Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 02-03-05, 02:26 PM	I've decided for the Eberron campaign to give the players a warforged companion. This is normally of course, no big deal but I want to establish that the warforged himself is a being that...under normal circumstances....would be a Caesar or Napoleon of his race but can't because of the nature of his species. I was hoping that people might help me get into the mindset of a warforged and what motivates them. Obviously, Warforged are robots but what does it MEAN to be a robot in the world of Eberron? Essentially, they've gone for granted what we live with....a time to assert our independence. ALL Warforged have grown up as property rather than people though I mean, unless they've stated otherwise, a Warforged has no desire for sex or food or really feel pain though I take it that they are aware of damage and how much 'pressure' on their gears. That really takes alot of the motivation out of normal human relationships. Do they have "desires" implanted in them or are they motivated solely by orders and whatever destiny they make for themselves? Otherwise, won't they fear their independence?
Lujayne34 02-03-05, 03:58 PM	Actually the warforged are not robots. They are living beings. Their creation process somehow infused life into them...hence the name living constructs. Althought they do not experience things in the same way (and obviously at this point cannot sexually reproduce) they do experience different emotions, and such. Pick up Keith Baker's new novel City of Towers. One character in there is a warforged Ranger named Pierce. And the book deals with some of these very questions. Also see the Ask Keith Baker threads above. It has been addressed there as well. Also check out the Race/Class Boards here. There have been many discussions on it about warforged.
Hakan 02-05-05, 07:22 AM	I'm a geek shoot me. But I love the idea of playing him as Data or Spok from Star Trek, depending on his class/stats etc. If you're drawn to the non-organic contrast. Mkae him curious about those very emotions and needs you described. Lots of room for humor and genuine bonding with the PC's. As always: Whatever works for you.
Draamal 02-05-05, 08:57 AM	I still have an npc warforged monk who has been cloistered since he was made by monks who took a vow of silence. All he knows he learned from the library so I was going to have a blast playing him. "So, you're female? When are you gestating? I'd like to observe." Unfortunately he doesn't fit into my plans anytime soon.
Charles Phipps 02-05-05, 03:31 PM	Maybe the Moderator should move this to the Class/Monsters/etc forum. I'm actually reminded a great deal of the Clone Troopers from "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones." The warforged are individuals who were created en masse to live as an army for the Republic/their faction of Gallifar. They have literally been 'Born' for the army. Rather than destroy them, the grateful (?) nations chose instead to make them into citizens. You've never had parents and you've lived totally for battle your entire life so what DO you do? It's an interesting conundrum that I play in my games that the vast majority of warforged try and find new "owners" and "commanders" to tell them what to do. The few warforged that have independence are largely those whom were in command positions themselves during the war.
Trannic 02-05-05, 03:51 PM	The big thing to remember is to remember is that, unless you were created agter the war, either by Merrix D'Cannith or the Lord of Blades, the only things you have done are combat or military related. You are looking for your "place" in this world, a world that often scorns you as an unwelcome reminder of something they would rather forget. This my be odd, but watch Disney's Lilo and Stitrch, it's actually got the whole finding place theme to it, in a somewhat entertaining cartoon format. I, myself am playing a Warforged Ranger/Extreme Explorer, who is disillusioned with "normal" society, and has come in conflict with the Lord of Blades as well, finding his views to be a bit too militant for my characters tastes. I ended up having him earn the trust of a small Gnome village by being a hunter in a local forest who kept aberrations at bay. Now he is adventuring for the experience of doing different things, like climbing and spelunking, and getting attacked by wyverns. He's hoping to "fit in" better this way.
leopardmessiah 02-05-05, 05:20 PM	Since they were built to serve in a specific nations army, making them highly patriotic or even nationalistic (sp?) might be interesting.
Gez 02-05-05, 11:21 PM	Warforged are a PC race. Which means they do not have free will, they must obey slavishly to the will of their player. Well, actually, of course they have free will. You can't roleplay something without free will (because then it wouldn't be roleplaying game anyway, but storytelling or staged theater or something like that).
Edymnion 02-05-05, 11:47 PM	I was hoping that people might help me get into the mindset of a warforged and what motivates them. Obviously, Warforged are robots but what does it MEAN to be a robot in the world of Eberron?Obviously you haven't actually read the Warforged entry :P Warforged are not robots. They are a fully developed sentient race. They have emotions, desires, and everything else, just like any other race. ALL Warforged have grown up as property rather than people thoughWell, I wouldn't say grown up. They don't grow up, they walk out of the Creation Forge and they get to work. I mean, unless they've stated otherwise, a Warforged has no desire for sex or food or really feel pain though I take it that they are aware of damage and how much 'pressure' on their gears. That really takes alot of the motivation out of normal human relationships.No one said they have no sense of pain. Warforged are not immune to spells that cause pain, like Symbol of Pain. It hurts them just as much as any fleshie.Do they have "desires" implanted in them or are they motivated solely by orders and whatever destiny they make for themselves? Otherwise, won't they fear their independence?Unless specifically stated otherwise, the Warforged are just like any other race. They are alive, they have a living soul. The Clone Wars bit is really pretty darn close to what the Warforged are. Created to serve as an army, they are just as much real people as anybody else.
Charles Phipps 02-05-05, 11:53 PM	Obviously you haven't actually read the Warforged entry :P Warforged are not robots. They are a fully developed sentient race. They have emotions, desires, and everything else, just like any other race. Who says robots can't be a self-willed race? The Matrix, Terminator, Asimov, and countless other works portray robots as just as innately intelligent and self willed as any. Well, I wouldn't say grown up. They don't grow up, they walk out of the Creation Forge and they get to work. Exactly, why its important to ask what reaction this will have. No one said they have no sense of pain. Warforged are not immune to spells that cause pain, like Symbol of Pain. It hurts them just as much as any fleshie.Unless specifically stated otherwise, the Warforged are just like any other race. I think that statement is personally very misleading and I frankly think that its not something Hellcow our developer ever intended but is meant to be a shorthand for things. Can you imagine Warforged 1. Equipped for Sex? 2. Having to use the Bathroom? Neither of these were mentioned. I think certainly its important that you should treat their pain centers in RPGing, if nothing else, as different. They are alive, they have a living soul. I never said they didn't. They are essentially clones bred for combat though. The Clone Wars bit is really pretty darn close to what the Warforged are. Created to serve as an army, they are just as much real people as anybody else. Exactly, and I want to think on the effects of that. I doubt free will was encouraged, it was a sideeffect.
Edymnion 02-06-05, 12:09 AM	Who says robots can't be a self-willed race? The Matrix, Terminator, Asimov, and countless other works portray robots as just as innately intelligent and self willed as any.Well, its a matter of terminology, actually. Robot implies that the creature is a clockwork type construction, and that any form of mind they have is artificial. The Warforged are more like golems than they are clockwork creatures. They don't have gears or flywheels, they are solid pieces of wood, stone, and steel, with a few misc other things thrown in there. You could build an exact replica of one, but it would just be a fancy statue. And their minds and souls are not artificial, they're the exact same as anybody elses, hence the fact they can be ressurected, and even reincarnated as a "normal" race. I think that statement is personally very misleading and I frankly think that its not something Hellcow our developer ever intended but is meant to be a shorthand for things.No, he's pretty much said the same thing. Warforged can smell and taste, despite not needing to breath or eat. They can feel pain (although it may not be the same type of sensation we have), and try to avoid it. Overall, the WF are to be treated as any other race, except where they are specifically said to be differant. I mean, the book never says that a WF is capable of feeling something that touches them. And after all, they're made out of wood and stone and metal, therefore they can't have touch receptive nerves like we do, so you can rub one up all day and they'll never know it, right? No, if you tap one on the shoulder, they're going to feel it, and turn around to see what you want. Again, they aren't robots. They're magical beings. It doesn't have to make logical sense why they do something, they just do. And you can't use the old "Made for war, and XXXX has nothing to do with war, so they don't do it" argument. The WF were not originally made for war, Cannith just used some schema from Xen'Drik to recreate them. And he couldn't really fine tune them, so they came with a whole bunch of unneeded abilities, like emotions, a sense of taste, and all the rest. Thats why we have the WF as player races in the first place, because Cannith couldn't fine tune the living soul out of one. Can you imagine Warforged 1. Equipped for Sex? 2. Having to use the Bathroom?No, but they're not supposed to. They are specifically said to be incapable of reproducing on their own, and that they do not eat. Those are two areas where they are specifically said to be differant from other races.Neither of these were mentioned. I think certainly its important that you should treat their pain centers in RPGing, if nothing else, as different.Yes, but there is a huge differance between saying that their sense of pain might be differant and saying that they have no sense of pain at all, that they just register damage. Its like the differance between saying someone doesn't have the same taste in food that you do (they don't like spicey or sour things, for example), therefore they don't eat. Of course they do, they just don't eat the same things that you do. Same with the WF. Just because they may not feel pain in the exact same way that we do doesn't mean they don't feel it. Exactly, and I want to think on the effects of that. I doubt free will was encouraged, it was a sideeffect.Yup, I have a character background for a WF Paladin that essentially starts off with that concept, and follows through the steps of what that would mean for that particular character. I'll copy and paste it for you in case you want to give a read: This is the tale of a Warforged, a warforged without a name. For the ease of the reader, we shall refer to this warforged simply as Blank. Blank, like most of his warforged brethern, was a lowly combatant during the War. He went where he was told, he fought who he was told to fight. Like the others, he did not question why he did what he did, it was simply the way of things. He was not happy, he was not sad, the days simply came and went, and he did as he was told. Until, one day, things changed. His commander addressed his unit, he said that the War was over, and that they were free. But what did "free" mean? All he understood was that, in a very short time, he had been given a small pouch of metal disks, coins, and was put outside, without orders. Blank did not know what to do, he had never been prepared for anything like this. From the day he first awoke beneath the towering Creation Forge, up to that day, he had been told what to do. His life had order, it was predictable, orderly. But now, now things were differant. He did not know what to do, and there was no one to tell him. For a short time, he stayed with a group of other warforged from his unit, who were themselves in equal dissarray. He tried to learn about the new world he found himself in, but the more he learned, the more he despaired. The world outside of his unit was chaotic. People came and went without rhyme nor reason, and more often than not reacted violently to him whenever he tried to speak with them. Emotions, he did not understand why some were happy, while others were angry, when despair was the only thing he found himself capable of. There was no one to help repair him, and as time passed, his body wore down more and more. Blank often found himself wondering what it would be like to no longer exist. In fact, in the later days, he would sit in the alleys, in pouring rain or baking sun, looking within himself, and found nothing looking back. Until one day, a man approached him. Instead of fear, or anger, Blank saw something new in his eyes, pity and sympathy. When the man asked Blank to come with him, he did not argue, he simply rose and followed. He was lead to a large building, made of white stone, and shown inside. There, young men and women in simple robes cleaned the grim of the streets from his joints, and fixed his hurts. Blank looked up to them, and spoke his first words in many long months. "Why would you help me? I have nothing to offer you." They responded with an answer he could not then understand, "Because it is the right thing to do." He was given a small room, which they told him was his for as long as he might need it. Not knowing what else to do, Blank stayed with these people, and came to know them. He saw them labor and toil, grow tired, and be forced to stop. One day, when one of the older men stopped to rest, Blank picked up the man's burden, and asked where it should be taken. "May the Flame shine on you" the old man said. What flame? There was no fire here, just a stone hall, and the wooden bench upon which the man sat. When questioned, the old man simply laughed. "Why, don't you know where you are, metal man? You are within the halls of the Silver Flame, which lights our path and gives us guidence in our darkest hour." Guidence. He had been looking for that ever since the day he was released from the War. That day, Blank's life changed. The old man took him to one he called father, although this man was obviously far too young to be the father of the elder. It was from this man he learned of the message of the Silver Flame. To help those in need, as he had once been. To protect those who could not protect themselves, to be a light in the darkness. Somewhere inside of him, Blank felt something happen, something he could not explain. It was if a spark had flashed inside of him, and where he had seen only nothingness before, now he found something new. It was small, but after so long of having nothing, it seemed great to him. Blank listened, and he learned. The Church of the Silver Flame existed to fight evil, that which was dark and wanted everything else to be dark as well. The more he learned, the more he felt that initial spark grow. First into an ember, and then finally a small flame, like a candle in the night. He finally understood why they had helped him so long ago (long ago for him, anyway). Because it was the right thing to do. Blank committed himself to this cause, because it was right. Although he faced obsticals, Blank pressed himself onward. Even here, there were those that thought him nothing more than a living weapon, not worthy of the same respect as those who had been born, not made. But this drove him only harder to prove himself. His quiet, stoich manner gradually faded away as he became more outspoken, more comitted. He was little more than a weapon when he was made, a sword to be fought with until it sundered, to be replaced at need, all at the whim of another. But not now. He was still a weapon, but now he was his own weapon, and now he had his own cause to fight. Blank wiped away what he had been. The insignia of his old military unit was engraved into his forehead, but that didn't matter, not when it could be covered. Blank endured the process to have the insignia of the Silver Flame permanently attatched to his forehead, over the old engraving. That day, Blank died. The symbol of the Silver Flame being moved into place was like the earth put on the graves of the people that died in the area. When the last screw was in place, a new being sat up. Running his fingers over the shape of the arrowhead he would carry for the rest of his days, he realized that he needed a name. Months passed as he thought. In that time, he studied and trained. He worked his body, not in the same way the humans did, building muscle, but in a more litteral sense. Little by little, he replaced bits and pieces of his composite plating. What he couldn't replace, he reshaped. Finally, the day his training was completed, he walked into the great hall. As he passed the arched windows, the light glinted off of his newly finished armor. The smooth contours of his shoulder plates, the ripple of light playing off the back of his gold trimmed hands, the rhythmic click of his bootlike feet upon the stone floor. There was music in the air now, a somber tune that held an undercurrent of boundless hope. On the proper cue, he threw open the heavy wooden door, and walked down the path to the alter of the Silver Flame, where the man he had once heard called father stood, the man he now called Father himself stood. He was given the blessings of the Flame, was complimented on his perserverance, and charged with the lifelong duty of defending the innocent, helping those who could not help themselves, and to destroy evil wherever it appeared. At the end of the ceremony, Father said "Rise... I'm afraid I do not know the name in which you will serve the Flame, what do you now call yourself?" The Warforged raised his head, and spoke clearly, the light in his eyes growing strong with every word, until by the end, it raged like the fires of his heart. "When I was made, I was part of a greater whole, strong as a great slab of stone. Until, one day, the stone was broken, and I realized I was little more than a pebble, rolling down the side of a great hill. When I hit bottom, I was picked up by a man, and brought here. Here, I was subjected to the Flame, my doubts and fears were burned away, as the slag is burned out from the iron. I became pure as silver, and was then forged, strong as steel, into a weapon of the Light. Now, I pledge to spread the Flame, so that others may be tempered as I was. So I choose my name. I am the crucible, which will burn away the darkness, leaving only the good to shine in the eternal sunlight!" "Very well. Then raise, Crucible, defender of the Light, Paladin of the Silver Flame!"
Charles Phipps 02-06-05, 12:25 AM	I stand corrected on most of my points. I do want to see how the differences exist to largely get a better feel about them though.
ShadowStar42 02-06-05, 01:01 AM	Again, they aren't robots. They're magical beings. It doesn't have to make logical sense why they do something, they just do. And you can't use the old "Made for war, and XXXX has nothing to do with war, so they don't do it" argument. The WF were not originally made for war, Cannith just used some schema from Xen'Drik to recreate them. And he couldn't really fine tune them, so they came with a whole bunch of unneeded abilities, like emotions, a sense of taste, and all the rest. Thats why we have the WF as player races in the first place, because Cannith couldn't fine tune the living soul out of one. This isn't entirely accurate, while it's true that emotions weren't truely intentional (although even that is debatable) by the time they came about Warforged were already being produced specifically (and as far as I read exclusively) for war.
Ohtar Turinson 02-06-05, 10:45 AM	This isn't entirely accurate, while it's true that emotions weren't truely intentional (although even that is debatable) by the time they came about Warforged were already being produced specifically (and as far as I read exclusively) for war. However, no one knows what the giants in earlier ages used them for. Maybe they were construction workers. Maybe they were experiments. Who knows? The house Cannith Artificers didn't mean them to have emotion (I think Keith has stated this at some point in the AKB thread), but they couldn't get free thinking without emotions, and other, similar things. Made for war by house Cannith? Yes, of course. Hence Warforged. But the originals probably weren't made for war, or at least not war alone.
fizzbang 02-06-05, 12:05 PM	However, no one knows what the giants in earlier ages used them for. Maybe they were construction workers. Maybe they were experiments. Who knows? The house Cannith Artificers didn't mean them to have emotion (I think Keith has stated this at some point in the AKB thread), but they couldn't get free thinking without emotions, and other, similar things. Made for war by house Cannith? Yes, of course. Hence Warforged. But the originals probably weren't made for war, or at least not war alone. Actually, the novel "Cuty of Towers" has a couple warforged who certainly seem to have been created witht he intent of being servants to members of house Cannith. Undoubtedly, there were other warforged who were not necessarily meant to be warriors (and from these, players can draw all sorts of non-fighter warforged concepts). I generally play by the idea that warforged are the recreation of some ancient race the giants of Xen'drik had created/discovered, and that the designs for the forges gave the members of house Cannith very, very little control over the final outcome of the warforged they created. The Cannith members provided the materials, possibly attempted to make various suggestions ("put this nation's crest on them"), but the warforged that were created came out with a wide variety of builds, appearances and personalities (thus, different attributes). I think it makes for a racial background that's much more complex and rich with potential than every batch of warforged being exactly the same in appearance and so forth...
Gilgiga of the Hunt 02-06-05, 12:37 PM	For an interseting take on Warforged, our player plays him like Bender from Futurerama. Even came up with a good excuse for the rampant alcholism. Something about him being a prototype of a more living warforged. They baised his "blood" on alchol, but didn't give him a way to produce more. Hmm, Futruerama Robots do seem like a good paralell. They are artifical, but also sentient life forms.
grimwarden 02-06-05, 12:55 PM	@Edymnion ; great writing How about the following idea : The giants of Xen'drik build the warfroged as "soul-container" after their own body grew old and fragile ? This element anchored in the shematics House Cannith found and buildt apon. So the appearent ease of artifically creating truly living beings with souls. What do you think ? PS. I know that contradicts, what I have written somewhere else; it is just an idea.
Gurv 02-06-05, 02:00 PM	Pure theory, not something to be taken at face value: When the Cannith started making warforged, they were not sentient. They were just constructs. It took years before they managed that. It raises the question of whether the warforged of Xen'drik were sentient. Consider the possibility that they were not. But docents are found there. If you could create various forms of construct with docent slots, you would have a vastly superior design. The ability to have a mind that can outlast the body, to move to a body better suited to a task, is impressive. And it explains docents. Perhaps the Cannith artificers misunderstood what they found and put the sentience directly into their constructs. Maybe they understood, but couldn't figure out how to make docents. Maybe they had others reasons for doing it the way they did it. But there is no reason to assume that the warforged on Xen'drik were identical to modern warforged.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 02-06-05, 04:39 PM	Ohh, I like that Docent being an anchent warfoged brain thingy. Realy, realy, cool. In a Japanise after school, karate show, with ginat robots sort of way. You've got a normal sized warfoged, then when things get to troublesome you transfer into a jumbo body.
Kid SixXx 02-06-05, 06:43 PM	The Warforged indeed have free will, but realize that their role in society will always probably be the role they've had in the past: as specialized soldiers. The Warforged are smart enough to capitalize on this as well, since it seems that they've used their reputations as war machines to build a comfortable niche for themselves. Tactically, it stands to reason that they should have free will because free will makes them far dangerous than any construct could ever hope to be. As dangerous as an Iron Golem is, it will always remain a mindless automaton, but a Warforged has a soul. It feels pain, it can love or hate, and anyone will tell you that the most potentially lethal being on earth is the being that has a reason to protect something, or has a cause to fight or die for. I sometimes muse that the Warforged secretly hate being free of servitude and that the Last War finally ended. Now that there is no great battle to be fought, they seem to be meandering about in the world looking for some grander purpose. Some make their own way through post-war society as best they can, & have attempted to intergrate into society, and others, like the LoB, seem to chase down their original design and find reasons to wage war.
fizzbang 02-07-05, 12:26 AM	I sometimes muse that the Warforged secretly hate being free of servitude and that the Last War finally ended. Now that there is no great battle to be fought, they seem to be meandering about in the world looking for some grander purpose. Some make their own way through post-war society as best they can, & have attempted to intergrate into society, and others, like the LoB, seem to chase down their original design and find reasons to wage war. I suspect that there are as many potential attitudes held by warforged as there are warforged themselves. Certainly, there are many that will be looking for a way to continue what they're used to, or to be free of the terrifying burden of determining their own destiny. And there are probably many others that will see their freedom as a chance to become more than they were, or perhaps to emulate the humanoids they served with, and search out something they can call a home and a family. Vut remember that warforged, like humans or any other sentient creature, can have very strange revelations and rationalizations. You could find a callous, hate-filled warforged who blames humans for sacrificing so many of his brothers and sisters to die in a war that was never their decision. You could find a selfish warforged vagabond who decides that, since his creation was designed to protect humans, anything that leads to his own continued survival is a step towards allowing him to potentially protect humans in the future. And there are undoubtedly a few warforged that have chosen the path of the contempletive philosopher in an attempt to discover their place in the world. There are a wealth of directions for warforged to go. If I didn't already have a dozen character concepts in my head, I'd have my plate full of just warforged concepts!
Kid SixXx 02-07-05, 07:29 AM	And there are undoubtedly a few warforged that have chosen the path of the contempletive philosopher in an attempt to discover their place in the world. Oh, I completely agree. I fear that my earlier stated thoughts were incomplete as I was typing pretty early in the morning. Warforged can have a myriad of angles to examine, just as any sentient can. Class seems to almost designate function and behavior in some cases (the Dungeon module, Steel Shadows, is a pretty nice introductory piece into Warforged behavior), but this isn't always the case. Discussions like this make me look forward to the release of RoE.
fizzbang 02-07-05, 08:47 AM	Discussions like this make me look forward to the release of RoE. Definitely! I certainly hope the writer of the Warforged chapter explores some of these questions. Of course, if they're as dedicated to it as Keith, then I'm sure we'll all be quite happy. Although, honestly, I'm more interested in seeing some more depth for Shifters and Changelings. They may not present the immediate questions that warforged and kalashtar do, but I think they've got a great deal of potential for interesting racial backgrounds...