Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-09-07, 06:58 PM	I'm wondering -- do newspapers like the Korranberg Chronicle use Gutenberg-style movable type, or do they use some form of engraved plates or woodblock prints, with the creation of the unique templates accelerated enough to keep pace with the demands of a newspaper by magical crafting assistance (such as magecraft)? The former is simpler, but the latter might be more appropriate for Eberron (i.e., using medieval technology with magical assistance, rather than more modern mundane technology). Then again, if the Chinese had a rudimentary, impractical clay-based movable type system by the 11th century and the Koreans had metallic typesets by the 13th century, it's reasonable to have it in a medieval setting without claiming it opens doors to guns, steampunk, or any of the other things we want to avoid by avoiding advanced technology in Eberron.
Edymnion 07-09-07, 07:49 PM	Considering that there are lvl 1/cantrip level spells that can let you duplicate a written page, I would go the route of magical items that churn out hundreds or thousands of copies of a given page.
JulesCARV 07-09-07, 08:52 PM	Which spells are you referring to, again?
Vharuck 07-09-07, 09:16 PM	Amaneuisis (spelling?) from Spell Compendium is a 0th level spell which copies a non-magical page of writing onto a blank page.
JulesCARV 07-09-07, 09:49 PM	Thanks.
Symar 07-10-07, 02:23 PM	I'm sure I saw somewhere, can't remember where though, a magically enchanted scribing desk that can writing in up to 4 colors, and can produce a lot of pagers per day. It cannot replicate magical texts (scrolls and spellbooks). If I'm not imagining things, it seems like a very Eberron-y thing to have. At least by any scribe guilds or whatnot.
naturax 07-10-07, 02:38 PM	I'm sure I saw somewhere, can't remember where though, a magically enchanted scribing desk that can writing in up to 4 colors, and can produce a lot of pagers per day. It cannot replicate magical texts (scrolls and spellbooks). If I'm not imagining things, it seems like a very Eberron-y thing to have. At least by any scribe guilds or whatnot. I think that was in the series of Clockwork Wonders posted on the official Eberron site.
WotC_Dave 07-10-07, 02:48 PM	It could be just an old-fashioned rudimentary printing press, too. There was no precursor advance in materials or anything that made the Gutenberg Bible possible--it could have happened centuries earlier or centuries later. (And in China, it did happen 400 years earlier.) I think the trickier question might be: How are they cranking out so much paper so fast? Medieval/Renaissance papermaking was pretty labor-intensive--enough so that the notion of paper as a disposable thing would be baffling. In the real world, we didn't get mass-produced paper products (including newspapers) until we got steam-driven paper-making machines. It's probably more fun, though, to just let newspapers be newspapers and let all that printing and papermaking happen behind the scenes. In any case, your specific answers to "How does the Korranberg Chronicle get made?" are unlikely to affect play at the table very much. --Dave.
okaynowa 07-10-07, 03:34 PM	I think the trickier question might be: How are they cranking out so much paper so fast? Option One: They aren't, because the actual amount of paper used is relatively small. Upper class subscribers get their issue in "hardcopy," but the masses queue up at public Chronicle boards where the latest broadsheet is tacked up for all to see. Option Two: They aren't, because the spell/widget that reproduces the copy can "overwrite" existing text. Old issues are collected, the wand is waved, and presto! They can reuse the page until it is beat up enough to warrant repulping. Option Three: As the man says, don't worry about it. :)
Vharuck 07-10-07, 04:13 PM	I'd say most copies are made of parchment, and that parchment is made of those gnomes who've crossed the Trust and "disappeared." But you didn't hear it from me.
Macrovore 07-10-07, 04:20 PM	I thought that's what the Zil food was. "IT'S PEOPLE!!!" or gnomes. Which don't technically count as people. :P
DBlizzard 07-10-07, 05:15 PM	It's probably more fun, though, to just let newspapers be newspapers and let all that printing and papermaking happen behind the scenes. In any case, your specific answers to "How does the Korranberg Chronicle get made?" are unlikely to affect play at the table very much. True. However, having a series of adventures with the PCs being associated with one of the major sheets is rich with ideas. In fact, Terry Pratchett wrote just such a book.
Cifer 07-10-07, 05:38 PM	True. However, having a series of adventures with the PCs being associated with one of the major sheets is rich with ideas. In fact, Terry Pratchett wrote just such a book. But then again, the idea of a changeling conman also has something... How about the following: There are vendors (the standard paperboys) who sell a one-page tabloid version. It's considered common courtesy to give back the paper so it can be erased and rewritten - that's what keeps the price down, after all. For those who want to read a little more, there's either the possibility of a private subscription or they can go to a gentlemen's club (probably even available in a ladies' version).
Loki5654 07-10-07, 06:11 PM	I think the trickier question might be: How are they cranking out so much paper so fast? --Dave. When printed periodicals first came onto the scene, House Sivis realized that while printing the words was easy (via a wondrous item called the amanuensis press), the real difficulty would be in controlling the supply of paper. It was decided that through a combination of an army of "collectors" (who earn an average of 1 crown for every 10 pages they turn in) and yet another wondrous item (the eraser, which uses the erase spell to clear the paper), they could use a process they dubbed "recycling" to dramatically reduce the strain on the somewhat lethargic paper mills.
Amaril 07-11-07, 01:41 PM	Mendingand prestidigitation work well enough for recycling paper. Creating paper is the more difficult process, but it should be no more complicated than making cloth in a world like Eberron.
Loki5654 07-11-07, 03:11 PM	Mendingand prestidigitation work well enough for recycling paper. When I was statting out the whole "recycler/printing press" in my head, I included those spells to mend and clean the paper.
Edymnion 07-12-07, 01:01 PM	Even without that, House Sivis makes what are basically automatic dictation pens that write down whatever you say. Get a hundred of those in one room with paper and ink, and just read out what you want the paper to say, and boom, by the time you're done you've got a hundred copies.
taski 07-13-07, 06:32 AM	I'm sure the gnomes could come up with a way to make tons of cheap paper. They have a high demand for it, and not just the Chronicle. Both the Library and Zilargo's bureaucratic rigmarole require a good deal of paper, not to mention House Sivis. To create this cheap paper, we do not need to resort to setting-skirting industrial paper presses. We can resort to that standard of Eberron hand-waving, the Eldritch Machine. As with all Eldritch Machines, our Zilargo Paper Forge should be sprinkled with a few flavorful prerequisites, such as perhaps the presence of a Marked Sivis operator and a manifest zone to Lammania (for the material, you see). With that out of the way, we have the opportunity for tension, and thus plot hooks. Perhaps the Ashbound take contention to the exploitation of pristine Lammania, and begin efforts to destroy the Paper Forge. Can our Heroes stop them before the Ashbound effectively rob Khorvairan citizens of their beloved Korranberg Chronicle? Find out in the next issue -- if there is one!
okaynowa 07-13-07, 08:13 AM	As with all Eldritch Machines, our Zilargo Paper Forge should be sprinkled with a few flavorful prerequisites, such as perhaps the presence of a Marked Sivis operator and a manifest zone to Lammania (for the material, you see).Or it must be bathed in the light of the moon Rhaan. Isn't Rhaan the Scribe's Moon?
yossarius 07-16-07, 10:16 AM	Something I'm surprised to have not seen in this discussion is how this topic relates to the existance of major universities. Naturally, the Sharn Inquisitive and Korranberg Chronicle churn out more information than Morgrave, Arcanix and the Library, the schools have a higher need to retain their information. The sheer amount of written material in Khorvaire suggests to me that a) a simple method for making / recycling paper exists, and b) printing is also inexpensive. Personally, I would think that both methods of printing exist. I think a non-magical press would actually be more expensive, but would have the advantage that any commoner with a few ranks in Craft can work on it if it breaks down, which would not be true of the amanuensis press. Not to mention that the amanuensis press need an original to copy. A copy machine is of limited use if all your originals have to be painstakenly made by hand.
Loki5654 07-16-07, 01:31 PM	Not to mention that the amanuensis press need an original to copy. A copy machine is of limited use if all your originals have to be painstakenly made by hand. Not really, as Edy pointed out there are "dicta-pens" which could scribe the original in a very short time.
yossarius 07-16-07, 05:42 PM	Not really, as Edy pointed out there are "dicta-pens" which could scribe the original in a very short time. Which would work great if all your dealing with is text. Or if your text doesn't need to be formatted in any way. Can you command the dicta-pens to write in bold or italics? Can you command it set specific margins, type-face size, fonts, etc? How accurately can they draw an image as you describe it? I'm not saying those pens wouldn't be useful (obviously, they would be very useful). All I'm saying this that I tend to oppose magic replacing every possible mundane technology. The only reason 'magi-tech' should replace mechanical technology is that the magical version makes the mechanical version obsolete (or else it can do the job cheaper). I don't see that being the case here. I think there is room for both methods. To me, it would simply make sense for the industry in question to use each technology in a way they are best at. To compare it to our world, why computerize a machine that doesn't need computer control?
Amaril 07-16-07, 06:04 PM	Hmm... it seems to me that this conversation is almost parallel in sensibility (in terms of D&D) as the economics of a farmer purchasing or owning a horse.
yossarius 07-16-07, 07:25 PM	Agreed. Naturally, a plow that magically propells itself might seem attractive, and might actually be less expensive in the long run than the long-term care and maintainence of a plow horse. If, that is, the farmer in question has a few levels in artificer or magewright, or if he is able to procure the expertise of same below cost, which is far from impossible, on a case-by-case basis. That does not mean that a horseless plow is a good choise for EVERY FARMER. In fact, I think for the majority it would be a disaster. Spend some time on a family owned farm. Many of them use trucks that are 30 or more years old. Not because they can't afford new vehicles, but because the older trucks are easier to fix when they break down. No power anything, no computer control chips, no fuel injection. Everything is mechanical. It's simply more economical to use such a vehicle.
Loki5654 07-16-07, 07:49 PM	Which would work great if all your dealing with is text. Or if your text doesn't need to be formatted in any way. Can you command the dicta-pens to write in bold or italics? Can you command it set specific margins, type-face size, fonts, etc? How accurately can they draw an image as you describe it? The pen can do all that, if your DM allows. Seriously, my friend. D&D is like pointilism. If you stare at it too closely, you'll only see spots.
illathid 07-16-07, 08:08 PM	See the spell Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm). It will instantly turn a tree into several hundred reams of paper. Just have a wondrous item that can cast that several times per day and your set for paper.
JulesCARV 07-16-07, 08:29 PM	I saw an ad for a toothbrush with an onboard computer recently ("Oral-B Triumph"), which puzzled me. If you allow a necromancer to delegate command of a skeleton to another person, then skeletal horses could be a pretty good deal: 75 gp of onyx, 150 for the animate dead spell, and... oh, say 5 gp for the value of a horse skeleton (unsure -- maybe they're worth that much for glue or gelatin or the like, or maybe somewhat more or less). 230 gp for a horse that never needs to rest, always obeys, doesn't need to eat, etc: only a bit more than a regular heavy horse. Might be more practical for coaches than for farmers, though. Of course, the Blood of Vol might consider that to be a rather petty and mercantile use of their unholy power, and might not approve, and other widespread religions are unlikely to support it either. There's arcane necromancy, of course, but established religions might frown on it nonetheless, the Sovereign Host and Silver Flame because it's eeeevil, and the Blood of Vol because it takes away the special, sacred meaning of undeath and turns it into an industrial tool.
Edymnion 07-17-07, 01:06 PM	and the Blood of Vol because it takes away the special, sacred meaning of undeath and turns it into an industrial tool.Just for the record, the Blood of Vol does not see undead as holy, or even desirable. They worship the power of living blood, of life. Their end goal is immortality. They look on the undead champions of the faith as having made the greatest sacrifice possible, the loss of their life force and any hope for true immortality, in order to protect the church and it's followers. The Blood of Vol at the best sees undead (especially mindless undead) as making the best out of a bad situation, using the bodies of the fallen to aid them. In no circumstance does any normal BoV member ever want to be undead. If anything, the BoV is, IMO, the most likely source of undead HUNTERS in the setting. Setting out to destroy evil undead that prey on the life force of others, that kill and maim without thought or reason. The Blood of Vol is a very missunderstood religion.
Amaril 07-17-07, 02:43 PM	We're getting very off-topic with the BoV discussion, but I want to add to what Edy posted. The only write-up on the BoV that seems to indicate they desire to become undead is in Player's Guide to Eberron which explains that they desire to become undead to cheat death. This is in partial alignment with Faiths of Eberron's presentation which explains that divinity is in the blood and the evidence of such divine power can be seen in the mortality that the gods have placed on the common races to control that power. FoE also explains that those undead among their ranks are at the higher levels of their organization and have chosen undeath to provide continued support to the religion. Those individuals are respected out of pity and admiration rather than aspiration.
JulesCARV 07-17-07, 03:55 PM	I never claimed that the Blood of Vol regards death as a good thing, or something you'd really want to happen to you. I'm just saying that if you want to avoid having skeletal horses being common, it's reasonable that the Blood of Vol might regard commercialization of their unholy miracles to be sacreligious. Most Christians don't think being crucified would be a good thing, but that doesn't change that it has sacred meaning in Christianity.
Amaril 07-17-07, 04:10 PM	I don't think they look at undead with religious context, and masses of undead wouldn't be an issue to them in those regards. Skeletal horses aren't of any religious significance to Blood of Vol cultists.
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 10:28 AM	Perhaps you're right; I was thinking that some might prefer to keep undead in the Karrnathi military and not be an everyday part of Karrnathi society. If no one has any problems with a moderately prosperous Karrnathi farmer using a plow pulled by a skeletal heavy horse, then the Blood of Vol could provide "utility undead" for those who exhibit the right mix of piety and tithes to pay for the onyx.
Amaril 07-18-07, 10:34 AM	Eh, I just don't see Blood of Vol as having any sort of ownership of the idea of undead. If a farmer were to use an undead horse for whatever reason, it would be more socially strange than anything else. Blood of Vol is a religion that focuses on divine power within the living body. It doesn't care how others are using undead, especially mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 08:28 PM	Not to mention it wasn't the Blood of Vol that provided most of Karnnath's undead. Its true that it was the BoV that started it, but it was state necromancers that did the bulk of the work creating undead, most likely arcane casters. Remember, Animated Dead is not just a divine miracle, any wizard or sorcerer can do the same thing, and I honestly don't see the BoV getting up in arms over someone else making undead. Like I said, if anything, they would be getting up in arms to stop the killing of innocents to make undead out of, with the actual raising part being a non-issue. You know, like if someone mugs somebody and then goes to buy lunch with the money. The cops don't care that he was buying lunch, they care that he mugged somebody. Same thing here, IMO.
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 08:42 PM	*shrugs* Fine. Given the affordability, practicality, and moderate level of animate dead, this will mean that there will be a lot of skeletal heavy horses pulling plows in Karrnath, and possibly in other places (Thrane and the Eldeen Reaches almost certainly wouldn't use skeletal plowhorses, but Aundair, Breland, Zilargo, etc, might.). That definitely makes an interesting aspect to the setting, but given that the only socially acceptable undead mentioned are either Karrnathi undead or upper-echelon Blood of Vol members, I assumed that that wasn't the case by default.
DBlizzard 08-16-07, 07:54 PM	Just a note, there is a printing press that makes an appearance in "Quoth the Raven" in the last issue of Dungeon