Post/Author/DateTime	Post
olshanski_home 09-15-04, 03:26 PM	Am I the only one that thinks that a warforged or warforged with adamantine body really messes up a lot of low-level challenges? First: the immunities: Poison, paralysis, sleep, stunning, starvation, drowning... a lot of interesting encounters are not so interesting against a warforged... some monsters rely only on thier poison, or the fact that they spread disease.... then you've got traps like rooms filling with water... all of those are pretty much worthless vs a warforged. What about a warforged vs a carrion crawler? so much for those tentacle attacks. Second: The DR. A 1st level warforged with adamantine body can enter a coop of 10 cockatrice and not suffer any harm... the cockatrice does 1d4-2 damage with its bite, and without the bite causing any harm, no possibility of petrification. I am sure that a lot of people are going to say "put in more social encounters" or "design different encounters". Yeah, I could do that, but I'd also like to run some of my encounters as-is using regular D&D monsters. It seems like I cannot rely on CR to indicate how an encounter is going to work if there is a warforged involved. Do any other DMs feel the same? or am I just a big whiner?
Dauntless 09-15-04, 03:30 PM	I agree that warforged have a slew of combat-related bonuses. However, combat shouldn't be the only thing going on. If anything, combat in Eberron is supposed to happen LESS often (just be more dangerous when it does).
Hergrom 09-15-04, 03:44 PM	Unfortunately you just need to adapt it to the warforged. Sure it might be able to clean up that cockatrice coop but toss in a suprise, maybe one of their previous lunches was an artificer who was carrying a device that had a disable construct spell buried in it. In the middle of him taking them all out either him or one of the cockatrices steps on the device activating it. That'll hurt the warforged but not the rest of his party. It might be cheap but if necessary toss in tricks that will only focus on the warforged to rebalance the encounter.
Ch@pel 09-15-04, 03:51 PM	Well, unless the whole party is war forged, all those situations, like poisoned doors and rooms filling with water, will still be VERY involving for the war forged. Just because he isn't the one getting poisoned and he doesn't have to worry about drowning doesn't mean his friends have the same advantages. He still has to work just as hard to figure out the problem to save them; no one is going to let their friends just drown while he hangs out and does nothing. Also, remember that there are lots of things that war forged have to worry about that most races don't need to deal with. Throw a juvenile rust monster at a low level party and see which of your PCs has the advantage. Low level chars shouldn't be too worried about losing a weapon; it probably isn't all THAT expensive to replace. But that rust monster could easily be the last thing the WF sees. Remember he's made of wood AND metal, so lots of spells like warp wood and chill metal work much better on him. Don't worry too much about the advantages of being a WF. For that matter you could say that using darkness as an encounter element is useless if the party has a dwarf or another race with darkvision. He may be able to see in the dark, but that doesn't mean his whole party can. Use that difference in abilities to your advantage. It will increase the excitement of RPing between the PCs if the WF can swim (or sink) to the bottom of a deep pool of water, but if he has to solve a puzzle down there, he may have to get help from another, smarter party member somehow. Playing on the different advantages and weaknesses in the party is difficult to plan for sometimes, but your players will love it. It makes them feel like their char is special.
Saurenda 09-15-04, 03:52 PM	Do any other DMs feel the same? or am I just a big whiner? I never had any trouble with warforged. Make them perform a DC 5 balance check. -8 racial penalty plus dex mod. Most can't do it. Sheik's 13 cannot do it for the life of how much he is a tank. Again warforged are a different animal. Why not play a chase? No way they can win that with all the turns and twists and outfoxing a rouge can do. It will run in circles for hours till it realizes whats wrong. Have you tried construct Bane sir? Have you tried making floor collapse under them? Have you tried exposing them to salt water? Have you tried an enemy artificer who does inflict moderate damage, or inflict light damage?
Saurenda 09-15-04, 03:54 PM	Heartburn, nauesa, indigestion, upset stomach, posion immunity. Hey! Living Construct!
Bluebrush 09-15-04, 04:13 PM	the cockatrice does 1d4-2 damage with its bite, and without the bite causing any harm, no possibility of petrification. I think there's been discussion about this. Are warforged immune to petrification.
Solarious 09-15-04, 09:50 PM	Don't forget that Warforged are rather messy to repair. They are still susceptable to ability damage, and if you don't have access to the proper restoration spells, they need to be repaired, and that means about 8 hours of hammering where 2 people won't be able to get any appropiate rest (not that it matters to the Warforged, unless they are spellcasters themselves ;)). They -must- be repaired with spells or craft checks: having to use up spell slots immediately after rest to patch up the party's Warforged reduces the combat efficiency of the party, not to bemoan having to spend 16 hours in one place to effectively gain complete rest for everyone. And as said earlier, Warforged are constructs, and thus are susceptible to all kinds of nasty spells that would be an annoyance to other characters. The chill/heat metal spells are good, warp wood sorta okay, rust monsters an absolutely deadly menace, and don't forget the anti-construct line of spells, etc. But mostly, their lack of natural regeneration and regular healing spell's lack of effectiveness on them makes up for their superior combat abilities and immunities (which IS what they were made for, after all).
Valheru 09-16-04, 09:51 AM	Well, unless the whole party is war forged, all those situations, like poisoned doors and rooms filling with water, will still be VERY involving for the war forged. Just because he isn't the one getting poisoned and he doesn't have to worry about drowning doesn't mean his friends have the same advantages. He still has to work just as hard to figure out the problem to save them; no one is going to let their friends just drown while he hangs out and does nothing. Clearly you have never met the player of the warforged in our party. :nonono: He would sit around and watch us all drown for the fun of it. And/or he found it funny. And yes it does bug the heck out of me. Petrification is not listed under their immunities, and since armor, clothes, and equipment is typically included in depictations of petrification, they should still be able to be turned to stone. Interesting note, did you know that the save to avoid petrification of a basilisk is lower then the save to survive a stone to flesh spell? Random thought. :cool:
ENHenry 09-16-04, 09:58 AM	An adamantine Warforged dropped off the side of a boat isn't going to be re-joining the party anytime soon. Might as well have killed him for the presence he's going to contribute after that. Warforged also have one other feature that I like - the automatic stabilization. This means if a villain disables a warforged, he can keep him around for a while,without worrying about him escaping.
jonthegm 09-16-04, 12:14 PM	Heat/Chill metal is a nasty spell... Our artificer is using it to such effective ends (especially since the Forged Paladin sits and draws all the attacks) that I'm considering hitting the two warforged in the party with it any time I can... (until disable construct is available to their enemies... muahahahaha!)
Edymnion 09-16-04, 12:39 PM	Clearly you have never met the player of the warforged in our party. :nonono: He would sit around and watch us all drown for the fun of it. And/or he found it funny. And yes it does bug the heck out of me.Then why is he in the party? Rule number 1 of adventuring, you must be able to rely on your friends. If somebody in the party doesn't care if you live or die, then you dump him in the next town you come across (if you're kind), and get a replacement later. A party member that won't watch your back is worse than not having a party member at all.
Iron_Weasel 09-16-04, 01:34 PM	Then why is he in the party? Rule number 1 of adventuring, you must be able to rely on your friends. If somebody in the party doesn't care if you live or die, then you dump him in the next town you come across (if you're kind), and get a replacement later. A party member that won't watch your back is worse than not having a party member at all. Agreed. Assuming you are not the only person in the group upset by this player's callous disregard for the other PCs, you should bring this up with the DM, who should ask the player to change his attitude or find another group to play with. No one should be allowed to ruin the experience for everyone else. /OT As for Warforged, the WF Barbarian in the group I DM for is a challenge not because he's WF, but because he has a ridiculous number of HP - he managed to roll his max on each of his first three levels! Cheers!
olshanski_home 09-16-04, 03:47 PM	I never said that the warforged with adamantine body is "immune to petrification." I did say that there is no possibility of petrification by a cockatrice. Cockatrice do 1d4-2 points of damage. This is a maximum of 2. Adamantine Body has DR 2/adamantine. Thus, all cockatrice damage is negated. If the damage from an attack is negated, the Extrordinary ability does not work either. Thus, the warforged can hang out all day without fear of taking any damage or getting petrified by a cockatrice. As far as handicapping the DM: There are a lot of low-level challenges that are gone when the party has a warforged (or warforged with adamantine armor). River filled with pirhanna: no drowning hazard, pirhanna cannot penetrate DR. Disease-ridden pile of slop: immune to disease. Mine shaft with poison gas: immune to poison. Inkeeper drugs party's dinner: immune to poison, doesn't eat. Demi-plane with haunted sleep preventing rest: warforged don't sleep. Heat Metal: give me a break. Most battles are done in 3 rounds... during that time your "heat metal" spell has inflicted 2d4 points of damage... it even allows a saving throw!. Wouldn't a 3rd level caster be able to cast "magic missile" that does more damage, in a shorter amount of time, with a lower level spell? Or am I totally mistaken about how heat metal works? does it do 10x damage against warforged? Granted, heat metal is a druid spell and magic missile is arcane... but a 2nd level spell should be a little stronger against what is argueably its prime target. Chalk this up to me being a newcomer to Ebberon, but where does it say that saltwater inflicts any particular damage to warforged, or that warforged are unable to swim? I think that the rust monster 2d6 damage is not as bad as a human who loses his armor or weapon. When you are out adventuring, you can repair 2d6 damage overnight. You cannot replace a 300 gp suit of masterwork breastplate. Regarding the "healing" conundrum. As far as I see it, either the party has to stock up on "repair" spells, or else the warforged is simply a sponge, using up twice as many of the cleric's healing spells as anyone else. In this way, not only is the warforged still a powerful character, but he is also making clerics less fun to play. Regarding the "no natural healing"... An average construct with 14 INT, taking no feats at all, can repair damage overnight at the same rate that a normal flesh-and-blood character gets resting. Albeit this requires an investment in skill points. Heaven forbid you have a warforged with a higher intelligence... they can now repair damage overnight faster than their flesh-and-blood companions can.
Edymnion 09-16-04, 04:40 PM	Have you actually spent any amount of time playing with a Warforged, either as a Player or as a DM? Trust me, you are seriously overestimating their immunities to things here. Yes, they're differant, but they've got some huge drawbacks that you are underestimating. If anything, the Warforged came out a little on the underpowered side when all is said and done. Don't be fooled into thinking they're uber just because their racial information is a page long, most of it is drawbacks.
Just another user 09-16-04, 06:50 PM	I never said that the warforged with adamantine body is "immune to petrification." I did say that there is no possibility of petrification by a cockatrice. Cockatrice do 1d4-2 points of damage. This is a maximum of 2. Adamantine Body has DR 2/adamantine. Thus, all cockatrice damage is negated. If the damage from an attack is negated, the Extrordinary ability does not work either. Thus, the warforged can hang out all day without fear of taking any damage or getting petrified by a cockatrice. Not totally exact. the cockatrices could always roll a critical.
Fromost the Grimm 09-16-04, 08:07 PM	. . . and let's not forget the non-dice rolling aspects of being 'Forged which should be a factor in any role-playing campaign. You are a construct. You have no real history, no real culture. You feel alienated wherever you go, and if you go to certain cities, you may get 'repossessed' if your manufacturing mark denotes you as one of theirs. You don't fully know what's happened to you, or what's happening to you - do you honestly think House Cannith wouldn't have at least entertained the idea of secretly implanting a host of remote-activated domination gems in a few batches of 'Forged . . ? Yes, the last week's adventuring with your soft-skin friends was relatively easy for you. In combat, you could easily account for the goblins you faced. And when the party Wizard worked out that the key you needed was at the bottom of the deep, water-filled well shaft, sinking to the bottom to retrieve it wasn't difficult, and squashing a few barracuda on the way wasn't worth mentioning. Sure, it then took them two days to work out a way to lift you out again, but you were happy down there without fear of suffocation. You were a little worried when the party Rogue - who's fast becoming a good friend - fell into that disease-ridden bog trap, but you were happy to wade in to get her out . . . and the party Cleric seems to think it's be okay if you get her to a temple soon. All in all, an interesting week, but still you're happy to finally get to the local township to rest up in a less stressful environment. You stroll up to the only tavern/inn, your friends bowl on in to the lure of a warm fire, heady mead and a well-earned hot meal and camaraderie . . . and you're stopped at the door by the surly guard because "they don't like your type in here." And so it's another night in the stables for you . . .
straylance 09-16-04, 08:16 PM	The -2 to damage is from strength, for a cockatrice? Then, who says there is not a cockatrice with slightly above average strength? Remember that all mob stats are very basic (usually 10-11) before adding racial modifiers. I doubt your PCs fall into the same category.
Gurv 09-16-04, 08:26 PM	You are right that a warforged changes what might be a difficult encounter by being immune to a slew of things. But if you are playing in Eberron, then you have decided to play in a setting where encounters are different from the norm. Think of Data from ST:TNG. How many plots revolved around him being immune to some phenomenom that the human crew couldn't handle? How many times did they accomplish what would be impossible without him? And how many times did they have to go to extra-ordinary lengths to save him after he was sent where no one else could survive? Sure your warforged can dive to the bottom of the ocean to retrieve the magic ring, but now he's all alone down there....how pulp noir can you get? He's the only one who can get through the snake pit? the vacuum chamber? the tunnel submerged in disease-ridden filth? Let's split up gang. Not to mention the drawbacks of a warforged. For ever episode that came to mind before, now recall ST:TNG episodes revolving around Data's INABILITY to cope with something. Warforged suffer from effects that humans ignore. Warforged weigh nearly 300lbs. Who carries them home when they go down? An enlarge effect means they weigh around 2400lbs. There is no rule (that I can find) stating the weight increase when someone is turned to stone, but use your imagination. Basically, being warforged is awesome for many reasons. But they are new, and very little has been done to address the issue of how they deal with many situations. Use the situations. For every time they are immune to a problem, there should be one that they are the cause of. And remember that just because the warforged can do thing humans can't, unless he is willing to go on without the rest of the party, he might as well be unable.
WotC_Doog 09-16-04, 09:29 PM	Great post, Gurv. The Data analogy is most apt. It has helped my thoughts on the matter, for one. The discussion brings to mind a favorite character of mine from another fantasy game. The details aren't important, but suffice it to say that the character was a strong, tough race similar to warforged. He was a great tank and was amazing on paper, but he weighed a LOT. Just that fact balanced him out: we spent SO much time getting him across rope bridges, lowering him down abandoned mine shafts, balancing him in rickety boats, and generally taking the long way around due to his size, that the party was groaning about him as often as they were cheering his ability to tank through the DM's monsters. (Good times, good times. :cloud9: ) The weight of warforged might not be a huge deal like it was for that character. But as Gurv points out, I think you'll see that most of the advantages the 'forged possess are balanced by being isolating, complicated and problematic too. (And therefore, great for RPing.)