Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seth of the First Brigade 02-08-06, 11:17 PM	I know that at least in one or more Eberron publications it is stated that Deneith Guards/Heirs serves their charges with undivided devotion,(paraphrased) so in an instance where two oppossing groups had Deneith contigencies with them, and these contingencies were orderd to defend their charges, would they fight and kill each other (The Deneith Guards I mean)
PeterWhalley 02-08-06, 11:25 PM	I figure that they'd most likely use non-lethal force if they were pushed into it, but in most cases the house would be very careful about hiring on with opposed sides in a conflict.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-08-06, 11:42 PM	Ah ha..... :waits: :D Any other ideas... :confused:
Zedium 02-09-06, 12:53 AM	Well I guess it happens, Deneith guards are usually dragonmarked members, and hired for protection though. They would most likely only try to prevent their charge from dying, not helping him attack someone, for the simple reason that they weren't hired for that. Also, Deneith's mercenary branch isn't made up from dragonmarked members for the largest part. Most dragonmarked members part of this branch usually serve in leadership possitions and will probably be left alive when their army is defeated. The mercenaries are just mercenaries though, and will probably kill eachother becuase their contract states them to do so. Still, I guess occasionally two members find themselves fighting against eachother, and I guess the contract is binding and probably forces them to kill eachother if they absolutely have to and there are no non-violent ways to solve the conflict. (I could immagine them organising contests between two different mercenary groups just to see who is the strongest and would have won the battle.)
Charles Phipps 02-09-06, 01:21 AM	I'm a bit more ruthless. Heirs are valuable captives. Everyone else they bring in is cannon fodder.
Splendide 02-09-06, 03:39 AM	I have to say, House Deneith are the one house that the historical power of just doesn't fit. With all the other houses, their marks clearly relate to their fields of economic domination. I just don't see why Deneith would have the same presence in their chosen field as they reportedly do. All nations have independent armies, and Deneith marks in no way enhance their leadership ability or confer benefits to unmarked members of the house, so why would mercenaries flock to them? Why not stay independent or form around any random other centre of power (like the Lhazaar principalities)? Anyway, so I can be vaguely on topic, if the Deneith guards/heirs weren't prepared to kill each other, it would completely undermine any mercenary credibility that the house has in the setting. So I assume they would.
Sieylianna 02-09-06, 07:32 AM	I have to say, House Deneith are the one house that the historical power of just doesn't fit. With all the other houses, their marks clearly relate to their fields of economic domination. I just don't see why Deneith would have the same presence in their chosen field as they reportedly do. Because there are so many examples in Eberron of mercenaries who turn on their employers. Both the Valenar and the humanoids gained lands by taking it from their employers. A dragon mark house can't afford to let that happen. Ed
Splendide 02-09-06, 07:43 AM	Yeah, but didn't the goblinoids do it while under the auspices of House Deneith? That in itself makes me query why Deneith would be strong.
darkthought 02-09-06, 09:09 AM	I'd personally put a clause in the contract stating that Deneith will not kill Deneith. They'll fight to unconciousness (non-lethal damage) but it doesn't make sense to kill fellow employees who work for the same company/house. Now if the Deneith mercs would meet Thrashk mercs, that'll be a brawl worth mentioning.
DarkWarriorKarg 02-09-06, 11:14 AM	Anyway, so I can be vaguely on topic, if the Deneith guards/heirs weren't prepared to kill each other, it would completely undermine any mercenary credibility that the house has in the setting. So I assume they would. Who says Deneith heirs take to the battlefields? Yes, they may form the corps of an elite bodyguard. yes, they may sponsor mercenary units. The merc unit may fly Deneith's colours, but is their leader even a blood relation to the House? Doubtful. There aren't that many to go around. I see it as Deneith trained mercenary units, with Deneith-trained officers and Deneith agents to make the contract. So in essence, the Deneith heirs wouldn't confront each other on the battlefield. They manage the accounts. But I prefer to not delve too deeply in the logic of the gameworld. Otherwise, one would wonder how Houses Thuranni and Phiarlan manage to keep their services secret from the people who hire them. Or why Ghandalla is even respected.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-09-06, 01:23 PM	Heres what Keith had to say. :) Originally Posted by Seth of the First Brigade I know that at least in one or more Eberron publications it is stated that Deneith Guards/Heirs serves their charges with undivided devotion,(paraphrased) so in an instance where two oppossing groups had Deneith contigencies with them, and these contingencies were orderd to defend their charges, would they fight and kill each other (The Deneith Guards I mean) If necessary, yes, that is what it means. They wouldn't get far as guards or soldiers if it was generally believed that they put the interests of the house above the interests of the client. However, there's no reason that combat has to end in death. A foe who has clearly been defeated could choose to yield; if he's outnumbered, disarmed and down to his last hit point, he doesn't have to try to take down the enemy with his teeth. And if guard one incapacitates guard two and does not have immediate duties to attend to, there's no reason that he can't bind the wounds of his fallen foe (again, if he has time to do so without endangering the interests of his client). Also, remember that the Blademark and the Defender's Guild employ many people who are NOT actual Deneith heirs. Valenar and Darguul troops often broker their services through Deneith. And the Deneith heir won't think twice about fighting hobgoblin mercenaries, even if his house helped them find employment. It's one of the risks of the job.
Just another user 02-09-06, 07:11 PM	Search for the write-up of house Deneith in this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=442444) by the very excelent Fireballed Mage. It explain how the house works better than I can do. Actually, read all the houses while you are at it, Their write up are good. Very good. Very, very, very good, almost Keith Baker level good, Heck there are some things in that thread that even if are not canon, they should be for as much they are good. And in the last page of the thread there is even a link to a PDF version for a more easy reading.
Just another user 02-09-06, 07:31 PM	I'll paste the part relative to the question of the OP, but I strongly suggest to read the thread anyway. Because House Deneith offers mercenaries to whoever is willing to pay, more than once during the Last War the situation arose that Blademark faced Blademark. In more than a few of those cases it was actually Deneith against Deneith. What happens in these events depends on many factors, including the situation and the personality of the units’ leaders. In a few cases, commanders of competing Blademark units agreed to cancel each other out. If side A had 100 Blademarks and side B had 140, then both Blademark commanders would withdraw 100 troops, leaving side B with 40 troops. While not exactly frowned upon by others in the Guild, units that do this usually take a whole lot of ribbing from their fellow mercs. If there is enough time to organize it, the two units may compete in some kind of team sports. The larger force gains a numbers advantage based on how many extra troops they have, but a few games of (insert Eberron’s version of soccer) settle the question of who would have won if blades had been crossed. Needing less time to organize than a game of pick-up, a contest of champions can usually be arranged on the spur-of-the-moment. Both sides send out one combatant per fifty soldiers, and the champions fight for supremacy. The winner takes the field while the losing side withdraws. If forced into conflict, the two sides might try non-lethal means of fighting other Blademarks. Trip, disarm, sunder, or non-lethal attacks are all possible if fighting one of your Guild. But, a thing to remember is that when all is said and done, Blademarks and Deneith personnel are warriors and have accepted the life of a soldier. The job may require you to strike down your own father… then so be it. If you are not prepared to kill your own flesh and blood in honourable combat if they stand against you… then you should not be a soldier. Many great and tragic operas have been written about two Deneith heirs, betrothed since childhood, forced by fate to die on each others’ swords.
Splendide 02-09-06, 08:11 PM	Given that, I so wouldn't hire Deneith.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-09-06, 10:39 PM	Given that, I so wouldn't hire Deneith. Why not?
Splendide 02-09-06, 10:44 PM	For a start, if you hire soldiers, you're paying for soldiers, not for people to play wargames. The one thing about mercenaries that gives you some faith in their loyalty is that their lives are on the line, so they won't even consider deliberately losing a fight. Remove the chance of death, and what have you got? You'd never know when the fix is in, particularly when both sides belong to the same guild.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-09-06, 11:18 PM	For a start, if you hire soldiers, you're paying for soldiers, not for people to play wargames. The one thing about mercenaries that gives you some faith in their loyalty is that their lives are on the line, so they won't even consider deliberately losing a fight. Remove the chance of death, and what have you got? You'd never know when the fix is in, particularly when both sides belong to the same guild. So I take it you didnt like the whole idea that they might jsut break out with a game or two, to decide who the victor was....? I really didnt like that part either, the idea of the Champions fighting it out for victory was at least tolerable. But it would all have to be contingent upon whatever the patron/ whoever had hired the Denieth contingency decided to do. If he said "Forget all that game and champion stuff and get down to it". "FIGHT TO THE DEATH EVERYONE OF YOU, THIS LINE MUST BE HELD!"...Well then its settled, they better get to fighting....
Just another user 02-10-06, 03:25 AM	For a start, if you hire soldiers, you're paying for soldiers, not for people to play wargames. The one thing about mercenaries that gives you some faith in their loyalty is that their lives are on the line, so they won't even consider deliberately losing a fight. Remove the chance of death, and what have you got? You'd never know when the fix is in, particularly when both sides belong to the same guild. You are paying for someone that'll win a war for you, why should you care if they kill each other doing it or not? Beside it depends on what they are fightining for, if you send them to conquest a village and the village is defended by Deneith, then what is the difference if they kill the defenders or if they choose to play it on a game of ball? And if they play it out rather than fight you probably will get a discount. :) Also read all the entry because it is apparent from your comment that you didn't very well "But, a thing to remember is that when all is said and done, Blademarks and Deneith personnel are warriors and have accepted the life of a soldier. The job may require you to strike down your own father… then so be it. If you are not prepared to kill your own flesh and blood in honourable combat if they stand against you… then you should not be a soldier. Many great and tragic operas have been written about two Deneith heirs, betrothed since childhood, forced by fate to die on each others’ swords."
Goatdance 02-10-06, 09:22 AM	Given that, I so wouldn't hire Deneith. I would, if I were forced to use mercenaries. If you want to know why Deneith became pre-eminent in providing mercenary services, read The Prince, by Macchiavelli. He has a lot to say about the use of mercenaries, which can be summed up by 'Don't - they'll steal your city'. A long-standing house that has a solid reputation for fairness and reliability is pure gold to a nobleman with military issues and gold to spare. The occasional 'sorry - we had a wrestling match with the Deneith mercs over the way and we lost, so we're off' is a tiny price to pay compared to the serious threat of mercenaries holding on to whatever you paid them to take, if you hire someone less reputable. The Darguun and Valenar debacles must have been a huge blow to Deneith credibility tho - presumably they have very effective controls in place these days to stop that kind of thing, if the house leadership has any brains at all.
Arz 02-10-06, 01:01 PM	I know that at least in one or more Eberron publications it is stated that Deneith Guards/Heirs serves their charges with undivided devotion,(paraphrased) so in an instance where two oppossing groups had Deneith contigencies with them, and these contingencies were orderd to defend their charges, would they fight and kill each other (The Deneith Guards I mean) Absolutely not. They are defenders, not assasins. The Defenders provide a protection service. If you want someone murdered you hire the Shadow Network. The guards in question would look at there employer and ask, "Did you bother to read my contract, m'lord?"
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-10-06, 01:07 PM	Most dragonmarked members part of this branch usually serve in leadership possitions and will probably be left alive when their army is defeated. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Someone with no leadership qualities might still get the dragonmark. Now what?
talion09 02-10-06, 01:08 PM	... The Darguun and Valenar debacles must have been a huge blow to Deneith credibility tho - presumably they have very effective controls in place these days to stop that kind of thing, if the house leadership has any brains at all. First off, a question: Were the Valenar hired by Cyre through House Deneith? I don't have my ECS handy, but didn't the Valenar come back to Khorvaire specifically because Queen Mishan (or whatever the Cyran Queen's name was at the start of the Last War) asked them for aid? Wasn't the oath sworn when they left Khorvaire the first time not to come back unless specifically asked for aid? And on to the main point: I can see Deneith having a guarantee with their mercenary forces now after the Darguun debacle. Something along the lines of "If the mercs we send you are untrustworthy and betray you, House Deneith will hunt them down at no cost to the original employer." Which might be problematic when you are talking about a whole nation of goblinoids with a signifigant portion of their borders secured by the Mournland... but this guarantee should be enough to make Baron Joe feel safe that the company of Blademarks he hired to hunt bandits won't turn on him and steal his land.
The Fireballed Mage 02-10-06, 02:12 PM	I wrote up that description of Deneith, so If I may, I'd like to explain some of my reasoning behind it. Just another user gave quite a good explanation, and I don't have too much to add. For a start, if you hire soldiers, you're paying for soldiers, not for people to play wargames. For most people who hire mercs they don't care how things get done, they just want victory. If you hire a Deneith detachment they will go out and fight who you tell them to (within the limits of House honour). It's only if they're against their own guild is there a chance they might not fight. And even if they don't fight, they can still win the day for you. At the end of the day, which is more important to a person hiring mercs: "I'm annoyed the trustworthy mercs --who I know won't backstab me or switch sides-- didn't kill people I could care less about." or "I achieved my goals." The one thing about mercenaries that gives you some faith in their loyalty is that their lives are on the line, so they won't even consider deliberately losing a fight. Remove the chance of death, and what have you got? Actually, with their lives on the line some mercs (using history as an example) are more than willing to throw a fight, accept bribes, desert, switch sides, pillage the people they were suppose to protect, etc. You'd never know when the fix is in, particularly when both sides belong to the same guild. No you don't. But you do know that this same Guild has a reputation to uphold and centuries of seemingly honest service behind it. This Guild believes in honour above all, and its soldiers have their pride. A scandal of that nature (the Blademarks playing favourites on the battlefield) would jepordize the House's reputation as a neutral power. Once that reputation is gone so too is the House's ability to charge hirer fees for their 'unique' abilities. "Why should I pay so much more for your Deneith soldiers? You play favourites, so you're no better than common mercs!" (On that note I see House Deneith as taking a lot of flack over the Hobgoblin rebellion. Only three things really kept the House from suffering catastrophic damage to their reputation: 1) The House was obviously just as shocked as everyone else. 2) The House gained nothing from the rebellion. 3) The House then had to pay back all the money it took from contracts the hobgoblins broke.) And remember, it's not against everybody that they say, "Let's play a game!" It's only if Deneith forces on both sides agree to it... and have the time. You are hiring professional soldiers, not professional athelets. They know they are being paid to fight and die if necessary... but does a warlord really care if opposing mercs live or die, so long his objective is reached? Sure he might furiously complain if his side loses the non-fight, but he still has that merc unit to order around, or he doesn't have to pay them combat pay. I set it up like that to give players and DMs options. If someone playing a Deneith heir wants to go around killing fellow House members, she can. If she's looking for a way to serve her family without slaying her blood relations, the option is available to her. Like I said in the House write-ups themselves: use what you feel helps your game and ignore the rest. If you want House Deneith mercs to kill whomever they cross swords with, play your game that way. I just presented options for your consideration.
Splendide 02-10-06, 06:03 PM	You are paying for someone that'll win a war for you, why should you care if they kill each other doing it or not?If the conflict was going to be resolved without killing people, then it would have been done that way originally. You hire Deneith to act aggressively when you want people dead, or property taken by force. Beside it depends on what they are fightining for, if you send them to conquest a village and the village is defended by Deneith, then what is the difference if they kill the defenders or if they choose to play it on a game of ball?If your guys win, then the villagers are slain. Believe it or not, but mercenaries are recruited on their fighting abilities, which includes their abiities when their life is on the line. If Baron A is paying for elite armored troops, and Village B is paying for a bunch of quasi-rogues, who do you think will win a game of skill? Who do you think is paying more? Also, I don't know about you, but having my House Deneith bodyguard abandon the castle so I can be killed because the other side won the wargame...yeah, that'd be just about the worst customer service ever. Also read all the entry because it is apparent from your comment that you didn't very wellI read quite fine, and that paragraph completely negates the prior section, which IIRC correctly was more the part it was being quoted for. I clearly agree with that last paragraph as it supports my view - if Deneith are to have any credibility, particularly post-Darguun, they must be willing to beat the crap out of each other without even coming close to asking for `parley'. They have a lot of making up to do.
Splendide 02-10-06, 06:05 PM	I would, if I were forced to use mercenaries. --- The Darguun and Valenar debacles must have been a huge blow to Deneith credibility tho Precisely. As such, any tolerance for silly wargames would be at an all-time low.
Logos7 02-10-06, 07:06 PM	Half+ of an Army is it's logistic's , Which is why i see house deneth being an economic powerhouse, It buys it's supplies at bulk and uses it "expertise" in mercing (which it has from the practice/experiance it has), you don't need staltward leaders to win, you need healthy troops with boots and working swords and armour I like to think of the Houses as the BIG BOX STORE of the medival world, Is it the Best Quality possible all the time, no but is it cheaper than the competition due to economies of scale and the fact that house deneth can suck up a economic loss (and will suck up a economic loss) to drive others out. as for the " I HIRE HOUSE DENETH TO KILL BABIES AND EVERYONE ELSE INCLUDING HOUSE DENETH AND THEY DAMN WELL BETTER DO IT TOO " people, remember your not hiring BARBARIANS your Hiring Soldiers, i don't know about you guys but my Treaty of Thronehold had a "Geneva" and "Hague" sections, but to each their own. That said, I think the guards who are A> Cheaper than the compititon B>Trustworthy ( Which they still are even if they don't kill deneth) C>Well Equiped and Armed D> Disciplined will win out over a bunch of bar bars that said i see them more defensive as well, i think instead of playing a game of pick up, my deneth will have a "Defender's Win when House Deneth vs House Deneth" and would be very up front about it that said I'd pay 2 gp a day to sponsor a House Deneth Guards Men Wont you Logos
The Fireballed Mage 02-10-06, 08:05 PM	Also, I don't know about you, but having my House Deneith bodyguard abandon the castle so I can be killed because the other side won the wargame...yeah, that'd be just about the worst customer service ever. Okay, FULL STOP. You're misunderstanding the point behind what is being talked about: I know because I wrote it. First off: your House Deneith bodyguard would be a member of the Defender's Guild, not the Blademarks. The whole 'they might do a wargame to settle the fight' is only for the Blademarks, professional army personnel, not for Defenders who's job it is to die to defend their clients. I never suggested that a Defender would leave a client simply because someone beat them at soccer. If the conflict was going to be resolved without killing people, then it would have been done that way originally. You hire Deneith to act aggressively when you want people dead, or property taken by force. Second: Merc military forces are hired to win battles. Period. Most clients don't care how that gets done. It's not about killing people, otherwise you'd just hire a legion of leg-breakers. You're partially right about not being 'resolved without killing people'. More accure to state that then you hire mercs, you're acknowledging it can't be solved without a show of force and a willingness to use that force. But if I hire mercs and my opponent sees he is out-classed and surrenders... do my mercs still have to kill people? Third: Give the merc commanders the acknowledgement that they possess a certain amount of pride and intelligence. If they're defending the client's stronghold or in a critical battle, pride comes into play. Many of the military personnel I know take pride in their abilities, and while not eager to die, they are willing to step up to the plate and do what must be done. I honestly can not imagine a professional army unit saying, "My pride will allow this critical battle to be decided by who's better at tug-of-war." If it's a nonsense battle in the middle of nowhere or over a triffle, then why wouldn't members of the same guild, who you trained with, laughed with... who might even be family try to minimize losses? Sure the client may moan and complain, but you can say, "They beat us in a physical contest. They are stronger, smarter, more motivated than us. We would have lost the objective anyway." Now if the client still complains, then yes, the merc commander will swallow his better judgement and go and fight. You're assuming that given the choice, the mercs will automatically say, "Well, I won't fight them." Except that decision is not done by the merc in the field, it's done by the commander of the merc unit. The unit commander may not even see battle, so he might be less interested in reducing casualties. If your commander says fight, you fight. If your commander says, "The leader of that unit we're suppose to fight against is my brother. Rather than killing each other over this nothing piece of real estate, let's settle this with a duel," I think most would feel put out, but agree. And if the client says, "No! You will fight!" then the commander takes a deep breath and salutes, then leads his troops into battle. and that paragraph completely negates the prior section, which IIRC correctly was more the part it was being quoted for. I clearly agree with that last paragraph as it supports my view - if Deneith are to have any credibility, particularly post-Darguun, they must be willing to beat the crap out of each other without even coming close to asking for `parley'. It does not completely negate the previous section. All its trying to say (and I know what it should try to say because I wrote it), is that if they are going to be fighting family, Deneith people will try to minimize losses. If it can't be helped... or it's an important battle... or pride is on the line... or if the fates conspire against you... or you didn't like Cousin Fred anyway... then yes, Deneith will slay Deneith. And I see this whole 'settle it with other means' as only applying to commanders who know the oppossing commander well (because of blood ties or whatever). For the most vast majority of Blademark battles, this doesn't happen. It does however, give players and DMs options.
Splendide 02-10-06, 09:25 PM	You're partially right about not being 'resolved without killing people'. More accure to state that then you hire mercs, you're acknowledging it can't be solved without a show of force and a willingness to use that force. But if I hire mercs and my opponent sees he is out-classed and surrenders... do my mercs still have to kill people?So basically it becomes instantly a matter of who has more money. Which means if both parties were happy for it to come down to that, again, Deneith wouldn't be called in in the first place. From a client-side perspective, can you think of/depict any situation where both sides in a conflict would a) refuse to use other means of negotiation and b) still be happy to pay House Deneith to play wargames instead of fighting? I can't think of a single one. The only way I can see Deneith actually doing something like this is if one group decide they aren't being paid well enough and want to show contempt for their employer.
ChaoticGood 02-10-06, 11:33 PM	There's an easy way to handle this, and it has already been mentioned: play the House as a broker. For the most part, House Deneith connects competent pre-existing mercenary forces with willing clients, and provides them with the logistical support they need to get the job done. If the other side happens to have found their mercs through the House as well, that's not their problem. It's pretty clear that House Deneith (and the Mark of the Sentinel) serves a "guard" purpose, not a "fight" purpose. Don't make mercenary units led by House heirs a common thing; the heirs should stick to bodyguard duty. That way, instances of Deneith vs. Deneith should be rare, because bodyguards don't generally come to blows with other bodyguards. A Deneith guard may occasionally be forced to fight off mercenaries which were brokered through the House, but since those units are not "in-House," that shouldn't be much of a moral quandary for the average House member. Also, one should assume that the House would be intelligent enough to refuse a contract if it already had an opposing one. For example, it's likely that most of the higher level nobles of Khorvaire have standing contracts for a unit of Deneith bodyguards. If Thranish intelligence came to the House looking for a unit trained for high-level assassination, the House would most likely turn the Thranes away. The contract would almost certainly result in House-brokered forces attacking House guards, and would cause more trouble for the House than it could be worth. If, however, Thrane requested a unit of mercenaries trained for general strike team purposes, and later ordered that unit to waylay and kill a Karrnathi diplomatic party (guarded by Deneith guards) as they passed through on the way to diplomatic talks in Breland, that's beyond the House's control. The soldiers on either side would do their jobs, and that would be that. Finally, if House Deneith had brokered a deal for a mercenary unit of halfling fastieth riders to serve as scouts for Droaam during a border conflict with Breland, they would not refuse to provide mercenary Dwarven spearmen to defend the Brelish border. The two forces will most likely end up fighting each other, but neither force is actually a part of the House; they were merely sold through the House's channels. *** *** *** Here's a scenario: Let's say that International Computer Systems and Mega-Network Services are both companies that set up computer networks for banks. Both companies are having trouble hiring qualified computer techs because of financial troubles. They both turn to the Acme Computer School for temporary employees, because Acme is known to provide the best-trained computer techs for the lowest price. The day after the techs arrive at their respective sites, Global Bank announces that it needs an I.T. company to upgrade the network for its hundred thousand offices around the world. It will be the biggest I.T. contract in banking history. Knowing that the futures of their respective businesses rest on winning the contract, both ICS and MNS enter bids for the contract. The techs don't refuse to go to work just because ICS and MNS are competing with each other. Even if they are aware that the loser of the contract will likely go bankrupt and its employees will all be jobless, they do not "go easy" on their competition. They do their job and try to win the contract. If that puts another Acme employee out on the street, so be it. The employees may have a loyalty to Acme, but they work for ICS and MNS, respectively. For its part, Acme could care less who wins the contract, because the winner will give them enough business to make up for the loss of the other company's contract. Conclusion: if you limit Deneith's mercenary services to "non-House" forces, there really shouldn't be much of a problem.
talion09 02-11-06, 03:45 AM	The key thing to consider about Deneith fighting Deneith (at least IMHO, and I know others have said this before) is that in my Eberron, there aren't a lot of Blademark units composed primarily of actual Deneith Heirs. Sure, a large percentage of the officer corps are Deneith Heirs. Maybe even a majority of the officers are Deneith Heirs. But look at the population figures in the ECS. Then consider that House Deneith basically works with everyone. There is no way that they could field even close to the number of soldiers necessary during the Last War solely based on the population of House Deneith. Unless of course House Deneith outnumbers the other 12 Dragonmark Houses altogether, and we have no evidence to support that. So I see most House Deneith Blademark or contracted mercs following into 3 categories: 1. Deneith-brokered mercs. Deneith just acts as a middleman and puts the contract together between the mercs and the employer, possibly holding the balance of money or bonuses in trust until the campaign is done. No actual Deneith Heirs are part of the merc unit in question. This category particularly applies to goblinoid mercs, Droam monsters, etc. 2. Blademark companies. These are companies of "elite" fighters. House Deneith doesn't just invite any old chump who can swing a sword into the Blademarks, they have tests. And even in these units, most of the actual Deneith Heirs are the officers, not the grunts. 3. The Elite Blademark Companies. These are the premier Blademark units, composed primarily of Deneith Heirs who have been blooded serving in other units. And those members that aren't House Deneith heirs have earned their place through distinquished service in the normal blademark companies. Given these three categories, the "Deneith vs Deneith" angle only really comes into play when the Elite Blademark Companies find themselves on opposite sides of the battlefield. And as others have said, it is unlikely that the House Deneith Leaders would intentionally allow their elite units to be contracted against each other. It might happen, but if Breland had hired an Elite Company to defend Vathirond, then I doubt the Deneith Leaders would allow Cyre to hire another Elite Company to attack Vathirond, no matter what the money offered. It just wouldn't be worth the money to lose those elite, 4th level+ soldiers. But if it did happen that Elite companies faced off, then I would expect them to try to win while minimizing casulties on both sides. If there is any other combination of units from the other classifications fighting each other, then I don't see the issue. At best the officers of a particular unit might be primarily Deneith. But how often would those officers die in battle, considering how well equipped and trained they are, as well as having the option of surrendering? --- Note: I was drawing on two Eberron sources for inspiration when I was thinking of this issue, one "canon" and another not so much. 1. Sharn:CoT sourcebook, pg 148. There are 451 Blademark soldiers in Sharn, which doesn't include the assorted Valenar and goblinoid mercs, or other non-Blademark mercs who might use Deneith as a broker to find work. Of those 451, only 49 are actual members of the Deneith household, and they are divided evenly through the White and Gold Blade ranks, the upper two ranks of the 4 rank system that Hellcow provides. So the average Deneith household member of the Blademarks in Sharn is at the minimum a 3rd level warrior or 2nd level fighter. But more importantly, look at the divisions. House Deneith members make up only 10% of the total Blademark members. And they are the elite of the blademarks, b/c their few numbers make up 22% of the White Blades and a full 50% of the Gold Blades. Its only going to be a battle between units composed solely of Gold Blades that the Deneith vs Deneith angle comes into play in any signifigant numbers. 2. The Binding Stone Novel. Looking at how the Denieth Frostblade (FrostBrand?) company was described during the last war, the CO and a few of his officers were actual Deneith heirs, but everyone else was a recruit. Geth was from the Eldeen Reaches, I believe Singe was Aundairian, etc. --- And I have to admit, my non-DND gaming experience is flavoring my views as well. I see House Deneith acting somewhat like Wolf's Dragoons (and the Mercenary Commision on Outreach) in Battletech, circa 3050 or so. They provide the truly elite troops, but they also act as a clearinghouse for mercenary contracts, helping to broker deals between mercs and employers, and holding the money in escrow to make sure that neither side screws the other side. And those mercs that work through the system are being evaluated by House Deneith everytime a contract is brokered, acting as a kind of "farm team" for the actual Blademarks, since they can pick and choose who they want to try and recruit.
Just another user 02-11-06, 04:13 PM	So basically it becomes instantly a matter of who has more money. Which means if both parties were happy for it to come down to that, again, Deneith wouldn't be called in in the first place. with mercs is always a matter of who has more money, if I can afford a battalion of deneith and you can allow three battalions of Deneith who do you think will win at the end, mmhh?
The Fireballed Mage 02-12-06, 12:23 AM	So basically it becomes instantly a matter of who has more money. Which means if both parties were happy for it to come down to that, again, Deneith wouldn't be called in in the first place. I'm confused over this issue you raise. If you're talking about only hiring mercs: then yes, more money = more (or better trained) mercs... but I don't see the connection with this discussion. The larger number of mercs (or the better trained ones) will usually win. More money = more supplies, more troops, more resources... that is something the winning side usually possesses in most wars with professional armies (which what Deneith mercs are). And what do you mean they wouldn't call in Deneith? Why pay your opponent when you can send in troops, thus depriving him of what he has... without giving him any money? Or, you can imagine this: Baron A wants the mining town of Duke B. Baron A attempts to buy the rights to that fiefdom but fails. Seeing no other recourse, Baron A hires mercs to secure town for him. Duke B, seeing the other's intentions, hires mercs to protect his property. From a client-side perspective, can you think of/depict any situation where both sides in a conflict would a) refuse to use other means of negotiation and b) still be happy to pay House Deneith to play wargames instead of fighting? I can't think of a single one. Quite easily. Situation 1: Baron A wants the mining town of Duke B. Baron A attempts to buy the fiefdom but fails. Duke B, worried about Baron A's intentions, hires some mercs to protect the town. Baron A, seeing that negotiation has failed, hires mercs to secure the town for him by force. Mercs meet. See they are both Blademark units. The commanders know each other. If the town gets destroyed in the fight the property is no longer of any use to either client. They mutually agree to fight over the town via some method that will not destroy what it is they are hired to capture/protect. They fight. One side wins and is able to occupy a working town with a strong force. Winning client is happy. Lossing client is angry and much nashing of teeth occurs. Lossers in any fight are angry anyway, so the merc commander accepts this as natural. Sure one side has lost, but the property is still there (possibly able to be acquired at a later date)... and the lossing side still has a near full strength merc unit in their employ to order around. In fact, let's take the 'angry client' approach to an extreme conclusion: Lossing side fires the honourable losing mercs and, deciding that Deneith troops are worthless because they won't fight, hires less reputable, more blood-thirsty mercs. Less reputable mercs attack the town, but because they are not Deneith trained, they are less efficent and heavy damage is enflicted upon them by the well trained, well led Deneith force. Lossing side then returns to the client who hired them, and, angry and looking to recoop losses, sack the client's property. Situation 2: Nation A and Nation B are at war. Both have deployed mercs to hold the border between them. Nation A invades. Merc meets merc. Again: they are both Blademark units and the commanders know each other well. One side has the high ground, the other has a numbers advantage. Commanders realize that if they fight both sides could be crippled. They decide to settle this particular battle with honour. Winning side holds this ground, thus the winning client has a strong military force and has just won a victory. Lossing side withdraws in good order to a fall-back position. Lossing client has lost a battle, but still has reinforced a strongpoint and retains man-power available to plan for future attacks. The only way I can see Deneith actually doing something like this is if one group decide they aren't being paid well enough and want to show contempt for their employer. Some merc units might, but how much of a reputation would you have as a merc if you turned every battle into a game of soccer? Once-and-awhile avoiding a battle to the death with your close relatives is something anyone can understand. Going out of your way to avoid battles... not done if they ever want to get another merc contract. Non-combat fights probably don't happen all that often, only among Blademark units or commanders that know each other well. It's not happening every day, nor is it happening on every battlefield. But if the need should arrise, I've given DMs or players something they can use. It is important to remember that what I'm writing about is just the way I see House Deneith as running. It's not canon, and it's not offical. If you find the idea of siblings trying to find a way not to kill each other on the (possibly stupid) orders of the clients, then you're free to have them kill family without a second thought.
Splendide 02-13-06, 07:04 AM	Situation 1: Baron A wants the mining town of Duke B. Baron A attempts to buy the fiefdom but fails. Duke B, worried about Baron A's intentions, hires some mercs to protect the town. Baron A, seeing that negotiation has failed, hires mercs to secure the town for him by force. Mercs meet. See they are both Blademark units. The commanders know each other. If the town gets destroyed in the fight the property is no longer of any use to either client. They mutually agree to fight over the town via some method that will not destroy what it is they are hired to capture/protect. They fight. One side wins and is able to occupy a working town with a strong force. Winning client is happy. Lossing client is angry and much nashing of teeth occurs. Lossers in any fight are angry anyway, so the merc commander accepts this as natural. But here's the bottom line. Not only has the losing client lost his mine, he's also left it in perfect working order for his opponent AND he's paid House Deneith for the privilege of giving away his mine, while they play soccer. There is no value for money in this scenario for the loser. None. He would've walked away with more money if he'd abandoned the mine instead of paying for mercenaries that didn't even work up a sweat. Can you imagine how damaging that sort of scenario would be to Deneith's reputation? Situation 2: Nation A and Nation B are at war. Both have deployed mercs to hold the border between them. Nation A invades. Merc meets merc. Again: they are both Blademark units and the commanders know each other well. One side has the high ground, the other has a numbers advantage. Commanders realize that if they fight both sides could be crippled. They decide to settle this particular battle with honour. Winning side holds this ground, thus the winning client has a strong military force and has just won a victory. Lossing side withdraws in good order to a fall-back position. Lossing client has lost a battle, but still has reinforced a strongpoint and retains man-power available to plan for future attacks.Man-power that, the next time they are outnumbered, will cough up territory again in another game. Retaining man-power that you hire by the hour is not an asset. Man-power that you don't need to pay as much because a lot of them died in actually depleting the opposition's forces (as opposed to giving them the keys to the castle), thats what is good value. Again there is massive, massive damage to Deneith's rep and perceived value being done here. It is important to remember that what I'm writing about is just the way I see House Deneith as running. It's not canon, and it's not offical.Yep. To be honest, I really don't care what you decide to write up, and I wasn't the one chasing up your description for inclusion in this argument. I'm not trying to give you feedback here, you've been drawn in on another discussion that basically requires me looking at what seem to be big faults in the presented supporting material so that I can respond. If you want to run a Dragonlancey campaign with ideas like this and spread those ideas around, thats cool, go for it. Myself, I'm pretty glad its not canon. Cheers!
The Fireballed Mage 02-13-06, 02:35 PM	Not only has the losing client lost his mine, he's also left it in perfect working order for his opponent AND he's paid House Deneith for the privilege of giving away his mine, while they play soccer. He's paid House Deneith to attempt to defend/capture the mine. And if its in perfect working order, he has a chance to capture it at a later date. Besides, everyone who sends troops in expects to win. Now assume his opponent hired a unit not well known to the other unit, and they fight over the mine. Now the mine is destroyed in the fighting and the winner gets what? A depleted force that is defending a piece of nothing that is going to take more money invested to get it back into shape. Pyrrhic victory indeed. To paraphrase someone far wiser than me, "Nothing in war is as costly as victory, except defeat." There is no value for money in this scenario for the loser. None. He would've walked away with more money if he'd abandoned the mine instead of paying for mercenaries that didn't even work up a sweat. Really? He paid for the chance to hold/capture the mine. You hire troops because you expect them to win, but there are no garanettes (sp) in life. Yes he lost. He's unhappy. He's out money. He complains the troops weren't worth it. I'm not denying this. Guess what? Had they fought a pitched battle and his side still lost, he would be in exactly the same situation. He lost. He's unhappy. He's out money. He complains the troops weren't worth it. On top of that he no longer has the merc unit to use. Can you imagine how damaging that sort of scenario would be to Deneith's reputation? On a very rare occasion two commanders choose to combat an honourable foe in a different fashion? Shocking! Man-power that, the next time they are outnumbered, will cough up territory again in another game. And what happens if the winning side was the one that was outnumbered? Better skills, better training, and motivation can overcome numerical advantages. You're making the claim that the unit will fold the first chance it gets. I'm not implying that. First of all, it has to be a unit, of the same Guild, they know well. Otherwise they'll fight. Second, there has to be a reason why both sides would want to settle it without too much bloodshed. If either side has a clear advantage, they'll fight. Third, the pride of the unit has to maintained. If not crossing swords would damage the pride of their fighting men, they'll fight. Fourth, any unit that was to do this too often would see its fighting skills and reputation decline. occasionally saving your unit from an uncertain fight... acceptable. Doing it again and again? Not likely. And... what if the side that lost the first time wins the next? Maybe they don't cough up territory, maybe they provide their employer with a victory he wasn't expecting! Yep. To be honest, I really don't care what you decide to write up, and I wasn't the one chasing up your description for inclusion in this argument. However, your blanket statement of, "because of that I woudn't hire them," appears not to grasp the reason why I came up with the idea, as well as why employers might be willing to give elite, trustworthy troops a little slack in those rare cases where they might be fighting family members. And why players and DMs in a setting that has many things that don't make sense in the real world be willing to use these ideas. If you want to run a Dragonlancey campaign with ideas like this and spread those ideas around, thats cool, go for it. Considering Eberron is pulp/noir, there is a definate cinematic air to the way things are done in Eberron. Settling a battle via contest of champions is something I can see happening in such a setting. Sports, I admit, is an extreme example, but allows people options. And what does Dragonlance have to do with this? In DL this would sort of situation would never arrise. There it is primarily a battle of good vs. evil, and there is no professional neutral organizations of mercs. Myself, I'm pretty glad its not canon. Can't please everyone. However, since I'm happy with it and the majority seem to appreciate the options I've presented, I'm quite satisfied.
Splendide 02-13-06, 07:05 PM	He's paid House Deneith to attempt to defend/capture the mine. And if its in perfect working order, he has a chance to capture it at a later date.If he has already lost because he doesn't have enough money to equal forces with the other guy, then both spending money on Deneith mercenaries that won't fight AND giving up a fully functioning mine will not improve matters. Besides, everyone who sends troops in expects to win.Everyone who sends troops in hopes to win. They expect a fight. Here's a link to an interesting real-world scenario (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/christmas_1914_and_world_war_one.htm) showing what employers think of troops that won't fight. Now assume his opponent hired a unit not well known to the other unit, and they fight over the mine. Now the mine is destroyed in the fighting and the winner gets what? A depleted force that is defending a piece of nothing that is going to take more money invested to get it back into shape. Pyrrhic victory indeed.Your `pyrrhic victory' is my scorched earth policy. If its good enough to keep Napoleon at bay, its good enough for anything. It is the natural role of the probable loser to dissuade the winner from contemplating attack by threatening controlled resources. The possibility of giving up a fully-functional asset does anything but. Why do you think the oil fires in Iraq got the US so panicked during their invasion? Really? He paid for the chance to hold/capture the mine. You hire troops because you expect them to win, but there are no garanettes (sp) in life. Yes he lost. He's unhappy. He's out money. He complains the troops weren't worth it. I'm not denying this. Guess what? Had they fought a pitched battle and his side still lost, he would be in exactly the same situation.You're ignoring the role of customer satisfaction. When he is complaining that the troops weren't worth it, you know what? He's right. And the outcome of this little game of honor will be visible across Khorvaire as a reason not to hire Deneith. They take your money and don't even fight for you when your assets are on the line. And what happens if the winning side was the one that was outnumbered? Better skills, better training, and motivation can overcome numerical advantages.All the more reason why the employer would be dissatisfied that the martial skills he hired his unit for weren't employed, and instead their ability to play football was. Who hires mercs on their ability to play theoretical games? You're making the claim that the unit will fold the first chance it gets. I'm not implying that. First of all, it has to be a unit, of the same Guild, they know well. Otherwise they'll fight. Second, there has to be a reason why both sides would want to settle it without too much bloodshed. If either side has a clear advantage, they'll fight. Third, the pride of the unit has to maintained. If not crossing swords would damage the pride of their fighting men, they'll fight.These were all given factors when I asked you to present the scenario where two squads refusing to fight off would be taken. To repeat this: from a client-side perspective, can you think of/depict any situation where both sides in a conflict would a) refuse to use other means of negotiation and b) still be happy to pay House Deneith to play wargames instead of fighting? All these points you just raised are filler to obfuscate the real issue. However, your blanket statement of, "because of that I woudn't hire them," appears not to grasp the reason why I came up with the idea, as well as why employers might be willing to give elite, trustworthy troops a little slack in those rare cases where they might be fighting family members.You haven't presented a valid reason why employers would rather hire troops that will play wargames instead of fight, so its pretty obvious why a) I supposedly don't understand it and b) I wouldn't hire them. If they are elite and trustworthy, then they are trustworthy enough to realise how important it is that they actually fight for the issue, and they're professional enough to realise that they are in fact employed to fight. Considering Eberron is pulp/noir, there is a definate cinematic air to the way things are done in Eberron.I really don't see how two mercenaries squads not fighting could be seen as cinematic. Two mercenary squads of relative throwing themselves at each other to their mutual destruction, now thats cinema. Settling a battle via contest of champions is something I can see happening in such a setting.This is ultimately where we disagree. I would argue that this is a privilege of nations, not of employed mercenaries. And what does Dragonlance have to do with this? In DL this would sort of situation would never arrise. There it is primarily a battle of good vs. evil, and there is no professional neutral organizations of mercs. Because Dragonlance is the sort of setting where silly storybook things like this would happen, and the reality of people still being people is overlooked. Can't please everyone. However, since I'm happy with it and the majority seem to appreciate the options I've presented, I'm quite satisfied.Like I said, I'm not seeking to give you feedback, and I doubt anyone else that disagrees with stuff you've put together has tried to either. Your work isn't canon, so you could be putting the smurf village in the cogs of Sharn and it wouldn't really matter.
The Fireballed Mage 02-14-06, 03:22 PM	Everyone who sends troops in hopes to win. They expect a fight. Here's a link to an interesting real-world scenario (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/christmas_1914_and_world_war_one.htm) showing what employers think of troops that won't fight. All this example showed is that the troops in a furious war are willing to forget the fact they're trying to kill each other for a few hours and have some fun. Sure the generals were annoyed, but this was an example of a national armies: not mercs belonging to the same guild. Thus it has no basis on this discussion. Your `pyrrhic victory' is my scorched earth policy. If its good enough to keep Napoleon at bay, its good enough for anything. If you want to engage in total warfare, yes. If you see House Deneith as promoting an ideal of more honourable, trustworthy, and elite mercs (and thus justify their hirer prices and preminent position), who are not as emotionally invested in the conflict (other than staying alive and getting paid), then what I'm suggesting can work for the rare cases it applies. It is the natural role of the probable loser to dissuade the winner from contemplating attack by threatening controlled resources. The possibility of giving up a fully-functional asset does anything but. Why do you think the oil fires in Iraq got the US so panicked during their invasion? Because they were not protected by skilled mercs who didn't have an emotionally charged reason to engage in a scorched earth policy. If your client orders it or its in the best interests of the unit, yeah. But in the semi-fedual nature of Eberron's world, there may very well be times where there is no reason to scorch the earth. You're ignoring the role of customer satisfaction. When he is complaining that the troops weren't worth it, you know what? He's right. And the outcome of this little game of honor will be visible across Khorvaire as a reason not to hire Deneith. They take your money and don't even fight for you when your assets are on the line. Again, elite, trustworthy troops who in nearly every case carry out your orders effectively and with great skill... the best money can buy... in very rare cases choose to fight a battle in a less bloodthirsty manner. No, I don't see that as being too much of a stretch for most. To repeat this: from a client-side perspective, can you think of/depict any situation where both sides in a conflict would a) refuse to use other means of negotiation and b) still be happy to pay House Deneith to play wargames instead of fighting? All these points you just raised are filler to obfuscate the real issue. Negotiation has nothing to do with this. It's been tried, failed, and mercs have been hired. Negotiation is off the table. No losing side will ever be happy. The losing client will always complain the mercs didn't give them their money's worth. So the members of the same guild didn't kill each other, but did put in an effort to win you the battle. Not saying the client would like it, but the benefits from hiring high quality troops outweighs the rare cases they might try and win your fights without killing their kin. I think your argument boils down to: "The client will be angry the mercs didn't die for his cause." My argument boils down to: "The client will still be angry, but this is a rare situation, and the other benefits outweigh this." You haven't presented a valid reason why employers would rather hire troops that will play wargames instead of fight, so its pretty obvious why a) I supposedly don't understand it and b) I wouldn't hire them. And I've expressed why they would hire Deneith troops and why in special situations Deneith personnel may act that way. So you hire other mercs who don't have this problem. I hire Deneith troops, and since Deneith troops are (by the writing of the world) better, I win the battle. Your call. If they are elite and trustworthy, then they are trustworthy enough to realise how important it is that they actually fight for the issue, and they're professional enough to realise that they are in fact employed to fight. And for the most part they are fighting; I've made that clear. I doubt these non-bloody battles would happen all that often, but it could happen, and allows people options to use it if they want. I really don't see how two mercenaries squads not fighting could be seen as cinematic. Two mercenary squads of relative throwing themselves at each other to their mutual destruction, now thats cinema. The openning battle in 'Troy' comes to mind, where a fight of champions starts things off. It also gives the opportunity for DMs to have a small unit of experts --the PCs-- decide the outcome of a conflict. This is ultimately where we disagree. Which is fine. Because Dragonlance is the sort of setting where silly storybook things like this would happen, and the reality of people still being people is overlooked. Really? I've read the six core Dragonlance books and there was never a situation where anything like this happened. And yet, from the link you presented, in real life soldiers of opposing national armies choose to put aside their hate for a day and play a game. Opposing soldiers of national armies did this. Members of the same guild, fighting each other for money not national pride, might try something less than total war against each other. The reality of people is that a person may try other things than killing his father simply because some client ordered it. Like I said, I'm not seeking to give you feedback, and I doubt anyone else that disagrees with stuff you've put together has tried to either. I've had discussions with others who've questioned my choices. You're not the first. Your work isn't canon, As I've repeatedly stated: never claimed it was. so you could be putting the smurf village in the cogs of Sharn and it wouldn't really matter. Except I haven't done anything so foolish. I've presented DMs and players with what most feel are reasonable options. If you don't feel that way, well, happy gaming.