Do Warforged have... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do Warforged have... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZiD
09-02-04, 11:16 AM Do Warforged have souls? I mean, seriously, do they?

Being a living construct does not necessarily make them 'living', so to speak. They dont really have blood, organs, or any of that in essance, but they have free will and freedom to worship, make choices, and all that stuff. Yet its something I wonder... what about souls? Does a warforged cleric meet his god after he dies, or does he just... dissapate? Its not really explained in the handbook, but if you wanted to do like a 'soul journey' sort of quest, out of body experiences, etc. it would be useful to know. Any hints on this or am I just a freak haha

~JIM
m15a
09-02-04, 12:04 PM do *we* have souls!?!? :)

seriously though, i'd rather leave it open as just one of those interesting (and very very important and relevant) philosophical questions. i could imagine the intellectualites discussing that exact question.

remember that in eberron, the existance of gods is not certain. do cleric meet their gods? if they do, maybe it's just a halucination?
qwykee
09-02-04, 12:19 PM Seriously, try reading the book. Yes Warforged have souls, that is how they were "created" in the first place. Are they living? Now that is an interesting question. They don't have to eat, drink, deficate, or sleep. They can't procreate. So are they alive? I'd say no, they're really just walking talking Magic Jars.
Alac Luin
09-02-04, 12:20 PM Yes they do have souls.
The Kalashtar are worried about this, as they have no idea where they come from.

When worforged die, they go to Dolurrh, just like everyboby else in Ebberon.
Forge Master Gond
09-02-04, 12:25 PM i would say yes they have souls are they living probably. here is something interesting when the great druid orion or whatever was awakend did it gain a soul. he is just a tree but if you killed him would he go to the plane of the dead.
Cunning Gnome
09-02-04, 01:05 PM i'd of thought they got there souls from the same place everyone else gets theirs from. :confused:
Alac Luin
09-02-04, 01:11 PM i'd of thought they got there souls from the same place everyone else gets theirs from. :confused:

And that would be? j/k

What I stated earlier was from a statement Kieth made.

(my thoughts here)You would expect a race of a blending of 2 souls, fighting agienst a race that a soul possesses a living being would be curious as to where a soul inhabiting a construct would come from.
MarkB
09-02-04, 01:12 PM i'd of thought they got there souls from the same place everyone else gets theirs from. :confused:
And where is that?

Maybe the Kalashtar know, and are aware the Warforged souls aren't coming from there.

Or maybe the Kalashtar know how living beings' souls come into being, and don't believe it can be duplicated through magic technology.

There are magical means to entrap and transfer souls - so maybe Cannith's Creation Forges weren't minting fresh new souls, but stealing them from elsewhere. Nobody outside Cannith knows for sure, and since Cannith only re-created an ancient technology, maybe they don't either.
Cunning Gnome
09-02-04, 01:22 PM If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused:
MarkB
09-02-04, 01:35 PM If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused:
Dolurrh. And souls only tend to stay there for (IIRC) about 50 years or so, during which time their memories are gradually stripped away. Where they go afterwards, nobody knows - they might be reincarnated, or perhaps they move on to a true afterlife from which there is no return. Nobody actually knows.
Darrek
09-02-04, 01:36 PM If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused:

Nope. Dolurrah has got plenty of elbow room. As a soul hangs around it gets more and more forgetful of it's old life. Eventually, with it's memories cleaned, it just sorta fades away. On to the final reward? Meeting its god? Gone forever? Reincarnated into a warforged body? No one knows...
Cunning Gnome
09-02-04, 01:41 PM I wonder what the keeper gets out of stealing souls and impissoning then under the deamon wastes.
Alac Luin
09-02-04, 01:41 PM If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed ....

It has been suggested (not on this thread, but other places) that the souls may eventually slip away into nothingness.

....especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused:

No one ever said everyone gets a new one.
Maybe they come from Sybers, maybe reincarnated from Dolurrh, ideas are taken from Dal Quor are metaphysically transmogafied into "Souls"

Besides the concept of soul we use to game with, objectified into rule terms, we have no idea what a soul is.
It has been confusing real life scholars since the beginning of time. Even now, many people even argue the existence of souls.
WotC_Doog
09-02-04, 01:45 PM Do Warforged have souls? I mean, seriously, do they?
Here's my semi-cop-out answer: It really, really depends on what kind of answer you want. :)

Do you want (1) the answer that a cleric on the streets of Sharn would give you -- his heartfelt in-character opinion, flavored by personal belief but ultimately limited by the ineffability of metaphysical mysteries?

Or do you want (2) a quote from a page in the ECSB -- black and white print that is only meant to point Eberron DMs in one possible direction in the first place?

Or are you looking to hear (3) the philosophical musings of your fellow message boards posters -- full of impassioned displays of RPG logic and thoughtful devil's advocacy?

Luckily, all three have already been pretty well provided to you -- but if you're struggling to determine whether your question has been answered, check and see which answer you were looking for. :D
m15a
09-02-04, 02:09 PM okay. ashamed for not reading the whole book. but i'm avoiding it anyway, since i want to be a little surprised with things (as a player) and my dm doesn't want me to read everything, anyway. i'm interested in this, though. so, could someone direct me to a page number/heading where i can find this? thanks.
WizO_Sith
09-02-04, 02:11 PM And where is that?

Welll... it all depends on whether or not you decide to use the "Well of Unborn Souls" from the D&D Adventure Path module "Bastion of Broken Souls" -Ashadalon = COOLEST D&D VILLAIN EVER- (I don't *Think* those were specific to any setting).
Baloo
09-02-04, 02:13 PM And where is that?

Maybe the Kalashtar know, and are aware the Warforged souls aren't coming from there.

Or maybe the Kalashtar know how living beings' souls come into being, and don't believe it can be duplicated through magic technology.

There are magical means to entrap and transfer souls - so maybe Cannith's Creation Forges weren't minting fresh new souls, but stealing them from elsewhere. Nobody outside Cannith knows for sure, and since Cannith only re-created an ancient technology, maybe they don't either.
A thing that came to mind as I was reading this... the Creation forges are based on stuff found on Xen'Drik. Xen'Drik was the site of a Quori invasion. The Forges get souls from somewhere. The Xen'drik link together with the unknown nature of where the souls come from probably have something to do with why the Kalashtar are a bit hesitant about the 'forged.
Alac Luin
09-02-04, 02:20 PM ... so, could someone direct me to a page number/heading where i can find this? thanks.

What exactly are you looking for?
Much of the info on warforged souls do not apear in the ECS.
For a large part, we are expanding on hints provided by Kieth and the other designers.
These hints were givin in Kieth's thread and various interviews.
Alac Luin
09-02-04, 02:31 PM ....The Xen'drik link together with the unknown nature of where the souls come from probably have something to do with why the Kalashtar are a bit hesitant about the 'forged.

And possibly why Breland wanted the "No More Warforged" clause in the Treaty of Thronehold.
Sharn, a city of Breland does have the largest population of Kalashtar on Khorvaire.
Who knows, I'm just speculateing here. :)
ZiD
09-02-04, 02:45 PM Personally I think a soul is a figment (as well as any sort of faith) of our imagination, the need to make our essance be explained in one simple word and object; a container called a soul. But thats me. I believe in science, but this threads not a question of what I believe or what anyone believes, its a simple fact of answering a question haha.

Erherm... anyways, so Warforged so have souls that they get from the forges that create them, am I getting the jist of that? I read the first 100 pages of the manual, so I dunno if they explained it later, but I wanted to get an affirmative before that question eats away at my reason and ability to comprehend the rest of the manual (ya know its like when somethings bothering you you cant focus... sort of the same haha).

So yeah... maybe I need to go back and brush up a little more, its kind of hard to confirm what you think you read and what you have read when peopel arent around to discuss these things in your area :P But thanks for your input guys, I think I have a grasp on the concept.
farwalker
09-02-04, 02:45 PM In my Eberron Campaign it is a great mystery where 'Forged souls come from. One of the things my PCs (one of whom is actually a warforged) will eventually find out is that the warforged are essentially mindwiped souls of the recently dead, discreetly collected by house Cainith during the Last War and placed into their golem bodies through the magicks of the creation forged. The Warforged in my campaign all occasionally have unexplained flashbacks and subtle hints as to their origin. This also explains why Warforged seem to have gender although they do not understand why...

This is also involves the Lord of Blades as he is attempting to increase the numbers of his forces and needs 'raw materials' so to speak.
ZiD
09-02-04, 02:51 PM In my Eberron Campaign it is a great mystery where 'Forged souls come from. One of the things my PCs (one of whom is actually a warforged) will eventually find out is that the warforged are essentially mindwiped souls of the recently dead, discreetly collected by house Cainith during the Last War and placed into their golem bodies through the magicks of the creation forged. The Warforged in my campaign all occasionally have unexplained flashbacks and subtle hints as to their origin. This also explains why Warforged seem to have gender although they do not understand why...

This is also involves the Lord of Blades as he is attempting to increase the numbers of his forces and needs 'raw materials' so to speak.

Wow, thats a pretty good idea and makes for mystery. Keeping the PC's in tension is one of the best things you can do, keeps em in their seat.
Alac Luin
09-02-04, 02:54 PM ... anyways, so Warforged so have souls that they get from the forges that create them, am I getting the jist of that? ....

Thats the jist of it.
So, they are still subject to spells like Trap the Soul.
Maybe this spell isn't the best example, anyways...
ZiD
09-02-04, 02:57 PM hmm... I see now. Its interesting though thinking of where they could possibly get souls from, or for that matter where any of the PC's do. Sure, some of the PC's are god chosen so their souls were created by gods, but what about everyone else... Ah well, you guys all read the book and I just got it a week ago so I'm still inexperienced :P
Edymnion
09-02-04, 03:29 PM Warforged are subject to Trap the Soul spells.
They can be Raised, and Ressurected, and even Reincarnated.
For every rules/mechanical standpoint, they are exactly the same as any other playable race in the game.

As for the origins of their soul, thats best left up to the individual DM.
As for proving that they have a soul, well, prove to me that YOU have a soul, or that I do. Don't quote religious doctrine, show me a test that can determine one way or another whether or not I have a soul. If you can do that, then we can discuss whether or not the Warforged have one.

Of course, you'd have to nail down exactly what you want to define a soul as.
Is it the personality of the person? Their thoughts and knowledge? A formless blank slate that gets written upon every lifetime? Philosophers have been debating on what exactly a soul is for thousands of years, forget how to find out if you have one when you don't even know exactly what one is in the first place :)
m15a
09-02-04, 03:41 PM nevermind about my request. i think i was misunderstanding the meaning of souls . . . i am right that no one is certain about the existance of gods, though, right? does that mean only the people in eberron don't know, or that the matter of their existence is not set as fact or fiction to players (and the characters, as well, obviously). (i think the second one?)

where is the part on what happens when a character dies? is that in the planar section? sorry if the answer is, like, "duh. it's in the 'What Happens When a Character Dies' section". i don't have my book on hand (at work).
MarkB
09-02-04, 04:09 PM nevermind about my request. i think i was misunderstanding the meaning of souls . . . i am right that no one is certain about the existance of gods, though, right? does that mean only the people in eberron don't know, or that the matter of their existence is not set as fact or fiction to players (and the characters, as well, obviously). (i think the second one?)
That is largely up to the DM. Basically, they have the option to leave the gods undefined, or decide in their own mind that they do or do not exist but leave the players guessing, or to say from the outset to their players, "okay, the gods are [not] real, but as characters you don't know this for sure." It's left open to the DM's discretion.
where is the part on what happens when a character dies? is that in the planar section? sorry if the answer is, like, "duh. it's in the 'What Happens When a Character Dies' section". i don't have my book on hand (at work).
It's in the entry for the plane of Dolurrh on page 95.

Also, I'd strongly recommend doing a search in the Ask Keith Baker FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=287579) for 'religion'. Keith's addressed several questions on the subject, and his answers give a far better feeling of the nature of religion in Eberron than I could, and do cover some questions about the afterlife.
Masterful_Norg
09-02-04, 04:28 PM In my DnD games all souls undergo the path of reincarnation. In the case of Eberron the creation forges just serve as a channel for willing souls to be incarnated in a different way.
Edymnion
09-02-04, 05:03 PM Perhaps you may have already realized, but science is in fact a religeon. Okay, that one crossed the line.
Discussing real life religion is a great way to get a thread locked. So lets try and keep the discussion here on topic for in-game mechanics.
Masterful_Norg
09-02-04, 10:20 PM Will do. :)
DaveReaves
09-02-04, 10:33 PM Seems to me that if the creation forges are powerful enough to create a new soul, there is going to be some sort of celistial body who normally takes care of that kind of thing who is going to be a little upset. It also seems that if the forge uses recently departed souls, the Undying Court may have something to say about that, especialy when Elf souls start ending up in Warforged bodies.
GaryB
09-03-04, 02:04 PM Like 'm15a' said do we have a soul?

I just remembered the Star Trek:TNG episode where Data was being judged if he can refuse to leave the ship to be dismantled.
The judge talked about him and having a soul.
Saurenda
09-03-04, 03:01 PM In my Eberron Campaign it is a great mystery where 'Forged souls come from. One of the things my PCs (one of whom is actually a warforged) will eventually find out is that the warforged are essentially mindwiped souls of the recently dead, discreetly collected by house Cainith during the Last War and placed into their golem bodies through the magicks of the creation forged. The Warforged in my campaign all occasionally have unexplained flashbacks and subtle hints as to their origin. This also explains why Warforged seem to have gender although they do not understand why...

This is also involves the Lord of Blades as he is attempting to increase the numbers of his forces and needs 'raw materials' so to speak.

If this is, who's soul was the Lord of Blades originally, and why would a race of formerly organic beings turns living construct persue terms of a pure construct?

Do you mean to say some of the warforged in your campaign ignore thier dreams or that they turned away from flesh because of what happened to thier souls?

It seems like a neat idea that House Cannith would collect all the souls of the recent dead, but does this mean some of your warforged were also gnomes, elves, and half orcs?

It raises a lot of questions for me, and it sounds interesting. Makes me wanna put the bastion of broken souls adventure in the mounrlands.
Cunning Gnome
09-04-04, 07:54 AM I'd of thought soul's wouldn't be race specific. A new born elf doesn't have memories of a previous life as a dwarf. ;)
Saurenda
09-04-04, 10:43 AM I'd of thought soul's wouldn't be race specific. A new born elf doesn't have memories of a previous life as a dwarf. ;)

Good point. If this is the case, then how does one prove such a claim, dismantle a creation forge, and afterwards point at the component, "Yup, thats the [insert name of component] that sucked souls right from the plane of the dead."

Magic jar spell was mentioned, so at one time the Giants, Qouri, and now thanks to the last chat with Kieth, possible other race not yet mentioned could have made the first warforged as a means of preserving thier own bodies.

It justs seems so convient that in the mournlands after the disaster all the effects of the catastrophe do not harm constructs. It's as though people of some ancient civilization were planning such destruction or anticipating it that thier living bodies would no longer function. Perhaps the warforge were never meant for war, but simply the next step in some species way of survivial, or the means of that invasion to remain immune to thier own great weaponry.

Too many options!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZiD 09-02-04, 11:16 AM	Do Warforged have souls? I mean, seriously, do they? Being a living construct does not necessarily make them 'living', so to speak. They dont really have blood, organs, or any of that in essance, but they have free will and freedom to worship, make choices, and all that stuff. Yet its something I wonder... what about souls? Does a warforged cleric meet his god after he dies, or does he just... dissapate? Its not really explained in the handbook, but if you wanted to do like a 'soul journey' sort of quest, out of body experiences, etc. it would be useful to know. Any hints on this or am I just a freak haha ~JIM
m15a 09-02-04, 12:04 PM	do we have souls!?!? :) seriously though, i'd rather leave it open as just one of those interesting (and very very important and relevant) philosophical questions. i could imagine the intellectualites discussing that exact question. remember that in eberron, the existance of gods is not certain. do cleric meet their gods? if they do, maybe it's just a halucination?
qwykee 09-02-04, 12:19 PM	Seriously, try reading the book. Yes Warforged have souls, that is how they were "created" in the first place. Are they living? Now that is an interesting question. They don't have to eat, drink, deficate, or sleep. They can't procreate. So are they alive? I'd say no, they're really just walking talking Magic Jars.
Alac Luin 09-02-04, 12:20 PM	Yes they do have souls. The Kalashtar are worried about this, as they have no idea where they come from. When worforged die, they go to Dolurrh, just like everyboby else in Ebberon.
Forge Master Gond 09-02-04, 12:25 PM	i would say yes they have souls are they living probably. here is something interesting when the great druid orion or whatever was awakend did it gain a soul. he is just a tree but if you killed him would he go to the plane of the dead.
Cunning Gnome 09-02-04, 01:05 PM	i'd of thought they got there souls from the same place everyone else gets theirs from. :confused:
Alac Luin 09-02-04, 01:11 PM	i'd of thought they got there souls from the same place everyone else gets theirs from. :confused: And that would be? j/k What I stated earlier was from a statement Kieth made. (my thoughts here)You would expect a race of a blending of 2 souls, fighting agienst a race that a soul possesses a living being would be curious as to where a soul inhabiting a construct would come from.
MarkB 09-02-04, 01:12 PM	i'd of thought they got there souls from the same place everyone else gets theirs from. :confused: And where is that? Maybe the Kalashtar know, and are aware the Warforged souls aren't coming from there. Or maybe the Kalashtar know how living beings' souls come into being, and don't believe it can be duplicated through magic technology. There are magical means to entrap and transfer souls - so maybe Cannith's Creation Forges weren't minting fresh new souls, but stealing them from elsewhere. Nobody outside Cannith knows for sure, and since Cannith only re-created an ancient technology, maybe they don't either.
Cunning Gnome 09-02-04, 01:22 PM	If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused:
MarkB 09-02-04, 01:35 PM	If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused: Dolurrh. And souls only tend to stay there for (IIRC) about 50 years or so, during which time their memories are gradually stripped away. Where they go afterwards, nobody knows - they might be reincarnated, or perhaps they move on to a true afterlife from which there is no return. Nobody actually knows.
Darrek 09-02-04, 01:36 PM	If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused: Nope. Dolurrah has got plenty of elbow room. As a soul hangs around it gets more and more forgetful of it's old life. Eventually, with it's memories cleaned, it just sorta fades away. On to the final reward? Meeting its god? Gone forever? Reincarnated into a warforged body? No one knows...
Cunning Gnome 09-02-04, 01:41 PM	I wonder what the keeper gets out of stealing souls and impissoning then under the deamon wastes.
Alac Luin 09-02-04, 01:41 PM	If dead races souls go to do....th(forgget name) then it should be getting pretty packed .... It has been suggested (not on this thread, but other places) that the souls may eventually slip away into nothingness. ....especialy if everyone gets a new soul. Dunno where they get em from :confused: No one ever said everyone gets a new one. Maybe they come from Sybers, maybe reincarnated from Dolurrh, ideas are taken from Dal Quor are metaphysically transmogafied into "Souls" Besides the concept of soul we use to game with, objectified into rule terms, we have no idea what a soul is. It has been confusing real life scholars since the beginning of time. Even now, many people even argue the existence of souls.
WotC_Doog 09-02-04, 01:45 PM	Do Warforged have souls? I mean, seriously, do they? Here's my semi-cop-out answer: It really, really depends on what kind of answer you want. :) Do you want (1) the answer that a cleric on the streets of Sharn would give you -- his heartfelt in-character opinion, flavored by personal belief but ultimately limited by the ineffability of metaphysical mysteries? Or do you want (2) a quote from a page in the ECSB -- black and white print that is only meant to point Eberron DMs in one possible direction in the first place? Or are you looking to hear (3) the philosophical musings of your fellow message boards posters -- full of impassioned displays of RPG logic and thoughtful devil's advocacy? Luckily, all three have already been pretty well provided to you -- but if you're struggling to determine whether your question has been answered, check and see which answer you were looking for. :D
m15a 09-02-04, 02:09 PM	okay. ashamed for not reading the whole book. but i'm avoiding it anyway, since i want to be a little surprised with things (as a player) and my dm doesn't want me to read everything, anyway. i'm interested in this, though. so, could someone direct me to a page number/heading where i can find this? thanks.
WizO_Sith 09-02-04, 02:11 PM	And where is that? Welll... it all depends on whether or not you decide to use the "Well of Unborn Souls" from the D&D Adventure Path module "Bastion of Broken Souls" -Ashadalon = COOLEST D&D VILLAIN EVER- (I don't Think those were specific to any setting).
Baloo 09-02-04, 02:13 PM	And where is that? Maybe the Kalashtar know, and are aware the Warforged souls aren't coming from there. Or maybe the Kalashtar know how living beings' souls come into being, and don't believe it can be duplicated through magic technology. There are magical means to entrap and transfer souls - so maybe Cannith's Creation Forges weren't minting fresh new souls, but stealing them from elsewhere. Nobody outside Cannith knows for sure, and since Cannith only re-created an ancient technology, maybe they don't either. A thing that came to mind as I was reading this... the Creation forges are based on stuff found on Xen'Drik. Xen'Drik was the site of a Quori invasion. The Forges get souls from somewhere. The Xen'drik link together with the unknown nature of where the souls come from probably have something to do with why the Kalashtar are a bit hesitant about the 'forged.
Alac Luin 09-02-04, 02:20 PM	... so, could someone direct me to a page number/heading where i can find this? thanks. What exactly are you looking for? Much of the info on warforged souls do not apear in the ECS. For a large part, we are expanding on hints provided by Kieth and the other designers. These hints were givin in Kieth's thread and various interviews.
Alac Luin 09-02-04, 02:31 PM	....The Xen'drik link together with the unknown nature of where the souls come from probably have something to do with why the Kalashtar are a bit hesitant about the 'forged. And possibly why Breland wanted the "No More Warforged" clause in the Treaty of Thronehold. Sharn, a city of Breland does have the largest population of Kalashtar on Khorvaire. Who knows, I'm just speculateing here. :)
ZiD 09-02-04, 02:45 PM	Personally I think a soul is a figment (as well as any sort of faith) of our imagination, the need to make our essance be explained in one simple word and object; a container called a soul. But thats me. I believe in science, but this threads not a question of what I believe or what anyone believes, its a simple fact of answering a question haha. Erherm... anyways, so Warforged so have souls that they get from the forges that create them, am I getting the jist of that? I read the first 100 pages of the manual, so I dunno if they explained it later, but I wanted to get an affirmative before that question eats away at my reason and ability to comprehend the rest of the manual (ya know its like when somethings bothering you you cant focus... sort of the same haha). So yeah... maybe I need to go back and brush up a little more, its kind of hard to confirm what you think you read and what you have read when peopel arent around to discuss these things in your area :P But thanks for your input guys, I think I have a grasp on the concept.
farwalker 09-02-04, 02:45 PM	In my Eberron Campaign it is a great mystery where 'Forged souls come from. One of the things my PCs (one of whom is actually a warforged) will eventually find out is that the warforged are essentially mindwiped souls of the recently dead, discreetly collected by house Cainith during the Last War and placed into their golem bodies through the magicks of the creation forged. The Warforged in my campaign all occasionally have unexplained flashbacks and subtle hints as to their origin. This also explains why Warforged seem to have gender although they do not understand why... This is also involves the Lord of Blades as he is attempting to increase the numbers of his forces and needs 'raw materials' so to speak.
ZiD 09-02-04, 02:51 PM	In my Eberron Campaign it is a great mystery where 'Forged souls come from. One of the things my PCs (one of whom is actually a warforged) will eventually find out is that the warforged are essentially mindwiped souls of the recently dead, discreetly collected by house Cainith during the Last War and placed into their golem bodies through the magicks of the creation forged. The Warforged in my campaign all occasionally have unexplained flashbacks and subtle hints as to their origin. This also explains why Warforged seem to have gender although they do not understand why... This is also involves the Lord of Blades as he is attempting to increase the numbers of his forces and needs 'raw materials' so to speak. Wow, thats a pretty good idea and makes for mystery. Keeping the PC's in tension is one of the best things you can do, keeps em in their seat.
Alac Luin 09-02-04, 02:54 PM	... anyways, so Warforged so have souls that they get from the forges that create them, am I getting the jist of that? .... Thats the jist of it. So, they are still subject to spells like Trap the Soul. Maybe this spell isn't the best example, anyways...
ZiD 09-02-04, 02:57 PM	hmm... I see now. Its interesting though thinking of where they could possibly get souls from, or for that matter where any of the PC's do. Sure, some of the PC's are god chosen so their souls were created by gods, but what about everyone else... Ah well, you guys all read the book and I just got it a week ago so I'm still inexperienced :P
Edymnion 09-02-04, 03:29 PM	Warforged are subject to Trap the Soul spells. They can be Raised, and Ressurected, and even Reincarnated. For every rules/mechanical standpoint, they are exactly the same as any other playable race in the game. As for the origins of their soul, thats best left up to the individual DM. As for proving that they have a soul, well, prove to me that YOU have a soul, or that I do. Don't quote religious doctrine, show me a test that can determine one way or another whether or not I have a soul. If you can do that, then we can discuss whether or not the Warforged have one. Of course, you'd have to nail down exactly what you want to define a soul as. Is it the personality of the person? Their thoughts and knowledge? A formless blank slate that gets written upon every lifetime? Philosophers have been debating on what exactly a soul is for thousands of years, forget how to find out if you have one when you don't even know exactly what one is in the first place :)
m15a 09-02-04, 03:41 PM	nevermind about my request. i think i was misunderstanding the meaning of souls . . . i am right that no one is certain about the existance of gods, though, right? does that mean only the people in eberron don't know, or that the matter of their existence is not set as fact or fiction to players (and the characters, as well, obviously). (i think the second one?) where is the part on what happens when a character dies? is that in the planar section? sorry if the answer is, like, "duh. it's in the 'What Happens When a Character Dies' section". i don't have my book on hand (at work).
MarkB 09-02-04, 04:09 PM	nevermind about my request. i think i was misunderstanding the meaning of souls . . . i am right that no one is certain about the existance of gods, though, right? does that mean only the people in eberron don't know, or that the matter of their existence is not set as fact or fiction to players (and the characters, as well, obviously). (i think the second one?) That is largely up to the DM. Basically, they have the option to leave the gods undefined, or decide in their own mind that they do or do not exist but leave the players guessing, or to say from the outset to their players, "okay, the gods are [not] real, but as characters you don't know this for sure." It's left open to the DM's discretion. where is the part on what happens when a character dies? is that in the planar section? sorry if the answer is, like, "duh. it's in the 'What Happens When a Character Dies' section". i don't have my book on hand (at work). It's in the entry for the plane of Dolurrh on page 95. Also, I'd strongly recommend doing a search in the Ask Keith Baker FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=287579) for 'religion'. Keith's addressed several questions on the subject, and his answers give a far better feeling of the nature of religion in Eberron than I could, and do cover some questions about the afterlife.
Masterful_Norg 09-02-04, 04:28 PM	In my DnD games all souls undergo the path of reincarnation. In the case of Eberron the creation forges just serve as a channel for willing souls to be incarnated in a different way.
Edymnion 09-02-04, 05:03 PM	Perhaps you may have already realized, but science is in fact a religeon. Okay, that one crossed the line. Discussing real life religion is a great way to get a thread locked. So lets try and keep the discussion here on topic for in-game mechanics.
Masterful_Norg 09-02-04, 10:20 PM	Will do. :)
DaveReaves 09-02-04, 10:33 PM	Seems to me that if the creation forges are powerful enough to create a new soul, there is going to be some sort of celistial body who normally takes care of that kind of thing who is going to be a little upset. It also seems that if the forge uses recently departed souls, the Undying Court may have something to say about that, especialy when Elf souls start ending up in Warforged bodies.
GaryB 09-03-04, 02:04 PM	Like 'm15a' said do we have a soul? I just remembered the Star Trek:TNG episode where Data was being judged if he can refuse to leave the ship to be dismantled. The judge talked about him and having a soul.
Saurenda 09-03-04, 03:01 PM	In my Eberron Campaign it is a great mystery where 'Forged souls come from. One of the things my PCs (one of whom is actually a warforged) will eventually find out is that the warforged are essentially mindwiped souls of the recently dead, discreetly collected by house Cainith during the Last War and placed into their golem bodies through the magicks of the creation forged. The Warforged in my campaign all occasionally have unexplained flashbacks and subtle hints as to their origin. This also explains why Warforged seem to have gender although they do not understand why... This is also involves the Lord of Blades as he is attempting to increase the numbers of his forces and needs 'raw materials' so to speak. If this is, who's soul was the Lord of Blades originally, and why would a race of formerly organic beings turns living construct persue terms of a pure construct? Do you mean to say some of the warforged in your campaign ignore thier dreams or that they turned away from flesh because of what happened to thier souls? It seems like a neat idea that House Cannith would collect all the souls of the recent dead, but does this mean some of your warforged were also gnomes, elves, and half orcs? It raises a lot of questions for me, and it sounds interesting. Makes me wanna put the bastion of broken souls adventure in the mounrlands.
Cunning Gnome 09-04-04, 07:54 AM	I'd of thought soul's wouldn't be race specific. A new born elf doesn't have memories of a previous life as a dwarf. ;)
Saurenda 09-04-04, 10:43 AM	I'd of thought soul's wouldn't be race specific. A new born elf doesn't have memories of a previous life as a dwarf. ;) Good point. If this is the case, then how does one prove such a claim, dismantle a creation forge, and afterwards point at the component, "Yup, thats the [insert name of component] that sucked souls right from the plane of the dead." Magic jar spell was mentioned, so at one time the Giants, Qouri, and now thanks to the last chat with Kieth, possible other race not yet mentioned could have made the first warforged as a means of preserving thier own bodies. It justs seems so convient that in the mournlands after the disaster all the effects of the catastrophe do not harm constructs. It's as though people of some ancient civilization were planning such destruction or anticipating it that thier living bodies would no longer function. Perhaps the warforge were never meant for war, but simply the next step in some species way of survivial, or the means of that invasion to remain immune to thier own great weaponry. Too many options!