Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark ir'Wynarn 07-07-05, 10:36 PM	I have been dming a new Eberron campaign and have a couple of nonhuman psionic characters playing. One of my players asked what would happen to their Dragon Marked character if she became an Elan. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Edymnion 07-07-05, 10:43 PM	Then they lose their ability to use the dragonmark, as they are no longer human. Just like Erandis d'Vol can no longer use her dragonmark because she is undead. Remember, no matter what else a Dragonmark may be, it is still just a feat. A feat with prereqs. Once you no longer meet the prereqs, you no longer are capable of benefiting from your feat until you again meet the prereqs. Like a Fighter not being able to Power Attack if his strength has been drained to less than 13.
Radkres 07-07-05, 10:50 PM	From my reading they would hand you their character and make a new one. Page 9 EPH They lose all class levels, skills, and other characteristics (Feats in my opinion) Also they stop being human in my opinion when they are remade into an Elans.
Edymnion 07-07-05, 10:59 PM	Yup, becoming an Elan means that they lose everything they had before, and have to start over being a lvl 1 character again. That includes losing their Dragonmark feat. And since the Elan is not eligible to take any of the dragonmarks, they couldn't get it back. The player DOES realize that becoming an elan basically means he wads up his character sheet and makes a new one at lvl 1, reguardless of what the rest of the party is at, yes?
Gurv 07-07-05, 11:05 PM	By the RAW, elan cannot have Dragonmarks. They are not humans, regardless of what they might have once been. Humans who become elan lose all skills, feats, and class abilities during the transformation, which would be another reason why they don't have dragonmarks: they lose the Dragonmark feat and thereafter do not qualify to take the feat again. Of course, you could make an exception. In that case, I would make it be a huge deal, not just something that could happen for no reason. Dragonmarks are part of the Prophecy, and when something strange happens to them, something is up. Another possibility is that a previously dragonmarked human who is transformed into an elan might retain the image on his flesh. It would be entirely powerless, little more than a tattoo. But a powerless dragonmark might itself be the spark for a character to begin adventuring. Imagine a human, wandering the Mournlands with no memory, whose only connection to his past is the dragonmark that covers his chest. But his mark manifests no power, and no one in the House recognizes him. The only clue to his identity is a portrait of him..a portrait which predates the beginning of the Last War by a century or more...
Dark ir'Wynarn 07-07-05, 11:06 PM	Thanks for the replies. I agree, The character should start over at first level and only keeps their looks and items.
Dark ir'Wynarn 07-07-05, 11:09 PM	Thanks Gurv. I like the idea of him retaining the dragon mark and it not functioning. Very clever.
MysticTheurge 07-08-05, 07:59 AM	From my reading they would hand you their character and make a new one. Page 9 EPH They lose all class levels, skills, and other characteristics (Feats in my opinion) Also they stop being human in my opinion when they are remade into an Elans. The psionics board has a few examples of other ways of becoming an Elan, including a PrC and I think maybe a template. I'd still say anything that changes your type from Humanoid[Appropriate Race] causes you to lose the use of your dragonmark, just like Erandis d'Vol did. Though like Vol I'd say the mark is still visible on the character, it just no longer functions. Hmm though that begs the question what about templates that simply add a type, or change it to Augmented Humanoid, while still keeping your original subtype? Are there such templates? I'll have to look.
Streamweaver 07-08-05, 09:07 AM	I'd agree with others here in saying they lose their ability to use the Dragonmark. I think the real question though rests on the other end. Would the Elan council ever choose someone who had a Dragonmark? I'd think not since strong ties created by a mark could cast doubt on their dedication and loyalty. I think you have a chance to make it even more interesting RP wise. Perhaps the character has to volentarily give up the dragonmark before undergoing the ritual transformation to Elan. This could prove interesting and make the transformation more than just a rules thing.
a_psh 07-08-05, 09:25 AM	Would the Elan council ever choose someone who had a Dragonmark? Depends on how you interpret the elan... how much of their old selves do they keep? The book says "basic" memories and the like, which, in my mind, is a bit vague. Do they retain full knowledge of their old lives, or are they like kalashtar, with half-remembered subconscious visions? This is a very important decision for a DM/player to make, as it defines a lot of the roleplaying aspects of the race: is becoming an elan chiefly a path to immortality for the dedicated, or a way to cleanse your mind and erase your past for the desperate?
cmanos 07-08-05, 10:13 AM	in Eberron, I would definitel not allow someone to 'become' an elan. If they want to play a psionic race, they can play a kalshtar. But thats my rules.
cmanos 07-08-05, 11:08 AM	how the heck did I get a double post
Streamweaver 07-08-05, 12:50 PM	I use a modified version of the Elan race in my campaign. Basically the Elan counsil was esablished by The Dragons of Argonessen shortly after The Inspired began to appear in Sarlona. They are a secret organization basically working against the Inspired under the direction of the Elan Counsil which is secretly under the control of The Dragons of Argonessen. So in my particular case they would never select a Dragonmarked individual because to them a Dragonmark means the Prophecy has different plans for that individual.
Naudachu 07-08-05, 01:27 PM	Jhonen Olain has some interesting things to say about Elans. Basically they are human prisons for now helpless quori spirits. Could be an interesting back story, but definitely more hunted than a kalashtar. http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/conversions-xph.html
Edymnion 07-08-05, 01:40 PM	Yup, thats the basic idea I used for my Elan character in Eberron. There is no council, there are only Kalashtar who know how to bind Quori into human prisons. And the human prison is capable of tapping into the Quori spirit to steal power from it, in the form of Psionic capabilities.
a_psh 07-08-05, 05:19 PM	With regard to the original question, it seems the consensus is definitely "keep the physical appearance of the mark, lose the abilities," which makes a lot of sense to me. And it's pretty obvious from this thread that no one can really agree on what to do with the elan in Eberron. They're pretty neat and I feel like they're probably worth including, but they do definitely fill the exact same role as kalashtar, more or less. So, if you do stick them in (I haven't yet; not sure whether I want to), it'll be because you want to, not because you need to. {Aside:} Personally, I feel that the whole quori prison thing is a bit silly, partially because I want to move psionics a little bit away from being solely tied to Dal Quor (and there's precedent for this, especially with regard to Xoriat). But that's really a topic for another thread.
Gishsarath 07-08-05, 05:28 PM	Although I really like the concept of Elans being Quori prisons, one has to look at the fact that they are technically considered "Aberrations". One way to interpret Elans is that perhaps they are to Xoriat what Kalashatar are to Dal Quor. Perhaps one of the Daelkyr discovered a way around it's imprisonment ... by infusing humans with portions of its alien essence and transforming them into Elans, it is able to subtly interact with the world around it. I don't know, I'm just shootin' in the dark here. Elans, being Aberrations, can take all those funky Aberrant feats and all.
ussie 07-08-05, 06:02 PM	Another possibility is that a previously dragonmarked human who is transformed into an elan might retain the image on his flesh. It would be entirely powerless, little more than a tattoo. But a powerless dragonmark might itself be the spark for a character to begin adventuring. Imagine a human, wandering the Mournlands with no memory, whose only connection to his past is the dragonmark that covers his chest. But his mark manifests no power, and no one in the House recognizes him. The only clue to his identity is a portrait of him..a portrait which predates the beginning of the Last War by a century or more... GASP thats my character....THIEF THIEF..kidding, great minds think alike in the campaign in which i play the elan, we dont know how exactly she got to be an elan, she just gained consciousness from the day of mourning as one, heck she didnt even know she was an elan until and ogre skewered her and sdhe healed thanks to her power points, tho it might be a daeklyr special agent plan since a couple of mind flayers ahve been spotted asking for the whereabouts of her.
DwarvinJedi 07-08-05, 07:40 PM	Although I really like the concept of Elans being Quori prisons, one has to look at the fact that they are technically considered "Aberrations". One way to interpret Elans is that perhaps they are to Xoriat what Kalashatar are to Dal Quor. That is actually really interesting, I am having trouble deciding betweeen Jhonny' s and your interpretations.
MysticTheurge 07-08-05, 08:09 PM	Although I really like the concept of Elans being Quori prisons, one has to look at the fact that they are technically considered "Aberrations". Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three. I don't see any problem with the Quori prison being considered an aberration. The elan in this case probably has "strange abilities" and "an alien mindset." I also like the RP possibilities that come from the "prison" concept.
Edymnion 07-08-05, 08:20 PM	I also like the RP possibilities that come from the "prison" concept.Yup, my Elan has decided that, while he cannot sit back and let the Dreaming Dark go unchallenged now that he knows EXACTLY how evil they can be, he can't afford to risk letting the one he holds bound loose either. So, he's got a nice hook. He wears the heaviest armor he can find, carries a large shield in one hand, and a buckler-axe (from Races of Stone, counts as a normal buckler and as a handaxe) in the other. His idea is that he isn't going to die because of his own lack of attention to his own defense. So, he tries to have the highest physical AC he can get. Which pretty much means he sucks at melee, what with his primary weapon doing 1d6 damage, but he makes for a very nice unhittable tank.
Gishsarath 07-08-05, 09:27 PM	I don't see any problem with the Quori prison being considered an aberration. The elan in this case probably has "strange abilities" and "an alien mindset." I also like the RP possibilities that come from the "prison" concept. I am not saying that the prison concept isn't good. I like it, it has a lot of flavor and what not. However, since nothing is canonical regarding Elans yet ... it isn't a big problem to explore other explanations for Elans within the Eberron world. I can see Elans as psionic "avatars" of the Daelkyr, working as infiltrators and spies among the Five Nations. They do, after all, resemble humans in almost everyway. They are sorta "stealth" aberrations. We do know that Xoriat is a source of Psionic power, so is it so far-fetched to believe that Elans are infused with the maddening energy of that plane? They only possess a small fraction of the Daelkyr's "mind/soul/whatever", and the other Elans can exist as gestalt entity. Perhaps the strange council of elans that choose who will be imbued with Psionic might are those Elans that share the strongest bond with their Xoriat master. Elans in this case are still free-willed, and the influence of the Daelkyr "mastermind" is reflected only as maddened whispers that subtly try and bend the Elan to its will. Thus, you can still have "good" Elans. Hey, its an idea. I'm not saying that the Quori Elans are not cool. I'm just trying to approach things at a different angle.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-09-05, 09:34 AM	I had an Elan character who had a dragonmark, though as people said, it was from his past life, and since he was no longer human it was useless. :P
a_psh 07-09-05, 11:46 AM	The problem with Aberrations is that they're definitionally just "weird stuff" without a real unifying concept. Eberron tries to remedy this by tying most of them to the daelkyr. As such, I would prefer a daelkyr-based justification rather than the "quori prison" deal, because I think that's where they naturally fit in (also, I would imagine a human mind holding a quori being more like a dedicated dreamer chained down somewhere to keep him from spasming and being given a constant stream of alchemical potions to keep him dreaming and strenghten his resolve than an eternal psionic entity walking around: quori are creatures of nightmare, and I believe containing one against its will should be impossible without it really ripping up your mind). Perhaps elans are like OA Taint Sorcerors, appearing human but having vile, strange, and twisted anatomy. (Though I wouldn't want them to be filled with puss or anything... I don't think of them as decaying.) Perhaps they are recent creations of one of the daelkyr, intended as spies and assassins. Though, given how the daelkyr work, it's equally likely that elans are merely the madness of Xoriat wrapped in human flesh without any real purpose... just there to be there. Perhaps they still operate the same way as described in the XPH, unknowingly spreading the taint of Xoriat as they create new elans. The aboleths serve as a good hook, too. Primordial, psionic, and knowledgeable, aboleths make pretty good creators for these things. I see elans as eternal servants, then, perhaps? Take the social structure described in the XPH, rip off the governing body, and place some aboleths at its head instead. Maybe aboleth psions and mages being wheeled around in giant tanks. This sort of begins to resemble the Spacing Guild &c. somewhat, but it's a cool image. Likewise, if there's anything aboleths have in spades (besides mucus and evil), it's patience, so the elan makes a lot of sense as a spy or similar favored servant for such a creature. Either way, the ritual of transformation definitely needs to be defined a lot more, and made a lot more terrifying and grisly. Sure, you turn into this immortal thing sustained by psychic power, but only after a daelkyr or aboleth reaches inside you and TWISTS something very, very hard. One little addition I like to make to the elan race is that they bleed differently (PCs have never requested one to date, and I haven't used it for an NPC). Not really a different texture or color or anything (I felt that was a bit too sci-fi cliched), just less. E.g. a small trickle from a wound that really should produce a violent spray. Makes them nicely alien in subtle ways, I think.
Gishsarath 07-09-05, 12:04 PM	The problem with Aberrations is that they're definitionally just "weird stuff" without a real unifying concept. Eberron tries to remedy this by tying most of them to the daelkyr. As such, I would prefer a daelkyr-based justification rather than the "quori prison" deal, because I think that's where they naturally fit in (also, I would imagine a human mind holding a quori being more like a dedicated dreamer chained down somewhere to keep him from spasming and being given a constant stream of alchemical potions to keep him dreaming and strenghten his resolve than an eternal psionic entity walking around: quori are creatures of nightmare, and I believe containing one against its will should be impossible without it really ripping up your mind). Perhaps elans are like OA Taint Sorcerors, appearing human but having vile, strange, and twisted anatomy. (Though I wouldn't want them to be filled with puss or anything... I don't think of them as decaying.) Perhaps they are recent creations of one of the daelkyr, intended as spies and assassins. Though, given how the daelkyr work, it's equally likely that elans are merely the madness of Xoriat wrapped in human flesh without any real purpose... just there to be there. Perhaps they still operate the same way as described in the XPH, unknowingly spreading the taint of Xoriat as they create new elans. The aboleths serve as a good hook, too. Primordial, psionic, and knowledgeable, aboleths make pretty good creators for these things. I see elans as eternal servants, then, perhaps? Take the social structure described in the XPH, rip off the governing body, and place some aboleths at its head instead. Maybe aboleth psions and mages being wheeled around in giant tanks. This sort of begins to resemble the Spacing Guild &c. somewhat, but it's a cool image. Likewise, if there's anything aboleths have in spades (besides mucus and evil), it's patience, so the elan makes a lot of sense as a spy or similar favored servant for such a creature. Either way, the ritual of transformation definitely needs to be defined a lot more, and made a lot more terrifying and grisly. Sure, you turn into this immortal thing sustained by psychic power, but only after a daelkyr or aboleth reaches inside you and TWISTS something very, very hard. One little addition I like to make to the elan race is that they bleed differently (PCs have never requested one to date, and I haven't used it for an NPC). Not really a different texture or color or anything (I felt that was a bit too sci-fi cliched), just less. E.g. a small trickle from a wound that really should produce a violent spray. Makes them nicely alien in subtle ways, I think. That is an excellent idea about the Elans being creations of the Aboleths. Better than the Daelkyr version, in my opinion. The daelkyr already have a host of creations, I say give the Aboleths Elans ... they could be a sort of "advanced skum".
a_psh 07-09-05, 11:41 PM	I also like the aboleth angle because, well, the recent article sets them up as parallels to the Lords of Dust, and I thought something was lacking: the Dusties can impersonate people, which is really powerful given just how much patience they have (a rakshasa can pretend to be a single person for 10 or 20 years just for the sake of one critical moment that it hopes to influence), and the aboleths don't have that ability. This is partially where eternal psionically-powered servants would make sense. Likewise, since they inherit their knowledge from each other, they'd probably want elite servitors who also didn't require any replacement or retraining. The elan is a perfect servant of an aboleth or an aboleth bloodline, in this case. I also think the idea of the aboleth basically cutting you open and doing something screwy to reshape your insides is great for an elan transformation. (Not all of them would be able to do it, certainly... this would be something for elite aboleths with a reasonable chunk of class levels to do, though.)