Documents and forgery in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Documents and forgery in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Perun
06-16-07, 03:43 AM I've got a rogue character in my game, who's got maximised ranks in Forgery (he's 3rd level now and has a +9 Forgery modifier), and who's interested in forging documents (identification papers, travelling papers, etc.).

The said player wants to use an existing document, and just make some minor changes (name, perhaps a detail or two in the description, if it doesn't suit him), but keeping the Sivis mark on the document (the character can't cast arcane mark, and has no ranks in UMD).

Would that be doable?

Personally, I feel it bypasses a significant penalty in forging documents (-10 check penalty and the required ability to cast arcane mark). Then again, that's how many forged documents were made in real world (right?), just by changing a few details on an original document. Also, identification papers aren't all that expensive and aren't overly important to the game. But I also wouldn't want to make a precedent in the game, where all my players would go changing identities all the time.

Forgery checks are pretty easy to make, especially when forging official documents (the character get's a +8 bonus to the check), and the check is opposed by another Forgery check, which only a few classes have as a class skill (of core classes, only rogue and expert get Forgery as class skill). It would be fairly easy to fool most people on Khorvaire.

How would you handle the situation, and has it ever came up in your game?

Thanks in advance.

Regards.
Shady314
06-16-07, 03:55 AM Yes most forgery is taking an appropriate document and changing a name or date etc. The difficulty is you'll need the appropriate document of course.

Yes forgery will fool most people but that's not overpowering. Nor is always changing your identity. Changelings do it frequently. It's no different than the real world. Who has the skills to notice a fake check for example if it's done decently? Just the people at the bank. Same applies in Khorvaire. An important enough document is going to pass through Sivis and or Kundarak officials who specialize in this and will verify this sort of thing. That's a lot of forgery checks and once they start cross referencing things or talking to you the forgery won't hold up indefinitely.

Forgery can be a powerful tool just like disguise or bluff but it shouldn't end up being a big deal.
It will get you past the front door for awhile but it's not going to get them land, wealth and power etc. with a few forgery checks.

What exactly is the PC trying to accomplish?
Perun
06-16-07, 05:05 AM Yes most forgery is taking an appropriate document and changing a name or date etc. The difficulty is you'll need the appropriate document of course.

Not a problem. They got more than a few from their opponents.

Yes forgery will fool most people but that's not overpowering. Nor is always changing your identity. Changelings do it frequently. It's no different than the real world. Who has the skills to notice a fake check for example if it's done decently? Just the people at the bank. Same applies in Khorvaire. An important enough document is going to pass through Sivis and or Kundarak officials who specialize in this and will verify this sort of thing. That's a lot of forgery checks and once they start cross referencing things or talking to you the forgery won't hold up indefinitely.

Hmmm... makes sense, I suppose.

What exactly is the PC trying to accomplish?

So far, nothing much. Apparently, he just wants to have a couple of alter egos, for when he (or the party) gets in trouble.

Of course, the players are always looking fo rhte way to make the DM's life miserable ;)
Shady314
06-16-07, 08:13 AM Not a problem. They got more than a few from their opponents.

Ok but what were these documents? ID papers? If so forging IDs is no big deal. It's pretty much mandatory for a rogue. Especially if it's a Changeling with max disguise.

But changing an ID to be useful will require a lot more than a word change or two. (If not a changeling but I doubt the whole group is changelings?) It carries a detailed description. The 5gp one also has a picture.
We're all their opponents the same race as them? Sometimes IDs won't even be too great. An Aundairian ID is far superior in Aundair than a Brelish one and vice versa. And of course you'll probably need to make some knowledge checks in conversation to pass as the proper nationality.

In the future consider most people expecting illegal combat won't have their ID papers on them. Or that blood has seeped onto it and ruined the paper. Of course I'm assuming a lot about what documents they have and who they fought.

If they're blank that's a jackpot. You'd probably make more selling the blank pre-notarized pages to groups like the Boromars or Tyrants than forging anything out of them.

So far, nothing much. Apparently, he just wants to have a couple of alter egos, for when he (or the party) gets in trouble.

Of course, the players are always looking fo rhte way to make the DM's life miserable ;)

Yes. Ever vigilant. Anyways if he or the party gets in real trouble they'll get thrown in a holding cell till everything is worked out no matter what their ID papers say. So don't worry it won't make them untouchable.

I wouldn't worry. I've yet to see or hear of any serious DM abuse through the use of fake IDs. :)
Arithian
06-16-07, 10:45 AM This is just coming off the top of my head from bits and pieces that I have read across Core Books; namely (The DMG) and Eberron Specific Books.

I would say that forgery is going to be as big of a deal as you make it. It would seem to me that your PC is taking ranks in forgery for a reason; he could certainly be putting the points somewhere else.

With that in mind he may be giving you subtle hints that it is something that HE does want to use in the game, which may translate to it being important to HIM as a PC. You potentially run the risk of discouraging your player if you just gloss over the matter, let him have some initial success at it (on SIMPLE Docs), i.e. NO Letters of Credit, or Royal Decrees and such, just simple docs; Traveling Papers for instance,

But I also wouldn't want to make a precedent in the game, where all my players would go changing identities all the time.

and if he wants to continue doing it (forging documents or forging more difficult documents) make it progressively harder for him. I.E. Maybe after his first few forgery's some terrorist activity goes down completely apart from the PC's. But the international response is to beef up security check points, which translates in game to needing a higher forgery skill to pull off the same stuff as before, so forth and so on.

Also, identification papers aren't all that expensive and aren't overly important to the game.

I think official canon stance from the fluff that I've read is that it is a big deal in the world in general apart from the PC's; here’s an excerpt from the PGtE:

Documents, Rules and Regulations: PGtE pg:38

"Written documents play a significant role in the Five Nations. Because the Notaries Guild of House Sivis makes it possible to create certificates whose authenticity is virtually unimpeachable, the people of Khorvaire have come to rely upon contracts, licenses, and other official documents to help commerce and government run as quickly and smoothly as possible."

With that in mind I would take the time to do some research around the matter, check out a copy of the PGtE and read the section excerpted above, read through as many canon books as you can on Documents and Forging; (I think you may find some useful material in the ECS, and The Explorers Handbook as well.) and see what they have to say.

I think you might find that this could potentially open up all kinds of new adventure paths for this PC. He could become the guy to go to if you need forged docs, he could become an "enemy of the state" so forth and so on. I must say though that if he really wants to pull off some slamming forged docs he’s going to probably need to pick up arcane mark somewhere or steal some House Sivis tool that will allow him to pull it off...but that’s just my two cents. Hope it helps.
Perun
06-17-07, 05:53 AM Right now, I don't think there should be a way around the House Sivis mark on any of the official documents. If it were that easy to forge a set of documents by simply changing a a few words and/or characters on an existing document, people, and more importantly, countries and organisations wouldn't be putting that much trust in them. I still have to read (again) through the relevant entries in the PGtE and the EHB (although I remember there being discrepancies between the books regarding some of the documents), but here's what I've been thinking...

So far, my perceptions of the identification papers were base on the picture, form the ECS:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82111.jpg
The Sivis mark is plainly visible in the lower part of the document.

But, just like most (if not all) other images in various D&D accessories, this one represents how the artist imagined the document, not necessarily how it is actually supposed to look.

Following that train of thought, what if the mark was a sort of a background image over the entire (or most of the) document? That way, when using an existing document, a forger would have to delete or scrape away the existing writing, which would damage the Sivis mark. The forger would thus need access to the arcane mark spell to fix the damage.

That would preserve the uniqueness of the official, Sivis-notarised papers.

It would still be fairly easy to fool an average citizen or guard. My player's character, for example, has +9 Forgery modifier at third level (Int 16, 6 ranks). With a -10 penalty for the arcane mark, and the +8 bonus for forging a general document (that is, one with non-specific handwriting), that's a total of +7 check modifier. An average guard has a +0 Forgery modifier, and gains a +2 bonus because of his familiarity with the official documents.

If it's a dedicated forger NPC, like an Int 13 expert 2/magewright 1, who also took Skill Focus (Forgery) and Deceitful feats, and uses a Forgery Kit (Complete Adventurer, p. 122) has a base Forgery check modifier of +14 (6 ranks, +1 Int, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Deceitful, +2 forgery kit), +22 if forging "a document on which the handwriting is not specific to a person (military orders, a government decree, a business ledger, or the like)", or +12 when forging such Sivis-notarised "general" documents. Not bad, really.

Comments? :)

Regards.
Need_A_Life
06-17-07, 10:02 AM I've got a rogue character in my game, who's got maximised ranks in Forgery (he's 3rd level now and has a +9 Forgery modifier), and who's interested in forging documents (identification papers, travelling papers, etc.).Congratulations!
You've found a player who is ready to take on the role of a scoundrel, which is all to easy to fit in with the flavour of Eberron.

The said player wants to use an existing document, and just make some minor changes (name, perhaps a detail or two in the description, if it doesn't suit him), but keeping the Sivis mark on the document (the character can't cast arcane mark, and has no ranks in UMD).By RAW, he can't. I'd probably just stick him with the -10 penalty though.

Personally, I feel it bypasses a significant penalty in forging documents (-10 check penalty and the required ability to cast arcane mark). Then again, that's how many forged documents were made in real world (right?), just by changing a few details on an original document. Also, identification papers aren't all that expensive and aren't overly important to the game. But I also wouldn't want to make a precedent in the game, where all my players would go changing identities all the time.You don't have a changeling in your group, I see.
My changeling has a handful of identities, most of whom he has identification papers on (not forged, but official papers!)

Forgery checks are pretty easy to make, especially when forging official documents (the character get's a +8 bonus to the check), and the check is opposed by another Forgery check, which only a few classes have as a class skill (of core classes, only rogue and expert get Forgery as class skill). It would be fairly easy to fool most people on Khorvaire.Just like in real life. You're going to take the "warrant" the "police officer" shoves in your hand at face value most of the time. The fact is that it could be a forgery, and you'd never know it!

How would you handle the situation, and has it ever came up in your game?Make sure the player had a use for the skill... Actually, they'd feel compelled to keep putting ranks in the skill as it makes adventures easier and allows them to bypass certain obstacles.

Have fun with your game!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perun 06-16-07, 03:43 AM	I've got a rogue character in my game, who's got maximised ranks in Forgery (he's 3rd level now and has a +9 Forgery modifier), and who's interested in forging documents (identification papers, travelling papers, etc.). The said player wants to use an existing document, and just make some minor changes (name, perhaps a detail or two in the description, if it doesn't suit him), but keeping the Sivis mark on the document (the character can't cast arcane mark, and has no ranks in UMD). Would that be doable? Personally, I feel it bypasses a significant penalty in forging documents (-10 check penalty and the required ability to cast arcane mark). Then again, that's how many forged documents were made in real world (right?), just by changing a few details on an original document. Also, identification papers aren't all that expensive and aren't overly important to the game. But I also wouldn't want to make a precedent in the game, where all my players would go changing identities all the time. Forgery checks are pretty easy to make, especially when forging official documents (the character get's a +8 bonus to the check), and the check is opposed by another Forgery check, which only a few classes have as a class skill (of core classes, only rogue and expert get Forgery as class skill). It would be fairly easy to fool most people on Khorvaire. How would you handle the situation, and has it ever came up in your game? Thanks in advance. Regards.
Shady314 06-16-07, 03:55 AM	Yes most forgery is taking an appropriate document and changing a name or date etc. The difficulty is you'll need the appropriate document of course. Yes forgery will fool most people but that's not overpowering. Nor is always changing your identity. Changelings do it frequently. It's no different than the real world. Who has the skills to notice a fake check for example if it's done decently? Just the people at the bank. Same applies in Khorvaire. An important enough document is going to pass through Sivis and or Kundarak officials who specialize in this and will verify this sort of thing. That's a lot of forgery checks and once they start cross referencing things or talking to you the forgery won't hold up indefinitely. Forgery can be a powerful tool just like disguise or bluff but it shouldn't end up being a big deal. It will get you past the front door for awhile but it's not going to get them land, wealth and power etc. with a few forgery checks. What exactly is the PC trying to accomplish?
Perun 06-16-07, 05:05 AM	Yes most forgery is taking an appropriate document and changing a name or date etc. The difficulty is you'll need the appropriate document of course. Not a problem. They got more than a few from their opponents. Yes forgery will fool most people but that's not overpowering. Nor is always changing your identity. Changelings do it frequently. It's no different than the real world. Who has the skills to notice a fake check for example if it's done decently? Just the people at the bank. Same applies in Khorvaire. An important enough document is going to pass through Sivis and or Kundarak officials who specialize in this and will verify this sort of thing. That's a lot of forgery checks and once they start cross referencing things or talking to you the forgery won't hold up indefinitely. Hmmm... makes sense, I suppose. What exactly is the PC trying to accomplish? So far, nothing much. Apparently, he just wants to have a couple of alter egos, for when he (or the party) gets in trouble. Of course, the players are always looking fo rhte way to make the DM's life miserable ;)
Shady314 06-16-07, 08:13 AM	Not a problem. They got more than a few from their opponents. Ok but what were these documents? ID papers? If so forging IDs is no big deal. It's pretty much mandatory for a rogue. Especially if it's a Changeling with max disguise. But changing an ID to be useful will require a lot more than a word change or two. (If not a changeling but I doubt the whole group is changelings?) It carries a detailed description. The 5gp one also has a picture. We're all their opponents the same race as them? Sometimes IDs won't even be too great. An Aundairian ID is far superior in Aundair than a Brelish one and vice versa. And of course you'll probably need to make some knowledge checks in conversation to pass as the proper nationality. In the future consider most people expecting illegal combat won't have their ID papers on them. Or that blood has seeped onto it and ruined the paper. Of course I'm assuming a lot about what documents they have and who they fought. If they're blank that's a jackpot. You'd probably make more selling the blank pre-notarized pages to groups like the Boromars or Tyrants than forging anything out of them. So far, nothing much. Apparently, he just wants to have a couple of alter egos, for when he (or the party) gets in trouble. Of course, the players are always looking fo rhte way to make the DM's life miserable ;) Yes. Ever vigilant. Anyways if he or the party gets in real trouble they'll get thrown in a holding cell till everything is worked out no matter what their ID papers say. So don't worry it won't make them untouchable. I wouldn't worry. I've yet to see or hear of any serious DM abuse through the use of fake IDs. :)
Arithian 06-16-07, 10:45 AM	This is just coming off the top of my head from bits and pieces that I have read across Core Books; namely (The DMG) and Eberron Specific Books. I would say that forgery is going to be as big of a deal as you make it. It would seem to me that your PC is taking ranks in forgery for a reason; he could certainly be putting the points somewhere else. With that in mind he may be giving you subtle hints that it is something that HE does want to use in the game, which may translate to it being important to HIM as a PC. You potentially run the risk of discouraging your player if you just gloss over the matter, let him have some initial success at it (on SIMPLE Docs), i.e. NO Letters of Credit, or Royal Decrees and such, just simple docs; Traveling Papers for instance, But I also wouldn't want to make a precedent in the game, where all my players would go changing identities all the time. and if he wants to continue doing it (forging documents or forging more difficult documents) make it progressively harder for him. I.E. Maybe after his first few forgery's some terrorist activity goes down completely apart from the PC's. But the international response is to beef up security check points, which translates in game to needing a higher forgery skill to pull off the same stuff as before, so forth and so on. Also, identification papers aren't all that expensive and aren't overly important to the game. I think official canon stance from the fluff that I've read is that it is a big deal in the world in general apart from the PC's; here’s an excerpt from the PGtE: Documents, Rules and Regulations: PGtE pg:38 "Written documents play a significant role in the Five Nations. Because the Notaries Guild of House Sivis makes it possible to create certificates whose authenticity is virtually unimpeachable, the people of Khorvaire have come to rely upon contracts, licenses, and other official documents to help commerce and government run as quickly and smoothly as possible." With that in mind I would take the time to do some research around the matter, check out a copy of the PGtE and read the section excerpted above, read through as many canon books as you can on Documents and Forging; (I think you may find some useful material in the ECS, and The Explorers Handbook as well.) and see what they have to say. I think you might find that this could potentially open up all kinds of new adventure paths for this PC. He could become the guy to go to if you need forged docs, he could become an "enemy of the state" so forth and so on. I must say though that if he really wants to pull off some slamming forged docs he’s going to probably need to pick up arcane mark somewhere or steal some House Sivis tool that will allow him to pull it off...but that’s just my two cents. Hope it helps.
Perun 06-17-07, 05:53 AM	Right now, I don't think there should be a way around the House Sivis mark on any of the official documents. If it were that easy to forge a set of documents by simply changing a a few words and/or characters on an existing document, people, and more importantly, countries and organisations wouldn't be putting that much trust in them. I still have to read (again) through the relevant entries in the PGtE and the EHB (although I remember there being discrepancies between the books regarding some of the documents), but here's what I've been thinking... So far, my perceptions of the identification papers were base on the picture, form the ECS: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82111.jpg The Sivis mark is plainly visible in the lower part of the document. But, just like most (if not all) other images in various D&D accessories, this one represents how the artist imagined the document, not necessarily how it is actually supposed to look. Following that train of thought, what if the mark was a sort of a background image over the entire (or most of the) document? That way, when using an existing document, a forger would have to delete or scrape away the existing writing, which would damage the Sivis mark. The forger would thus need access to the arcane mark spell to fix the damage. That would preserve the uniqueness of the official, Sivis-notarised papers. It would still be fairly easy to fool an average citizen or guard. My player's character, for example, has +9 Forgery modifier at third level (Int 16, 6 ranks). With a -10 penalty for the arcane mark, and the +8 bonus for forging a general document (that is, one with non-specific handwriting), that's a total of +7 check modifier. An average guard has a +0 Forgery modifier, and gains a +2 bonus because of his familiarity with the official documents. If it's a dedicated forger NPC, like an Int 13 expert 2/magewright 1, who also took Skill Focus (Forgery) and Deceitful feats, and uses a Forgery Kit (Complete Adventurer, p. 122) has a base Forgery check modifier of +14 (6 ranks, +1 Int, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Deceitful, +2 forgery kit), +22 if forging "a document on which the handwriting is not specific to a person (military orders, a government decree, a business ledger, or the like)", or +12 when forging such Sivis-notarised "general" documents. Not bad, really. Comments? :) Regards.
Need_A_Life 06-17-07, 10:02 AM	I've got a rogue character in my game, who's got maximised ranks in Forgery (he's 3rd level now and has a +9 Forgery modifier), and who's interested in forging documents (identification papers, travelling papers, etc.).Congratulations! You've found a player who is ready to take on the role of a scoundrel, which is all to easy to fit in with the flavour of Eberron. The said player wants to use an existing document, and just make some minor changes (name, perhaps a detail or two in the description, if it doesn't suit him), but keeping the Sivis mark on the document (the character can't cast arcane mark, and has no ranks in UMD).By RAW, he can't. I'd probably just stick him with the -10 penalty though. Personally, I feel it bypasses a significant penalty in forging documents (-10 check penalty and the required ability to cast arcane mark). Then again, that's how many forged documents were made in real world (right?), just by changing a few details on an original document. Also, identification papers aren't all that expensive and aren't overly important to the game. But I also wouldn't want to make a precedent in the game, where all my players would go changing identities all the time.You don't have a changeling in your group, I see. My changeling has a handful of identities, most of whom he has identification papers on (not forged, but official papers!) Forgery checks are pretty easy to make, especially when forging official documents (the character get's a +8 bonus to the check), and the check is opposed by another Forgery check, which only a few classes have as a class skill (of core classes, only rogue and expert get Forgery as class skill). It would be fairly easy to fool most people on Khorvaire.Just like in real life. You're going to take the "warrant" the "police officer" shoves in your hand at face value most of the time. The fact is that it could be a forgery, and you'd never know it! How would you handle the situation, and has it ever came up in your game?Make sure the player had a use for the skill... Actually, they'd feel compelled to keep putting ranks in the skill as it makes adventures easier and allows them to bypass certain obstacles. Have fun with your game!