Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 02-07-06, 04:54 AM	I read a Dragonshards article which talked about how Silver Flamers freely associate with people following the Path of Light and the Sovereign Host (though they may find SHers a bit too undisciplined and lackadaisacal). I'm wondering, does the Church know that in the Adar/Riedra Kalashtar/Inspired conflict, that the Adar/Kalashtar are the good guys, and the Riedrans/Inspired are bad (well... not Riedrans in general, but their government)? If so, how does this mesh with the good reputation the Inspired have developed in helping Khorvaire recover from the Last War? Is it just Silver Flame faithful ranting about the evils of the Inspired, while everyone else in Khorvaire ignores them as sad, delusional fanatics? Does is spark debate throughout bars and coffeehouses, on just how much those Riedrans should REALLY be trusted? Are most people suspicious of the Riedrans in spite of all of the aid from Riedra, while a few people defend them? Or does the Church just keep its knowledge of the evils of the Inspired to itself, trying to work against the Dreaming Dark without discrediting itself by attacking such "obviously good" people as the Riedrans?
Charles Phipps 02-07-06, 05:41 AM	You're thinking too much outside of the box. The Kalashatar are Lawful Good, they act lawful good (if a bit strange), and are amongst the most moral and upstanding people on the planet Earth. Aside from some questionable quests, their soldiers are noble and bright knights against the Darkness. So, no, the majority of people that know Kalashatar don't think they're evil and vile people picking on those poor Riedrans. However, don't think that they necessarily BELIEVE the Kalashatar either. The Kalashatar when they are so inclined to reveal the true nature of the Riedrans are going to come off as no different from the people who say that the Aundarians are controlled by Pit Fiends from Hell while they eat babies. People in Cyre or Breland really do believe that sort of thing after all. Also, for all of the Riedrans efforts at covering up their darker nature. People ARE a bit suspicious of them. They accept their goods, aid, and wealth whenever possible but they're still secretive, elitist, and bizarre folk that are involved in a 1001 plots on a good day. The Quori are not as good as they think they are and while its more likely it'll be the Dragons of Argonessan or the Lords of Dust who stomp them rather than humans, they're wrong to think they have a big advantage as they think they do.
Rechan 02-07-06, 05:53 AM	I would say that if a Flamer became aware of the Inspired, they'd flip their lid. Since the Inspired are pretty much Posessing mortals, and you know how flamers are with influence of demons. :)
igotsmeakabob!! 02-07-06, 03:47 PM	Even if the Flame itself may be a caged demon :rolleyes: hehe. But I am a fan of the Silver Flame and the Path of Light. Much goodness stems from both. Then again the road to Khyber is paved with good intentions.
Kid SixXx 02-07-06, 07:37 PM	I prefer to look at that situation via the road of politics & laws, rather than pure alignment. Whether the nations of Khorvaire likes it or not, the Inspired are the legitimate rulers of Riedra, and as such, enjoy the fruits of their sovereignty. Like any other nation, the Riedrans pursues favorable diplomatic ties with other nations. The Inspired view the Kalashtar as fugitives at best, and insurgents stirring up trouble abroad at worst. Most likely, the Inspired view the harboring of the Kalashtar as a diplomatic sticking point, but probably don't press the matter. The Inspired probably smile and bite their tongues enough to earn the placement of an embassy in the capital cities of each major nation. From there, the Dreaming Dark has a base of operation to hunt the Kalashtar of Khovaire in secret. Kalahstar citizenship in Khovaire provides somewhat of a haven, but it is a double-edged sword. The Kalashtar have to be careful when they take the initiative in the war, as assassination attempts or armed confrontations with the Inspired in plain view could be considered violations of law (ie. assault, murder) & could cause an international incident. Personally, I don't see that much in common philosophically between the Church of the Silver Flame & the Path of Light that leads me to believe that the Thranish government would be particularly amicable towards the Kalashtar. While both schools of thought are more or less LG in persuasion, the PoL is a contemplative & relatively non-violent religion, while the SF church is confrontational in the extreme & has been in more than its fair share of jihads. The Kalashtar are used to being persecuted, while the SF church are used to being the persecutors (ie. the Purges). If the Thranish government freely associates with the SHers or with the Kalashtar, it is most likely in the spirit of seeing SHers or Kalashtar as potential converts, and not much else, IMO. Meanwhile, the Kalashtar & the Inspired keep their true natures shrouded from enemies and allies alike.
Belabras 02-07-06, 08:33 PM	Another point of difference - The Silver Flame is extremely proactive, up to and past the point of coopting the government of Thrane to insure their priorities are given first consideration. They aren't shy about taking that battle into places where they are not wanted or needed either. The Kalashtar and the Path of Light, on the other hand, believe for the most part that all they have to do to bring about the change of Dalquor is concerted meditation. But for a minority of Atavists and firebrands the Kalashtar as a people believe that they are fighting their war simply by continuing in a life of contemplation. The Inspired are so paranoid about even the possibility that the Kalashtar might be right that they do everything but overt action to wipe the Kalashtar out. I think a believer in the Flame would certainly take up the plight of the Kalashtar if they were made aware of it. I also think that if they asked the Kalashtar, the likely response would be "thanks but no thanks." The Kalashtar think they are winning, and they aren't looking for help.
Edymnion 02-07-06, 10:04 PM	Even if the Flame itself may be a caged demon :rolleyes: hehe.Nope, the Silver Flame caged a demon, it is not the caged demon itself. The Silver Flame has existed since at least the end of the Age of Demons, and most likely for all of Eberronian existance. The visible flame at Flamekeep is only an incarnation/avatar of the true Flame. But, we also know that the Path of Light doesn't have to be only a Kalashtar thing. Its essentially meditation that anyone can follow, and it focuses on both peaceful thought and readiness to fight the encroaching darkness. The Silver Flame can know about the religion without having to know about the quori (the good ones or the bad ones), and can respect it.
Capfalcon 02-07-06, 10:15 PM	First, if you are refering to the Worshipers of the Silver Flame or the Silver Flame in the basement at Flamekeep? For the former, I would say yes and no. I understand that the Inspired have everyone convinced that they are the the nice benevolent people from far, far away. But, anyone who has been with a Kalthasar any length of time probably noticed that they arn't the evil demons that the inspired say they are. For the latter, I would guess that it is probably a yes. The thing is arguably the most "real" deity in the world, (almost no one knows about Vol and most of the five nations don't understand the undying). The Kalashtar and the Path of Light, on the other hand, believe for the most part that all they have to do to bring about the change of Dalquor is concerted meditation. But for a minority of Atavists and firebrands the Kalashtar as a people believe that they are fighting their war simply by continuing in a life of contemplation. The Inspired are so paranoid about even the possibility that the Kalashtar might be right that they do everything but overt action to wipe the Kalashtar out. Just to nitpick, I think the Kalashtar would argue that the Path of Light is quite active. After all, it is going to make the next incarnation of reality good.
JulesCARV 02-07-06, 11:00 PM	Thanks. Seems sensible enough, as far as people knowing that the kalashtar are okay but not taking their political views as gospel.
Kid SixXx 02-08-06, 05:51 AM	Just to nitpick, I think the Kalashtar would argue that the Path of Light is quite active. After all, it is going to make the next incarnation of reality good. I disagree with this nitpick a bit. I would substitute "effective" instead of "active." The minority of Kalashtar that prefer armed struggle enjoy the direct results of warfare (ie. one less Inspired vessel or possessed humanoid around to cause trouble). These Kalashtar cannot see the forrest for the trees. It is a Catch-22. Ultimately, if the meditations of the contemplative Kalashtar bring about il-Yannah, the power of the Inspired will be automatically broken. However, the endstate of il-Yannah is dependant on whether or not the Kalahstar survive long enough to bring it about. Meditation may change the core of Dal Quor, but it will not shore up the defenses of Adar to withstand continued sieges from Riedra. If the Kalahstar are to bring about il-Yannah, then some Kalahstar must physically fight in the material world in order to buy more time for others to meditate on the future. The Silver Flame can know about the religion without having to know about the quori (the good ones or the bad ones), and can respect it. I tend to agree, although I'd further say that SF respect for the PoL religion would tend to wane to "grudging respect / friendly attempt at conversion" the closer the coversation got to the Thranish border. ;) I think, however, that all bets would be off should the SF church discover the true nature of Kalashtar & the Inspired. Should the Keeper deem that "anyone with a soul co-opted by the Quori are suspect," then the Kalashtar would be the new "werebears" in the jihad against the Inspired and their ilk. Current politics & military might not withstanding, naturally. The Thranes always seem to be up for a fight, but I think even they are wise enough not to give Riedra an excuse for an all-out invasion of Khorvaire.
Korhal_IV 02-08-06, 02:13 PM	Current politics & military might not withstanding, naturally. The Thranes always seem to be up for a fight, but I think even they are wise enough not to give Riedra an excuse for an all-out invasion of Khorvaire. This seems a rather off statement. You're assuming a) the Thranes think in terms of a unified Khorvaire, b) the Riedrans could plausibly stomp on Karrnath or the Principalities because of an insult given by Thrane. Considering the huge logistical difficulties involved in Riedra actually attacking Thrane, I don't think that Thrane's more militant leaders would have a problem booting out or arresting the Riedran embassy staff and declaring the entire nation persona non grata. I figure there's a few nations closer to Thrane than Riedra, so they might even have a nice ripple effect across the Five Nations. Riedra is not up to conquering Khorvaire. If they were, they'd've probably tried it already. Subtle manipulation is what they're good at - the closest personification of Riedra could probably be an evil bard. A useful friend, very charming, wraps your mind around his little finger, but he can't fight worth crap. Plus, remember that Riedra has had many, many years of ostensible peace. Khorvaire just emerged from a hundred year war. In a fight, I'd give Khorvairian units the edge. They're grizzled and deadly.
Titanic Ego 02-08-06, 02:50 PM	Something everyone seems to be forgetting is that the Path of Light is NOT GOOD, BUT LAWFUL NEUTRAL. (See the ECS.) That's a pretty fundamental difference between the two faiths.
Siran Dunmorgan 02-08-06, 03:59 PM	The Thranes always seem to be up for a fight, but I think even they are wise enough not to give Riedra an excuse for an all-out invasion of Khorvaire. Riedra has no plans for an all-out invasion of Khorvaire, nor do they require any. Remember: any plan of the Quori masters of the Inspired that takes less than a hundred years to come to fruition is the Quori equivalent of doing a crossword puzzle over one's morning coffee: something to relax and kill time with while exercising one's intellect and cleverness, but not really important in the grand scheme of things. We have not-so-subtle hints from Five Nations that the Quori were responsible for the Last War. They don't need to invade Khorvaire if they can, in essence, have Khorvaire invade itself. Assuming that the Church, as an institution, were to become aware that the Inspired were in fact evil outsiders possessing human or semi-human hosts, then, yes, they'd add them to the index of known threats. Would it be a call for a new crusade? Possibly, depending on circumstances. Unfortunately for the Church, most of the hierarchy requires sleep on a regular basis, and that makes them potential targets for dream and nightmare effects. I suspect that we would see a dramatic rise in the number elves in the hierarchy if this became an issue, not to mention setting up magical barriers such as infusing the walls of the sleeping chambers of the hierarchy with spells that render the sleeper less susceptible to mind-affecting spells and effects. This could, in turn, lead to an interesting campaign on the part of the Dreaming Dark to subvert the hierarchy with less sophisticated means: getting the arch-priest drunk, for example, thereby impairing his judgement and possibly getting him to fall asleep outside the warded chambers, or having decorated his young new lady friend with the amulet that rendered him immune to dreams. With respect to the Silver Flame itself, I suspect that the founders of the Silver Flame were aware of the potential of the Quori to become a threat[1], but considered the Rajahs the more imminent danger, and acted accordingly. I've said elsewhere that the principal day-to-day activity of the Church of the Silver Flame is the denial of Hell, i.e., seeing to it that the things bound in Khyber by the Silver Flame stay bound, rather than coming free to the surface of Eberron in a Second Age of Demons. In order to assist in this process, the Church has a secondary interest in preventing the disfigurement of souls[2], since, apparently, a soul that is not free to choose an alignment cannot join the Flame. This latter, by the way, was the issue with the lycanthrope Purge. With respect to the Inspired, the Kalashtar, and the Quori, the Church is most likely to hold that the Quori generally are evil outsiders—fiends, by definition—and therefore a potential threat. Further, their possession of semi-human hosts constitutes disfigurment, and is therefore anathema; those hosts found to willingly submit to Quori possession will probably be offered the opportunity to recant their position. Those who elect not to recant—given the Church's current precedents—will most likely suffer death or exile. In this case, exile implies physical exile in Dal Quor.[3] Sad, if for no other reason than that the time differential means that someone in Dal Quor for only a relatively short time will grow old and die there, and leave only memories in the real world. Unless, of course, one becomes undead on Dal Quor, in which case one has the plot of the Nightmare on Elm Street films. By and large, the Church might consider mounting a crusade against the Inspired, and then discard the idea as impractical for the short term, but they would certainly oppose any overt—and many covert—activities of the Quori on Khorvaire, were they aware—as an institution—of the danger. The kalashtar, by comparison, would be examined, certainly, but since the fusion of the human and quori soul is so complete, it might not be considered a disfigurement. The group on Khorvaire that would be most concerned about the Inspired is the Gatekeepers: planar invasions are what they were founded to prevent. They've been pretty much devoted to picking up after the mess left by the last one, but it may be time for them to turn their attention to the quori as well. Mmm... a reason for a druid/psion multi-class character... :plotting: —Siran Dunmorgan [1] In my campaign, I play couatl, as well as mind flayers, with the psionic option. Hellcow has suggested that one of the reasons for the Quori—kalashtar and traditional quori alike— finding Sarlona more to their liking than other parts of Eberron is that there are extensive deposits of psionically resonant deep crystal in Khyber below Sarlona. It has also been said that the couatl originated on Sarlona, before moving much of their population to Xen'drik; playing them as psionic creatures therefore makes a certain level of sense. [2] I'm skipping the whole "what is the soul?" argument here and using the term in its popular sense. I'd like to ask that we don't get bogged down in definitional arguments. [3] Yes, even with the damage done by the Giants, there are still ways to get physically to Dal Quor. It simply doesn't become coterminous nor does it apparently have any manifest zones, but plane shift to the Astral Plane and travelling physicall from there should work quite well. Also, frighteningly, the nomad power dream travel should serve much the same purpose. More easily, there's that eldritch machine in Arcanix...
Kid SixXx 02-08-06, 04:01 PM	This seems a rather off statement. You're assuming a) the Thranes think in terms of a unified Khorvaire, b) the Riedrans could plausibly stomp on Karrnath or the Principalities because of an insult given by Thrane. I concur. I think folks are taking my hypothetical too much to heart. As mentioned before, my scenario does not portray the politics of the day: it merely draws parallels between the Purges & the line of logic the Thranes might follow should the Keeper of the Flame deem by some wild happenstance that Quori possession was as damnable a spirtual taint as lycanthrope was deemed to be. Such an edict might place the Kalashtar on the same firing line as the Inspired, should it ever come to light (pardon the unintentional pun) that the Inspired & Kalashtar both share the characteristic of having some sort of spirtual tie with the Quori. The Inspired being the extreme in this case, as they are more than just possessed: they are actual vessels for Quori manipulation.
Euangelion 02-08-06, 04:49 PM	A couple of things to keep in mind: 1.) The Shulassakar Dragonshards article states that they are aware of the danger that the DD represents. Thus it is logical to assume that the entity of the Silver Flame is also aware of the DD. However, it may regard the LoD as a greater threat than the DD. And it's not like the Shulassakar think that the lesser races have any business trying to deal with the problem. 2.) There are kalashtar among the Church of the Silver Flame, as the illustration in PGtE reveals. Certainly they know of the danger, but probably don't go around talking about it much, preferring to lead others to conclude on their own that there is something seriously wrong with the Inspired Riedrans. This may take longer, but the kalashtar do have a bit of a credibility problem in general, so it's more effective to let others figure it out on their own rather than spouting strange conspiracy theories. 3.) Any Exorcist of the Silver Flame worth their salt will be able to determine that the connection between the quori spirit and the kalashtar is much different than the relationship between a possessed empty vessel (oxymoron?) and the quori possessing it, so I don't think that'll be a problem. 4.) I don't think that by and large the leadership of the Silver Flame has much to worry about from their dreams. I see no reason (demographically or otherwise) why most, but certainly the largest and most important, Silver Flame temples, shrines and other structures are not protected by a hallow spell, which should perfectly protect those sleeping within (if I understand the benefits granted by protection from evil correctly). In other words, you can be sure that the DD will never touch the dreams of the Keeper of the Flame, if not the majority of the leadership of the theocracy.
Kid SixXx 02-08-06, 05:27 PM	3.) Any Exorcist of the Silver Flame worth their salt will be able to determine that the connection between the quori spirit and the kalashtar is much different than the relationship between a possessed empty vessel (oxymoron?) and the quori possessing it, so I don't think that'll be a problem. I suppose that's possible, but the "lump all things together" stand taken by the Church during the Purges makes me tend to think otherwise. If the church took the "a Lycanthrope is a Lyrcanthrope" position during the Purges, what is there to realistically cause someone to believe that the SF Church will be more discerning when it comes to making conclusions concering the otherworldly influence of the Quori in relation to Kalashtar & the Inspired. It probably depends on how the church defines the Quori spiritual relationship with the host, as Siran has pointed out. Perhaps I am being too pessimistic, and the SF church might not repeat the mistakes of the Purges in relation to Quori influence, but I doubt it.
The Dreaming Duck 02-08-06, 06:44 PM	As my handle indicates, I have a certain bias on this matter, but that in mind, a few things to consider. The vast majority of Inspired and other non-kalashtar hosts are willing and enthusiastic participants in the process. I agree with Siran's assertion that the SF might still consider this "damage", just as they considered all forms of lycanthropy to be damage regardless of the alignment of the strain. But ethically, it's a very different situation from a fiend that possesses an unwilling victim. There's a significant difference between "The Inspired" and "The Dreaming Dark". Essentially, you're dealing with a government on the one hand and a terrorist organization that has difficult to prove connections to that government on the other. It's been noted in multiple places that the Inspired ambassadors AREN'T actively involved in evil schemes: they are, in fact, ambassadors. The scheme of the Inspired centers on establishing a stagnant, peaceful world under their control. The Dreaming Dark are engaged in sinister actions... but with most of the Inspired, there's nothing evil to point to. They are providing material aid to the nations of Khorvaire to build up good will. That's just good diplomatic sense, if they have the resources to spare... it's not EEEVIL! In terms of Riedra attacking Khorvaire, I agree with Siran that it's not the way the Inspired work. We know that with Sarlona, they got the kingdoms of the nation to virtually destroy themselves in a 200-year period of civil war before stepping in to "save" people. There's every reason to think that they are doing the same thing in Khorvaire right now. They don't need to engage in conquest, and they don't want to: they want to be able to step in as saviors after YOU destroy yourself. Of course, if they HAD to, don't underestimate the power of the Inspired in swift motion. Aside from garrisons in Q'barra, Hellcow has said that Riedra has at least a handful of nomads capable of manifesting psionic teleportation circle, which could allow swift mobilization of troops. Through Dal Quor, the Inspired officers have remarkable communication abilities, superior even to those offered by Sivis. They have the resources of a continent. And they HAVE been at war as well: the army has been engaged in a continuing siege against the kalashtar and battles with the dromites, so it's not as if the Riedran troops have no combat experience... and meanwhile, DD telepaths would be exploiting the fears and prejudices of the people of the Five Nations (probably convincing them that the Riedran invasion had been called for by at least one of the other nations, creating internal dissent). I don't think it would be easy for the Inspired to invade Khorvaire by force, and I think it's the last thing they'd want to do. But if they did try it, I think it would be an ugly battle for everyone involved. And as a final note on that point, I DON'T think the Inspired would ever unilaterally attack Khorvaire... I think they'd find a way to get someone to invite them in. Aurala was already mentioned as an example, "inspired by dreams of a Galifar united under her rule with Riedran aid." This would give such an action legitimacy and give the Riedrans a staging area within Khorvaire. So I see the issue as less "If I make an enemy of the Riedrans, they may attack me" and more "If I make an enemy of the Riedrans, they may ally with my other enemies." Just a few thoughts. Silver Flame temples, shrines and other structures are not protected by a hallow spell, which should perfectly protect those sleeping within (if I understand the benefits granted by protection from evil correctly). I'm not sure I follow. Protection from Evil says... Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. As far as I can see it, neither nightmare or dream are compulsion or charm effects, and they do not attempt to exert control over the target: they are subtle effects, not direct control. And even with mind seed, it sounds to me as if you could still target someone with mind seed on hallowed ground... it just wouldn't take effect until they left that ground. And it wouldn't prevent an Inspired or willing quori host from entering hallowed ground. Am I missing something? On the overall question, I think it's a matter of clear and present threat. The Silver Flame has many battles to fight. If they encounter a Dreaming Dark scheme, I'm sure they'll bust it up. But again, big difference between Riedra/the Inspired and the Dreaming Dark... and if you don't think Riedra could invade Khorvaire, do you really think Thrane - far smaller, weakened from war, with enemies all around - could support some kind of crusade against Riedra? Even grabbing Inspired ambsassadors and exorcising them will simply insult the ambassadors (who will reclaim their spirits as soon as possible) and potentially result in the Inspired a) cutting off any rebuilding aid they are providing and b) allying with a nation like Karrnath or Aundair to take retaliatory action against Thrane. I think the Church would take the concerns of kalashtar seriously, watch for danger, and take action when they found it... but I don't think they'd launch a preemptive strike against Riedra, and I'm not convinced they'd attribute the evil of the Dreaming Dark to all Riedrans/Inspired.
Euangelion 02-08-06, 08:21 PM	I'm not sure I follow... Am I missing something? Just this: Dream Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting] and this: Nightmare Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting, Evil] Does "phantasm" fit under "mental control?" Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells. I would say "yes," since it controls the target's mind, creating a mental image. Edit: keep in mind ( ;) ) that it says "including enchantment (charm)..." not "limited to enchantment (charm)..." or words to that effect. I think the wording of protection from evil is meant to include certain spells and effects other than just from the enchantment subschool. Edit:Edit: also the duration of mind seed is instantaneous. The moment it's blocked, it's over. No implantation, no germination.
The Dreaming Duck 02-08-06, 11:35 PM	Does "phantasm" fit under "mental control?" I would say "yes," since it controls the target's mind, creating a mental image. I would say "no." Dream isn't even a hostile effect. By the PHB, enchantment spells "influence or control behavior", while illusions "deceive the mind of others." Compulsions and charms are specifically mentioned under PfE, and it would have been easy enough to mention phantasms as well. I understand your interpretation, but personally I wouldn't run it this way. On the other hand, I agree with you on mind seed.
LuciferNietzsche 02-09-06, 11:19 PM	Seems to me that this issue is quite murky and resides completely in the purview of individual DMs with no clear call one way or the other. For the sake of continuity in story and flavor, I'd say that it does affect nightmare and dream. They're mind-affecting effects, rather than conventional illusions, and it seems that pretty much all mind-affecting effects get stopped, even fear effects. Besides, after all, things would be over pretty quick if they could get to anyone that easily. So, it obviously can't be allowed on account of the fact that it's a bad idea to let the bad guys win without a fight.