Does this work? Truly Infinite damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Does this work? Truly Infinite damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dutchmason
11-13-06, 11:29 AM Required Books: ECS, Dragonmarked, Tome of Battle, PHB
Optional: Unearthed Arcana for fastest effects

Race: Human
Flaw: Any, any

Class Fighter 3

Ftr 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Dragonmark (Any), Dragonmark Fist, Martial Study (Foehammer)

Q 1: Does dragonmark fist cause the additional damage from Forhammer to maximize?

Ftr 2: Martial Study (Revitalizing Strike)

Ftr 3: Martial Stance (Aura of Chaos ?)

If my reasoning is correct the Dragonmark Fist feat makes you do the maximum amount of damage possible for an unarmed strike, correct?

The martial stance says
While you are in this stance, your attacks have the potential to be utterly devestating. When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage dice that rolls its maximum amount (such as a result of a six on a d6). When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die is showing its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result.

So the maximum damage possible from this attack is limitless, therefore doing the maximum amount of damage for the result equals an infinite amount.

Comments?
Refutations?
Please tell me why I'm wrong other than "Rule 0".
Gladius_Lucix
11-13-06, 11:57 AM This might be more appropriate to the Character Optimization boards. You've also got one too many feats at first level, unless you have a flaw of some sort.
GreenWarlock
11-13-06, 12:11 PM Another thing is, technically none of the dice are showing the maximum value, as you aren't rolling dice for damage just maximizing it.
dutchmason
11-13-06, 01:12 PM It probably should go on the CO boards but i didn't know if any of them are familiar with the materials used.

The feat says you automatically do maximum damage with an unarmed strike and since the maximum here is infinite...
GreenWarlock
11-13-06, 01:34 PM but the maximun isn't infinite, the maximum is until you stop rolling the max damage on die rolls. I don't have my Dragonmarked book here so i will have to look the feat over when i get home but does the feat state anything about die rolls? i know it may jsut be semantics but it may be semantics with a reason. If the feat does maxiumim damage for an unarmed strike it does 4 plus str(this is standard human slugging someone) unless the feat actually says you are considereing to have rolled max for damage i wouldn't allow it.
dutchmason
11-13-06, 02:05 PM Cool, thanks for your opinion.

It says you do maximum damage for an unarmed strike, thats it verbatim. What Im really askin here is what is the maximum?

Is it the maximum possible?

Or is this like Maximize spell?
johnkretzer
11-13-06, 02:46 PM Required Books: ECS, Dragonmarked, Tome of Battle, PHB
Optional: Unearthed Arcana for fastest effects

Race: Human
Flaw: Any, any

Class Fighter 3

Ftr 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Dragonmark (Any), Dragonmark Fist, Martial Study (Foehammer)

Q 1: Does dragonmark fist cause the additional damage from Forhammer to maximize?

Ftr 2: Martial Study (Revitalizing Strike)

Ftr 3: Martial Stance (Aura of Chaos ?)

If my reasoning is correct the Dragonmark Fist feat makes you do the maximum amount of damage possible for an unarmed strike, correct?

The martial stance says

So the maximum damage possible from this attack is limitless, therefore doing the maximum amount of damage for the result equals an infinite amount.

Comments?
Refutations?
Please tell me why I'm wrong other than "Rule 0".

It say (the stance that you have roll). The dragonmark ability say you don't roll you just do max.
It is unclear but that is how it is intended to work I think.

At best you might get to roll the dice once(or more depending on the open endedness of it)
Just think what happens when you empower, maximize a fireball.
Meaning I am using both abilities. I do 1d4+4. With both abilities working I'll do 8+ 1d4(with the possiblities of the dice exploding.
DarkWarriorKarg
11-13-06, 02:47 PM It's like the maximize feat, I suppose.

1) Do maximum damage
2) Roll dice
3) if any die shows maximum value , go to 1
4) Total up damage.
SilentOne
11-13-06, 09:18 PM Ooooh, big rule ignored here.

how are you getting a 2nd and 3rd level maneuver at 1st IL? More importantly, how are you getting a 6th level stance at 1st IL? You'd need to be 22nd level to use Martial Stance to get this.

Remember, those feats still require you to meet the minimum IL for the maneuvers/stances, and your non-initiator classes give you +1/2 IL per level.

Now, looking at the ToB (something I think you forgot to do here, or whoever told you this combo, because you're breaking all sorts of basic rules), you'll see that Aura of Chaos says "When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage die that rolls it's maximum amount."

From what I've gathered from this thread so far, Dragonmark Fist maximizes your unarmed damage. Maximized means you don't roll, it just does the highest amount. Therefore, you're not rolling for damage, and thus can't get the maxmimum amount of any die (since none are being rolled), thus Aura of Chaos (remember, 6th level maneuver) doesn't trigger.

"Problem" solved.
Forged_Fury
11-14-06, 12:50 AM Ooooh, big rule ignored here.

how are you getting a 2nd and 3rd level maneuver at 1st IL? More importantly, how are you getting a 6th level stance at 1st IL? You'd need to be 22nd level to use Martial Stance to get this.

Remember, those feats still require you to meet the minimum IL for the maneuvers/stances, and your non-initiator classes give you +1/2 IL per level.
I'm not sure this is correct. I've got ToB open right now and am reading through the descriptions of the different sections. The language is not clear on this. The Martial Study feat description only mentions that you must meet the prerequisites for the maneuver. The prerequisites, however, appear to be knowledge of a certain number of other maneuvers in the same school, rather than class or level. Table 3-1, which describes the Highest-Level Maneuvers Known, based on the text that is reflective towards it, appears to only apply to Martial Adepts. In favor of this opinion, the Level section indicates the Martial Study feat allows one to take any manuever regardless of class, rather than class and level. It's kind of up in the air, although I am coming down on the side of the feat allowing one to learn any maneuver for which you meet the prerequsites (you've got to burn a hella lot of feats to get to the barn-burners).

-FF
GreenWarlock
11-15-06, 11:52 PM I cracked my dragonmarked and reread the feat it says something along the lines of

"you must decide to use this feat after you have successfully attacked but before you roll damage"

From that language i beleive it wouldn't work because you use the feat before any die are rolled
rampant
11-16-06, 12:07 AM Forged fury : The manuevers and stances have levels, you can't learn a manuever or stance that exceeds the maximum level you can learn. (page 39) A person without actual levels as a martial adept is considered to be an initiator of half their character level for the martial study feats. It would be easier to actually take levels as an adept, less feats needed and earlier access.

Back on topic, no this tactic would not work because you actually have to get an actual dice to come up maxed. Using an ability that negates the need of the dice roll cuts off the stance ability.
Chimaera2000
11-22-06, 01:05 PM Remember, those feats still require you to meet the minimum IL for the maneuvers/stances, and your non-initiator classes give you +1/2 IL per level.
I'm not sure this is correct. I've got ToB open right now and am reading through the descriptions of the different sections. The language is not clear on this. The Martial Study feat description only mentions that you must meet the prerequisites for the maneuver. The prerequisites, however, appear to be knowledge of a certain number of other maneuvers in the same school, rather than class or level. Table 3-1, which describes the Highest-Level Maneuvers Known, based on the text that is reflective towards it, appears to only apply to Martial Adepts. In favor of this opinion, the Level section indicates the Martial Study feat allows one to take any manuever regardless of class, rather than class and level. It's kind of up in the air, although I am coming down on the side of the feat allowing one to learn any maneuver for which you meet the prerequsites (you've got to burn a hella lot of feats to get to the barn-burners).

-FF

I admit that the language is unclear, but I believe that you do have to have the appropriate initiator level with Martial Study. My reason? If we say that you only need to have the prerequisite number of feats, you can get Mountain Tombstone Strike (the Stone Dragon capstone) at 1st level. Likewise, one could take one level of Crusader and Martial Study and get Strike of Righteous Vitality at 1st level. Somehow, I don't imagine that PC's were supposed to be tossing around 2d6 Constitution damage or heals right out of the gate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dutchmason 11-13-06, 11:29 AM	Required Books: ECS, Dragonmarked, Tome of Battle, PHB Optional: Unearthed Arcana for fastest effects Race: Human Flaw: Any, any Class Fighter 3 Ftr 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Dragonmark (Any), Dragonmark Fist, Martial Study (Foehammer) Q 1: Does dragonmark fist cause the additional damage from Forhammer to maximize? Ftr 2: Martial Study (Revitalizing Strike) Ftr 3: Martial Stance (Aura of Chaos ?) If my reasoning is correct the Dragonmark Fist feat makes you do the maximum amount of damage possible for an unarmed strike, correct? The martial stance says While you are in this stance, your attacks have the potential to be utterly devestating. When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage dice that rolls its maximum amount (such as a result of a six on a d6). When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die is showing its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result. So the maximum damage possible from this attack is limitless, therefore doing the maximum amount of damage for the result equals an infinite amount. Comments? Refutations? Please tell me why I'm wrong other than "Rule 0".
Gladius_Lucix 11-13-06, 11:57 AM	This might be more appropriate to the Character Optimization boards. You've also got one too many feats at first level, unless you have a flaw of some sort.
GreenWarlock 11-13-06, 12:11 PM	Another thing is, technically none of the dice are showing the maximum value, as you aren't rolling dice for damage just maximizing it.
dutchmason 11-13-06, 01:12 PM	It probably should go on the CO boards but i didn't know if any of them are familiar with the materials used. The feat says you automatically do maximum damage with an unarmed strike and since the maximum here is infinite...
GreenWarlock 11-13-06, 01:34 PM	but the maximun isn't infinite, the maximum is until you stop rolling the max damage on die rolls. I don't have my Dragonmarked book here so i will have to look the feat over when i get home but does the feat state anything about die rolls? i know it may jsut be semantics but it may be semantics with a reason. If the feat does maxiumim damage for an unarmed strike it does 4 plus str(this is standard human slugging someone) unless the feat actually says you are considereing to have rolled max for damage i wouldn't allow it.
dutchmason 11-13-06, 02:05 PM	Cool, thanks for your opinion. It says you do maximum damage for an unarmed strike, thats it verbatim. What Im really askin here is what is the maximum? Is it the maximum possible? Or is this like Maximize spell?
johnkretzer 11-13-06, 02:46 PM	Required Books: ECS, Dragonmarked, Tome of Battle, PHB Optional: Unearthed Arcana for fastest effects Race: Human Flaw: Any, any Class Fighter 3 Ftr 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Dragonmark (Any), Dragonmark Fist, Martial Study (Foehammer) Q 1: Does dragonmark fist cause the additional damage from Forhammer to maximize? Ftr 2: Martial Study (Revitalizing Strike) Ftr 3: Martial Stance (Aura of Chaos ?) If my reasoning is correct the Dragonmark Fist feat makes you do the maximum amount of damage possible for an unarmed strike, correct? The martial stance says So the maximum damage possible from this attack is limitless, therefore doing the maximum amount of damage for the result equals an infinite amount. Comments? Refutations? Please tell me why I'm wrong other than "Rule 0". It say (the stance that you have roll). The dragonmark ability say you don't roll you just do max. It is unclear but that is how it is intended to work I think. At best you might get to roll the dice once(or more depending on the open endedness of it) Just think what happens when you empower, maximize a fireball. Meaning I am using both abilities. I do 1d4+4. With both abilities working I'll do 8+ 1d4(with the possiblities of the dice exploding.
DarkWarriorKarg 11-13-06, 02:47 PM	It's like the maximize feat, I suppose. 1) Do maximum damage 2) Roll dice 3) if any die shows maximum value , go to 1 4) Total up damage.
SilentOne 11-13-06, 09:18 PM	Ooooh, big rule ignored here. how are you getting a 2nd and 3rd level maneuver at 1st IL? More importantly, how are you getting a 6th level stance at 1st IL? You'd need to be 22nd level to use Martial Stance to get this. Remember, those feats still require you to meet the minimum IL for the maneuvers/stances, and your non-initiator classes give you +1/2 IL per level. Now, looking at the ToB (something I think you forgot to do here, or whoever told you this combo, because you're breaking all sorts of basic rules), you'll see that Aura of Chaos says "When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage die that rolls it's maximum amount." From what I've gathered from this thread so far, Dragonmark Fist maximizes your unarmed damage. Maximized means you don't roll, it just does the highest amount. Therefore, you're not rolling for damage, and thus can't get the maxmimum amount of any die (since none are being rolled), thus Aura of Chaos (remember, 6th level maneuver) doesn't trigger. "Problem" solved.
Forged_Fury 11-14-06, 12:50 AM	Ooooh, big rule ignored here. how are you getting a 2nd and 3rd level maneuver at 1st IL? More importantly, how are you getting a 6th level stance at 1st IL? You'd need to be 22nd level to use Martial Stance to get this. Remember, those feats still require you to meet the minimum IL for the maneuvers/stances, and your non-initiator classes give you +1/2 IL per level. I'm not sure this is correct. I've got ToB open right now and am reading through the descriptions of the different sections. The language is not clear on this. The Martial Study feat description only mentions that you must meet the prerequisites for the maneuver. The prerequisites, however, appear to be knowledge of a certain number of other maneuvers in the same school, rather than class or level. Table 3-1, which describes the Highest-Level Maneuvers Known, based on the text that is reflective towards it, appears to only apply to Martial Adepts. In favor of this opinion, the Level section indicates the Martial Study feat allows one to take any manuever regardless of class, rather than class and level. It's kind of up in the air, although I am coming down on the side of the feat allowing one to learn any maneuver for which you meet the prerequsites (you've got to burn a hella lot of feats to get to the barn-burners). -FF
GreenWarlock 11-15-06, 11:52 PM	I cracked my dragonmarked and reread the feat it says something along the lines of "you must decide to use this feat after you have successfully attacked but before you roll damage" From that language i beleive it wouldn't work because you use the feat before any die are rolled
rampant 11-16-06, 12:07 AM	Forged fury : The manuevers and stances have levels, you can't learn a manuever or stance that exceeds the maximum level you can learn. (page 39) A person without actual levels as a martial adept is considered to be an initiator of half their character level for the martial study feats. It would be easier to actually take levels as an adept, less feats needed and earlier access. Back on topic, no this tactic would not work because you actually have to get an actual dice to come up maxed. Using an ability that negates the need of the dice roll cuts off the stance ability.
Chimaera2000 11-22-06, 01:05 PM	Remember, those feats still require you to meet the minimum IL for the maneuvers/stances, and your non-initiator classes give you +1/2 IL per level. I'm not sure this is correct. I've got ToB open right now and am reading through the descriptions of the different sections. The language is not clear on this. The Martial Study feat description only mentions that you must meet the prerequisites for the maneuver. The prerequisites, however, appear to be knowledge of a certain number of other maneuvers in the same school, rather than class or level. Table 3-1, which describes the Highest-Level Maneuvers Known, based on the text that is reflective towards it, appears to only apply to Martial Adepts. In favor of this opinion, the Level section indicates the Martial Study feat allows one to take any manuever regardless of class, rather than class and level. It's kind of up in the air, although I am coming down on the side of the feat allowing one to learn any maneuver for which you meet the prerequsites (you've got to burn a hella lot of feats to get to the barn-burners). -FF I admit that the language is unclear, but I believe that you do have to have the appropriate initiator level with Martial Study. My reason? If we say that you only need to have the prerequisite number of feats, you can get Mountain Tombstone Strike (the Stone Dragon capstone) at 1st level. Likewise, one could take one level of Crusader and Martial Study and get Strike of Righteous Vitality at 1st level. Somehow, I don't imagine that PC's were supposed to be tossing around 2d6 Constitution damage or heals right out of the gate.