Dark Jedi, ROTJ would have less impact. Palpatine wasn't all that uber in d&d terms. Anakin had to save him the first time he was almost killed, and then at the end of RotJ, he does him in with one grapple check and a bull rush attempt. Palpatine didn't have five Contingencies of Quickened Time Stop, gate in forty balors, drop a few 40d8 hellballs on Vader, cast Heal on himself, and teleport away to be protected by one of the many gods that work for him, all before Vader even blinked, like he could have if he was Elminster. If you're letting your PCs play Superman, then sure, putting gods in there isn't so bad. But if you're expecting your PCs to play through 40 levels of campaigning before they become Superman, then you shouldn't fill the world with hundreds of other Supermen.
nyysjan 08-10-05, 01:07 PM	Nobody has said anything about high level villains, we like villains. :D It's the goody two shoes that have über levels/stats/abilities and do nothing that we can't stand. ;) Besides if Darkseid fights superman it's ok. But if you make him fight a level 1 party and make them dependant of fate/luck/über munchkin NPC to win, then there's a problem. Epic problems for Epic characters There's no reason to send a level 1 commoner armed with a +1 toothpick of Dragons bane to slay the dragon, that job is for dragonslayers. :P
makeshiftwings 08-10-05, 01:08 PM	If you want Lex Luthor then Lex Luthor is going to have to be 14th or more levels so he can have Profession (Business) +14, Diplomacy +12, Bluff+13, Craft (Giant Robots) +12, Speak Kryptonian, and so on. I disagree here too. To get those stats in just pure ranks, you'd only need to be level 11. If you factor in feats, he'd only need to be level 9. If you factor in bonuses from high stats, he'd only need to be level 7. And if you factor in bonuses to mental stats for reaching middle aged and older, he'd only have to be level 6. Plus, he could be a level 6 expert or aristocrat. Not a level 14 bard or rogue.
nyysjan 08-10-05, 01:14 PM	for somebody who says that npc's are more than just their stats, Charlie really argues for the need for stats, and without circumstance bonuses what kind of Intimidation bonus do you get for having an army at your beck and call. or Knowledge for having a huge library (Korranberg) to use or just a heck of a lot of people helping (+2 bonus each, and they stack)
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 01:16 PM	Palpatine wasn't all that uber in d&d terms. Anakin had to save him the first time he was almost killed, and then at the end of RotJ, he does him in with one grapple check and a bull rush attempt. Palpatine didn't have five Contingencies of Quickened Time Stop, gate in forty balors, drop a few 40d8 hellballs on Vader, cast Heal on himself, and teleport away to be protected by one of the many gods that work for him, all before Vader even blinked, like he could have if he was Elminster. If you're letting your PCs play Superman, then sure, putting gods in there isn't so bad. But if you're expecting your PCs to play through 40 levels of campaigning before they become Superman, then you shouldn't fill the world with hundreds of other Supermen. Palpatine beat five Jedi Masters, that's pretty uber. Also, immunity to time stop aside, Elminster doesn't have that many more abilities than a normal wizard of Forgotten Realms at 18th level. Given Epic Magic doesn't exist in Forgotten Realms, Elminster is restricted to 9th level spells like everyone else but the Shades in the setting. That was something I always felt was a tad ridiculous. I disagree here too. To get those stats in just pure ranks, you'd only need to be level 11. If you factor in feats, he'd only need to be level 9. If you factor in bonuses from high stats, he'd only need to be level 7. And if you factor in bonuses to mental stats for reaching middle aged and older, he'd only have to be level 6. Plus, he could be a level 6 expert or aristocrat. Not a level 14 bard or rogue. I imagine his stats would be much higher and he'd have a lot more skills than what I listed above, however that's rather irrelavnt to the matter at hand I think. Largely, my point is that Lex Luthor's skills are what make him an effective villain rather than his nebulous business ties. Largely, I would like people to stop treating me like I'm arguing for everything high level though. I don't believe that any well role-played high level character can be anything but good for a game. I do resent though that this arguement is all over the place. Current arguements seem to include arguements against 1. High levels period amongst villains, PCs, and NPCs 2. High levels amongst NPcs that aren't villains 3. High Levels amongst Good Doers 4. Ultra High Levels instead of High Levels in General 5. Ultra High Levels only regarding good people. 6. Any Heroes but the Pcs. etc. I support Ultra High Level villains and think there's nothing wrong with PCs working to destroy Bane, Vecna, and other godlike entities within the context of a game. I don't mind incorporating Ultra high Level NPCs or Good Ones also for encounters because Ultra High Level NPCs can be Gods and so forth that are story flavor. I don't believe that Ultra High Level Npcs though should "adventure." Ultra High Level NPCs should have different concerns than adventurers. I do support High Level characters (12th through 18th) as heroes as well as NPCs though and think they can still be 'heroes' as well without reducing PC's accomplishments. for somebody who says that npc's are more than just their stats, Charlie really argues for the need for stats, and without circumstance bonuses what kind of Intimidation bonus do you get for having an army at your beck and call. or Knowledge for having a huge library (Korranberg) to use or just a heck of a lot of people helping (+2 bonus each, and they stack) NPCs are more than physical descriptions too but I think that its important for Alustriel to be beautiful and...you know...a woman. Stats are not necessarily the most important part of a PC...far from it. They are a part of the character though
nyysjan 08-10-05, 04:51 PM	nobody needs high levels to be beautifull or to be a woman :D Lex Luthor fights against superman so he would be high level (but not epic) but superman is epic and luthor still gives him a good run around once in a while i know that Batman has beaten superman at least three times ;) batman is not IMO epic, he's just smart and prepares in advance, using the resources at hand :D but you giving NPC's more levels than your characters as a matter of principle only for the reason that they should be looked up to iss just silly and an ally doesn't need to be high level to be usefull Every argument given to you, you have ignored. :weep: Every point shown to you, you have swept aside. :weep: very well i shall leave the field, not because you have won me with arguments but because we are starting to sound like a parrots no amount of skill Diplomacy can help when you'r opponent isn't willing to listen :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 05:20 PM	but you giving NPC's more levels than your characters as a matter of principle only for the reason that they should be looked up to iss just silly I never said that. My PCs are the heroes of their setting. I'm furious right now at your last post but I'm sure it's a genuine misunderstanding of points so I'll only reply when I've calmed down. Edit- What? Seriously. You actually are saying I've ignored arguements? Could you kindly tell me what you think my arguement is? What do you think my players are in their world if you've read my thread? My players are the most celebrated and beloved heroes in the land. By 8th level they'd saved the planet on numerous occasions. Currently, we're setting it up so the players save the Draconic race from destruction and win the coming Second Great War with Reidra. Them and them alone. I guess I have to ask....what DO people think I'm arguing exactly? I'd prefer to not think I've typed dozens of posts to have none of my points sink in. I'M not listening? Seriously. I admit I've had some opinions changed in this thread but I remain adamant in my main one. That High Level good NPCs can still be a part of the campaign setting's fun.
HappyDragon 08-10-05, 06:02 PM	I admit I've had some opinions changed in this thread but I remain adamant in my main one. That High Level good NPCs can still be a part of the campaign setting's fun. I've been following this thread off and on since it started and there have been some solid points and issues brought up by all sides. In the end I would agree that, handled properly, there really aren't any problems with having high level good NPC's in a game. My main reason being that quite frankly, how often will PC's find out the level of an NPC? I would never actually tell PC's what level an NPC is at, there's no reason too. Only in very extreme circumstances would enough proof ever come out what level an NPC is at. Just my two coppers on the issue.
Calibim 08-10-05, 11:13 PM	Ok like some others I have been following this thread a bit and I just want to make an observation Queen Aurala inherited her position and she's a scheming ****. However, King Boranal is more impressive than her because he's a self-made King and players will give him more respect for his position. I once had a low level Nobleman's son cause the Pcs no end of trouble and afterwards they asked who was REALLY responsible because largely they knew that low level means less capable. In 2nd edition, you could have that but now we NEED higher levels for capability. This is simply a case of your players using out of game knowledge in game. Just because a NPC could kick your tuckuss from Fairhaven to Wroat does not really mean squat. Anybody that under estimates Queen Aurala probably won't live to regret it. Let's say Boranal grants you a meeting and you tick him off. He may actual draw his sword and attack you. But Boranal does not command the Dark Laterns, his brother does. Queen Aurala has direct control over Aundairs shadow network. They report Directly to her which means she would not attack you....she would put her finger to her chin...which would be the sign for all hell to break loose, leaving you players a smoldering foot note in Eberron's history. And Queen Aurala was REALLY resposible for that happening. Not a 18th Level Cleric Half-Dragon/Lich....not a Elven Mad Wizard....but a 8th level aristocrate.... You want to cause no end of trouble for the PC? Have a 6th level Changleing Rouge show up in the city/town/village a day before PC do disguised as a random Justicar and state the the PC are fugitives from the law and there is a HUGE bounty on their heads. Or have a low level expert with "Favored in House" feat take a liking to the PC(s) I'm not saying you can't have high level NPC, what I'm saying is if you need to use it as a crutch to get the story going then maybe...remeber this is just a maybe....you need to work on your backgorunds and story telling a little more. That last bit was not meant as an insult. Some one once gave me the same advise.
Charles Phipps 08-10-05, 11:19 PM	That last bit was not meant as an insult. Some one once gave me the same advise. My games have been just the way I wanted them for nearly a decade. I bear no offense, I'm here to defend a point.
PoeticJustice 08-11-05, 12:41 AM	umm, guys, It's kind of obvious this is going nowhere. I know I lost sight of the original discussion at least a page ago. I remain convinced that prevalent high level NPCs such as Elminster, Superman, and what have you detract from Eberron because... 1) My players begin to care about becoming stronger than them rather than simply enjoying their characters. 2) High level good guys don't make a lot of sense in a world with 8 or 9 global organizations dedicated to controling the world. If they were that powerful, they'd not suffer the Lords of Dust to live. 3) High level magic begins to make more regular appearences. I don't want them to have regular access to raise dead, death effects, or high level divinations. I want them to be afraid, I want them to work hard, and I want them to think for themselves and research. There are more, but those are the big ones. Nothing said in this thread has dissuaded any of these, and what's more, Keith's come forward and supported the absence of high level Npc allies. Keith's a smart creative guy, and everything about Eberron has worked so far, so there's no need to alter it. I encourage posters in this thread to stop worrying about comic books, clashes of gods, and focus on whether or not you need high levels in your games.
Charles Phipps 08-11-05, 01:06 AM	I encourage posters in this thread to start worrying about comic books, clashes of gods, and focus on whether or not you need high levels in your games. Threads are best when they wander from their topic and instead go into a variety of related subjects. BTW, I salute you Poetic Justice for your arguing in this thread as well and hope you'll show up in my Reidran one. You're an unusually thorough poster. Ditto to everyone else.
PoeticJustice 08-11-05, 10:29 AM	Thank you, but I'm afraid I can't return the compliment. Charles, you're arguments typically resort to logical fallacy in order to function (You had a non sequitur in post 81, and 118 is a textbook slppery-slope, for example). You've changed positions at least twice since intiating this thread (going back to post 81 here). Despite this change, I've never heard you make a single concession to the other side. On top of all that, how am supposed to take you seriously when you can't even spell Breland? If you want to argue the setting you should at least know how to spell it. If you were from outside the US it would be differant, but your info says you're from Kentucky, so no dice. I daresay you're arguing simply to argue. PJ
Charles Phipps 08-11-05, 10:56 AM	Thank you, but I'm afraid I can't return the compliment. Charles, you're arguments typically resort to logical fallacy in order to function (You had a non sequitur in post 81, and 118 is a textbook slppery-slope, for example). You've changed positions at least twice since intiating this thread (going back to post 81 here). Despite this change, I've never heard you make a single concession to the other side. On top of all that, how am supposed to take you seriously when you can't even spell Breland? If you want to argue the setting you should at least know how to spell it. If you were from outside the US it would be differant, but your info says you're from Kentucky, so no dice. I daresay you're arguing simply to argue. PJ 1. Causal conversation doesn't necessarily fall under the rules of arguing techniques of classic philosophy and debate. 2. I don't think I have. I've explained my position twice and I maintain it. I've had my firmness deeply shaken though by people's own arguements and I've said as much. 3. I've made numerous ones if you'll look over my works actually. Specifically I've conceded definitely many games can be done with low level NPCs (though I always believed that, that may not have been clear) and the fact high levels should be rare (alot rarer than I thought at first) 4. I started playing as a player and the pronunciation was "Breeland" so it's stuck in my head. I only recently registered the change when I was told it here. In any case, you're just wrong about your opinion. I honestly don't consider this an arguement either. On a D&D message board, I consider this more a discussion. I don't believe that winning should be the goal at this point and frankly I'm dissapointed in anyone who ever thought this was a conflict of opinions rather than an attempt to explore the role of NPCs and level in D&D. Given no one remotely understands my position (illustrated in depth in the Ebert post) though or wants to engage in friendly discussion, I guess this is over though. I'm sorry to hear that. This was one of my favorite threads ever on the WOTC boards. I thought it was deeply illuminating on the way many people play their games. In any case, if I've done poorly as a discussion partner I apologize and thank everyone for their participation. It really made me think about my beliefs regarding high level NPCs and ideas for their use.
PoeticJustice 08-11-05, 11:49 AM	It's not possible to discuss the issue when half the contenders don't know what the other side is saying. Also, unless you're arguing with a small child, using logical fallacy is the best way to end a discussion. Nothing derails it faster. First, you started off with a very neutral title, which is misleading given that you've only argued one side the entire time. Titles are important to communicating ideas; don't misrepresent yourself. Second, in post 81 you said that no levels, no matter what, mattered at all. For one, by removing yourself from the realm of the discussion, you've made it impossible to build on the earlier points, which only serves to confuse the reader and potential debaters. This is known as the Non Sequitur logical fallacy. Later, you said that Player's needed high levels in order to have powerful opponents whose defeat confers hero status. This can be inferred from your high-level=high stakes phrase. This is a contradiction. Not so much a logical fallacy as deeply confusing. Finally, when arguing about Elmisnter gets boring, you further confuse this issue by bringing in Jedi, Superman, and all manner of non-D&D heroes. The topic at hand isn't whether or not Superman is high level, or the relative power level of a jedi, it's whether or not you need the level of power they exhibit to be meaningful. Since I brought it up, I may as well answer: you don't need that much power to be interesting. I HATE jedi and Superman. Stupid one-dimensional sanctimonious all-powerful godling characters fighting against opponents who are no better bore me to tears. I had more fun reading The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck, and that's about an impoverished commoner. It can be argued that D&D isn't a novel or play, and I heartily agree, but it also isn't a comic book or melodrama. Even Eberron, with pulp roots, shouldn't shouldn't make its characters god-like.
Charles Phipps 08-11-05, 12:21 PM	It's not possible to discuss the issue when half the contenders don't know what the other side is saying. Also, unless you're arguing with a small child, using logical fallacy is the best way to end a discussion. Nothing derails it faster. In what may surprise you, I agree and apologize. That was very foolish of me and I should have known better as a philosophy major. You are completely correct here. First, you started off with a very neutral title, which is misleading given that you've only argued one side the entire time. Titles are important to communicating ideas; don't misrepresent yourself. Again, you're entirely correct. Ironically, I didn't think that I would take part in this discussion as one sidedly as I did but I was surprised how there wasn't anyone defending high levels. Second, in post 81 you said that no levels, no matter what, mattered at all. For one, by removing yourself from the realm of the discussion, you've made it impossible to build on the earlier points, which only serves to confuse the reader and potential debaters. This is known as the Non Sequitur logical fallacy. Your right, this is both true and misleading again. My actual opinion is more that while you can create villains and characters that are interesting despite their levels, certain archetypes require a certain amount of power level and it's wrong to scrimp on power if a villain's concept warrants it. You shouldn't tone down deliberately but only if the concepts warrant it. Later, you said that Player's needed high levels in order to have powerful opponents whose defeat confers hero status. This can be inferred from your high-level=high stakes phrase. This is a contradiction. Not so much a logical fallacy as deeply confusing. My arguing was very poor, touche. Finally, when arguing about Elmisnter gets boring, you further confuse this issue by bringing in Jedi, Superman, and all manner of non-D&D heroes. The topic at hand isn't whether or not Superman is high level, or the relative power level of a jedi, it's whether or not you need the level of power they exhibit to be meaningful. Actually, I believe the arguement is whether high levels by nature make the PCs seem to be less important in the storyline when there are more high levels or people with higher levels. But, as you illustrated, the topic has expanded. Whether Superman benefits from his high levels or his villains. Since I brought it up, I may as well answer: you don't need that much power to be interesting. I HATE jedi and Superman. Stupid one-dimensional sanctimonious all-powerful godling characters fighting against opponents who are no better bore me to tears. I had more fun reading The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck, and that's about an impoverished commoner. It can be argued that D&D isn't a novel or play, and I heartily agree, but it also isn't a comic book or melodrama. Even Eberron, with pulp roots, shouldn't shouldn't make its characters god-like. I like Superman and Jedi but agree Eberron is lower level, it doesn't HAVE to be without losing its flavor though I think. I hope this clarifies things and my apology is accepted.
PoeticJustice 08-11-05, 12:50 PM	I think I finally get what your talking about. Hey, I've been in your position before so there's no need to aplogize. You've not really done anything wrong, but take it from somebody who figured out the hard way, you have to walk on eggshells when arguing over the 'net, lest the point become lost.
Taylor Haven 08-11-05, 01:22 PM	Oh god this is gonna hurt. I'm also a fan of using higher level good NPC's in Eberron. In my game the party has been involved recently with one Jack Covit, Pirate Captain, renegade prince of the Lahzaar Council, and forgotten heir of the mark of Storms. His legends are numerous, too many to count. He has traveled to Xendrick, sailed around Reidra, sipped tea with Dragons, gone through the acidic sea's of Xoriat, and half of that might even be true. He doesnt serve as a waymarker for the PC's or a goal to reach, but as a friendly face in a world where it really does seem like everyone is out to get you. His ship is one of the few safe places for the hero's because very few active organizations are stupid enough to send their elite minions against him and his strange band. This is a man that very few people know anything about, and what they do know about him is so fantastical that most of it isn't to be believed. Yet do my players know what level he is? No. They can assume from watching him fight a few of the mindless monsters that have attacked them from time to time that he's very powerful, but they have no knowledge of the extent of his powers. If he starts to sing and use his inspirational powers could the more number oriented PC's figure out how many Bard levels he has, how many dread pirate, how many feats? I suppose they could. The problem that so many people have, and have brought up time and again is "Why doesnt he help us out? Whats the point if this character can just solve the problem instead of us?" So i have my return arguments How many times have your 8th level PC's been approached by a 1st level adventuring party and asked to help them solve the problem of Kobolds in the mines. How many times would your PC's drop whatever they were doing to go running off with this group of 1'st level boys and girls to go deal with Kobolds? I know my players give them a look and tell them to do it themselves, perhaps funding them with some minor magics or an old magic item they dont need anymore. Baldurs Gate 2 did this in one scene and it was hilariously funny. But when its time to save the world who wouldnt be altruistic enough to put down what they need and go charging off. Well in this case it would be the person that knows that his getting involved will only make things worse. The Dragon Below is going to release a horrible monster that topple the foundations of Sharn. Only the PC's can stop them, but perhaps their high level mentor would like to step in and help. Except if their high level mentor gets involved so too will his rivals, and the many organizations that want to kill him and have waited for the right time to strike, and the cult learning that he's coming will step up preperations summoning more dangerous beasts or perhaps sending an envoy to a Daelkyre to attempt a temporary assistant. And the high level NPC knows all this. Its happened before. He's learned not to involve himself in the problems of other people knowing that he may well get them killed in a horrible fashion. Its not that he doesnt want to go off to help them save Sharn, but he knows if he gets involved that these up and coming hero's have a good chance of not only dying but dying badly and solving nothing in the process. And more importantly the NPC knows that this group of young men and women are Heroes. He knows it because when you stand before them you can sense this sort of thing. So he helps them with what he can, a safe place, a few minor magics, some assitance in defending them. But he cant really do anything else without causing problems. Kind of like the PC's and the Kobolds. And please dont respond with "But Eleminster can kill all his rivals and *Blah blah blah*" were not talking about Eleminster. Were talking about hero's in Eberron. Hero's in Eberron are complicated, they have sordid pasts, complications. Just because they have the power to take on Karnaths army doesnt mean they will. These NPC's have families, families can be dealt with when your off dealing with an army. These NPC's have homes, homes can be destroyed when your avenging your families death. And if you think you have nothing left to lose now that you've lost your friends and home... well my friends the Blood of Vol can teach you a few new things. Perhaps that Reidran ambassador has a solution for how to deal with you.
Charles Phipps 08-11-05, 01:50 PM	I do love the kobold analogy, though I do think that it warrants the risk of PCs thinking they're being given the brush off. I think I finally get what your talking about. Hey, I've been in your position before so there's no need to aplogize. You've not really done anything wrong, but take it from somebody who figured out the hard way, you have to walk on eggshells when arguing over the 'net, lest the point become lost. Thank you, I admit I've been rather obstinate as well. I may have argued when it wasn't necessary as well. Makeshiftwings, (Psi)severedhead, and Psionyx all make excellent points and really Keith Baker ended all real debate as to my speculations on the nature of the NPCs in Eberron. In what is probably a concession... Erandis D'Vol and the Lord of Blades are effective villains less because of their personal power level than because of the influence they wield. While I personally find it a trifle odd that Erandis is "only" 16th level, it doesn't change she's mostly effective because of her Vecna like cult of believers and minions. The Lord of Blades is a massively important character less because he can kick the PC's ass than because he's got an army behind him. Were I him, I probably would have given the Lord all sorts of levels to give him Doctor doom like cloning and more abilities that WOULD have made less sense than simply relying on trusted minions or artifacts and no PC without the "destiny factor" (in which the PCs show up at the right time with the right information and the right knowledge of his weaknesses) could defeat him. Perhaps I've been molly coddling my PCs by handing them over powerful foes at their time of greatest defeat than letting them be handled in a straight fight. So again thanks for explaining my behavior to me PJ and I do still hope you'll help in my campaign planning thread below involving Riedra.
A Man In Black 08-11-05, 06:52 PM	Oh god this is gonna hurt. I'm also a fan of using higher level good NPC's in Eberron. The problem that so many people have, and have brought up time and again is "Why doesnt he help us out? Whats the point if this character can just solve the problem instead of us?" So i have my return arguments How many times have your 8th level PC's been approached by a 1st level adventuring party and asked to help them solve the problem of Kobolds in the mines. How many times would your PC's drop whatever they were doing to go running off with this group of 1'st level boys and girls to go deal with Kobolds? What people seem to object to is the tendency of high-level NPCs to pidgeonhole PCs into dealing with the "kobalds in the mines" while the big kids deal with the real issues. Sometimes, this manifests in the form of a metaplot. Try adventuring during the War of the Lance in Dragonlance, or in any of the published Deadlands adventures. The PCs sit back and watch the metaplot go by, then deal with the inconsequential kobalds. Sometimes it manifests in the form of a "cap" on what the PCs can reasonably be expected to deal with. Let's say Operation Leviathan is going to be finished, and a terrible city-destroying beast is about to be unleashed. In a game where the PCs are the only heroes, well, it's not like there's anyone else to deal with it. In a game with high-level NPCs, well, why not let Jack Covit and Elminster and their ilk deal with that, and go back to dealing with the kobalds in the mines? But when its time to save the world who wouldnt be altruistic enough to put down what they need and go charging off. Well in this case it would be the person that knows that his getting involved will only make things worse. The Dragon Below is going to release a horrible monster that topple the foundations of Sharn. Only the PC's can stop them, but perhaps their high level mentor would like to step in and help. Except if their high level mentor gets involved so too will his rivals, and the many organizations that want to kill him and have waited for the right time to strike, and the cult learning that he's coming will step up preperations summoning more dangerous beasts or perhaps sending an envoy to a Daelkyre to attempt a temporary assistant. This is a lot of time spent keeping high-level NPCs in check, the argument for allowing relatively lower-level PCs to deal with world-shattering foes in FR. Some people consider this to be a lot of work more easily dealt with by not having Elminsters, and for some people this pierces their suspension of disbelief. ("We've got to deal with another interplanar incursion? Oh, and Elminster has his Ballroom Dancing classes this week, and he's already paid for them. Okay.") And please dont respond with "But Eleminster can kill all his rivals and *Blah blah blah*" were not talking about Eleminster. Were talking about hero's in Eberron. Hero's in Eberron are complicated, We're talking about heroes in Eberron, for what it's worth. There's no reason you can't have a workable world with titans walking the earth. There's Sembian politics to navigate and dungeons to crawl and human/elven/drow tensions to balance and all sorts of things to do in FR. There's a place for smugglers and blockade runners and spies in a galaxy with Jedi. There's a place for the Teen Titans in a world with a Superman. It's just that a lot of people want to play in a world where the PCs are the heroes.
Taylor Haven 08-11-05, 08:40 PM	Thank you for correcting my spelling. I appreciate it :D It seems that your primary argument comes back down to 1) There is no reason for the party to be there since the Uber PC can solve it for them and 2) If the Uber PC isnt there its a contrived device that makes no sense. Personally i thought my argument addressed these rather nicely. The reason the Uber NPC isnt there is because his being there will draw more heat to an allready fragile situation. Now for end of the world plots, like say Project Leviathan theres no reason for them not to be there. But that goes both ways. Why isnt Vol herself at Project Leviathan? When they channel the burst of Negative Energy or activate the Eldritch Machine to awaken the creature, what good pulp villain isnt standing over it all and cackling maniacly? So sure you level 8 group of PC's are there... but so is Vol. What are they going to do against her? Well there gonna die. But do you know why Vol isnt there? Its because the surge of negative energy would alert the elves of Aeranal to her presence. The Dragons would feel it too and probably are aware of it in the prophecy so they've sent there own agents who are powerful enough to deal with the problem. And since Vol doesnt want to be revealed to either of these two groups she wont be there either. Which is what allows the PC's to be there in the first place. This world is bound by rules and aliances thats part of what makes Eberron unique. Good and Evil alike cant get directly involved because there are repercussions from other factions. I guess it just amuses me that nobody has a problem with a nation of Dragons, each incredibly powerful and mysterious but they flip out when a level 16 character is introduced. And then to top that all off nobody has a problem with "The Dragons cant get involved because of the prophecy." But "The level 16 Bard cant get involved because if he does the entire Lahzaar Principalities might get involved because he's a wanted man." To each their own. Im going to use a smattering of high level characters in my game. If you want to avoid any high level characters thats fine, and more power to you.
A Man In Black 08-11-05, 09:22 PM	1) There is no reason for the party to be there since the Uber PC can solve it for them No. There needs to be a reason that the uber NPC isn't doing it for them, if it's sufficiently important to catch the uber NPC's notice. and 2) If the Uber PC isnt there its a contrived device that makes no sense. Not necessarily. People have differing standards for what composes a contrivance. Alternately, some people feel it's better to have solutions that don't involve contrivances. Personally i thought my argument addressed these rather nicely. The reason the Uber NPC isnt there is because his being there will draw more heat to an allready fragile situation. That's a contrivance. Personally, I think it's a pretty good one, one that suits the tone of the setting. I wouldn't call foul on it if I were playing in your game. It's still a contrivance, though. Now for end of the world plots, like say Project Leviathan theres no reason for them not to be there. But that goes both ways. Why isnt Vol herself at Project Leviathan? When they channel the burst of Negative Energy or activate the Eldritch Machine to awaken the creature, what good pulp villain isnt standing over it all and cackling maniacly? So sure you level 8 group of PC's are there... but so is Vol. What are they going to do against her? Well there gonna die. Nonsense. Even a level 16 wizard can't stand against a level 8 party with no protection, especially if the level 8s know that they have to face a high-level wizard and Vol doesn't have a handy escort. Vol is in no danger; the party blitzes her, she cackles that it's already too late, then wisely teleports away. (Likewise, she can't see the heroes' character sheets and they can't see hers, so she's taking a parting shot and beating a hasty retreat, as she can't very well continue the ritual while they're beating on her.) This is all assuming Vol risks her precious self by going there in the first place. She hasn't lived this long by taking risks. You hit on that a little bit... But do you know why Vol isnt there? Its because the surge of negative energy would alert the elves of Aeranal to her presence. The Dragons would feel it too and probably are aware of it in the prophecy so they've sent there own agents who are powerful enough to deal with the problem. And since Vol doesnt want to be revealed to either of these two groups she wont be there either. You like the idea of Vol being scared of hugely powerful forces for good. I like that idea, too, but I like the idea of Vol being scared of the PCs. She uses her minions and circuitous methods because they're safe, not because she can't be bothered. Which is what allows the PC's to be there in the first place. This world is bound by rules and aliances thats part of what makes Eberron unique. Good and Evil alike cant get directly involved because there are repercussions from other factions. PCs. This is a perfectly reasonable FR way of explaining things. Szass Tam offsets, say, Elminster. Superman is off fighting Darkseid, so that's why the Teen Titans have to stop the meteor from destroying the earth. It gives you powerful world-shakers to make things happen in the background. Some people just feels it detracts from the focus on the PCs. I guess it just amuses me that nobody has a problem with a nation of Dragons, each incredibly powerful and mysterious but they flip out when a level 16 character is introduced. And then to top that all off nobody has a problem with "The Dragons cant get involved because of the prophecy." But "The level 16 Bard cant get involved because if he does the entire Lahzaar Principalities might get involved because he's a wanted man." Nobody is pitching a fit about your character. It's simply an illustrative example of how high-level characters require contrivances to keep from drawing the focus away from the players. To each their own. Im going to use a smattering of high level characters in my game. If you want to avoid any high level characters thats fine, and more power to you. Cool. Have fun with it. I hope your players are also enjoying the game, and from the amount of thought you seem to have put into your game, I think they are. This is, hopefully, simply a discussion of the pros and cons of using certain tools in a game. High-level patrons and NPC heroes are a useful tool, but do have a profound effect on the tone of a game.
a_psh 08-11-05, 10:41 PM	I like the Captain guy. I think he's a fairly reasonable example of a living legend that can't fix your problems for you. He's also a good example of someone not really too involved in every large-scale thing that ever happens, however. This is because he has limited resources, can't teleport around willy-nilly, and isn't Chosen by the gods to defend the world. Another problem is that there's a limit to how many Captain Covits the world can support. Just having him as a random set-peice in the campaign is pretty cool. Heck, even having a few people like him is cool. Heck, he doesn't always have to have his hands tied... there are one or two cases when he might, y'know, sail up to fish the PCs out of the Dagger River after they jumped in to avoid the Citadel, and that probably wouldn't suck, either. Now if the PCs sail around with the Captain, then get off his ship and go visit an 18th-level mage acting as a sage in Sharn for some information, stop for a week to train with a 23rd-level kalashtar psion, and then go on a quest to round up cash so that the 17th-level godless Jorasco cleric sitting in a citadel somewhere can cast true ressurection on three of their dead allies, before returning to their level 12 adventure to fight the Lord of Blades because a trio of great gold wyrms showed up and asked them to do it, you've got a problem. In the above scenario, not only do the PCs get upstaged by all of the high-level characters, Captain Covit and the other high-level NPCs all upstage each other, until no one in the world is actually cool anymore. So I think the answer is that there is most definitely a place for high-level characters in Eberron (note Jaela, Oalin, Mordain, Kestia, &c.). But, in order to be awesome, they have to be the exception, not the rule. Now, "epic-level" NPCs, Elminster, Superman, &c.... well, that's an entirely different matter. I think we need to clarify what "high-level" means in this respect, really.
Charles Phipps 08-11-05, 10:51 PM	Heya... In my game table we use this terminology: Low level: 1-6th level. Mid-level: 7th to 12th level High Level: 13th to 18th level Ultra High Level: 19th on up It's a bit different from wizard's depiction I know. Basically though, even in my "normal games" I have 18th level as the 'normal' limit. When I have supergods doing stuff like I've mentioned, that's basically saying that the character is more or less omnipotent on Earth anyway and it doesn't matter if he's 21st level or 200th.
a_psh 08-11-05, 11:16 PM	I think your devisions are reasonable, Charles. With them in mind, I think worthless no-name minions should basically always be in the low-level bracket. I think most important individuals should be in the low- or mid- levels. I personally would place most powerful individuals, including leaders, mentors, and exemplars of their craft, in the be mid-levels (in the 7-12 range), not the high levels. I think a small handful should be high-level. These are the living legends. I think too many spoils it.
Atlictoatl 08-12-05, 12:41 AM	Just to add my thoughts: Eberron is inspired by the pulps. In LotR, it's true, Gandalf and Elrond do stand above everyone. But in Raiders of the Lost Ark? Indy is on his own. There's no Gandalf. In The Mummy, Rick may get help from the Magi, but they're on the same level (at best) - and neither of them are a match one-on-one for Imhotep. It's the fact that they can face such horror and somehow triumph that makes them heroes. Hellcow has said multiple times that his concern from the start was having the PCs be the people who are needed when that world-threatening situation comes along. That if the rajahs are unleashed, there is no 30th-level archmage to handle it. There are powerful allies, but they are limited. Oalian is a tree. Jaela can't leave Flamekeep. But consider other things: The Dragons of Argonnessen are out there, and they are about as powerful as you want them to be. So introduce an archmage - it just turns out that he's part of the Chamber, and he has his own agenda. For that matter, Hellcow has said that there are epic-levels among the Lords of Dust - and they are subtle folks. So, look, it's Elminster. What a helpful bookish guy he is. And, oh, we forgot to mention that he's an al'chazar rakshasa carrying out a scheme he's been working on for 1,000 years - and THAT'S why he doesn't help you, and why he send you on all these weird missions. I think a lot of people undervalue 12th-level characters. When you say "Where are the heroes?", Charles - they're out there. Brightspear the warforged from the recent dragonshard. Sir Banarak Tithon, Knight-Marshal of the Citadel. Khandan the Hammer and Meira the Huntress of the Redcloak Battaleon. They AREN'T epic level. They aren't Gandalfs. But they just might be Boromirs. What Hellcow has said is that 9th-level makes you remarkable, 12th level makes you a hero, and 20th level makes you a legend. There ARE heroes in the world - but it's a world in need of legends. And that's where you come in. Charles, you also said "Where's Indy without Bellaq?" But Eberron specifically addresses that on page 252 of the ECS. It even includes Halas Martain, who is pretty transparently supposed to BE Bellaq. The point there is to have villains that have the same potential as the heroes and advance as they do. If Indy is 5th level, Bellaq shouldn't be 20th - he should be around 5th-6th. By the time Indy is 20th level, Bellaq is 20th level too. This is exactly what the ECS suggests, and what Hellcow has suggested doing with villains like the Lord of Blades - keeping them low enough level to begin with that low level characters can potentially survive them, but advancing them as the PCs grow in power. The thing about looking at all the horror in the world and saying "Where are the heroes?" - they're out there. The Silver Flame. The Gatekeepers. But they aren't strong wnough to solve the problems on their own. Eberron IS a world with problems, and if there were 40th level PC-like characters out there, how would they have let it get so messed up? Why haven't they gotten to the bottom of the Mourning already? Why wouldn't they use their power to stop the horrors of the Last War - or on the other hand, when you consider what a 40th-level character can do, if they'd chosen sides, how much more devastation should a 100-year war have caused? FR is a world that has heroes; Eberron is a world that desperately needs them. In part that's the pulp - the PCs are special, unique, above the average person - but it's also the essence of noir. There is no safety net. There is no one who will fix things if you screw up. And the people who are powerful and seem like heroes? They're probably demons ro dragons with their own agendas. Nothing can be trusted. It's a different tone, and if you don't like it, bring in Elminster and have fun with it. But I can see what they were trying to do when they chose not to have epic allies, and personally, I like the tone it creates. I just read this, Dreaming Duck. Excellent post. It's in my Eberron folder now, along with some choice posts from Keith and a few others on the boards. Thanks!
Charles Phipps 08-12-05, 01:28 AM	Now that I'm sufficiently humbled (and no longer arguing for any specific points) I'll post to this thread again. (Dreaming Duck's points are there as well). I have a few simple rules regarding levels in my campaigns.... (and I point out some of these are modified now thanks to this thread) 1. The Majority of people aren't heroes, Even Skilled People To explain how the world of D&D worked once, I had the players visit the Enlightened Monastary of the Path. The Enlightened Monastary spent all of its time training individuals from birth until death in the ways of combat. Visitors would come to the monastary and share their own fighting techniques with them along with sometimes learn their secrets. One of my player's asked reasonably "What's these guys level anyway?" "The average completed training monk is about 12th level. The Old Man is about 19th level." "Awesome." Other more astute PC asked "If these guys are so badass then why aren't they saving the world?" In the Enlightened Path's case, they didn't bother to help because their way of fighting was solely based on the ways of knowledge for enlightenment, not to put it to use. To new players I often have this sort of thing happen at the towers of High Sorcery and so on. Occasionally, I admit, it backfires but it's supposed to reinforce the PCs are DOING SOMETHING about changing the world. (Also please note the Enlightened Monastary was the greatest fighting school on the planet and also the villain destroyed it solely to destroy their knowledge later in the campaign. In Eberron I'd have the average monk be 4th level and the Grandmaster 12th now thanks to suggestions). But I feel this also reflects NPC classes though more than this case. There's going to be 12th level mayors in D&D and 8th level Aristocrats and so on who've honed their skills 2. Everyone can be a hero I wonder if the players aren't being cheated by this honestly but effectively I recall the campaign adventure "Steelheart" from Dungeon magazine where the PCs were required to escort a Silver Dragon. I modified the adventure so the girl was a hatchling Silver Dragon rather than the useful young adult dragon of the game. Steelheart was literally useless in this respect and more like a portable fireplace/stove than a PC. I also ran the adventure at level 1. Literally, a plot involving the Zheteriam (The Emerald Claw I'd use for them in this game) and the Cult of the Dragon (Dragon Below) and dragons had the PCs at 1st level. The game required them to use their cunning rather than their stats and in the end, they still pulled off turning the two sides against each other and causing the two sids to engage in a war. Another first level adventure had the PCs sneaking into a wizard's tower to steal a major artifact that could summon and control dragons and also had a scroll where the PCs could summon a Balor and they used it (rightly) to defeat the huge villain. The difference really is the fear players should feel with their levels and how crafty they have to be....rather than the goals. 3. Don't ever make the players feel insignificant If you incorporate gods then the gods should be suitably differential and you should spare any "worship me puny mortals." I find this helps boost player confidence honestly but don't break realism either. If the gods come to the players for help or Ultra high level legendary figures there's an important reason for such that may just change the course of fate. 4. Background trumps over power I will apologize for my stat overhype because...as someone has pointed out...it's confusing my point. What's more impressive really as a fighter? A. A 20th level fighter or B. The Warforged who doesn't realize he's containing one of the Five Fragments of the last king of Galifar's soul which was severed into five pieces by the corrupted sword of Galifar (whose severing may have resulted in the splitting of the Five Nations). I don't know what the hell the later plot MEANS really at this point since I'm making it up with the player as it happens but it's his current plot. He's about 8th level.
Charles Phipps 08-14-05, 02:05 AM	:bump: On a related note; how high a level were the Giants of Xen'drick, how high are the dragons, and Tira Mirron?
Manyfist 08-14-05, 03:05 AM	I say let most of the NPCs lvl up with the PCs. It's ok to have several NPCs that your PCs can't kill. I mean what's the point in D&D if you can kill everything? My Homebrewed campaign is high powered, Most the 'Heros' (Good in my world is un heardof, Were Good can be found everywhere in all other settings, the oppsite is true.) are epics guys. I have Two so far that I know the PCs will never ever face, one is a Psycho who created some of my worlds 'Lesser races' (Races I didn't remake). Then theirs the long time friend/enemy of the Psycho, who also created several races. They both are epic, and have through out history killed off many of the other Epic people. I find it no fun when you're in FR where everything is set in stone, and no matter what theirs going to be 1/2 the World is going to be Epic, 3/4 of that going to be non-Combative material, only 1/4 non epic combative material. That's no fun. In eberron were you can decide I want to destory all of khorvine, go ahead, just remember you might be all epic and stuff yet theirs always a bigger and badder guy than you.
camble 08-14-05, 06:40 AM	I have been following the board and am amazed how heated the discussion has become around this topic. I am a firm believer in playing what suits your group and i have seen good ideas on both sides of the argument i would like to point out something that i don't believe that has come up. There has been several times where people have asked where such and such npc is and why isn't he doing the job instead of the hero's and there has been a lot of talk about the power of groups and factions like a church, throne or house and the like in end of the world situations why wouldn't the hero's turn to these groups just as quickly. "well i am just one person what can i do in the grand scheme i mean the citadel has a whole network of spies and specialists they should be able to send in a crack team and take care of the situation." and i know some one will say well they are the crack team. My answer is why if the agency in question doesn't really know them hasn't worked with them are they really going to trust some freelance guy. it would be like thanks for the tip lets let the professionals handle it from here. personally i figure there are always people out there that are in league with and sometimes better then the pc's. When i was dming and adventuring in the forgotten realm's me and my friends wheren't like oh my god there is a chalange ahead we need to run and hide behind elminsters robes. Its about suspension of disbelief. why would anyone in there right mind stay a adventurer i mean come on with the gold a group gets even reaching within the 5th 6th levels they could settle down buy a nice inn and be on easy street. but that would be a little boring and why would the characters doubt there abilities at the mention of a chalange. ow no well we can't do this nearly as well as a bunch of other powerful guys i have heard of we should go and find them and let heck break lose in the mean time. I have enjoyed the eberron setting so far and until looking a little closer i didn't relise the drastic change in level caps. it doesn't really change the way i look at the setting that much the npc's in my game are as powerful as they need to be for the use i have for them. keeping in line with there use in the storyline and setting and what interaction they will have with the pc's. It is as simple as that. I try to be consistant with in the contect of my game and not necesarily with the setting are group finds a balance and we go with it. In most cases i look at alot of the posts flaming about how the pc's should be asking why the chosen of mystra and khelbon and the like aren't doing this or that are using metagaming logic. so why aren't these movers and shakers handling a issue the pc's are currently involved with well they are movers and shakers and they are handling other very important business that may also involve saving the world or not but to assume that the npc's are just sitting around waiting for the pc's to interact with them is also metagaming. now having ranted a bit and i apologies if i sounded harsh. Having said all that it is nice to have a campaign setting that is a little more gritty where lower level play is alot more common i personally prefer 3 to about 12th level in play because the chalanges can be exciting and drawn out the pc's need to stay on there toes but there can be room for error. much past this tends to be very quick ending encounters or a kind of chess match where the wrong move means death for one side or the other. now my opinion is some what colored since i play arcane spell casters alot and the day tends to go with those that are quick and prepared. I find this outlook fits well in eberron but i have had no problems in other settings either. well its late and i guess i am rambling just remember its a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be fun right? ;)
a_psh 08-14-05, 10:27 PM	This is a side question for people well-versed in the FR canon... They come up a lot on this thread, and seem to be the core example in a lot of arguments. As the Chosen of Mystra, Elminster and friends, particularly the Sisters, have a particular job, of sorts, a purpose outlined by the goddess. What is it? (Is there something about defending the world and the Weave and some junk, or am I mistaken?)
Charles Phipps 08-14-05, 10:33 PM	This is a side question for people well-versed in the FR canon... They come up a lot on this thread, and seem to be the core example in a lot of arguments. As the Chosen of Mystra, Elminster and friends, particularly the Sisters, have a particular job, of sorts, a purpose outlined by the goddess. What is it? (Is there something about defending the world and the Weave and some junk, or am I mistaken?) Ed Greenwood's explanation (and I admit I was wrong on Elminster being a coward and my interpretation is flat out wrong despite him being very crazy) is that the Chosen of Mystra are created to preserve the world of magic from those who essentially horde it and prevent it from being passed on. The original Mystra created her chosen basically because too many wizards were like the the Zhents who horded magic, killed students, and largely hoped to become gods. The chosen were created to 1. Reduce people's fear of magic 2. Spread it around as much as possible.
a_psh 08-15-05, 12:26 AM	Hmm... so they don't actually have a built-in requirement to save the world from any and all major or minor problems. Good to know.
Charles Phipps 08-15-05, 12:34 AM	Hmm... so they don't actually have a built-in requirement to save the world from any and all major or minor problems. Good to know. In Elminster in Hell, there was a fun flashback scene where Elminster went to assassinate the Simbul (not knowing she was a Chosen), because she killed so many Red Wizards of Thay. Even though it would plunge the entire land almost certainly into the Magocracy's hands.